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Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 8:16 am
by BroJones
In the Book of Mormon, we find several instances where the righteous armed themselves and were commanded to fight, e.g. under Alma (early chapters) and under Captain Moroni (later chapters in Alma).
Also 3 Nephi where the people gathered together to defend themselves against the Gadiantons.
OTOH, yesterday a good friend said getting guns and practicing, etc, "attracts" trouble, and we should rather have great faith like Enoch and trust the Lord to fight our battles, using the priesthood. He also pointed to D&C 45 (end) where the wicked are afraid to attack the New Jerusalem.
While I don't agree with the so-called "law of attraction", which smacks of new-age, his question is a good one -- how much should we PERSONALLY arm ourselves, or NOT? Should we expect the Lord to defend us, if we don't arm ourselves? Do we have the right to defend ourselves individually, or do we wait for the Prophet to command us?
Did the early Saints arm themselves? (say 60 to 300 AD, also the pioneers...)
I think this merits serious discussion, before TEOTWAWKI.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 8:42 am
by BroJones
Chuck Baldwin, noted Christian and supporter of the Constitution, weighs in (but he lacks what the LDS have regarding Enoch):
A SUGGESTED SURVIVAL LIST
By Chuck Baldwin
December 15, 2009
NewsWithViews.com
One does not have to be a prophet to know that we are on the precipice of some potentially catastrophic—or at the very least, challenging—days. In fact, most of us are already in challenging days, and some are already enduring catastrophic events. That is, if one would call being out of work, losing one's home, facing life-threatening medical conditions without any prospect of medical insurance, several families being forced to live in one house due to homes being foreclosed, etc., catastrophic.
The potential for an escalation of cataclysmic events, however, is very real. Only a "blooming idiot" would call someone who attempts to prepare for "the day of adversity" a Chicken Little now. Anyone who does not see the storm clouds on the horizon isn't paying attention.
For example, can one imagine what would happen if terrorists nuked a major American city or cities? (Once again, I encourage readers to go get the videos of the CBS TV series "Jericho" to get an idea of how quickly life, and even civilization, could change.) Imagine if there was another 9/11-type event. What would happen if some form of Zimbabwe-style inflation hit the US? What would happen if anything disrupted the distribution of Welfare checks, or food to local grocers? Imagine a Hurricane Katrina-style natural disaster in your town. I think people everywhere are beginning to awaken to just how vulnerable we all really are.
As a result, people from virtually every walk of life have recently been asking my thoughts on how they should prepare. Therefore, I will attempt to share with my readers some of the counsel I have given these folks.
First, a disclaimer. I am not an economist; I am not a survival expert; I am not a firearms expert; I am not an attorney; I am not a physician. In fact, I am not an expert in anything! For several years, however, I have tried to learn from others. I am an avid reader. My work has allowed me to travel extensively. I have had the privilege of sitting at the feet of—and learning from—many of America's most learned, most trained, and most qualified "experts" in a variety of fields. What I write today, I have learned from others. I've formed my own opinions and priorities, of course, but everything I'm sharing has been said, or written about, before. But if I can share something in today's column that will help someone be better prepared for the days to come, then my goal will have been achieved.
Location:
First, analyze your living conditions. Where do you live? Do you live in an urban or rural environment? Is it a big city or small town? Do you live in an apartment or condominium? How close are your neighbors? Do you even know your neighbors? Would you trust them if the electricity was off and they were hungry? Could you grow your own food, if you had to? How easily could you secure your home? If you live in a cold weather environment, how long could you stay warm without electricity? These are the kinds of questions you need to ask yourself now.
Over the past several decades, masses of people have migrated into large metropolitan areas. More people live in urban areas than at any time in American history. While this may be well and good for times of prosperity, it is an absolute nightmare in any kind of disaster. Does anyone remember what New Orleans looked like after Hurricane Katrina came through? Can anyone recall what happened in downtown Los Angeles during the 1992 riots? Needless to say, any inner-city environment could become a powder keg almost instantaneously, given the right (or wrong) circumstances. And the bigger the city, the bigger the potential problems.
If you live in the inner city, I suggest you consider moving to a more rural location. Obviously, now is a very good time to buy property (especially rural property), but the downside is, selling property is not as favorable. If you can afford it, now is a great time to buy a "safe house" outside the city. If you are fortunate enough to have family or some true friends nearby, you might want to put your heads--and some resources--together in preparation for serious upheaval. Obviously, a team of prepared people is much better than being alone.
If you must stay in your urban location, have some commonsense plans in hand in the event of a major disaster. Get to know your neighbors: find out whom you can trust and whom you can't. Keep some extra gasoline on hand, in case you need to get in your car quickly and leave. Have several exit routes planned ahead of time, in case roads are blocked. Have a "bug-out" bag containing essential ingredients to live on for 3 or 4 days. If leaving is not an option, have a plan to secure your home as best you can. You'll need to think about things such as food, water, medicine, warmth, self-defense, etc. But at this point, to do nothing is absolute lunacy!
Provisions:
During a major disaster, food will quickly disappear. Living for over 3 decades on the Gulf Coast, I can tell you with absolute certainty that whenever disaster strikes (usually an approaching hurricane, for us), food and provisions at the store sell completely out in a matter of a few hours. People panic, and within hours, you cannot find food, bottled water, ice, generators, batteries, candles, etc. In a matter of hours, every gas station in the area will be completely out of gas. Not days. Hours!
Furthermore, almost all disasters include a complete loss of electricity. The water supply is compromised. Bottled water becomes more valuable than bank accounts. Dehydration becomes a very real and present danger. I remember witnessing a man offer an ice vendor $100 for an extra bag of ice during Hurricane Ivan. My wife and I went 2 weeks (14 days) without electricity in the aftermath of that hurricane. Believe me, I got a taste of just how precious bottled water, ice, batteries, generators, fuel, etc., can become.
I suggest you have a supply of food and water to last at least 2 weeks. A month would be even better. Personally, I can live a long time on tuna fish or peanut butter. You can purchase MREs from a variety of sources, as well as "camp-style" packaged food from stores such as Academy Sports & Outdoors. Of course, bottled water is available everywhere during normal times. Stock up! Plus, I suggest you have some water purification tablets or a Katadyn water filter on hand. And, if you are able, prepare to grow your own food. Canning food is another very helpful hedge against deprivation. If your parents were like mine, this was standard operating procedure.
Get a generator. Keep a supply of fuel on hand. Stay stocked up on batteries, candles, portable lights, first aid supplies, and personal hygiene items—especially toilet paper. Trust me, during times of intense and prolonged disaster, toilet paper could become more valuable than money. I also suggest you never run out of lighters or matches. You never know when you'll need to build a fire, and during a prolonged survival situation, fire could save your life. If you live in a cold weather climate, you probably already have some sort of wood stove or fireplace.
Obviously, you need to take stock of your clothing. Do you have clothes suitable for extended outdoor activity? What about boots? During a disaster, you would trade your best suit from Neiman Marcus for a good pair of boots. Do you have gloves? Insulated underwear? What about camouflage clothing? These could become essential outerwear in the right conditions. Plus, any "bug-out" bag will need to include spare clothing.
And one more suggestion, while we're on this subject: the best resources in the world are of little use if one is physically incapable of making good use of them. In other words, GET IN SHAPE. During any kind of emergency situation, physical exertion and stamina become immensely important.
Commodities:
I suggest you have at least some cash on hand. Just about any and all disasters will result in banks being closed for extended periods of time. That also means credit card purchases being suspended. You need to have enough cash to be able to purchase essential goods (if they are even available) for an undetermined amount of time.
Of course, some survival gurus insist that during any cataclysmic climate, precious metals will become the only reliable currency. But when most of us are trying to feed our families and pay our bills, it is difficult to get excited about buying gold and silver. Obviously, I would never recommend that anyone jeopardize the present on the altar of the future. My parents made it through the Great Depression with canned goods and garden vegetables; gold and silver were certainly not a priority with them. And maybe it should not be with you, either?
In fact, in a disaster, what is considered a valuable commodity can change rather quickly, as the barter system takes a life of its own. What is valuable is determined by what you need and how badly you need it. In a prolonged disaster, simple things such as toilet paper, canned goods, ammunition, and clothing could become extremely valuable; while cars, video games, televisions, etc., could be reduced to junk status. In antiquity, wars were fought over things such as salt.
Speaking of cars, remember that during a prolonged "national emergency" that might involve some sort of nuclear attack or widespread civil unrest, an Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) might be employed; in which case, most every late model vehicle would be completely inoperable. Accordingly, if one can keep an older, pre-computer-age vehicle in good working order, he or she might be driving the only non-government vehicle capable of going anywhere.
Self-Defense:
Needless to say, during any kind of disaster, your safety and protection will be completely up to you. If you really think that the police are going to be able to protect you during an upheaval, you are living in a dreamworld.
In both the New Orleans and Los Angeles disasters, police protection was non-existent. Lawless gangs quickly took control of the streets, and people were left to either defend themselves or swiftly become the helpless prey of violent marauders. In fact, in New Orleans, some of the policemen actually abandoned their oaths to uphold the law and joined with the criminals, turning their weapons upon the public.
Face it, folks: in any kind of disaster, you must be able to defend yourself, or you and your family will be meat for these animals of society that will quickly descend without mercy upon the unprepared, unsuspecting souls around them. This requires that you be armed! It also requires that you be skilled enough to be able to efficiently use your arms.
Therefore, I strongly suggest that you purchase firearms sufficient to keep you and your family safe, and also that you practice sufficiently to know how to proficiently use them.
Now, when it comes to a discussion of which firearms are preferable for self-defense, the suggestions are as varied as the people who proffer them. These are my suggestions:
I believe every man (along with his wife and children of adequate age) should be proficient with the following weapons: a handgun in .38 caliber or above, a .22 rifle, a center-fire hunting rifle, a semi-automatic battle rifle, and a shotgun.
My personal preference for a self-defense handgun is either a .45 ACP 1911 (either Colt or Kimber) or a .40 S&W. In the .40 caliber, my favorite is a Glock 23. In the 1911, I like the Commander size configuration. I also like the Glock 30 and 36 in .45 caliber. My wife prefers to carry a Smith & Wesson .38 caliber revolver in the snub-nose, J-frame configuration. But this is primarily due to the reduced weight of these weapons for carry purposes. If needed, she could make a good accounting of herself with a Glock 19 in 9mm. If you are someone who has never owned and seldom fired a handgun, I recommend you buy a Glock. They are as simple as revolvers to operate, reliable, and almost indestructible. Plus, they provide increased magazine capacity, and are safe. They are also very easy to disassemble and clean.
For a .22 rifle, I really like the Ruger 10/22. For a hunting rifle, my suggestion is either a .270 or .30-06 caliber bolt-action rifle. (If I had to pick one, I'd pick the .30-06.) I prefer the Remington Model 700 BDL, but there are several fine weapons in this configuration and caliber by numerous manufacturers. For a battle rifle, I suggest an AR-15-style weapon in .223 caliber. Here I prefer a Bushmaster. (Please, I don't need to hear from all you .308 lovers out there. I love the Springfield M1A, too.) For a shotgun, I suggest a 12-gauge pump. Here I prefer a Winchester Model 1300, which is not made anymore. So, you'll probably have to choose between Mossberg and Remington.
Whatever you choose, practice with it to the point that you are able to use it proficiently. And be sure you stock up on ammunition. A gun without ammo is reduced to being either an expensive club or a cumbersome paperweight.
Spiritual Power:
I firmly believe that man is created to have fellowship with his Creator-God. I really don't know how people can face the uncertain future that we currently face without the spiritual knowledge, wisdom, comfort, and power that is made available through Jesus Christ. I believe the maxim is true: "Wise men still seek Him." I strongly suggest that you seek to possess a personal relationship with God's only begotten Son.
That we are facing challenging days is a certainty. Exactly what that means is yet to be determined. I trust that some of my suggestions will help you be better prepared for what lies before us.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 8:51 am
by Scarecrow
I feel that we are to do all we can to protect ourselves and our property from whatever may come, and having the tools (guns) necessary to do so is not only our right, but our obligation. There will likely come a time where we will have to protect ourselves.
I think where the problem lies is when we entertain thoughts of taking up those arms in a violent revolution. The Lord saw that such a time would come however, and everyone will have to make a choice wether or not to stand and fight, or flee to Zion.
D&C 45:68-69 wrote:68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 9:01 am
by lundbaek
Without receiving personal revelation on the matter, which I have not, I have elected to have available the means to "repel boarders" and to allow myself the choice as to whether to carry and use these means outside of our home.
If I were to assume that I could disarm and leave my defence to he Lord, that would be to me as rediculous as ignoring the commandments to protect our Constitution and freedoms with the expectation that the Lord would take care of that for me, as apparently many LDS seem to think.
I do not expect the Church leadership to tell us members to arm ourselves in any such way that would convey the message to our potential and current adversaries that we are arming for battle. Imagine the reaction of the media and the anti-Mormon lot if word went out that Mormons are arming themselves preparing for battle to defend all that food they have stored in their homes. Imagine the reaction of the media and the NWO globalists if we were at this time told to start action to protect and restore constitutional principles to government. Talk about jerking the tail of the beast. I think we have been given enough information and warning that we can individually figure out what we ought to do in the way of protection of life and property.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 9:21 am
by BroJones
I appreciate the comments. Have the Prophets, perhaps Joseph or Brigham or more recent, said ANYTHING about owning weapons in line with the 2nd Amendment?
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 9:34 am
by Jason
So the question is - proactively fight or hole up in a rock and chart the collapse right?
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 9:41 am
by Scarecrow
Jason wrote:So the question is - proactively fight or hole up in a rock and chart the collapse right?
I think the latter. Mormon and Moroni were good examples of this. They fought as much as they could to protect themselves and their families, but eventually, they just holed up and let the bad guys kill each other. That will likely be our lot—fight only to defend ourselves, and hole up in Zion while all hades breaks loose around us.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 9:47 am
by Jason
holyhabanero wrote:Jason wrote:So the question is - proactively fight or hole up in a rock and chart the collapse right?
I think the latter. Mormon and Moroni were good examples of this. They fought as much as they could to protect themselves and their families, but eventually, they just holed up and let the bad guys kill each other. That will likely be our lot—fight only to defend ourselves, and hole up in Zion while all hades breaks loose around us.
Didn't they fight down to the last man.....who somehow escaped and wandered alone for at least several decades?
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 9:59 am
by lundbaek
Ezra Taft Benson did say someting about maintaining our right to own guns. I'd be hard put to findit now. It may be in "An Enemy Hath Done This". I have seen/read it. The implication to me was that we should not give up our right to keep an bear arms. He did not say we should arm ourselves. Personally, I don't need to be commanded on that one.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 10:05 am
by boomer
We should not be commanded in all things, and for this reason we are given to use wisdom and our judgment when it comes to choosing which paths to follow. That doesn't mean we do not take our problems and concerns to the Lord. We should be actively engaged in pursuing righteousness and that includes involving the Lord in all of our decisions. Over the years I have become accustom to the promptings of the Spirit and listening to those feelings have kept me out of trouble as well as teaching me what I should be doing.
I grew up with an understanding and respect of the proper use of weapons and I made sure that my family had this same understanding. Whether or not each member of my family liked or disliked “GUNS” was not the issue, I made sure that they understood the proper use and handling of any weapon they may come into contact with. It is the lack of knowledge that causes accidents.
I don’t have an arsenal of weapons but I do have a few of the standard types of hand guns and rifles in my home and I keep them properly secured. I no longer do any kind of hunting but I do like to go to the rifle range and keep my skills up to par. I have a concealed weapons permit and do so for one reason and one reason only… I would rather have a weapon at my disposal and never need it, than to need it and not have it.
Now I have accumulated a great deal of knowledge when it comes to the proper use of weapons and I’m thankful that I have never had to use any type of deadly force against another person. I attribute this fortune to listening to the Spirit. I have brought up the need of having a weapon on my person and for the protection of my family to the Lord and I have received the impression that I will be prompted when it will be necessary to protect my family.
The decision on whether or not to have a weapon in the home or on the person has to be a personal one. It comes with some serious commitment and contemplation on when and how you will be using it, if and when the situation should present itself. No one should own a “GUN” without learning how to properly handle and secure it. Just as important, you should never carry a weapon if you’re not completely committed and trained on using it, if and when the situation arises. It would be worse for you to hesitate and then have the weapon taken from you by the perpetrator and then use against you! Anyone who owns a weapon is required to know and understand the laws involved in its possession. Likewise anyone who carries a conceal weapon for protection is required to know the laws that stipulate when and where you can use it for self protection or the protection of those around you.
I have already been in two different situations that required me to defend myself and those around me. Each time I had a strong impression to have my weapon on my person and each time when I drew the weapon the perpetrator fled and that was just fine with me.
I believe the important point to remember, when it comes to owning weapons, is not to relish or boast in its possession but to understand it, to respect it, and then to respect and understand the feelings of others around you when it comes to “GUNS”. Except for my wife, I never let anyone know when I am carrying a concealed weapon!
The argument on whether or not it is right in the sight of the Lord to own and carry a weapon I feel is between you and the Lord. There is a case on both sides of this argument and it will carry on until the Millennium comes, at which time the weapons of war will be beat into plow shares.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 10:07 am
by MasterOfNone
"I am hereby resolved that under no circumstances shall the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights be infringed. In particular I am opposed to any attempt on the part of the federal government to deny people their right to keep and bear arms, to worship, and to pray..." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 617)
That one?
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 10:09 am
by 2wet2burn
I seem to remeber hearing a story that a gun factory in Utah was going to close and that general authorities/prophet? wanted to make sure it stayed in Utah. I will have to see if I can find some sorces on that. it may take a little time to sort out. I remember thinking it was unusual but that perhaps we would one day need to resource close at hand.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 10:16 am
by lundbaek
Thanks, Master of None. That's the one.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 11:10 am
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
I am absolutely of the opinion that we should have firearms where legal in our preparations after food, shelter, adequate clothing, & financial reserves are secured. But I think we will be advised to give them up when the time comes. We will not be the ones that choose to take up arms. The plot summary of the book "The Postman" was that it wasn't the emp or bio-engineered plagues that were the biggest problem, but the mobocracy of the ultra-survivalists. I agree that such will be the case. Caveat: I think that we will have a legitimate and legal security force that will police our Zion and maintain order, but I do not believe that the general populace will remain armed. I think it will be a test for us to place our trust in the Lord and His servants.
So yes, get them and be prepared to use them with wisdom and judgment, but likewise be prepared to give them up if asked by the prophet and/or majority of the twelve.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 11:33 am
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
Do we believe in the Constitutional Congressional ability to suppress insurrection? We believe that Lincoln was right to do so in the case of the Civil War, but will we feel so in our day? Will we support martial law when, after whatever event, anarchy and mobocracy begin to take over? Will we then cling to our guns and preps and say "game on"? Or will we support the rule of law and order which may well require firearm confiscation to restore law and order, to restore the administration of civil authority?
How can you have a Zion to flee to for those that do not wish to take up arms against their neighbors if Zions inhabitants are all armed? Zion is for those that do not wish to take up arms, and yet her inhabitants are "terrible, fierce."
Give it some thought if you haven't and draw you're own lines, but not in the sand, draw them deeper than that and don't compromise any more.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 11:40 am
by Scarecrow
Jason wrote:holyhabanero wrote:Jason wrote:So the question is - proactively fight or hole up in a rock and chart the collapse right?
I think the latter. Mormon and Moroni were good examples of this. They fought as much as they could to protect themselves and their families, but eventually, they just holed up and let the bad guys kill each other. That will likely be our lot—fight only to defend ourselves, and hole up in Zion while all hades breaks loose around us.
Didn't they fight down to the last man.....who somehow escaped and wandered alone for at least several decades?
It was Coriantumr (Jaredites) who was the last man standing on the battlefield. But I was mistaken as Mormon was killed in Battle. It was Moroni who hid in the wilderness avoiding capture and documenting the wickedness and destruction of the people, eventually hiding up the plates.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 11:45 am
by Jason
holyhabanero wrote:It was Coriantimer (Jaredites) who was the last man standing on the battlefield. But I was mistaken as Mormon was killed in Battle. It was Moroni who hid in the wilderness avoiding capture and documenting the wickedness and destruction of the people, eventually hiding up the plates.
I was referring to Moroni but perhaps I'm mistaken. Didn't he fight to the end and then somehow avoid capture? Maybe its the picture of the battlefield with Moroni holding Mormon that clouds my memory.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 12:09 pm
by Scarecrow
Jason wrote:holyhabanero wrote:It was Coriantimer (Jaredites) who was the last man standing on the battlefield. But I was mistaken as Mormon was killed in Battle. It was Moroni who hid in the wilderness avoiding capture and documenting the wickedness and destruction of the people, eventually hiding up the plates.
I was referring to Moroni but perhaps I'm mistaken. Didn't he fight to the end and then somehow avoid capture? Maybe its the picture of the battlefield with Moroni holding Mormon that clouds my memory.
No I think you are right. He fought until all his men were gone, then he was left “alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of [his] people."
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 12:18 pm
by Jason
holyhabanero wrote:Jason wrote:holyhabanero wrote:It was Coriantimer (Jaredites) who was the last man standing on the battlefield. But I was mistaken as Mormon was killed in Battle. It was Moroni who hid in the wilderness avoiding capture and documenting the wickedness and destruction of the people, eventually hiding up the plates.
I was referring to Moroni but perhaps I'm mistaken. Didn't he fight to the end and then somehow avoid capture? Maybe its the picture of the battlefield with Moroni holding Mormon that clouds my memory.
No I think you are right. He fought until all his men were gone, then he was left “alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of [his] people."
I often think of him. I imagine he had a wife and family. Know at least he had a mother. I can't imagine the trials.....the women and children who had not the strength....
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 2:44 pm
by bobhenstra
Steve quotes Alex Baldwin about self defense weapons.
Self-Defense: It's the Captain Moroni Gambit for me, until I'm told different!
Needless to say, during any kind of disaster, your safety and protection will be completely up to you. If you really think that the police are going to be able to protect you during an upheaval, you are living in a dreamworld.
In both the New Orleans and Los Angeles disasters, police protection was non-existent. Lawless gangs quickly took control of the streets, and people were left to either defend themselves or swiftly become the helpless prey of violent marauders. In fact, in New Orleans, some of the policemen actually abandoned their oaths to uphold the law and joined with the criminals, turning their weapons upon the public.
Face it, folks: in any kind of disaster, you must be able to defend yourself, or you and your family will be meat for these animals of society that will quickly descend without mercy upon the unprepared, unsuspecting souls around them. This requires that you be armed! It also requires that you be skilled enough to be able to efficiently use your arms.
Therefore, I strongly suggest that you purchase firearms sufficient to keep you and your family safe, and also that you practice sufficiently to know how to proficiently use them.
Now, when it comes to a discussion of which firearms are preferable for self-defense, the suggestions are as varied as the people who proffer them. These are my suggestions:
I believe every man (along with his wife and children of adequate age) should be proficient with the following weapons: a handgun in .38 caliber or above, a .22 rifle, a center-fire hunting rifle, a semi-automatic battle rifle, and a shotgun.
My personal preference for a self-defense handgun is either a .45 ACP 1911 (either Colt or Kimber) or a .40 S&W. In the .40 caliber, my favorite is a Glock 23. In the 1911, I like the Commander size configuration. I also like the Glock 30 and 36 in .45 caliber. My wife prefers to carry a Smith & Wesson .38 caliber revolver in the snub-nose, J-frame configuration. But this is primarily due to the reduced weight of these weapons for carry purposes. If needed, she could make a good accounting of herself with a Glock 19 in 9mm. If you are someone who has never owned and seldom fired a handgun, I recommend you buy a Glock. They are as simple as revolvers to operate, reliable, and almost indestructible. Plus, they provide increased magazine capacity, and are safe. They are also very easy to disassemble and clean.
For a .22 rifle, I really like the Ruger 10/22. For a hunting rifle, my suggestion is either a .270 or .30-06 caliber bolt-action rifle. (If I had to pick one, I'd pick the .30-06.) I prefer the Remington Model 700 BDL, but there are several fine weapons in this configuration and caliber by numerous manufacturers. For a battle rifle, I suggest an AR-15-style weapon in .223 caliber. Here I prefer a Bushmaster. (Please, I don't need to hear from all you .308 lovers out there. I love the Springfield M1A, too.) For a shotgun, I suggest a 12-gauge pump. Here I prefer a Winchester Model 1300, which is not made anymore. So, you'll probably have to choose between Mossberg and Remington.
Whatever you choose, practice with it to the point that you are able to use it proficiently. And be sure you stock up on ammunition. A gun without ammo is reduced to being either an expensive club or a cumbersome paperweight.
After years of shooting, being trained and training myself, I agree with Baldwin on his choices of fire arms.
I have a good friend who is about to retire from the FBI, he personally loves his Glocks, has never had a jam or broken rail. I am partial to 1911 .45 frames, the reason why is parts are so much easier to get, there are a lot of 1911s out there. And because of my military experience I'm very familiar with the 1911, in it's various frames. And for self D there simply is no better bullet than the .45 ACP.
Choose the 30.06 in what ever brand of rifle you choose. My choice would be the Ruger
model 77, my choice of bullet for hunting is the 130 grain hollow point. I have "never" had to shoot an animal twice using that bullet, and that includes elk at a considerable distance.
For self Defense with that weapon, regular military ball ammo is the best. I can take a bad guy out, out to a thousand yards with that combination.
I agree with the choice of the Winchester model 1300 shotgun. It comes with two barrels, one drilled and tapped for a small scope, the other set up for normal shotgun use. I load my own shotgun ammunition, pour my own Lyman slugs. Shooting off hand, I can put ten slugs on a paper plate at 100 yards,--- you understand, I'm getting old---- I also have .00 buck and number 4 buck rounds for closer ranges--specially made for old men--
The Ruger 10-22 is a masterful piece of gun workmanship, were I younger, I'd have a ball working with the off market components available for that little gun. As is, it works perfectly for my purposes, and if I only had one choice for a self D weapon, it's be the Ruger 10-22 with large capacity Magazines, loaded with solid point ammunition. But then, when I pull the trigger, I know exactly where my bullet is going to end up. We use the "Butler Creek" 25 round magazines, haven't yet found anything better.
The Ruger rifle was my wife's favorite gun to shoot. Her favorite pistol to shoot was my Ruger .22 Mark ll Target. She really enjoyed and "depended upon" an excellent Russian made Makarov in 9X18, a round with about the same ballistics as a normal 9 MM. It was pretty cheap when I bought it so many years ago, now I understand it's next to impossible to get, great shooting gun, very accurate, very well made. But it must be the Russian made model, not a cheap knock off! My other handguns had far to heavy recoil for her to shoot comfortably.
My daughters love their small frame Kimber 1911s, and I wouldn't want to be facing the business end of that weapon with any of the three of them controlling the trigger. However, they also like their 10-22s, and practice shooting them off handed, from the hip. They like to practice changing mags in both guns.
One Daughter in Law prefers her small frame Ruger 9mm, another has a small frame Berreta 9mm, and a third shoots another Makarov in .380. My fourth Daughter in law doesn't like shooting at all, to noisy! But when AHBL she'll have plenty of men around her who can shoot.
As far as battle rifles go, we all choose any AR variant in .223. Reason, easiest reloadable ammunition to buy in bulk.
Is anyone aware that a common .22 caliber pellet, used in a pellet gun can be shot from a .223 casing just using just the rifle primer for propulsion? After doing this we make darn sure the barrel is not plugged in some way after shooting, It's very quiet shooting. A way to quietly collect the many types of "chickens, rabbits etc." that might accidentally cross our paths, and still have our battle rifle on hand. For a bit of money, $20 bucks, a casing can be bought that'll load a shotgun 209 primer for extra velocity. But I see no reason a good quality empty .223 casing primer hole couldn't be carefully drilled out to accept the 209 primer. BE SURE AND carefully INSPECT YOUR RIFLE BARREL BEFORE SHOOTING REGULAR AMMO IN THE SAME WEAPON!
Think I'll bump another thread.
Bob
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 3:30 pm
by Original_Intent
I am increasingly feeling promptings that we need to take ALL measures (food, defense etc) to:
FIRST, care for ourselves and our immediate families,
Second, care for our extended families,
Third, protect our neighborhoods/wards/communities,
Fourth, the stake level,
5th, the city level
6th, the county level
7th, the state level
8th, the regional level
9th, the national level
10, globally.
These need to be taken care of in proper order. I believe the wicked will not come to fight us because we will be prepared and organized to the point that we can at least take care of the 4th or 5th level, possibly as high as the 8th level, while most of the world will be organized around taking care of at best the 1st or 2nd levels.
We need to be as prepared as possible so that we can organize at a higher level while everyone else is living in chaos/ survival mode.
Also the farther down (up?) the heirarchy we go, the less conflict there will be.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 3:33 pm
by Jason
bobhenstra wrote:Is anyone aware that a common .22 caliber pellet, used in a pellet gun can be shot from a .223 casing just using just the rifle primer for propulsion? After doing this we make darn sure the barrel is not plugged in some way after shooting, It's very quiet shooting. A way to quietly collect the many types of "chickens, rabbits etc." that might accidentally cross our paths, and still have our battle rifle on hand. For a bit of money, $20 bucks, a casing can be bought that'll load a shotgun 209 primer for extra velocity. But I see no reason a good quality empty .223 casing primer hole couldn't be carefully drilled out to accept the 209 primer. BE SURE AND carefully INSPECT YOUR RIFLE BARREL BEFORE SHOOTING REGULAR AMMO IN THE SAME WEAPON!
Bob
Thank you for the tidbit!!!
I like my Gamo I picked up at Walmart on clearance for $70....but that's a sweet tip! Love Glocks! Friend of mine that's a head hunter over in the sandpit swears by Glocks....like's to gloat about how many times at Clint's ranch he's seen multi-thousand dollar custom .45s trip up while he's still banging away. I like the Springfield modified version. Austria vs Croatia! Love the 10-22...with cheap scope (clearance) from Walmart....knock old rifle brass off a box at 100 m. Prefer the Mossberg 835 (another $170 Walmart clearance item)....take up to 3 1/2" shells. Have to order the 18" barrel directly from the company though. Like Savage for the distance stuff. .300 WSM gives you a good 1k stick for less than $1k. The short action allows you to maintain cheek weld while operating bolt. Ammo is pricier and harder to come by than .06 though. I'd choose it 2nd over an .06.
Good basics....everything else is $$$$ and could go on forever LOL. Could easily blow at least $50k in a week if that were the intention! .338 Dakota Scimitar or maybe Desert Tactical, .50 Barrett, .408 Cheytac, RRA .458 SOCOM, Bushmaster ACR 5.56, FN SCAR 17S .308, Wilson Combat/Ed Brown/10-8 Performance/RRA/Kimber .45s, Nightforce/ACOG optics, range gear, etc etc etc etc.....yeah that's well over $70k right there....just shootin' from the hip.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 4:23 pm
by keeprunning
I think it totally depends on who, or what, we are fighting against. Just like there are different scenarios in the scriptures.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 7:35 pm
by Jason
keeprunning wrote:I think it totally depends on who, or what, we are fighting against. Just like there are different scenarios in the scriptures.
So true! The most likely scenarios I see is social decay - Argentina type stuff that FerFal covers on a daily basis. Pistol and a shotgun wrap that up pretty good.
Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?
Posted: December 18th, 2009, 8:04 pm
by keeprunning
I think it'd be good to truly study captain Moroni and Helaman and see what strategies they used and justifications for fighting/defending. Figuring out how to apply it to real life modern situations is the question. In my current life, I see no need to 'arm' myself, except spiritually/mentally. Who knows how the future will change.