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Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 24th, 2009, 9:23 am
by pritchet1
We are to defend ourselves.
Self Defense or Turn the other Cheek?

BTW, I only have 4 cheeks!

See also What Do the Scriptures Teach Us About War?

Connor wrote this in March 2009 - The Right and Responsibility of Self-Defense

I will keep my machete sharp. And the metal baseball bat is at the ready. But I will rely on God to protect me as I try to live righteously, so I can have the right to call down the hosts of heaven to protect me and my family through the power of the priesthood.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 26th, 2009, 5:29 am
by Rose Garden
Interesting topic. My opinion is that being spiritually prepared is most important. Then, when the time comes, we will be protected either by the Lord intervening for us or because we followed a prompting to acquire firearms. It really could be different for every family. But I also believe there's nothing wrong with getting arms without waiting to be prompted or not getting them if you're not.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 29th, 2009, 2:13 pm
by ConDef
I believe firmly in arming myself with the intent of being able to defend myself and hold others to the same. Let me share one scripture as to why I feel this way.

Alma 43:47

And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 1:16 pm
by tribrac
I recently talked about this very topic with an awake friend of mine. I grew up with guns, and have hunted my entire life. I would consider myself able to defend my family even though I've never got into the assault rifles and don't really care for handguns.

My feeling, is that someday I will be presented with a choice to continue defending myself with a sword, or lay it down and trust in Zion (the Lord) to protect me and my family. I supose prior to that choice that the sword may have to be used out of necessity. To me the thought of injuring or killing another human is abhorent, no matter how wicked or threatening they may be, however, the thought of laying down the sword with the accompanying feelings of vulnerabilty is equally loathesome. Self defense or feeling secure is one of the most basic of all natural instincts. Would I have enough faith to turn from the natural man to rely on faith? Time may tell.

For now I will keep those extra boxes of shells I bought last fall, and work to develope the faith to walk away from them someday.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 1:41 pm
by Jason
tribrac wrote:I recently talked about this very topic with an awake friend of mine. I grew up with guns, and have hunted my entire life. I would consider myself able to defend my family even though I've never got into the assault rifles and don't really care for handguns.

My feeling, is that someday I will be presented with a choice to continue defending myself with a sword, or lay it down and trust in Zion (the Lord) to protect me and my family. I supose prior to that choice that the sword may have to be used out of necessity. To me the thought of injuring or killing another human is abhorent, no matter how wicked or threatening they may be, however, the thought of laying down the sword with the accompanying feelings of vulnerabilty is equally loathesome. Self defense or feeling secure is one of the most basic of all natural instincts. Would I have enough faith to turn from the natural man to rely on faith? Time may tell.

For now I will keep those extra boxes of shells I bought last fall, and work to develope the faith to walk away from them someday.
I haven't seen the evidence first hand....but I've been told of preparations a plenty concerning the ability of Zion to defend itself! Next time you take a tour through the records section....just snoop around a little!

Browning was a good Mormon!

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 1:55 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
I feel about the same. I Grew up around firearms and can converse on the highest level with the best gunsmiths out there about most anything relating to firearms and ballistics. I know and have utilized most platforms from military to civilian rimfire to centerfire yada yada. I carried concealed for years (I don't bother doing so here for many reasons) and am very proficient in all aspects relating thereto. I am a certifiable gun nut without the compulsive buying disorders of my youth.

But I have had a very strong feeling that I would have to choose to trust in my own arms or His at some point and that is altogether too easy a trial for me now.

I however would have no hesitation to take a life when needed. It wouldn't be difficult at all and I doubt I would spend much time obsessing about it later (after the initial decompression/debriefing). The line is clear enough to me not to worry about crossing it. That is their choice not mine.

So my objection is either Spiritually induced or masochistic (like getting rid of the firearms/vehicles/tools I loved the most to prove to myself that I could and that my, easy come, easy go attitude wasn't just talk). I honestly think there is likely an element of both behind it.

But that leads me to conclude with trust but verify. And in terms of being prepared that leads me to prepare with firearms but be prepared to huck em.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 1:56 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
The Brownings were awesome! The story inspiring. The firearms second to none.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 2:09 pm
by Jason
SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:The Brownings were awesome! The story inspiring. The firearms second to none.
The man was a genius! Not to put down the rest of the family.....

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 2:43 pm
by bobhenstra
For me it's simple; I'll "forgive" the idiot that forces me to kill him, the jerk who forces me into such a dreadful action. And I will kill him, I will not shoot to wound.

I also recognize the fact that few people have my training with firearms, the dread of killing is a good thing, but not at the expense of rape, injury or death of a daughter, wife or family member. I'll have no fear of dread after, why? Because I'll forgive him, I have discovered it's easy for me to forgive stupidity.

I mentioned this to another member of this site; A wife should lovingly put her arms around her husbands neck, look him right between the eyes and remind him, that the safety of she and their children, is "HIS" responsibility!

Get moving husbands----get trained, get a weapon, or even two! Real husbands, fathers do not allow themselves to be killed or injured, thereby denying further protection for his family.

Bob

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 3:52 pm
by tribrac
Jason wrote: I haven't seen the evidence first hand....but I've been told of preparations a plenty concerning the ability of Zion to defend itself! Next time you take a tour through the records section....just snoop around a little!
I am skeptical of that, because it would be difficult to amase such items and keep it quiet, further you can't have such items without having someone trained to use it and that makes it even harder to keep it quiet.

But I did have an imaginitive Seminary teacher who claimed that the church knew they could defend the approximate borders of the original State of Deseret with just a few critial weapons at just 6 critical mountain passes or bridges.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 4:15 pm
by bobhenstra
tribrac wrote:
Jason wrote: I haven't seen the evidence first hand....but I've been told of preparations a plenty concerning the ability of Zion to defend itself! Next time you take a tour through the records section....just snoop around a little!
I am skeptical of that, because it would be difficult to amase such items and keep it quiet, further you can't have such items without having someone trained to use it and that makes it even harder to keep it quiet.

But I did have an imaginitive Seminary teacher who claimed that the church knew they could defend the approximate borders of the original State of Deseret with just a few critial weapons at just 6 critical mountain passes or bridges.
The Church has them, or should I say, Access to them, also the people "trained" by the U.S. military to use them. The trained people just need to be called up.

No worries---

Bob

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 4:23 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
And it wasn't your seminary teacher that said that, it was Brigham Young (if I'm not mistaken), and it's in the Journal of Discourses.(read it a week or two ago)

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 4:30 pm
by Jason
tribrac wrote:
Jason wrote: I haven't seen the evidence first hand....but I've been told of preparations a plenty concerning the ability of Zion to defend itself! Next time you take a tour through the records section....just snoop around a little!
I am skeptical of that, because it would be difficult to amase such items and keep it quiet, further you can't have such items without having someone trained to use it and that makes it even harder to keep it quiet.

But I did have an imaginitive Seminary teacher who claimed that the church knew they could defend the approximate borders of the original State of Deseret with just a few critial weapons at just 6 critical mountain passes or bridges.
I won't discuss further detail as there isn't a need to....the church is very lo-pro (have you seen anything in the Ensign about semi's with power generators that can pull up and power a cannery)...

Also the Seminary teacher is correct in that this is one of the most defensible places on the planet (where you can still grow enough food to support a large number of people).

Also Marine Corps bootcamp lasts 13 weeks and is the most extensive and intensive of the armed services. Combat training is an additional 4 weeks. During times of war those times have been cut down considerably when you get rid of all the parade and razzle dazzle stuff. Basically 8 weeks (2nd phase of boot and 4 wks of combat training) would do quite well.

Depending on what happens with technology....a good burst from the sun would take out 90%....will greatly effect the way the game is played!

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: December 31st, 2009, 4:54 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
Snipers and artillery alone would do 90%+ of what would need done. See also Afghanistan. They're kicking our tails with old skool cool tools from their lofty mountainous perches.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 1st, 2010, 1:08 am
by Rose Garden
I thought about this topic again when I read last week's Sunday School lesson.
13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the drivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him.
14 There also came up a land out of the depth of the sea, and so great was the fear of the enemies of the people of God, that they fled and stood afar off and went upon the land which came up out of the depth of the sea.
Compare that to Moroni's story where they were fighting with corruption as well as the Lamanites.
3 But behold, there are those who do joy in your afflictions, yea, insomuch that they have risen up in rebellion against me, and also those of my people who are freemen, yea, and those who have risen up are exceedingly numerous.
4 And it is those who have sought to take away the judgment-seat from me that have been the cause of this great iniquity; for they have used great flattery, and they have bled away the hearts of many people, which will be the cause of sore affliction among us; they have withheld our provisions, and have daunted our freemen that they have not come unto you.
5 And behold, they have driven me out before them, and I have fled to the land of Gideon, with as many men as it were possible that I could get.
6 And behold, I have sent a proclamation throughout this part of the land; and behold, they are flocking to us daily, to their arms, in the defence of their country and their freedom, and to avenge our wrongs.
7 And they have come unto us, insomuch that those who have risen up in rebellion against us are set at defiance, yea, insomuch that they do fear us and durst not come out against us to battle.
8 They have got possession of the land, or the city, of Zarahemla; they have appointed a king over them, and he hath written unto the king of the Lamanites, in the which he hath joined an alliance with him; in the which alliance he hath agreed to maintain the city of Zarahemla, which maintenance he supposeth will enable the Lamanites to conquer the remainder of the land, and he shall be placed king over this people when they shall be conquered under the Lamanites.
Our ultimate goal is to be a Zion people. We know that Zion will come again to earth about the time the Savior comes again. If we are not prepared, we just might not make it (individually). We need to prepare ourselves spiritually to be like Enoch.

However, we live in a world very much like the one of Moroni's time. We might need to be physically prepared to defend ourselves. But the Lord has not given a specific commandment on this subject. That means it has been left up to us as individuals to seek guidance in this area. I know for myself when I was pondering this subject that I heard a leader speaking on peace that left me feeling that I did NOT need to build up an arsenal of weapons. However, the talk didn't say that specifically and that is purely an individual interpretation.

I believe the previous poster was right in that there will probably be a time when have to give up our physical defenses and rely on the Lord. If we are to become a Zion people, we will have to be tested in this thing just like in all other areas. We should be prepared spiritually to do so. In the meantime, each individual should make it a matter of serious contemplation and prayer to decide whether they should prepare physical defenses or not. The Lord only will know whether each individual will need them.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 1st, 2010, 10:47 am
by Jason
roserum wrote:I thought about this topic again when I read last week's Sunday School lesson.
13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the drivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him.
14 There also came up a land out of the depth of the sea, and so great was the fear of the enemies of the people of God, that they fled and stood afar off and went upon the land which came up out of the depth of the sea.
Compare that to Moroni's story where they were fighting with corruption as well as the Lamanites.
3 But behold, there are those who do joy in your afflictions, yea, insomuch that they have risen up in rebellion against me, and also those of my people who are freemen, yea, and those who have risen up are exceedingly numerous.
4 And it is those who have sought to take away the judgment-seat from me that have been the cause of this great iniquity; for they have used great flattery, and they have bled away the hearts of many people, which will be the cause of sore affliction among us; they have withheld our provisions, and have daunted our freemen that they have not come unto you.
5 And behold, they have driven me out before them, and I have fled to the land of Gideon, with as many men as it were possible that I could get.
6 And behold, I have sent a proclamation throughout this part of the land; and behold, they are flocking to us daily, to their arms, in the defence of their country and their freedom, and to avenge our wrongs.
7 And they have come unto us, insomuch that those who have risen up in rebellion against us are set at defiance, yea, insomuch that they do fear us and durst not come out against us to battle.
8 They have got possession of the land, or the city, of Zarahemla; they have appointed a king over them, and he hath written unto the king of the Lamanites, in the which he hath joined an alliance with him; in the which alliance he hath agreed to maintain the city of Zarahemla, which maintenance he supposeth will enable the Lamanites to conquer the remainder of the land, and he shall be placed king over this people when they shall be conquered under the Lamanites.
Our ultimate goal is to be a Zion people. We know that Zion will come again to earth about the time the Savior comes again. If we are not prepared, we just might not make it (individually). We need to prepare ourselves spiritually to be like Enoch.

However, we live in a world very much like the one of Moroni's time. We might need to be physically prepared to defend ourselves. But the Lord has not given a specific commandment on this subject. That means it has been left up to us as individuals to seek guidance in this area. I know for myself when I was pondering this subject that I heard a leader speaking on peace that left me feeling that I did NOT need to build up an arsenal of weapons. However, the talk didn't say that specifically and that is purely an individual interpretation.

I believe the previous poster was right in that there will probably be a time when have to give up our physical defenses and rely on the Lord. If we are to become a Zion people, we will have to be tested in this thing just like in all other areas. We should be prepared spiritually to do so. In the meantime, each individual should make it a matter of serious contemplation and prayer to decide whether they should prepare physical defenses or not. The Lord only will know whether each individual will need them.
The Lord will assist us after we have done all we can do and cannot go further alone. Has always been the case....I would love to hear of examples to the contrary.

Did not Nephi and his brethren build the ship? Or the Jaredites their barges? They were given instructions on the manner of construction....but the Lord did not do the building. The miracle of the stones was due to the fact that it was outside of the ability of the Jaredites. Same with Noah building the ark. The angels assisted the handcart companies....after they had done all they could do. All the pioneer's that I'm aware of made the trip via hard work....not aware of any transporting.

...which is why the whole focus on moving mountains is ridiculous. The focus on faith...not ridiculous.

We are expected to be wise with what we have been blessed with! We are also commanded to defend our families. Maybe that requires an arsenal...maybe not - between you and the Lord. The point is I have yet to see any historical examples of the Lord rescuing someone who sat still waiting to be rescued....please enlighten me if you know of some examples.

Its both physical and spiritual preparation....you can't have one without the other! Though at times one may take priority over the other as seen in Brigham Young's call out at conference (and cancellation of the spiritual conference) to rescue those stranded and missing. At other times it may be reversed.

The greatest miracles in the Old Testament (parting Red Sea, water from the rock, etc) were a result of the people's faith in God.....AND they were at a point where they were not capable of doing it themselves. The same standard exists with charity. You help people when they are not capable of helping themselves. We often overlook that rule and handicap people in the process.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 1st, 2010, 8:45 pm
by Rose Garden
Jason, I'm a little confused. It seems to me that you are saying the same thing I did, yet the tone indicates to me that you are opposing my post. I think I must be missing something. Would you mind clarifying?

Just to clarify again my thoughts on the subject, I think that this question specifically must be answered on an individual basis since the Lord has not given a general command to obtain arms and the ability to use them.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with someone going out and getting guns without waiting for the Lord's direction or someone not buying guns when they haven't been directed to do so by the Lord. If each person is trying their best to be spiritually prepared, they will do what they need to in this area when they need to.

The most important thing is the spiritual preparation. The physical preparation will happen if an individual is doing all they can to follow the direction of the Lord.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 1st, 2010, 9:10 pm
by Jason
roserum wrote:Jason, I'm a little confused. It seems to me that you are saying the same thing I did, yet the tone indicates to me that you are opposing my post. I think I must be missing something. Would you mind clarifying?

Just to clarify again my thoughts on the subject, I think that this question specifically must be answered on an individual basis since the Lord has not given a general command to obtain arms and the ability to use them.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with someone going out and getting guns without waiting for the Lord's direction or someone not buying guns when they haven't been directed to do so by the Lord. If each person is trying their best to be spiritually prepared, they will do what they need to in this area when they need to.

The most important thing is the spiritual preparation. The physical preparation will happen if an individual is doing all they can to follow the direction of the Lord.
You bet....sorry for the confusion. Not really opposing your thoughts...just adding to some highlights. For example, it really isn't a question of prayer for whether you should prepare physically or not....the commandment to prepare has already been given. We have been commanded to defend and protect our families.

Like your comment above about guns....we've been commanded to defend our families....why would you have to pray about guns? You utilize whatever is available to protect your family. If its beyond your capability then ask the Lord to step in and have faith that He will.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 1st, 2010, 10:04 pm
by SwissMrs&Pitchfire
Like you point out though when it's 2 against 2000, the only thing putting them to flight is the manifestations of God behind us and not our Sig.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 2nd, 2010, 10:28 pm
by tick
This is a bit of a lengthy thread so forgive me if I'm duplicating anything. My opinion is that the Constitution of the United States is an inspired document. It gives me the right to bear arms, and I exercise that right. I believe that the lord would not have included such provisions if there will not come a time we will need them to defend our lives, families, property and freedoms.

I also feel that the prophet Joseph smith being armed at Carthage jail speaks volumes about how he felt regarding the use of firearms to defend your life.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 3rd, 2010, 1:39 am
by Rose Garden
Jason wrote:
roserum wrote:Jason, I'm a little confused. It seems to me that you are saying the same thing I did, yet the tone indicates to me that you are opposing my post. I think I must be missing something. Would you mind clarifying?

Just to clarify again my thoughts on the subject, I think that this question specifically must be answered on an individual basis since the Lord has not given a general command to obtain arms and the ability to use them.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with someone going out and getting guns without waiting for the Lord's direction or someone not buying guns when they haven't been directed to do so by the Lord. If each person is trying their best to be spiritually prepared, they will do what they need to in this area when they need to.

The most important thing is the spiritual preparation. The physical preparation will happen if an individual is doing all they can to follow the direction of the Lord.
You bet....sorry for the confusion. Not really opposing your thoughts...just adding to some highlights. For example, it really isn't a question of prayer for whether you should prepare physically or not....the commandment to prepare has already been given. We have been commanded to defend and protect our families.

Like your comment above about guns....we've been commanded to defend our families....why would you have to pray about guns? You utilize whatever is available to protect your family. If its beyond your capability then ask the Lord to step in and have faith that He will.
I see, and I agree, there is no need to pray about whether we should protect our families because that has been given as a general command. I also believe there is no need to pray about whether it's right to go out and buy a gun. If you want to do it and it won't take from more pressing needs then there is no reason not to. I would point out though that people like me who grew up in anti-gun homes would probably need to pray about whether they should buy a gun, because I was inclined to NOT buy one and would have had to overcome some personal fears to do so. Others like me might reject that option as a means of protection simply because they are prejudiced against them.

As I said before, the Lord impressed me that I didn't need to acquire a gun and then several months later we moved to a country where individual gun ownership is illegal. We would have had to get rid of any firearms we acquired. By now, my whole paradigm has changed to the point where I would feel comfortable having a gun around (though I'd still be leaving the shooting up to my husband :D).

EDIT: After reviewing my previous post I realize I said we should pray about whether we should prepare physical defenses, but of course that should be what physical defenses we should prepare. I understand the principles; I just sometimes have a bit of a short circuit between my brain and my typing.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 3rd, 2010, 6:29 pm
by MercynGrace
Dr. Jones,
Interesting question you posed at the outset of this thread! I believe there is a time for both responses but one thing I keep in mind is that in spite of Capt. Moroni's efforts, the Nephites were decimated. Enoch's people, on the other hand, were taken up to heaven. So, if our path determines our destination, I know which course I prefer.
MnG

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 4th, 2010, 10:07 pm
by gruden
MercynGrace wrote:Dr. Jones,
Interesting question you posed at the outset of this thread! I believe there is a time for both responses but one thing I keep in mind is that in spite of Capt. Moroni's efforts, the Nephites were decimated. Enoch's people, on the other hand, were taken up to heaven. So, if our path determines our destination, I know which course I prefer.
MnG
They were 'decimated' (at least some of them) because they were wicked. Moroni makes that quite clear. The ones that refused to arm themselves in defense of their rights and liberties were jailed and/or put to death.

Enoch also led his people to battle against the armies of the wicked that came to destroy them. The difference is his people were not wicked, and evidenced what kind of power the righteous can wield. Moroni was trying to do the same thing but too many Nephites were stubborn for too long and created too many factions and divisions.

It's not a question of whether or not to pick up a weapon in the defense of one's family and freedom of worship. It's a question of whether a people is united in righteousness. That's the difference between the two scenarios, not weapons.

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 5th, 2010, 10:45 am
by NoGreaterLove
These are excerpts from an 11 page talk given by Brigham Young during the Indian Wars in Utah. The entire talk is awesome! I tried to pick out some of the paragraphs that convey what he said.


An address delivered by President Brigham Young, in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, July 31, 1853.

J27I wish to say a few words to the Latter-day Saints this morning, as there seems to be considerable excitement in the feelings of the people, and many inquiring what will be the result of the present Indian difficulties.

J27There seems to be some excitement among the people, and fears are arising in the breasts of many, as to the general safety. Some person has been shot at by the Indians, or some Indians were seen in an hostile condition. And away go messengers to report to head quarters, saying, "What shall we do? for we cannot tell, but we shall all be killed by them; they have stolen our horses, and driven off some cattle, which has created a great excitement in our settlement," &c.; when, perhaps, to-morrow, the very Indians who have committed these depredations will come and say, "How do you do? We are friendly, cannot you give us some Chitcup?" They will shake hands, and appear as though it were impossible for them to be guilty of another hostility. And what is the next move? Why, our wise men, the Elders of Israel, are either so fluctuating in their feelings, so unstable in their ways, or so ignorant of the Indian character, that the least mark of friendship manifested by these treacherous red men, will lull all their fears, throw them entirely off their guard, saying, "It is all right; wife, take care of the stock, for I am going to the kanyon for a load of wood."

J27Away he goes without a gun or a pistol to defend himself, in case of an attack from some Indian or Indians, to rob him of his cattle, and perhaps his life. Herds of cattle are driven upon the range, the feelings of the people are divested of all fear by this little show of Indian friendship, and their hearts are at peace with all mankind. They lie down to sleep at night with the doors of their houses open, and in many instances with no way a close them if they were willing, only by means of hanging up a blanket. Thus they go to sleep with their guns unloaded, and entirely without any means of defence, in case they should be attacked in the night. On the other hand, they no sooner discover an Indian in an hostile attitude, than the hue and cry is "We shall all be murdered immediately." That is the kind of stability, the kind of unshaken self-command, the style of generalship and wisdom manifested by Elders in Israel. To-day all are in arms, war is on hand; "we are going to be destroyed, or to fight our way through," is in every mouth. To-morrow all is peace, and every man turns to his own way, wherever the common avocations of life call him. No concern is felt as to protection in the future, but "all is right, all is safety, there is no fear of any further trouble," is the language of people's thoughts, and they lie down to sleep in a false security, to be murdered in the night by their enemies, if they are disposed to murder them.

J27I can tell you one thing with regard to excitement and war. You may take Israel here, as a community, with all their experience, and with all they have passed through in the shape of war, and difficulties of various kinds, and these wild Indians are actually wiser in their generations in the art of war than this people are. They lay better plans, display greater skill, and are steadier in their feelings. They are not so easily excited, and when excited are not so easily allayed, as the men who have come, to inhabit these mountains, from where they have been trained and educated in the civilization of modern nations. You may not believe this assertion; it is, however, no matter whether you do or do not, the fact remains unaltered, as well as the conviction of my own mind regarding it.

J27I do not know but the time may come, and that speedily, when I shall build a fort myself in this city, and those who are disposed can go into it with me, while the rest can stay out. When I see it is absolutely necessary to do this, I shall do it. If the people of Utah Territory would do as they were told, they would always be safe. If the people in San Pete County had done as they were told, from the beginning of that settlement, they would have been safe at this time, and would not have lost their cattle. The day before yesterday, Friday, July 29th, the Indians came from the mountains, to Father Allred's settlement, and drove off all the stock, amounting to two hundred head. If the people had done as they were told, they would not have suffered this severe loss, which is a just chastisement.

J27The word has gone out now, to the different settlements, in the time of harvest, requiring them to build forts. Could it not have been done last winter, better than now? Yes. Do you not suppose people will now wish they had built forts when they were told? If they do not, it proves what they have been all the time, shall I say fools? If that is too harsh a term, I will say they have been foolish. It is better for me to labor in building a house or a fort, to get out fencing timber, and wood to consume through winter, when I have nothing else to do, and not be under the necessity of leaving my grain on the ground to do those things. Harvest is no time to build forts, neither is it the time to do it when we should be plowing and sowing.

. And when you go into the harvest field, carry a good butcher knife in your belt, that if an Indian should come upon you, supposing you to be unarmed, you would be sure to kill him.

J27Does this language intimate anything terrific to you? It need not. If you will do as you are told, you will be safe continually. Secure your bread stuff, your wheat, and your corn, when it is ripe, and let every particle of grain raised in these valleys be put where it will be safe, and as much as possible from vermin, and especially from the Indians, and then build forts.

J27Let every man and woman who has a house make that house a fort, from which you can kill ten where you can now only kill one, if Indians come upon you. "Brother Brigham, do you really expect Indians to come upon us in this city?" This inquiry, I have no doubt, is at this moment in the hearts of a few, almost breathless with fear. Were I to answer such inquirers as I feel, I should say, it is none of your business; but I will say, you are so instructed, to see if you will do as you are told. Let your dwelling house be a perfect fort. From the day I lived where brother Joseph Smith lived, I have been fortified all the time so as to resist twenty men, if they should come to my house in the night, with an intent to molest my family, assault my person, or destroy my property; and I have always been in the habit of sleeping with one eye open, and if I cannot then sufficiently watch, I will get my wife to help me. Let an hostile band of Indians come round my house, and I am good for quite a number of them. If one hundred should come, I calculate that only fifty would be able to go to the next house, and if the Saints there used up the other fifty, the third house would be safe.

J27But instead of the people taking this course, almost every good rifle in the territory has been traded away to the Indians, with quantities of powder and lead, though they waste it in various ways when they have got it. The whites would sell the title to their lives, for the sake of trading with the Indians.

J27They will learn better, I expect, by and by, for the people have never received such strict orders as they have got now. I will give you the pith of the last orders issued—"That man or family who will not do as they are told in the orders, are to be treated as strangers, yea, even as enemies, and not as friends." And if there should be a contest, if we should be called upon to defend our lives, our liberty, and our possessions, we would cut such off the first, and walk over their bodies to conquer the foe outside.

J27Martial law is not enforced yet, although the whole territory is in a state of war, apparently, but it is only the Utah [Indians] who have declared war on Utah [Territory.] Deseret has not yet declared war; how soon it will be declared is not for me to say; but we have a right, and it is our duty, to put ourselves in a state of self defence.

J27If I wished to live away from the body of the people, my first effort should be directed towards building a good and efficient fort. When new settlements were made in the eastern countries, they built them of timber, and they were called "block houses." I would advise that every house in a new settlement should be made good for all the Indians that could approach it, with an intention to tear it down. If I did not do that, I would go to where I could be safe, I would take up my abode with the body of the people. I would take my family there at least. By taking this course, every person will be safe from the depredations of the Indians, which are generally committed upon the defenceless and unprotected portions of the community.

Let every man, woman, and child, that can handle a butcher knife, be good for one Indian, and you are safe.

J27I say to the Indians, as I have often said to the mob, go your length. You say you are going to kill us all off, you say you are going to obliterate the Latter-day Saints, and wipe them from the earth; why don't you do it, you poor miserable curses? The mob only had power to drive the Saints to their duty, and to remember the Lord their God, and that is all the Indians can do. This people are worldly-minded, they want to get rich in earthly substance, and are apt to forget their God, the pit from which they were dug, and the rock from which they were hewn, every man turning to his own way. Seemingly the Lord is chastening us until we turn and do His will. What are you willing to do? Would you be willing to build a fort, and all go in there to live? I tell you, you would have a hell of your own, and devils enough to carry it on. Do you suppose you will ever see the time you would do that, and live at peace with each other, and have the Spirit of the Lord enough to look each other in the face, and say, with a heart full of kindness, " Good morning, Mary," or "How do you do, Maria"? YOU WILL BE WHIPPED UNTIL you have the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ sufficiently to love your brethren and sisters freely, men, women, and CHILDREN; until you can live at peace with yourselves, and with every family around you; until you can treat every child as though it were the tender offspring of your own body, every man as your brother, and every woman as your sister; and until the young persons treat the old with that respect due to parents, and all learn to shake hands, with a warm heart, and a friendly grip, and say, "God bless you," from morning till evening; until each person can say, "I love you all, I have no evil in my heart to any individual, I can send my children to school with yours, and can correct your children when they do wrong, as though they were my own, and I am willing you should correct mine, and let us live together until we are a holy and sanctified society." There will always be Indians or somebody else to chastise you, until you come to that spot; so amen to the present Indian trouble, for it is all right. I am just as willing the rebellious of this people should be kicked, and cuffed, and mobbed, and hunted by the Indians, as not, for I have preached to them until I am tired. I will give no more counsel to any person upon the duties of self preservation; you can do as you please; if you will not preserve yourselves, I may reason with you until my tongue cleaves to the roof of my mouth, to no avail. Let the Lord extend the hand of benevolence to brother Walker, and he will make you do it by other means than exhortations given in mildness.

J27There are hundreds of witnesses to bear testimony that I have counselled this people, from the beginning, what to do to save themselves both temporally and spiritually.

J27When Father Allred was advised to adopt measures to secure themselves and their property, he replied, "O, I do not think there is the least danger in the world; we are perfectly able to take care of our stock, and protect ourselves against the Indians." All right, I thought, let circumstances prove that.

J27Now as difficulties surround them, they say to me, "Why, brother Brigham, if you had only told us what to do, we would have done it. Were we not always willing to take your counsel?" Yes, you are a great deal more willing to take it, than to obey it. If people are willing to carry out good counsel, they will secure themselves accordingly.

J27I have thought of setting a pattern, by securing myself; but were I to build a fort for myself and family, I should want about a legion of angels from the throne of God, to stay nine months with me, to get my folks willing to go into it. But I am so independent about it, I care not the snap of my finger for one of them. If my wives will not go into a place of security with me, it is all right, they can stay out, and I will go in and take my children with me. I say, I do not know but I may take a notion to set a pattern by building a fort; if I do, some one in this city may follow my example, and then somebody else, &c., until we have a perfect city of forts.

J27"Brother Brigham, do you really think we shall ever need them?" YES, I DO. All the difficulties there is in the community this year, is not a drop in comparison to the heavy shower that will come. "Well, and where is it coming from?" From hell, where every other trouble comes from. "And who do you think will be the actors?" Why, the Devil and his imps. [W. W. Phelps in the stand, We could not do very well without a devil.] No, sir, you are quite aware of that; you know we could not do without him. If there had been no devil to tempt Eve, she never would have got her eyes opened. We need a devil to stir up the wicked on the earth to purify the Saints. Therefore let devils howl, let them rage, and thus exhibit themselves in the form of those poor foolish Lamanites. Let them go on in their work, and do you not desire to kill them, until they ought to be killed, and then we will extinguish the Indian title, if it is required.

J27I wished to lay these thing before the people this morning, to answer a great many questions, and allay their fears. Yesterday, brother Kimball heard at his mill, ten miles north, that I had sent word to him, that the mountains were full of Indians, and he and the families with him were to move into the city; so they immediately obeyed this report. Brother Kimball came to me and inquired if I had sent such orders. I said, no. But it is all right, for I wanted the women and children from there. This shows the excited state of the people.

J27One thing more. I ask you men who have been with Joseph in the wars he passed through, and who were with him at the time of his death, what was it that preserved us, to all outward appearances? It is true, in reality, God did it. But by what means did He keep the mob from destroying us? It was by means of being well armed with the weapons of death to send them to hell cross lots. Just so you have got to do.

J27As for this people fostering to themselves that the day has come for them to sell their guns and ammunition to their enemies, and sit down to sleep in peace, they will find themselves deceived, and before they know, they will sleep until they are slain. They have got to carry weapons with them, to be ready to send their enemies to hell cross lots, whether they be Lamanites, or mobs who may come to take their lives, or destroy their property. We must be so prepared that they dare not come to us in a hostile manner without being assured they will meet a vigorous resistance, and ten to one they will meet their grave.

J27The Lord will suffer no more trouble to come upon us than is necessary to bring this people to their senses. You need not go to sleep under the impression that it is the north and south only that is in danger, and we are all safe here. Now mind, let this people here lie down to sleep, and be entirely off their watch, and the first thing they know, they are in the greatest danger. You must not desert the watch tower, but do as I do—keep some person awake in your house all night long, and be ready, at the least tap of the foot, to offer a stout resistance, if it is required. Be ready at any moment to kill twenty of your enemies at least. Let every house be a fort.

J27After the cattle were stolen at San Pete, a messenger arrived here in about thirty hours to report the affair, and obtain advice. I told brother Wells, "you can write to them, and say, 'Inasmuch as you have no cows and oxen to trouble you, you can go to harvesting, and take care of yourselves.'" If you do not take care of yourselves, brethren, you will not be taken care of. I take care of them that help themselves. I will help you that try to help yourselves, and carry out the maxim of Doctor Dick—"God helps them that help themselves."

J27I am my own policeman, and have slept, scores of nights, with my gun and sword by my side, that is, if I slept at all. I am still a policeman. Now is the day to watch. It is as important for me to watch now, as well as pray, as it ever has been since I came into this kingdom. It requires watching, as well as praying men; take turns at it, let some watch while others pray, and then change round, but never let any time pass without a watcher, lest you he overtaken in an hour when you think not; it will come as a thief in the night. Look out for your enemies, for we know not how they will come, and what enemy it will be. Take care of yourselves.

J27Again, let me reiterate to the sisters, do not be afraid of going into the harvest field. If you are found there helping your sons, your husbands, and your brethren, to gather in the harvest, I say, God bless you, and I will also.

J27Take care of your grain, and take care of yourselves, that no enemy come to slay you. Be always on hand to meet them with death, and send them to hell, if they come to you. May God bless you all. Amen.

(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 1: 172.)

Re: Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)?

Posted: January 7th, 2010, 12:23 pm
by tribrac
Wow, I don't think modern church members would like President Young very much.