LDS Freedom Forum

keeprunning wrote:I think it'd be good to truly study captain Moroni and Helaman and see what strategies they used and justifications for fighting/defending. Figuring out how to apply it to real life modern situations is the question. In my current life, I see no need to 'arm' myself, except spiritually/mentally. Who knows how the future will change.

keeprunning wrote:I think it'd be good to truly study captain Moroni and Helaman and see what strategies they used and justifications for fighting/defending. Figuring out how to apply it to real life modern situations is the question. In my current life, I see no need to 'arm' myself, except spiritually/mentally. Who knows how the future will change.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:Jason and anybody else if you're ever really going to drop the big coins, it's well worth the fees to go class III and get the good stuff!

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:http://www.westernfirearms.com/
Shop and see.

The Dillon M134D Gatling Gun is the finest small caliber, defense suppression weapon available. It is a six barreled, electrically driven machine gun chambered in 7.62mm NATO and fires at a fixed rate of 3,000 shots per minute. Gatling Guns typically feed from a 3,000 or 4,400 round magazine. They are capable of long periods of continuous fire without threat or damage to the weapon making them an excellent choice for defensive suppression.

Dillon Guns are reliable. The M134D has system life in excess of one million rounds and an average time between stoppage of 30,000 rounds. In the unlikely event of a stoppage the weapon can be serviced and made operational again in under a minute. The multi barrel design means that each barrel only experiences a 500 round per minute rate of fire. This allows for repeated long bursts of fire and a barrel group life of 100,000 rounds.

Jason wrote:

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:http://www.westernfirearms.com/
Shop and see.

I was just on there earlier...anything in particular I should be looking for?

I didn't see any of these -
http://www.dillonaero.com/
http://www.dillonaero.com/content/p/9/p ... dard_M134D

The Dillon M134D Gatling Gun is the finest small caliber, defense suppression weapon available. It is a six barreled, electrically driven machine gun chambered in 7.62mm NATO and fires at a fixed rate of 3,000 shots per minute. Gatling Guns typically feed from a 3,000 or 4,400 round magazine. They are capable of long periods of continuous fire without threat or damage to the weapon making them an excellent choice for defensive suppression.

Dillon Guns are reliable. The M134D has system life in excess of one million rounds and an average time between stoppage of 30,000 rounds. In the unlikely event of a stoppage the weapon can be serviced and made operational again in under a minute. The multi barrel design means that each barrel only experiences a 500 round per minute rate of fire. This allows for repeated long bursts of fire and a barrel group life of 100,000 rounds.

http://www.dillonaero.com/docs/dillonaerocatalog.pdf

Of course you empty the magazine in just over a minute....all it takes is one well aimed return shot!

DrJones wrote:In the Book of Mormon, we find several instances where the righteous armed themselves and were commanded to fight, e.g. under Alma (early chapters) and under Captain Moroni (later chapters in Alma).
Also 3 Nephi where the people gathered together to defend themselves against the Gadiantons.

OTOH, yesterday a good friend said getting guns and practicing, etc, "attracts" trouble, and we should rather have great faith like Enoch and trust the Lord to fight our battles, using the priesthood. He also pointed to D&C 45 (end) where the wicked are afraid to attack the New Jerusalem.

While I don't agree with the so-called "law of attraction", which smacks of new-age, his question is a good one -- how much should we PERSONALLY arm ourselves, or NOT? Should we expect the Lord to defend us, if we don't arm ourselves? Do we have the right to defend ourselves individually, or do we wait for the Prophet to command us?
Did the early Saints arm themselves? (say 60 to 300 AD, also the pioneers...)

I think this merits serious discussion, before TEOTWAWKI.

Original_Intent wrote:

Jason wrote:

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:http://www.westernfirearms.com/
Shop and see.

I was just on there earlier...anything in particular I should be looking for?

I didn't see any of these -
http://www.dillonaero.com/
http://www.dillonaero.com/content/p/9/p ... dard_M134D

The Dillon M134D Gatling Gun is the finest small caliber, defense suppression weapon available. It is a six barreled, electrically driven machine gun chambered in 7.62mm NATO and fires at a fixed rate of 3,000 shots per minute. Gatling Guns typically feed from a 3,000 or 4,400 round magazine. They are capable of long periods of continuous fire without threat or damage to the weapon making them an excellent choice for defensive suppression.

Dillon Guns are reliable. The M134D has system life in excess of one million rounds and an average time between stoppage of 30,000 rounds. In the unlikely event of a stoppage the weapon can be serviced and made operational again in under a minute. The multi barrel design means that each barrel only experiences a 500 round per minute rate of fire. This allows for repeated long bursts of fire and a barrel group life of 100,000 rounds.

http://www.dillonaero.com/docs/dillonaerocatalog.pdf

Of course you empty the magazine in just over a minute....all it takes is one well aimed return shot!

It's probably somewhat hard to make that well aimed return shot when you are downrange of 50 shots per second You just better hope nothing is left moving when your Commando minute is over. Swarzeneggerarian primal yell optional.

Dare I ask what one of these little bundles of love cost? Aside from the grand or two per firing minute it costs to feed?

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:My point has nothing to do with where to shop class 3, but that if you're going to spend the money, don't short change yourself, get the capability that makes the platform functional. Why let $200 and a few hurdles limit you to 16"+, unnecessary decibels that will give away your position and wake up the neighborhood, and select fire?

Class 3 might mean gatling, chain, machine...to you, to me it means legal suppression and short barreled rifles. The full-auto bit doesn't appeal to me much, but if I was dropping the coin, you'd better believe that I would buy something that can lay down serious cover fire. Anybody that knows the art of war ought to be able to appreciate all of the above.

Make no mistake, I can make due without a firearm at all, or with whatever option is available like any true operator. But given the budget I would certainly build to suit, and that without arbitrary constraints.

Stephen wrote:A little while back I put together an article about the doctrines surrounding this. Perhaps you might find some of the info and quotes you are looking for there. Long...but probably the best article I've ever put together...

http://preparenownewsletter.blogspot.co ... fense.html

History tells the tale that when this rule of law is strained enough...these bad guys do come out of the woodwork to prey upon the weak. Businesses are broken into...people are robbed or even killed for their possessions...the chastity of our women is taken by force...gross darkness and fear covers the land and the natural man and the devil reign. The good and yet foolish that have professed that anarchy is preferable to government see first hand their folly as that law that has protected them now disappears into the shadows leaving them naked to the cruelty of the coarsened.

And it doesn't take a sudden disaster for the bad guys to come out either. As the economy continues to look like the day of economic reckoning that Ezra Taft Benson spoke of in his teachings...and people continue to lose jobs...crime goes up and up! The local news reported a few weeks ago that burglaries are up 59% in South Sacramento over the last two months! Those reporting attributed this to having less parole officers and a strained economy. It is reasonable to suppose that if our economy continues in a downward spiral...that those percentages will rise as the desperate become more so and our riches become "slippery" as they fall into the hands of these desperate individuals.

While we may hope that disasters/societal distress and the subsequent evil acts that are spawned out of them would not happen in the future...prophecy would tell us that this is not to be the case. The Lord through His prophets has clearly spoken of an increase in the frequency of disasters...as well as and increase in the severity. The result of at least some of these disasters WILL bring people to violence against each other.
The Doctrine and Covenants 45:33 speaks of the calamities of earthquakes and desolation's that SHALL be...and a then mentions the resulting bloodshed...

"And there shall be earthquakes also in divers places, and many desolation's; yet men will harden their hearts against me, and they will take up the sword, one against another, and they will kill one another."

Joseph Smith gave added details about a future time of violence when he spoke this prophecy...

"I saw men hunting the lives of their own sons, and brother murdering brother, women killing their own daughters, and daughters seeking the lives of their mothers. I saw armies arrayed against armies. I saw blood, desolation, fires. The Son of man has said that the mother shall be against the daughters, and the daughter against the mother. These things are at our doors. They will follow the Saints of God from city to city. Satan will rage, and the spirit of the devil is now enraged. I know not how soon these things will take place; but with a view of them, shall I cry peace? No; I will lift up my voice and testify of them. How long you will have good crops, and the famine be kept off, I do not know; when the fig tree leaves, know then that the summer is nigh at hand." (Joseph Smith Teachings of the Prophet JS Section Four 1839-42, p.161)

It may be hard for those who have never known anything other than the days of prosperity to understand how things could get so bad that family members would turn on each other and kill their own flesh and blood. The reason for such behavior... or at least a contributing factor may be the coming famine that Joseph mentions at the end of his quote. Famines can dull the morals and proper reasoning of the usually moral. Famines have taken the lives of millions upon millions of people in the earths history and show that men commit great atrocities against their fellow man to get through them. There are sobering biblical recordings of some of these famines that as we sit in the cushy comfy armchair of life seem harm to fathom.

2 Kings 6:25-30 records the famine that took place during the Syrian siege of Samaria where people were boiling and eating their own children.

Lamentations 4:1-11 records the famine that took place as Jerusalem fell to Babylonia and the cruelty and cannibalism that resulted.

The great historian Josephus recorded the famine that happened in Jerusalem when it was besieged by the Romans in 70AD. He tells the story of a people gone insane...practicing all sorts of cruelty and lack of natural affection even for ones own family. He also tells of how people were breaking in doors of others homes and taking their food that they felt entitled to and torturing them to tell them where their food was hidden. Read Book 5 of the War of the Jews...Chapter 10.

Hopefully we are not so naive as to suppose that now we are all civilized and such things could not happen now! A couple of years ago I was talking with a police officer about preparedness. We got on the subject of food storage and he said "Yeah...I'm worried because I haven't stored anything". Then he pointed to the people on the street and said "None of these people have stored anything! When the food supply gets cut off...and it will...people will go nuts!" He went on to say incredibly candidly..."If I don't have food...I do have guns...and I will go and take it from whomever I have to!!!!!" He went on to tell me about how hard it was to defend a house and how no one could defend a home in the city forever. I couldn't believe it!!! Here...one of our police that many hold in such high regard was conceding that he would use his guns (he has an arsenal) and training as a police officer to take food for his family from other people!! At first I was stunned...but then I realised...that he was more in touch with reality than our average public is. He understands on some level what times of true distress can be like. I have since been trying to work with him to get his food storage together.

With a realization that there will be a time when anarchy will prevail...and the bad guys and good guys turned bad will come out of the woodwork and may seek to hurt you and yours...the prudent must ask questions such as...

"Do I need to protect myself and my family from people that would seek to kill us?"

"Can I expect that the Lord will protect me and what do I need to be worthy of that protection?"

"What will I do to protect my family? What weapons or training do I need?"

For many...the thought of ever having to take someone Else's life even in self defense is about as repugnant as a thought could be. This is good! We should tremble and shake at the thought of dispatching someone "unprepared to meet their God". Much like Nephi we should "shrink at the thought" of having to kill a man. An article called "Somebodys Going to Get Hurt" from the New Era magazine has excellent examples that should shape how we feel about violence. We must not buy into the deception that there is glory or some sort of satisfaction in killing as Hollywood would make it seem...regardless of how malicious or wrong the enemy is.

One should also read Alma chapter 48 for a clear understanding about how a disciple of Christ should feel about killing in self defense. We are to Bear no malice towards any man

Still...in spite of how we feel about having to kill...we must come to grips with the doctrinal reality that if we are to preserve our own lives or the lives of others in the days to come...we may have to kill in self defense and that such action is approved of the Lord.

In that New Era article Larry A. Hiller makes the point that...

"We need to be absolutely clear that there is such a thing as justified self-defense. You have the right to protect yourself against physical harm if you are attacked. You have a right to use physical force to protect virtue, family, freedom."

In 1969 President Ezra Taft Benson spoke of the need to protect and provide for our families...

"The scriptural parable of the five wise and five foolish virgins is a reminder that one can wait too long before he attempts to get his spiritual and temporal house in order. Are we prepared? A man should not only be prepared to protect himself physically, but he should also have on hand sufficient supplies to sustain himself and his family in an emergency." (Conference Report, April 1967, p.61)

In "The Family; A Proclamation to the World" this role of a man was reiterated...

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families."

Our pioneer fathers were no strangers to mobs and physical danger. They had been beaten by mobs...had family killed...and ultimately were driven to the State of Utah to finally settle in peace. Brigham Young had great concern that the Saints would think that the danger was past and that they had no need to defend themselves any longer...

"As for this people fostering to themselves that the day has come for them to sell their guns and ammunition to their enemies, and sit down to sleep in peace, they will find themselves deceived and before they know, they will sleep until they are slain. They have got to carry weapons with them, to be ready to send their enemy to hell cross lots, whether they be Lamanites or mobs who may come to take their lives, or destroy their property. We must be prepared that they dare not come to us in a hostile manner without being assured they will meet a vigorous resistance and ten to one they will meet their grave." (Brigham Young Journal of Discourses,Vol 1, P . 171 - 172, July 31, 1853)

Nine months ago in the September 2008 Ensign the Church reminded the Saints of their "duty" to defend themselves and lives of their families when they printed and article with various letters that the Prophet Joseph Smith wrote to his wife Emma. It was called "My Dear and Beloved Companion". They included this quote from a letter that Joseph wrote just before he died in the Carthage Jail:

"There is one principle which is eternal…It is the duty of all men to protect their lives and the lives of their households whenever necessity requires, and no power has a right to forbid it."

Joseph Smith did not say that it was a "good idea" to defend your family...he did not say "Don't worry about defending yourself...God will do that for you"...he said it was a "duty of all men". Brother Brigham did not say "It is the righteous who should expect God to fight their battles for them with no effort on their part". No...he said in so many words that those who thought there was no need to defend themselves were deceived and would wind up dead!

The Churches "Leaders Guide to Welfare: Providing the Lord's Way" reminds us of this very important principle..."He never forsakes us, but he does not do for us what we can do for ourselves"

"He never forsakes us, but he does not do for us what we can do for ourselves"

Stephen wrote:A little while back I put together an article about the doctrines surrounding this. Perhaps you might find some of the info and quotes you are looking for there. Long...but probably the best article I've ever put together...

http://preparenownewsletter.blogspot.co ... fense.html

bobhenstra wrote:

Stephen wrote:A little while back I put together an article about the doctrines surrounding this. Perhaps you might find some of the info and quotes you are looking for there. Long...but probably the best article I've ever put together...

http://preparenownewsletter.blogspot.co ... fense.html

Very nice article Stephen. I just forwarded it to my Bishop. Our little town is working hard on preparedness.

Bob