LDS Freedom Forum

gruden wrote:

MercynGrace wrote:Dr. Jones,
Interesting question you posed at the outset of this thread! I believe there is a time for both responses but one thing I keep in mind is that in spite of Capt. Moroni's efforts, the Nephites were decimated. Enoch's people, on the other hand, were taken up to heaven. So, if our path determines our destination, I know which course I prefer.
MnG

They were 'decimated' (at least some of them) because they were wicked. Moroni makes that quite clear. The ones that refused to arm themselves in defense of their rights and liberties were jailed and/or put to death.

Enoch also led his people to battle against the armies of the wicked that came to destroy them. The difference is his people were not wicked, and evidenced what kind of power the righteous can wield. Moroni was trying to do the same thing but too many Nephites were stubborn for too long and created too many factions and divisions.

It's not a question of whether or not to pick up a weapon in the defense of one's family and freedom of worship. It's a question of whether a people is united in righteousness. That's the difference between the two scenarios, not weapons.

Moses 6
31 And when Enoch had heard these words, he abowed himself to the earth, before the Lord, and spake before the Lord, saying: bWhy is it that I have found favor in thy sight, and am but a lad, and all the people chate me; for I am dslow of speech; wherefore am I thy servant?
32 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Go forth and do as I have commanded thee, and no man shall pierce thee. Open thy amouth, and it shall be filled, and I will give thee utterance, for all flesh is in my hands, and I will do as seemeth me good.
33 Say unto this people: Choose ye this day, to serve the Lord God who made you.
34 Behold my aSpirit is upon you, wherefore all thy words will I justify; and the mountains shall flee before you, and the rivers shall turn from their course; and thou shalt abide in me, and I in you; therefore walk with me.
35 And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with aclay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so.
36 And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people.
37 And it came to pass that Enoch went forth in the land, among the people, standing upon the hills and the high places, and cried with a loud voice, testifying against their works; and all men were aoffended because of him.
38 And they came forth to hear him, upon the high places, saying unto the tent-keepers: Tarry ye here and keep the tents, while we go yonder to behold the seer, for he prophesieth, and there is a strange thing in the land; a wild man hath come among us.
39 And it came to pass when they heard him, no man laid hands on him; for afear came on all them that heard him; for he walked with God.

Squally wrote:Enoch was considered a "wild man". Nobody dared touch him.
to become Enoch like, that would be absolutely amazing!

DrJones wrote:In the Book of Mormon, we find several instances where the righteous armed themselves and were commanded to fight, e.g. under Alma (early chapters) and under Captain Moroni (later chapters in Alma).
Also 3 Nephi where the people gathered together to defend themselves against the Gadiantons.

OTOH, yesterday a good friend said getting guns and practicing, etc, "attracts" trouble, and we should rather have great faith like Enoch and trust the Lord to fight our battles, using the priesthood. He also pointed to D&C 45 (end) where the wicked are afraid to attack the New Jerusalem.

While I don't agree with the so-called "law of attraction", which smacks of new-age, his question is a good one -- how much should we PERSONALLY arm ourselves, or NOT? Should we expect the Lord to defend us, if we don't arm ourselves? Do we have the right to defend ourselves individually, or do we wait for the Prophet to command us?
Did the early Saints arm themselves? (say 60 to 300 AD, also the pioneers...)

I think this merits serious discussion, before TEOTWAWKI.

freedomfighter wrote:I know this is coming in a little late, but I wanted to share a thought.
The question is: Do we defend ourselves or not. If we believe in the Book of Mormon, and if we are told to apply it today for ourselves then consider this:

Alma 43:47
And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.

Now rephrase it it just a little: And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the righteous contending with corrupt Government, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.

If God is unchangeable, then His words are too. We must be prepared to defend ourselves when called upon. It can be done with any weapon of choice. A gun, knife, hatchet, bat,; whatever is useful. Everybody is different, and whatever weapon is practiced with to the point of great efficiency is right for that person. Self defense classes wouldn't hurt either. When one learns how to break bones, crush windpipes, pop eardrums, demolish eyeballs, whatever is necessary to cripple (or worse) the enemy, your chances of survival increase. One has to become mad-dog mean. It's good to have gun use training as well. It is hard to hit a target when your hand is shaking violently. One learns how to hold a handgun correctly to avoid this problem. One can fix a large blade on the end of a rifle bore as well. Learn and be creative.
Just think about how many of God's great Prophets in the Book of Mormon were masters in the art of swordsmanship and other weapons.
Just like we feast upon the word of God to strengthen our spirit, and to help us avoid sin--knowing how to defend oneself is not unrighteousness, only the misuse of it.
I don't think God can use an empty cup. In other words, if a missionary were to go out knowing nothing of the Gospel, how effective would he be. When that same missionary is well read, and puts on the armor of God he becomes a great tool in God's hands.

Just a thought.

TonyOlsen wrote:

freedomfighter wrote:I know this is coming in a little late, but I wanted to share a thought.
The question is: Do we defend ourselves or not. If we believe in the Book of Mormon, and if we are told to apply it today for ourselves then consider this:

Alma 43:47
And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.

Now rephrase it it just a little: And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the righteous contending with corrupt Government, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion.

If God is unchangeable, then His words are too. We must be prepared to defend ourselves when called upon. It can be done with any weapon of choice. A gun, knife, hatchet, bat,; whatever is useful. Everybody is different, and whatever weapon is practiced with to the point of great efficiency is right for that person. Self defense classes wouldn't hurt either. When one learns how to break bones, crush windpipes, pop eardrums, demolish eyeballs, whatever is necessary to cripple (or worse) the enemy, your chances of survival increase. One has to become mad-dog mean. It's good to have gun use training as well. It is hard to hit a target when your hand is shaking violently. One learns how to hold a handgun correctly to avoid this problem. One can fix a large blade on the end of a rifle bore as well. Learn and be creative.
Just think about how many of God's great Prophets in the Book of Mormon were masters in the art of swordsmanship and other weapons.
Just like we feast upon the word of God to strengthen our spirit, and to help us avoid sin--knowing how to defend oneself is not unrighteousness, only the misuse of it.
I don't think God can use an empty cup. In other words, if a missionary were to go out knowing nothing of the Gospel, how effective would he be. When that same missionary is well read, and puts on the armor of God he becomes a great tool in God's hands.

Just a thought.

Well said.

Remember that when Captain Moroni came marching by, the people grabbed their swords and shields... they did NOT go out to obtain swords and shields... they already had them.

If the time ever comes where we would need to do the same, it would most likely already be too late (at that point) to obtain weapons.

ithink wrote:"Do we arm ourselves (Captain Moroni) or NOT (Enoch-like)"?

What did Joseph Smith do?

freedomfighter wrote:Stephen posted this. Good reading. Thanks Stephen.

http://preparenownewsletter.blogspot.co ... fense.html

"I saw men hunting the lives of their own sons, and brother murdering brother, women killing their own daughters, and daughters seeking the lives of their mothers. I saw armies arrayed against armies. I saw blood, desolation, fires. The Son of man has said that the mother shall be against the daughters, and the daughter against the mother. These things are at our doors. They will follow the Saints of God from city to city. Satan will rage, and the spirit of the devil is now enraged. I know not how soon these things will take place; but with a view of them, shall I cry peace? No; I will lift up my voice and testify of them. How long you will have good crops, and the famine be kept off, I do not know; when the fig tree leaves, know then that the summer is nigh at hand." (Joseph Smith Teachings of the Prophet JS Section Four 1839-42, p.161)

It may be hard for those who have never known anything other than the days of prosperity to understand how things could get so bad that family members would turn on each other and kill their own flesh and blood. The reason for such behavior... or at least a contributing factor may be the coming famine that Joseph mentions at the end of his quote. Famines can dull the morals and proper reasoning of the usually moral. Famines have taken the lives of millions upon millions of people in the earths history and show that men commit great atrocities against their fellow man to get through them. There are sobering biblical recordings of some of these famines that as we sit in the cushy comfy armchair of life seem harm to fathom.

2 Kings 6:25-30 records the famine that took place during the Syrian siege of Samaria where people were boiling and eating their own children.

Lamentations 4:1-11 records the famine that took place as Jerusalem fell to Babylonia and the cruelty and cannibalism that resulted.

The great historian Josephus recorded the famine that happened in Jerusalem when it was besieged by the Romans in 70AD. He tells the story of a people gone insane...practicing all sorts of cruelty and lack of natural affection even for ones own family. He also tells of how people were breaking in doors of others homes and taking their food that they felt entitled to and torturing them to tell them where their food was hidden. Read Book 5 of the War of the Jews...Chapter 10.

Hopefully we are not so naive as to suppose that now we are all civilized and such things could not happen now! A couple of years ago I was talking with a police officer about preparedness. We got on the subject of food storage and he said "Yeah...I'm worried because I haven't stored anything". Then he pointed to the people on the street and said "None of these people have stored anything! When the food supply gets cut off...and it will...people will go nuts!" He went on to say incredibly candidly..."If I don't have food...I do have guns...and I will go and take it from whomever I have to!!!!!" He went on to tell me about how hard it was to defend a house and how no one could defend a home in the city forever. I couldn't believe it!!! Here...one of our police that many hold in such high regard was conceding that he would use his guns (he has an arsenal) and training as a police officer to take food for his family from other people!! At first I was stunned...but then I realised...that he was more in touch with reality than our average public is. He understands on some level what times of true distress can be like. I have since been trying to work with him to get his food storage together.

With a realization that there will be a time when anarchy will prevail...and the bad guys and good guys turned bad will come out of the woodwork and may seek to hurt you and yours...the prudent must ask questions such as...

"Do I need to protect myself and my family from people that would seek to kill us?"

"Can I expect that the Lord will protect me and what do I need to be worthy of that protection?"

"What will I do to protect my family? What weapons or training do I need?"

For many...the thought of ever having to take someone Else's life even in self defense is about as repugnant as a thought could be. This is good! We should tremble and shake at the thought of dispatching someone "unprepared to meet their God". Much like Nephi we should "shrink at the thought" of having to kill a man. An article called "Somebodys Going to Get Hurt" from the New Era magazine has excellent examples that should shape how we feel about violence. We must not buy into the deception that there is glory or some sort of satisfaction in killing as Hollywood would make it seem...regardless of how malicious or wrong the enemy is.

One should also read Alma chapter 48 for a clear understanding about how a disciple of Christ should feel about killing in self defense. We are to Bear no malice towards any man
Still...in spite of how we feel about having to kill...we must come to grips with the doctrinal reality that if we are to preserve our own lives or the lives of others in the days to come...we may have to kill in self defense and that such action is approved of the Lord.

In that New Era article Larry A. Hiller makes the point that...

"We need to be absolutely clear that there is such a thing as justified self-defense. You have the right to protect yourself against physical harm if you are attacked. You have a right to use physical force to protect virtue, family, freedom."

In 1969 President Ezra Taft Benson spoke of the need to protect and provide for our families...

"The scriptural parable of the five wise and five foolish virgins is a reminder that one can wait too long before he attempts to get his spiritual and temporal house in order. Are we prepared? A man should not only be prepared to protect himself physically, but he should also have on hand sufficient supplies to sustain himself and his family in an emergency." (Conference Report, April 1967, p.61)

In "The Family; A Proclamation to the World" this role of a man was reiterated...

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families."

Our pioneer fathers were no strangers to mobs and physical danger. They had been beaten by mobs...had family killed...and ultimately were driven to the State of Utah to finally settle in peace. Brigham Young had great concern that the Saints would think that the danger was past and that they had no need to defend themselves any longer...

"As for this people fostering to themselves that the day has come for them to sell their guns and ammunition to their enemies, and sit down to sleep in peace, they will find themselves deceived and before they know, they will sleep until they are slain. They have got to carry weapons with them, to be ready to send their enemy to hell cross lots, whether they be Lamanites or mobs who may come to take their lives, or destroy their property. We must be prepared that they dare not come to us in a hostile manner without being assured they will meet a vigorous resistance and ten to one they will meet their grave." (Brigham Young Journal of Discourses,Vol 1, P . 171 - 172, July 31, 1853)