LDS Freedom Forum

boomer wrote:President Gordon B. Hinckley has given us three warnings concerning the Pharaoh’s dream:

“I wish to speak to you about temporal matters.” (Then he read the story from Genesis 41 about the Pharaoh of Egypt who had a dream that Joseph interpreted. He read the passage from the Bible about the dream of seven fat kine and seven lean kine, seven full ears of corn and seven withered ears of corn.) “Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future. But I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order...There is a portent of stormy weather ahead to which we had better give heed.” (Ensign, Nov. 1998, 51).


“I cannot forget the lesson of Pharaoh’s dream of the fat & lean kine and of the full and withered stalks of corn” “I cannot dismiss from my mind the grim warnings of the Lord as set forth in the 24th chapter of Matthew.” (Ensign, Nov. 2001, 72).


“Let us never lose sight of the dream of Pharaoh concerning the fat cattle and the lean, the full ears of corn, and the blasted ears; the meaning of which was interpreted by Joseph to indicate years of plenty and years of scarcity.” (Ensign, Nov. 2005)

This is a clear an unmistakable warning that we need to prepare our lives, our families and our homes for what is about to transpire! As I have heard it said before, you do not have to hear the Prophet or the Apostles say, “Thus saith the Lord”, before the words they speak, to know that they come from the Lord. I have always been taught that after the Lord gives a warning for the third time that the day of preparation is quickly coming to an end. When the Prophet uses words such as “I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order” and “I cannot forget the lesson” and “Let us never lose sight” and “That’s all I have to say about it, but I wish to say it with all the emphasis of which I am capable”, you can rest assured that the Lord is speaking through His Prophet. Now the last thing the leaders of our church want to do is to cause hysteria and panic the people of this church into doing something that they have been commanded to do ever since Brigham Young told the saints to store up seven years of food and supplies.

That got me to thinking. He said he wasn't predicting years of famine in the future, so what other events could transpire that would require members of the church to be so prepared. Hmm....

I tend to think that these things are to be considered on an individual basis, instead the church as a whole.
The reason being that we have seen these things come to pass for some families and communities more than others. Many have lost jobs, etc. We should all individually be prepared for what may happen, but I don't think some big thing will happen that will affect the whole church the exact same way.

Mullenite wrote:I’ve had some interesting thoughts just lately, concerning this post about Pres. Hinckley and the seven years of famine. Perhaps Cowell is really onto something here – - something I haven’t given enough heed to.

Prophets of old, especially in the OT like Isaiah, often spoke in ways that were hard to understand or interpret. But those who were inspired by the HG understood. Perhaps the Prophets of today, especially since the more outspoken Presidents McKay and Benson, have been speaking in ways similar to Isaiah of old. It seems there has been less talk about Secret Combinations in government and preparing for future catastrophes. But perhaps the prophets of today are speaking more in subdued tones to avoid the ire of U.S. hegemonic and corrupt government. Perhaps this is why we are admonished to read the BofM wherein it tells us, especially in Ether 8, that the Jaredite Nation was brought down by Secret Combos taking over their government, and that the Nephite Nation was brought down by Secret Combos taking over government, and that Moroni spoke prophetically about the same Secret Combos taking over our government today if we do not awaken to our awful situation.

Mullenite, I would agree, except in saying that they are not trying to raise the ire of the government. Isaiah couldn't speak clearly because of the wickedness of his generation. It was the church members who were listening to him that couldn't abide the truths that he knew.

I'm unwilling to believe that most of the church members today are willingly rejecting the Lord, but I do think many are being blinded by the craftiness of men. I know I was in the past and only recently have I realized that I have to question everything I've heard, especially those things coming from human sources. I also find that I have to be careful in talking to others. Because of the lies being perpetuated in our world, many people have been conditioned to reject things outright without thinking about them when they hear certain terms or ideas. I've learned that I have to be careful about who I'm speaking to and what I'm saying. I approach things differently with my family than I do here on this board. I hope to teach my family these truths, but I know I can't do it by giving them the straight truth because they would reject it straight out. I have to build on what they know and just hint at the deeper truths, hoping they'll look deeper.

Matthew28v19 wrote:This part of President Hinckley's "To the Boys and to the Men" talk from Oct 1998 really impressed upon my mind and stuck with me:

"What a wonderful feeling it is to be free of debt, to have a little money against a day of emergency put away where it can be retrieved when necessary."

"I urge you, brethren, to look to the condition of your finances. I urge you to be modest in your expenditures; discipline yourselves in your purchases to avoid debt to the extent possible. Pay off debt as quickly as you can, and free yourselves from bondage."

This is a part of the temporal gospel in which we believe. May the Lord bless you, my beloved brethren, to set your houses in order. If you have paid your debts, if you have a reserve, even though it be small, then should storms howl about your head, you will have shelter for your wives and children and peace in your hearts. That's all I have to say about it, but I wish to say it with all the emphasis of which I am capable."

It took 10 years but we were finally able to heed his counsel and it couldn't have come at a better time.


And from the his talk in Oct 2001 "Living in the Fulness of Times" he did mention the fulfilling of one prophecy:

The vision of Joel has been fulfilled wherein he declared:
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call" (Joel 2:28–32).

....doesn't sound like inflation/hyperinflation....if a small reserve saves the day!

A lot of good points in this thread that have been discussed recently....so I bumped it....

ready2prepare wrote:Count exactly 7 years from the date of this talk
given by President Hinckley in General Conference,
October 2001:
"Helping people prepare for uncertain times ahead:
http://www.preparednessyellowpages.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks Jason........so, I am bumping this one......hmmmmmmm ya gota wonder?

I never missed that part of the talk, not when it was originally given, nor since. I believed then and do now that he was referring to the specifics and generalities and laying it out as a type in generalities while differentiating (what was to happen) from the specifics of the Joseph story.

It has borne out to be prophetic as seven years from when it was given was the peak of the "good years," and he repeated it again at that time (2005) if I remember correctly.

But I strongly suspect that the period of lean years to follow is indefinite as the world will not soon recover from "it." There is no recovering from impossible to repay debt bondage.

Jason wrote:

Matthew28v19 wrote:This part of President Hinckley's "To the Boys and to the Men" talk from Oct 1998 really impressed upon my mind and stuck with me:

"What a wonderful feeling it is to be free of debt, to have a little money against a day of emergency put away where it can be retrieved when necessary."

"I urge you, brethren, to look to the condition of your finances. I urge you to be modest in your expenditures; discipline yourselves in your purchases to avoid debt to the extent possible. Pay off debt as quickly as you can, and free yourselves from bondage."

This is a part of the temporal gospel in which we believe. May the Lord bless you, my beloved brethren, to set your houses in order. If you have paid your debts, if you have a reserve, even though it be small, then should storms howl about your head, you will have shelter for your wives and children and peace in your hearts. That's all I have to say about it, but I wish to say it with all the emphasis of which I am capable."

It took 10 years but we were finally able to heed his counsel and it couldn't have come at a better time.


And from the his talk in Oct 2001 "Living in the Fulness of Times" he did mention the fulfilling of one prophecy:

The vision of Joel has been fulfilled wherein he declared:
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call" (Joel 2:28–32).

....doesn't sound like inflation/hyperinflation....if a small reserve saves the day!

A lot of good points in this thread that have been discussed recently....so I bumped it....

If we are hit with deflation, having no debt and a little savings could put one in a very powerful position to keep from being bought out by the powers that be.
I for one could not get these words from Gorden B Hinkley out of my head, so in 2008 before the collapse, I pulled all my 401K out of the stock marked, borrowed as much of it as I could and paid off my mortgage. I'm still paying back the 401K, but at least I own my home. I hope the worst that could happen if I can't pay off the 401K loan is I have to pay a penalty and a bunch of taxes, but I'll still have my home.

Tetraman wrote:

Jason wrote:

Matthew28v19 wrote:This part of President Hinckley's "To the Boys and to the Men" talk from Oct 1998 really impressed upon my mind and stuck with me:

"What a wonderful feeling it is to be free of debt, to have a little money against a day of emergency put away where it can be retrieved when necessary."

"I urge you, brethren, to look to the condition of your finances. I urge you to be modest in your expenditures; discipline yourselves in your purchases to avoid debt to the extent possible. Pay off debt as quickly as you can, and free yourselves from bondage."

This is a part of the temporal gospel in which we believe. May the Lord bless you, my beloved brethren, to set your houses in order. If you have paid your debts, if you have a reserve, even though it be small, then should storms howl about your head, you will have shelter for your wives and children and peace in your hearts. That's all I have to say about it, but I wish to say it with all the emphasis of which I am capable."

It took 10 years but we were finally able to heed his counsel and it couldn't have come at a better time.


And from the his talk in Oct 2001 "Living in the Fulness of Times" he did mention the fulfilling of one prophecy:

The vision of Joel has been fulfilled wherein he declared:
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call" (Joel 2:28–32).

....doesn't sound like inflation/hyperinflation....if a small reserve saves the day!

A lot of good points in this thread that have been discussed recently....so I bumped it....

If we are hit with deflation, having no debt and a little savings could put one in a very powerful position to keep from being bought out by the powers that be.
I for one could not get these words from Gorden B Hinkley out of my head, so in 2008 before the collapse, I pulled all my 401K out of the stock marked, borrowed as much of it as I could and paid off my mortgage. I'm still paying back the 401K, but at least I own my home. I hope the worst that could happen if I can't pay off the 401K loan is I have to pay a penalty and a bunch of taxes, but I'll still have my home.

....but you aren't paying interest on your home loan.....and the delay of the penalty and taxes is down the road.....and depending upon the speed of the collapse may never materialize....while in the meantime your cashflow is up allowing you to purchase necessities rather than pay interest payments to the bank.

...on the flip side - should inflation occur...you will be paying the penalty and taxes with cheaper dollars

My take? One has to tie in the 1998 talk to GBH's 2005 talk to understand the message. Rarely do I see this discussed???

Samuel the Lamanite wrote:My take? One has to tie in the 1998 talk to GBH's 2005 talk to understand the message. Rarely do I see this discussed???

It's been discussed a hundered times in various ways on differenct threads. I'd love to hear what you are thinking about it. Please share.

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:I never missed that part of the talk, not when it was originally given, nor since. I believed then and do now that he was referring to the specifics and generalities and laying it out as a type in generalities while differentiating (what was to happen) from the specifics of the Joseph story.

It has borne out to be prophetic as seven years from when it was given was the peak of the "good years," and he repeated it again at that time (2005) if I remember correctly.

But I strongly suspect that the period of lean years to follow is indefinite as the world will not soon recover from "it." There is no recovering from impossible to repay debt bondage.

Hmm, I can;t help but notice that another 7 years brings us up to 2012. You are likely right, the world won't recover from it, but maybe that phase will end and the cleansing will commence...(?)

Original_Intent wrote:

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:I never missed that part of the talk, not when it was originally given, nor since. I believed then and do now that he was referring to the specifics and generalities and laying it out as a type in generalities while differentiating (what was to happen) from the specifics of the Joseph story.

It has borne out to be prophetic as seven years from when it was given was the peak of the "good years," and he repeated it again at that time (2005) if I remember correctly.

But I strongly suspect that the period of lean years to follow is indefinite as the world will not soon recover from "it." There is no recovering from impossible to repay debt bondage.

Hmm, I can;t help but notice that another 7 years brings us up to 2012. You are likely right, the world won't recover from it, but maybe that phase will end and the cleansing will commence...(?)

The sequence would be 2001 to 2008.....and then 2008 to 2015....side note - when the Palmoni Scrolls have pegged the Savior's return. The 2005 talk was a 2nd warning shot across the bow that the tides were about to shift.....such as the 1998 talk was the precursor for the 2001 talk. That is if the whole interpretation is and 7 year assumption is correct????

So assuming we are talking about seven years, from 2008 to 2015, I only have to endure for four more years? Than what?

I was reading this chapter about Joseph and Egypt the other day, and thought about this talk and the 'cusp of depression' thread...

Genesis 47:13¶And there was no bread in all the land; for the afamine was very sore, so that the land of Egypt and all the land of Canaan fainted by reason of the famine.

14And Joseph gathered up all the amoney that was found in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, for the corn which they bought: and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh’s house.

15And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence? for the money faileth.

16And Joseph said, Give your cattle; and I will give you for your cattle, if money fail.

17And they brought their cattle unto Joseph: and Joseph gave them bread in exchange for horses, and for the flocks, and for the cattle of the herds, and for the asses: and he fed them with bread for all their cattle for that year.

18When that year was ended, they came unto him the second year, and said unto him, We will not hide it from my lord, how that our money is spent; my lord also hath our herds of cattle; there is not ought left in the sight of my lord, but our bodies, and our lands:

19Wherefore shall we die before thine eyes, both we and our land? buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants unto Pharaoh: and give us seed, that we may live, and not die, that the land be not desolate.

20And Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for the Egyptians sold every man his field, because the famine prevailed over them: so the land became Pharaoh’s.

21 And as for the people, he removed them to cities from one end of the borders of Egypt even to the other end thereof.

22 Only the land of the priests bought he not; for the priests had a portion assigned them of Pharaoh, and did eat their portion which Pharaoh gave them: wherefore they sold not their lands.

23 Then Joseph said unto the people, Behold, I have bought you this day and your land for Pharaoh: lo, here is seed for you, and ye shall sow the land.

24 And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones.

I thought it was interesting to see what people will do if they are desparate enough. Might happen again? We've seen it in shades of gray already in our past...trading freedom for security. Perhaps this is the position we put ourselves in if we do not heed the prophets...

(sorry if someone already posted this).

linj2fly wrote:I was reading this chapter about Joseph and Egypt the other day, and thought about this talk and the 'cusp of depression' thread...

Genesis 47:13¶And there was no bread in all the land; for the afamine was very sore, so that the land of Egypt and all the land of Canaan fainted by reason of the famine.

14And Joseph gathered up all the amoney that was found in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, for the corn which they bought: and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh’s house.

15And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence? for the money faileth.

16And Joseph said, Give your cattle; and I will give you for your cattle, if money fail.

17And they brought their cattle unto Joseph: and Joseph gave them bread in exchange for horses, and for the flocks, and for the cattle of the herds, and for the asses: and he fed them with bread for all their cattle for that year.

18When that year was ended, they came unto him the second year, and said unto him, We will not hide it from my lord, how that our money is spent; my lord also hath our herds of cattle; there is not ought left in the sight of my lord, but our bodies, and our lands:

19Wherefore shall we die before thine eyes, both we and our land? buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants unto Pharaoh: and give us seed, that we may live, and not die, that the land be not desolate.

20And Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for the Egyptians sold every man his field, because the famine prevailed over them: so the land became Pharaoh’s.

21 And as for the people, he removed them to cities from one end of the borders of Egypt even to the other end thereof.

22 Only the land of the priests bought he not; for the priests had a portion assigned them of Pharaoh, and did eat their portion which Pharaoh gave them: wherefore they sold not their lands.

23 Then Joseph said unto the people, Behold, I have bought you this day and your land for Pharaoh: lo, here is seed for you, and ye shall sow the land.

24 And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones.

I thought it was interesting to see what people will do if they are desparate enough. Might happen again? We've seen it in shades of gray already in our past...trading freedom for security. Perhaps this is the position we put ourselves in if we do not heed the prophets...

(sorry if someone already posted this).

Elder Marion G. Romney in his talk “The Perfect Law of Liberty” covered it as discussed here -
http://searchandponder.blogspot.com/201 ... ck_29.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tribunal wrote:So assuming we are talking about seven years, from 2008 to 2015, I only have to endure for four more years? Than what?

Prosperity....Zion???

What year did the money faileth? Was it the 4th or 5th year? I alway's thought it was the forth, but then to my knowledge Gen. does not specifically mention which year. Is there a timeline somewhere of when the money faileth?

linj2fly wrote: I thought it was interesting to see what people will do if they are desparate enough. Might happen again? We've seen it in shades of gray already in our past...trading freedom for security. Perhaps this is the position we put ourselves in if we do not heed the prophets...
.

Ya,
2 Kings 6
25 And there was a great famine in Samaria: and, behold, they besieged it, until an @#$’s head was sold for fourscore pieces of silver, and the fourth part of a cab of dove’s dung for five pieces of silver.

28...This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow.
29 So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

All I know is that our leaders and prophets have been CONSTANTLY warning and even pleading us to get our houses in order and to store enough food to sustain our families for at least a year. They've been hammering us with these warnings so often now that I think people are becoming numb to it, which is sad. Eventually something will happen and we will all realize why they have been pressing this issue. I'd hate to end up as 1 of the people who didn't heed the warnings. I think it's up to us to help open our brothers and sisters' eyes to the matter.

In trying to put a time frame on prophesied events I have in past messed up big time. So I caution against trying to nail down the window of 7 years of "famine". But back in 1999 Dr. Skousen gave me a copy of his notes that he used for a talk "What We MIght Expect In The Next 25 Years" The following is from the portion of those notes that I think applies to our present time.



Silence in heaven (to prepare the earth for the second coming) begins with the opening of the seventh seal (2000 A.D.) (Rev. 9:1) Second coming occurs at the end of the half hour of silence. (D&C 88:95) So how long is half an hour?

Half an hour by God’s time is approximately 21 years. (See Abraham 3:4 – 1000 divided by 24 equals just under 24 years for one hour of God’s time. One half of this equals just under 21 years for half an hour.) (See Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, Pg. 382)
Is our calendar accurate so that we know the opening of the seventh seal in 2000 A.D.? In 1582 Pope Gregory had astronomers correct the calendar according to the sun. Modern revelation uses the Gregorian calendar – D&C 20:1 and 21:4.

During these 21 years after the opening of the seventh seal, John saw two mighty dictatorships. (Revelation 13) The first dictatorship rises out of the sea. Could it be the Atlantic Treaty which fought World War II ? It set up the United Nations which combined the United States and Europe into the North Atlantic Treaty. (J. Ruben Clark, Stand Fast by Our Constitution, pp. 84 - 94) Today the United Nations is promoting The New World Order as the policeman of the world.

Notice that during the sixth seal, John saw the sealing of the 144000. (Rev. 7:3 - 8). However, this is an anointing in heaven. (See Alma 13:3 and commentary of Joseph Smith, Church History, vol. VI, p. 364). Nevertheless, the actual ministry of the 144000 here on earth is mentioned later in Revelation 14:1 - 5. They do not go forth until it is time to seal up the Saints who are to be “caught up” just before the Second Coming (D&C 77: 11) and seal up the wicked to destruction who reject the gospel.

The first dictatorship increases its power until it dominates the whole earth for 3 ½ years or 42 months. (Rev. 13:5). Then it turns on the saints (Rev. 13:7) and is wiped out. But John never tells us how this is done. His only commentary is Revelation 13:10.

The cleansing of America and wiping out of the first dictatorship is described in 3 Nephi 16: 10, 12; 20: 14 - 20 and by Joseph Smith in Teachings, p. 17 of the 1971 edition.

After the cleansing, all of the LDS are gathered to America. (D&C 45:71). Also those are invited who want peace and do not want to be drafted into the second dictatorship. (D&C 45: 68 - 69).

America is then sealed off from the rest of the world by violent seas so people can neither fly nor sail to reach Zion. (D&C 61:15 - 16). Luke saw these “roaring seas” (Luke 21: 25 - 26).

This isolation is an ideal situation for the building of the new Jerusalem and setting up numerous Zion cities in America. (D&C 45: 66 - 67).

It seems that during the cleansing of America there will be a gathering of the Jews back to Jerusalem. They will bring their wealth to beautify the city and rebuild the temple. (Ezekiel 34: 6 - 24 and Ezekiel 40 - 42).

Durang: Since you asked

First I think it is a real warning, not just a general wqarning with some far off date. Since reading posts here about the 2001 talk as the beginning of the good years, I has started me remembering something in my stdudies of Jewish writing of the Hasidic Jews. What brougt back my memery was that perhaps the end of thelean years is 2015, not 2012 as I have been supposing. No matter what the end date is, we are NOW in the lean years and we see this with continuious warfare and a sinking Global economy with thr trashing of most fiat currencies.

No back to the Hasidic Jews. I had a great file on this BUT lost it when my computer crashed. From what I can rememebr, the JEWISH calender which is quite different from the both our and the Hopi calender (2012), THE YEAR 2015 is the year that the Messiah is expected. Of course, in their case, it would be the first coming. I will try to relocate the list of events in the 2015 Jewish calender. Any help would be appreaciated.

What Pres. Hinkley was saying was " I am not predicting a literal famine""

What Pres. Hinkley was predicting was a financial downturn. "That is why he spoke of "financial markets" and "debt". And that is exactly what happened staring in 2008.

He even said he "hoped things would not be as bad as the Great Depression."

Now there was a very similar "get your houses in order" talk in General Conference in 1931 by President Ivins that is a very interesting talk.

http://tremen.dous.org/vision/item/25" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just be calm and turn to the Lord. It is not the result of any occurrence of the immediate past. We have been gradually drifting toward it for years and years, and personally I have known that it would come, and I bore witness of it from this stand to the people a year ago. I applied it to my own affairs. I pleaded with the people to put their houses in order and get out of debt, for I knew this was coming, because God himself through his Only Begotten Son had declared it.

There is nothing that men can do, nothing that we can do that will avert the fulfilment of those sayings, and it is not the design of our Father in heaven at all either. It is simply the result of our own lack of wisdom, of our own disposition to he selfish, of the accumulation of the wealth of the country in the hands of a few men which prevents its equal distribution among the masses.

Now, my brethren and sisters, if the Church has anything to say to you it will come from them direct and not from the writings of other men. It will come to you in a manner that you will understand it. It will not be speculative. It will come to you philosophically, truthfully and governed by common sense.

DaveDan: That is reassuring and comforting. Thank you.

In october or november 2008 President Packer said in stake conference to the state of Arizona that we are now in the famine years. So I would count from 2008 on.

Nan: Thanks for telling us what BKP said as he doesn't pull punches. I'm just curious why this waSN'T SAID TO ALL sAINTS? aRE THOSE IN az MORE SPECIAL THAN WE IN nc?