LDS Freedom Forum

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What is it you are exactly trying to say???

he is a good man and standing up for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

are you supporting the apostate giving the lecture in church or the Bishop who told him it was not apropriate? please elaborate.

will wrote:What is it you are exactly trying to say???

he is a good man and standing up for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

are you supporting the apostate giving the lecture in church or the Bishop who told him it was not apropriate? please elaborate.

yea, what are you supporting? The bishop did his job, and well at that. The guy is apostate, his words are deliberate and empty.

I'm wondering why and how this was even recorded? Did someone know this man would be talking and wanted to video it? Did this man have someone video it for him? Did just some random member of the church decide one day to video church? Or was this just set up? Interesting video, but I'd like more info about it before I take it at face value.

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minuet1 wrote:I'm wondering why and how this was even recorded? Did someone know this man would be talking and wanted to video it? Did this man have someone video it for him? Did just some random member of the church decide one day to video church? Or was this just set up? Interesting video, but I'd like more info about it before I take it at face value.

It's hard to say, but I would be very surprised if it wasn't set up. He obviously had prepared and pre-printed remarks. He apparently didn't have the sufficient conviction or belief in what he was saying to say it from his heart - he had to read it off a paper.

I seriously doubt whoever recorded it just happened to pull out a phone (or whatever) and start taking video spontaneously, and then post it on YouTube. There is also no evidence to back up the assertion that he was "escorted out" of the chapel.

It's a little sad, I guess, to see so many people in the church that think like Todd. It's not surprising, though. One-third of our brothers and sisters were already taken in by issues such as these. Unfortunately, there are going to be more casualties.

What can I say, he had a beard

pjbrownie wrote:What can I say, he had a beard

Oh no, not the beard thread again.

Renee wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubZQ5TgFRac

it is sad to see just how many MEMBERS support this...there is a bishop posting his comments here too...he is a good man and standing up for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The sifting of the tares I guess...sad.

Firstly , why is the guy giving his testimony not a good man?

Secondly, how is he opposing the Gospel of Jesus Christ in what he said there?

My thoughts are that if the Church is going to take any stand and ask their members to support this or that they should take the stand that government should have no part in who gets married and also that any choosing adults regardless of gender or plurality should be aloud to enter into an earthly marriage if that is their pursuit of happiness.

Too bad we don't live in the times where the Church takes a pro liberty position and asks their members to support libertarian causes not government control of pursuit of happiness between choosing adults.

Keep in mind the same robots that went out on the Prop 8 crusade in every congregation are probably the same ones that support the war on drugs and the war on terror and think Mitt Romney is a constitutionalist

By their fruits , I say.

Firstly , why is the guy giving his testimony not a good man?

Secondly, how is he opposing the Gospel of Jesus Christ in what he said there?

You need to read and understand the definition of apostasy O and try to figure out how that would apply in this instance. I can guarantee you that it most assuredly does here.

Mark wrote:

Firstly , why is the guy giving his testimony not a good man?

Secondly, how is he opposing the Gospel of Jesus Christ in what he said there?

You need to read and understand the definition of apostasy O and try to figure out how that would apply in this instance. I can guarantee you that it most assuredly does here.

So is their some previous information on this individual?

If so where can I find the evidence that would show he is not a good man and that he is opposing the gospel.

I don't see how that can be made based on this video.

So maybe I am jumping to conclusions by thinking that the opinions by the OP were based on just that vid.

I'd like to know more...

im not quite sure what he was saying. anyone able to elaborate/ clarify?

I'm really surprised at the level of patience to be honest. Testimonies are for bearing witness of the gospel. They are not for venting about the kids and the laundry, telling a neat story about fishing, or railing against an official position of the church. More adults need to take a cue from the kids and keep it to the Savior, the gospel, and the prophets.

obamohno wrote:So is their some previous information on this individual?

If so where can I find the evidence that would show he is not a good man and that he is opposing the gospel.

In addition to ChelC's great comments in the post immediately above, consider this:

What is the definition of "Apostate" if not standing in front of a congregation and openly denouncing the position of the church in a prepared statement?

There is no need for previous information on this individual.

You state "opposing the gospel" as if to separate it from "opposing the church". Is it o.k., in your opinion, to have a strong testimony of the restored Gospel and still oppose the church and by definition the prophet who currently leads it? I understand people may not understand every position the church takes on every issue, or may not immediately agree with everything the prophet says. This also happened with the Savior who addressed the issue by saying if we will do His will, we will know His doctrine. You don't have to understand and agree immediately with the position. But you do need to follow the direction given.

It seems to me like Todd was in open rebellion to the church/prophet, and therefor I have to question his testimony of the gospel itself.

It seems to me that Todd and his recording friend wanted to have a video to post on youtube so they could show the world how "controlling and brainwashing and blah, blah, blah" the mormon church is of its members. Its to bad.

In addition to ChelC's great comments in the post immediately above, consider this:

What is the definition of "Apostate" if not standing in front of a congregation and openly denouncing the position of the church in a prepared statement?

There is no need for previous information on this individual.

You state "opposing the gospel" as if to separate it from "opposing the church". Is it o.k., in your opinion, to have a strong testimony of the restored Gospel and still oppose the church and by definition the prophet who currently leads it? I understand people may not understand every position the church takes on every issue, or may not immediately agree with everything the prophet says. This also happened with the Savior who addressed the issue by saying if we will do His will, we will know His doctrine. You don't have to understand and agree immediately with the position. But you do need to follow the direction given.

It seems to me like Todd was in open rebellion to the church/prophet, and therefor I have to question his testimony of the gospel itself.

Exactly!! He is a poster child for apostasy. To gospel principles, and to the Church also.

Exactly!! He is a poster child for apostasy. To gospel principles, and to the Church also.

Amen to the Priesthood of that man.

What a punk, not the place for that kind of nonsense. I'm surprised that he was allowed to ramble on for so long.

I'm also quite sure that the guy behind the camera was his boyfriend no doubt. Well, I think I know what's coming "tods" way- one of the quickest ways out of the church is openly oposing it. Bad move Tod- but hey, I'm sure you can find lots of new friends who will think that you are a "hero" for your stand........

mchlwise wrote:

obamohno wrote:So is their some previous information on this individual?

If so where can I find the evidence that would show he is not a good man and that he is opposing the gospel.

In addition to ChelC's great comments in the post immediately above, consider this:

What is the definition of "Apostate" if not standing in front of a congregation and openly denouncing the position of the church in a prepared statement?

There is no need for previous information on this individual.

You state "opposing the gospel" as if to separate it from "opposing the church". Is it o.k., in your opinion, to have a strong testimony of the restored Gospel and still oppose the church and by definition the prophet who currently leads it? I understand people may not understand every position the church takes on every issue, or may not immediately agree with everything the prophet says. This also happened with the Savior who addressed the issue by saying if we will do His will, we will know His doctrine. You don't have to understand and agree immediately with the position. But you do need to follow the direction given.

It seems to me like Todd was in open rebellion to the church/prophet, and therefor I have to question his testimony of the gospel itself.

Is not supporting a Yes vote on Prop 8 in rebellion to the Church/Prophet and therefore you would question my testimony of the gospel since I think that government shouldn't have a say in the matter?

The savior asked us to befriend the constitution and there has been a mass apostasy in our church from that on the members part.

Heber J Grant pushed for prohibition as a prophet, I would not have supported that, would that have been in opposition to the Gospel and God?

He may have said these remarks at an inappropriate time but so do many people who give testimonies and I don't say they are an apostate or rebellion.

The spirit must manifest the truth of a Prophets words, I do not follow blindly and I follow the saviors direction to believe in liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

armedtotheteeth wrote:

In addition to ChelC's great comments in the post immediately above, consider this:

What is the definition of "Apostate" if not standing in front of a congregation and openly denouncing the position of the church in a prepared statement?

There is no need for previous information on this individual.

You state "opposing the gospel" as if to separate it from "opposing the church". Is it o.k., in your opinion, to have a strong testimony of the restored Gospel and still oppose the church and by definition the prophet who currently leads it? I understand people may not understand every position the church takes on every issue, or may not immediately agree with everything the prophet says. This also happened with the Savior who addressed the issue by saying if we will do His will, we will know His doctrine. You don't have to understand and agree immediately with the position. But you do need to follow the direction given.

It seems to me like Todd was in open rebellion to the church/prophet, and therefor I have to question his testimony of the gospel itself.

Exactly!! He is a poster child for apostasy. To gospel principles, and to the Church also.

If all the info you got is that video and your jumping to these conclusions , man, I say that's quite a judgment.

What a punk, not the place for that kind of nonsense. I'm surprised that he was allowed to ramble on for so long.

I'm with you Mosby. This guy is a punk. It reminds me of those freaks who invaded the Catholic service a while back making a mockery of their worship service. My Christian spirit would be tested to the limit with those kinds of jerks. I'm afraid I would practice the laying on of hands with a couple solid right crosses to the jaw.

Mosby wrote:

Exactly!! He is a poster child for apostasy. To gospel principles, and to the Church also.

Amen to the Priesthood of that man.

What a punk, not the place for that kind of nonsense. I'm surprised that he was allowed to ramble on for so long.

I'm also quite sure that the guy behind the camera was his boyfriend no doubt. Well, I think I know what's coming "tods" way- one of the quickest ways out of the church is openly oposing it. Bad move Tod- but hey, I'm sure you can find lots of new friends who will think that you are a "hero" for your stand........

Surely this was not appropriate, but either is many of the things that a majority of the LDS have sustained by their governments and some people become disenfranchised by the difference in what the people do vs the doctrine. If he believes in the calling of Joseph Smith and the Gospel, I hope he believes in that and realize the people are not true the Gospel is true.

If I based on my faith on the people, I would be building my house upon sand. I say we show love and mercy and understanding and not be quick to judge someone.

After all the verdict is not in if your born gay or not and I believe that lovers of liberty should not use government to intrude on someones personal happiness between choosing adults (maybe I am in the minority here in this thread who thinks this, which is also unfortunate)

This happened in my sister's ward. This isn't Todd's ward. It is Todd's aunt's ward. Todd is apparently gay. His aunt had written him a letter saying that she was sorry he was having a hard time, but she had to support the church. The gentleman that "escorted" Todd out, was a gentleman that came in with him and sat through the meeting with him and then left with him. The congregation was is shock. No one was unkind to Todd or his associates.

This video is a misrepresentation of the facts.

Actually what is unfortunate here ob is that you seem totally clueless to what Apostasy intales.

"I will give you one of the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom. It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all Eternity that that man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is in the high road to apostasy and if he does not repent will apostatize as God lives."

Joseph Smith
"The Words of Joseph Smith", p. 413


"Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism. It is a retrograding and devolutionary process. The seeds of doubt are planted by unscrupulous or misguided people, and seldom directed against the doctrine at first, but more often against the leaders."

"The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball", p.462

Mark wrote:Actually what is unfortunate here ob is that you seem totally clueless to what Apostasy intales.

"I will give you one of the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom. It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all Eternity that that man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is in the high road to apostasy and if he does not repent will apostatize as God lives."

Joseph Smith
"The Words of Joseph Smith", p. 413


"Apostasy usually begins with question and doubt and criticism. It is a retrograding and devolutionary process. The seeds of doubt are planted by unscrupulous or misguided people, and seldom directed against the doctrine at first, but more often against the leaders."

"The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball", p.462

Your missing my point, the venue he chose was inappropriate , but are you saying anything but a Yes position on Prop 8 means your on your way to apostasy?

Are you saying that if you disagree with this position and criticize it in front of fellow members when discussing it , I am on my way to apostasy.

I agree, he could be very well on his way, or he could repent and come back, who knows, based on this video, you guys are just speculating and judging someone to a horrible result.

Now imagine if people are born gay, do you think people should use government to enforce certain moral positions on other adults just because of the way they are born?

Lets think a little here instead of be quick to judge.

Joseph Smith taught it is ok for saints to err in doctrine and he expressed how nice it is to not be trampled on because of his different views about certain subjects that in this church you can.

So if your objection is the venue in which he chose, I agree, but this is one instance, one mistake and unless you have evidence of a long pattern and just not an act of misplaced passion this time, then look in the mirror.

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