What if the mark of the Beast is NOT an RFID chip?

[LDSNZ]

We need to stay flexible in our thinking.

Amen.

[gruden]

The system by that time will be publicly Luciferian - there will be strong elements of idolatry and human sacrifice which will mark it as very evil to all who have eyes to see. Also, acceptance of the mark will represent a declaration of allegiance to Lucifer - and rejection of the mark will represent open rebellion against him. This is the most important element of the mark.

Reading the below scriptures, while it could certainly be so, I don't see it necessarily as an open declaration against God. It's a buy-in to a system. It's the easy way out. It's a trap. That's why John is telling us to exercise wisdom. Besides, is idolatry not already rampant in society? Babylon IS idolatry.

Reading verse 14 carefully, the mark of the beast may actually be a simulation of the wound the beast suffered and recovered from. It is a celebration of the beast having survived. That doesn't sound like an RFID chip to me. I do agree that it has ritualistic overtones, although you may have to be paying attention to realize that (again, John enjoins wisdom - ie. awareness of what's really going on).

Even if I'm off the mark, it seems clear that vaccination is a conditioning process to submitting to the whims and wisdom of evil men. If it is not what John was referring to, it is a type of those things, because the penalties for not going along are eerily similar...

Revelation 13
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

[LDSNZ]

it seems clear that vaccination is a conditioning process to submitting to the whims and wisdom of evil men.

I agree that vaccinations are part of the Illuminati, New World Order depopulation agenda.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Another interpretation I've heard concerning this scripture, is that it might be a computer?

Hope it's not to far away when the prophets start expounding the scriptures. In particularly Revelation 13 & others like it.

[Rosabella]

Mark of the Beast

The mark may very well be a chip that we have to take once we have taken initiations into Lucifer's Church. But no matter what exactly the "Mark" is, it will be token of having made covenants with Lucifer, not merely doing evil.

I believe the Mark of the Beast is far more real than a figurative symbol of one form or another of wickedness. Wither that be money, or debt or any other theory. We as Latter-day Saints take upon a covenants with a sealing in the Temple. Lucifer’s followers plan to do the same and are already taking these initiations. We read about their secret oaths and covenants in the scriptures. They are real today as they were then. We are dealing with the Church of the Devil not a mere worldly temptation. In the last days Lucifer’s powers heighten to the point his literal Church is openly on the earth.
In Revelations “John sees another beast, one that exercises great evil through religious power (the ecclesiastical aspects of his kingdom). The followers of this beast are sealed in their foreheads to mark their allegiance. Satan works many miracles and deceives much of mankind. (Rev. 13:11–18.)”

Helena Blavatsky, Alice Bailey, David Spangler and many other leading occultists clearly state in their writings about the world-wide initiations into the new age religion that are to come.


David Spangler was the co-director of the Findhorn Foundation and is Founder-director of Lorian Association. He is a new-age occultist who overtly states that there will be initiations into the new age and that they are Luciferic.

These are quotes from his book “Reflections on the Christ”

“Lucifer comes to give us the final gift of wholeness. If we accept it then he is free and we are free. That is the Luciferic Initiation. It is one that many people now, and in the days ahead, we’ll be facing, for is an initiation into the new age. It is an initiation of leaving the past and moving into the new, shedding our gu
ilts and fears, our anxieties, our needs, our temptations and becoming whole and at peace because we have recognized our inner light and the light that unfolds us, the light of God.”


”Theosophist Helena Blavatsky is often called the mother of the New Age Movement. She had at one time a magazine called Lucifer and she talks throughout all her books about initiations.


Alice Bailey in her books discusses the different stages of initiations. When she first printed her books she named their publishing company “Lucifer Publishing Company”. By 1925 the name was changed to Lucis Publishing. “Lucifer” and “Lucis” come from the same word root, lucis being the Latin genitive case meaning of light. She talks about a new-age initiation in The Externalization of the Hierarchy on page 575

“ This first great initiation will be objectively staged and the general public will recognize it as a major rite and ritual of the new religious institution of the period.”


All the above authors and many others talk of initiations into a one world religion. All of the proponents of these initiations claim Peace. Through these initiations the world will once and finally become at peace under their “Christ” which they make very clear is not Jesus of Nazareth. He is the Christ that according to them overshadowed Jesus of Nazareth. We would call him the anti-Christ.

We are dealing with Lucifer’s Church not merely temptations from him. We will have to choose wither we join the Church of Christ or the Church of the Devil. It is not just in our actions and deeds, it is a literal Church with oaths and covenants. They exist now and are at this very time undergoing initiations.

The new age occult spirituality is the fastest growing way of spirituality in the world right now. In these writings along with Barbara Marx Hubbard’s books it is made clear that those that are unwilling to join this “New Spirituality” need to be cleansed “killed” off the earth for their plan to be established. All believers in a God that we are to submit our will and who judges us is considered evil and a cancer on the planet that must be cleansed off. The religions that believe this are: Christianity, Judaism and Islam. All of these are explained to be the cause of all the problems on the planet. Therefore all must be destroyed. The only spirituality that is allowed is the spirituality of the divine within, the belief that each of us is God and there is no sin. The great entity that is helping the planet to evolve to this “truth” or understanding is named Lucifer. Once the majority on the planet start following the basic beliefs of this spirituality (which a huge part our now) once it reaches a certain critical mass they will come out more in the open what the real teachings are. Their organization will then be openly declared to be Lucifer’s Church.

[ithink]

I came across something interesting recently that got me thinking and I wanted to put it out there for the deep thinkers that come this way.

What if the mark of the beast isn't an implanted chip, as many have postulated to the point where everyone considers it the honest truth but is instead... a vaccination mark?

The reason I'm considering this is because I came across a hint in my reading that TPTB might be getting ready to put a lot of pressure on people to get vaccinated this fall. This could include losing one's job (these kinds of threats have been made in the past regarding workers getting flu shots at nursing homes, hospitals, and schools) and even being denied access to banking services (kind of a clever way of getting around a bank holiday, don't you think?). If you lose your job and can't use banking services (no ATM, debit/credit cards, electronic bill paying, etc.) then that severely hampers your ability to buy and sell, doesn't it? It especially does for those who are unprepared, which is most people. And what about families where both parents work but the kids have to stay home because they aren't vaccinated?

WHO has already come out and basically equated vaccination resistors with criminal conduct. Some countries in Europe, such as Greece, have already mandated all their citizens to get vaccinations with no exceptions. There is large momentum building here. When people start getting sick and even dying, I can easily see the pressure being put on people to get vaccinated.

What will you do? Have you researched vaccinations, particularly the H1N1 vaccine, or are you already signed up to get yours because you're scared and believe you're acting prudently?

Do you know what an adjuvant is? How about thimerosal? Do you know what they used to culture the vaccines? Did you ever wonder how they could rush a medication for billions of people on the market with only six days testing? If H1N1 is mutating so fast, how would they even know which strain to vaccinate against? Why would they put industrial detergents in it? Why have all the vaccine companies been granted complete immunity from legal actions against their product?

And there are probably many other good questions, too. I hope everyone has taken time to pray and ponder about this before letting their kids and spouse get this stuff pumped into their bloodstreams. If this turns out to be a scriptural twist, you might be falling headlong into the Beast's system.

The church is big on vaccinations. Oh well, so much for that theory. I wonder if Mark will weigh in on what the mark is.

[Mark]

I wonder if Mark will weigh in on what the mark is.

If you ask some people on this forum mate they will tell you that I am the mark of the beast and my DNA will somehow get implanted into your forehead or right hand if you aren't careful.

Actually the truth of the matter is that I think Apostate Christianity has literalized those spiritual prophesies and figurative signs to the point of argumentum ad ridiculum. (Hows that three?) John clearly says that those who worship the beast and receive the mark will be tormented forever with fire and brimstone. In other words they will be BBQing with thermite for a long long time. Now for this to happen I would say someone would have to have done something much more dramatic than take a flu shot or get a Visa card implant to buy groceries.

[Rosabella]

I wonder if Mark will weigh in on what the mark is.

Actually the truth of the matter is that I think Apostate Christianity has literalized those spiritual prophesies and figurative signs to the point of argumentum ad ridiculum. (Hows that three?) John clearly says that those who worship the beast and receive the mark will be tormented forever with fire and brimstone. In other words they will be BBQing with thermite for a long long time. Now for this to happen I would say someone would have to have done something much more dramatic than take a flu shot or get a Visa card implant to buy groceries.

I concur. Though if it is made clear that you have to take initiations (oaths and covenants) with Lucifer and denounce that there is a God to be a recipient of such visa card implant than we have the dramatic version that we are looking for. That is what the occult has planned in the initiations that they have well documented. It will not be a mark that is easily confused. Just as our endowments are not easily confused to be something else when we receive them. It is hard to imagine a world so wicked that people would choose to take oaths and covenants with Lucifer but they are already doing it. We sadly have entered that time. Now it is being done privately but soon when the world is more ripe they plan on doing it on a world scale. See my earlier post.

[Mark]

I wonder if Mark will weigh in on what the mark is.

Actually the truth of the matter is that I think Apostate Christianity has literalized those spiritual prophesies and figurative signs to the point of argumentum ad ridiculum. (Hows that three?) John clearly says that those who worship the beast and receive the mark will be tormented forever with fire and brimstone. In other words they will be BBQing with thermite for a long long time. Now for this to happen I would say someone would have to have done something much more dramatic than take a flu shot or get a Visa card implant to buy groceries.

I concur. Though if it is made clear that you have to take initiations (oaths and covenants) with Lucifer and denounce that there is a God to be a recipient of such visa card implant than we have the dramatic version that we are looking for. That is what the occult has planned in the initiations that they have well documented. It will not be a mark that is easily confused. Just as our endowments are not easily confused to be something else when we receive them. It is hard to imagine a world so wicked that people would choose to take oaths and covenants with Lucifer but they are already doing it. We sadly have entered that time. Now it is being done privately but soon when the world is more ripe they plan on doing it on a world scale. See my earlier post.

Indeed Bella. Hey have you heard anymore about that spooky Maitreya dude? I had thought that Creme was going to make him more visable. Also anything more about "The Elders" (talk about an adversarial imitation!) brought together by Mandela of which Peanuts Carter was one of the chosen ones? Calm before the storm?

[Rosabella]

Mark

Here is something interesting. The Elders is scary just as the group that is known to the world by that name:

http://www.theelders.org/"

"The Elders do not hold public office and have no political or legislative power. Because they are not bound by the interests of any single nation, government or institution, they are free to speak boldly and with whomever they choose on any issue, and to take any action that they believe is right."

When undertaking initiatives, the Elders are committed to listening to the views of all groups and individuals – and especially women and young people. The Elders work both publicly and behind the scenes and at all levels - local, national and international - lending support and advice when invited, and sometimes when it is not."

They are above the nations of the world? And even lending support and advice when it is not asked for and behind the scenes.


Check this reference out that Barbara Marx Hubbard says about people she calls the Elders:

http://watchmannewsletter.typepad.com/n ... video.html

Pastor Joe Schimmel, in his article "The Coming Persecution" explains:

http://www.blessedhopechapel.org/articl ... ution.html

I own Barbara Marz Hubbard's books and this quote by Joe Schimmel is quite accurate.

New Age leader, Barbara Marx Hubbard has stated, "people will either change or die," for "that is the choice." According to those who would concur with Hubbard, Christians will need to be more open minded so they too can receive the mark of the Antichrist. If they will not join with the global community and its agenda, they will be killed by the "opened minded" New Agers. She states that, "This act is as horrible as killing a cancer cell. It must be done (or the sake of the future of the whole. So be it; be prepared for the selection process which is now beginning. We, the elders, have been patiently waiting until the very last moment before the quantum transformation, to take action to cut out this corrupted and corrupting element in the body of humanity. It is like watching a cancer grow; something must be done before the whole body is destroyed.... The destructive one fourth must be eliminated from the social body."


She talks about the "elders" in her books. They are the ones that will decided the selection process (who lives and who dies) It is very interesting that we have The Elders that are now out in the open.... I think there is much more to this then just a simple Coincidencec of in names. I have been waiting for a group called "The Elders" to emerge. I find it more than interesting that it has been created and who is part of it.

As for Maitreya his still up to his old stuff. No emergence yet, but still says it will be soon. He is mostly focusing on the destruction of governments and the "Space Brothers/Aliens comming to be known outwardly in the world.

http://www.share-international.org/maga ... revelation

He says:

"Far from quiet acceptance of unpopular laws, peoples in many countries now demonstrate and demand change. With the exception of those countries under tight military rule, the people, more and more, are demanding to be heard, to have their needs addressed, and bad laws righted. As the beneficent energies of Aquarius gain in potency, this growing power of the people will multiply and become the most powerful voice on Earth. So much is this the case, even now, that governments of all kinds are forced to take account of the peoples’ reaction to laws which deeply concern their welfare. It becomes increasingly difficult for governments to govern along strictly factional lines. Much government action is secretive and obscure, much is done ‘behind the scenes’ of which the people never hear, but generally, governments, at least in the so-called ‘democratic’ world, are careful not to rouse the ire or discontent of the people.'

Major area

There is one major area in which this is assuredly not the case. For over sixty years, governments worldwide have withheld from the people the reality of ‘UFOs’ or ‘flying saucers’. Further, they have sought by all means to denigrate the occupants of these visiting craft as ‘aliens’, destructive and harmful to the people of Earth. To keep their populations under control, and to avoid ‘panic’, they have denied the experience of hundreds of thousands of intelligent, open-minded citizens. They have thus created a major myth: “‘flying saucers’ do not exist but they are dangerous and rapacious to men of Earth”! Likewise, they have taught the people to deride the notion that crop circles are a legacy from Space, yet every government has unassailable proof of the existence, creativity and superior technology of these brave and harmless visitors from the sister planets of our System. Our profound ignorance of the subtle planes of matter has allowed the major governments of the world to maintain this deception for so long.

Revelation

At last the time of revelation has arrived. For no longer will government agencies hide the truth from men of Earth: their brotherhood with the far-off planets of our Solar System. Already, the “star-like luminary”, the Herald of Maitreya’s emergence, is showing people worldwide that for years they have been deceived by their governments. You may be sure that Maitreya will reveal the truth of our relationship with the other planets, and of the co-operation which for long has continued between us. It is in truth the time of revelation."

Maitreya believes in the distruction of Governement of the world. To tear down the old to build "his" new governmental structure. That will be done with the assistance of the Space Brothers. They are explained to be the fallen angels, not just merely extratrestrials as many think they mean. They admit they are the Masters of Wisdom that include Lucifer as the God of the planet.

[LDSNZ]

“No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation.”

David Spangler is Director of Planetary Initiative for the United Nations.

[Rosabella]

“No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation.”

David Spangler is Director of Planetary Initiative for the United Nations.

If you could share the reference for this I would appreciate it. There are many locations on the internet and in books that refer to him holding this title but I have not found one that is an original, just hearsay. I have lots of data on David Spangler, but no true foundation for this title. He was with Findhorn Foundation and they are connected with the UN.

Quote from http://www.Findhorn.org

"On December 8, 1997 the Findhorn Foundation was approved for formal association with the United Nations, through the Department of Public Information, as a recognised Non-Governmental Organisation. This was the culmination of a series of official collaborations between the UN and the Findhorn Foundation."

Quote from http://www.Findhorn.org under history;

'In 1970 a young American spiritual teacher named David Spangler arrived in the community and with his partner Myrtle Glines helped to define and organise the spiritual education processes that have been a central pillar of the Findhorn community ever since. A curriculum was established and the work of the ‘University of Light’ began. David and Myrtle lived in the community for three years, during which Findhorn Press published many of David's visionary writings. Today we run almost 200 week-long courses every year as well as conferences, trainings and our busy Outreach programme of educational workshops taken around the world by our workshop leaders.'

http://www.Lorian.org
This is from Lorian Association regarding David's Bio.

"Who is David Spangler?

Since 1964 David Spangler has been an author and teacher of spirituality. He began his career at nineteen as the keynote speaker at a national conference in Phoenix, Arizona, on "Youth and the New Age." The success of that talk led to other invitations, and a year later he left college, where he was studying molecular biology, and under guidance from inner sources, moved to Los Angeles where he became a featured speaker at the Fellowship of Universal Guidance.

This led to further invitations from other groups, and in 1966 he moved to Redwood City on the San Francisco peninsula where he taught classes and lectured on spirituality, the Western Esoteric Tradition, and practical mysticism.

In 1970 he visited the Findhorn Foundation community in Northern Scotland where he was invited to become its co-director and to be a teacher-in-residence. He lived and worked in the community until 1973, becoming the founder of its educational program.

Along with several friends and colleagues from Findhorn, he returned to the United States in 1973, and in 1974 he joined with them to create the Lorian Association, a non-profit spiritual educational foundation, which remains to this day the organization for which he works. In 1984, the Lorian Association moved to Issaquah, Washington where it is today.

In the years following his return from Scotland, David has developed and taught classes at a number of institutions, including the University of Wisconsin, Seattle University, Bastyr University, and the California Institute of Integral Studies. Also, since 1974 he has been a Fellow of the Lindisfarne Association—an association of scientists, artists, philosophers, economists, and spiritual leaders working at the cutting edge of scientific and cultural transformation.

His current work involves developing and teaching a spiritual practice called Incarnational Spirituality. His books include Emergence; The Call; Everyday Miracles; Parent as Mystic, Mystic as Parent; Blessing: The Art and the Practice; The Story Tree; Manifestation: Creating the Life You Love; and The Incarnation Card Deck.

David is happily married to Julia Manchester whom he met at Findhorn in 1971. They have four children ranging in age from twenty-five to fourteen. He considers being a parent his primary spiritual practice."



If you have any other data backing that he was the Director of Planetary Initiative for the United Nations that would be very helpful. Right now there does not appear to be verifiable data in support of this common claim. It would be tremendously momentous if it can be verified. This does not in anyway negate the centrality of his role in the establishment of a world wide Luciferian Church and global government.

Thanks for your help.

[kathyn]

Thanks again Bella for new information. I had not heard of "the elders" before. It seems like we're approaching some winding up scenes for the NWO now.

[ready2prepare]

If you have any other data backing that he was the Director of Planetary
Initiative for the United Nations that would be very helpful. Right now
there does not appear to be verifiable data in support of this common
claim. It would be tremendously momentous if it can be verified. This
does not in anyway negate the centrality of his role in the establishment
of a world wide Luciferian Church and global government.

Thanks for your help.

I have evidence that Spangler was a Board member of Planetary
Initiative For the World We Choose at this link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cYg6H2 ... er&f=false

The address of this group at one time was:
Planetary Initiative for the World We Choose
c/o Planetary Citizens
777 United Nations Plaza
New York, New York 10017
U.S.A.

Info obtained at this link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JRhl-v ... 22&f=false

More info to follow shortly.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Sharon (Making the Best of Basics) in Mississippi

[ready2prepare]

OK Bella, here's some more good stuff for 'ya:

In early 1982 Planetary Citizens and several other groups kicked
off a consciousness-raising project called "Planetary Initiative for
the World We Choose," a "coalition effort which involve[d] literally
hundreds of groups and organizations, large and small, worldwide."
Study groups were formed, a newspaper called The Initiator was
published and much attention was drawn to the world order
movement.

Founded in 1972 by Donald Keys, a long-time consultant to United
Nations delegations and committees, Planetary Citizens attracted a
huge and impressive roster of leaders--such as New Age Luminaries
David Spangler and Peter Caddy (both formerly of Findhorn
Community), William Irwin Thompson, Willis Harman (futurist), Edgar
Mitchell (ex-astronaut) and Michael Murphy (of Esalen Institute).

Distinguished members have included Isaac Asimov, Rene Dubos and
the current honorary chairman (as of 1986) Norman Cousins.

The Planetary Initiative culminated in a Planetary Congress in Toronto
in June of 1983. Nearly five hundred people (including New Age notables
Barbara Marx Hubbard and Ram Dass) from twenty countries met for
the four-day event. The congress published its results in the Initiator
as the "Declaration on the World We Choose." The document covered a
gamut of topics concerning ecology, economics, politics, spirituality, etc.,
and also trumpeted the need for a new economic order, a stronger
United Nations and a centralized global government.

Hmmm maybe at least some of this "New World Order" conspiracy stuff
has some basis, after all, huh?

More info at this link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cYg6H2 ... 22&f=false

Best Regards,
Sharon (Making the Best of Basics) in Mississippi

[ready2prepare]

The information below will hopefully clarify what Spangler was
referring to as the "Luciferian Initiation."

"The true light of Lucifer cannot be seen through sorrow,
through darkness, through rejection. The true light of
this great being can only be recognized when one's own
eyes can see with the light of the Christ, the light of the
inner sun. Lucifer works within each of us to bring us to
wholeness, and as we move into a new age, which is the
age of man's wholeness, each of us, in some way is brought
to that point which I term the Luciferic Initiation, the
particular doorway through which the individual must pass if
he is to come fully into the presence of his light and his
wholeness..

Lucifer comes to give us the final gift of wholeness. If we
accept it, then he is free and we are free. That is the
Luciferic Initiation. it is one that many people now, and in the
days ahead, will be facing, for it is an initiation into the New
Age. It is an initiation of leaving the past and moving into the
new, shedding our guilts and fears, our anxieties, our needs, our
temptations, and becoming whole and at peace because we have
recognized our inner light and the light that enfolds us, the
light of God."
-- David Spangler, Reflections on the Christ

Source:
http://www.skepticfiles.org/aj/newage.htm

Best Regards,
Sharon (Making the Best of Basics) in Mississippi

[LDSNZ]

Awesome. Good stuff Sharon 8)

[ithink]

I wonder if Mark will weigh in on what the mark is.

If you ask some people on this forum mate they will tell you that I am the mark of the beast and my DNA will somehow get implanted into your forehead or right hand if you aren't careful.

Actually the truth of the matter is that I think Apostate Christianity has literalized those spiritual prophesies and figurative signs to the point of argumentum ad ridiculum. (Hows that three?) John clearly says that those who worship the beast and receive the mark will be tormented forever with fire and brimstone. In other words they will be BBQing with thermite for a long long time. Now for this to happen I would say someone would have to have done something much more dramatic than take a flu shot or get a Visa card implant to buy groceries.

I agree that caution is required in defining the Mark -- er, mark (small m). John says nobody could buy or sell unless they had the mark of the beast, but I can buy and sell in ways that do not require a visa card or a chip. However, there are "universal" systems that could be expanded so that they are the only way to buy or sell, and with the technology of the day, what seemed impossible certainly is not any longer.

[reese]

I wonder if Mark will weigh in on what the mark is.

Actually the truth of the matter is that I think Apostate Christianity has literalized those spiritual prophesies and figurative signs to the point of argumentum ad ridiculum. (Hows that three?) John clearly says that those who worship the beast and receive the mark will be tormented forever with fire and brimstone. In other words they will be BBQing with thermite for a long long time. Now for this to happen I would say someone would have to have done something much more dramatic than take a flu shot or get a Visa card implant to buy groceries.

I concur. Though if it is made clear that you have to take initiations (oaths and covenants) with Lucifer and denounce that there is a God to be a recipient of such visa card implant than we have the dramatic version that we are looking for. That is what the occult has planned in the initiations that they have well documented. It will not be a mark that is easily confused. Just as our endowments are not easily confused to be something else when we receive them. It is hard to imagine a world so wicked that people would choose to take oaths and covenants with Lucifer but they are already doing it. We sadly have entered that time. Now it is being done privately but soon when the world is more ripe they plan on doing it on a world scale. See my earlier post.

So I have a question. How can, as we are told in the parable of the ten virgins and others, it be possible that 50% of "good, active, assuming they are worthy to be with the Lord" members of the LDS chuch be so blinded as to take a satanic oath? I agree that it will be a line drawn in the sand sort of thing and we will all have to chose whom we serve. I just wonder how members of this chruch can be so fooled that they would actually be on satans side when the Lord comes and not know it. And as Mark said earlier the punishment for being on satans side is severe, which makes one think that the Lord expects us to be aware of what we are doing and what is happening so we are not fooled by satan. What do you think?

[Rosabella]

Well from my perspective I sadly can see it happen. For it is happening right now. Many members are fully embracing new age occult teachings as truth. At first they are unaware of what these teachings really are, then once they have gotten deep enough in they start believing it over the LDS faith. I was told by the GAs that this would be a major cause of the seperation of the wheat and tares. I can not even count the amount of people that have already left the church or have started to doubt basic doctrines due to their readings of books and watching self-help DVDs etc.

When you add the persecution against being LDS which will occur in the near future (and has just started), the number of members that have the strength to endure decreases further. When your life is on the line you can tend to want to believe in what can save your life, deceiving yourself that you have changed your mind.

The new age occult (the fastest growing Spritual way of thinking) has clearly written that they plan to destroy all those that believe in the God of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims. They intend to kill them if they do not give up their religions. But first they plan to convert as many as possible to their "Spirituality" Which they are readily doing. They do not tell you right off their full plans, but the plans are nevertheless right their in their writtings, they just do not advertise that part. It is said to be for the good of the whole planet that some have to be killed off, it is like killing cancer cells. It is for the good of all. People are getting blind enough to believe that. So yes 50% of the active members could easily be lost.

There are sadly many that will not be able to live the law of consecration (even ones that thought they could) for it is not an easy law to live as we were shown when it was attempted to be established during the time of Joseph Smith. With all these things combined we are easily at 50%.

Keep in mind it is a slow boiling that takes place to change the hearts of people. Sin sneaks in, fear, pride, etc. If the world starts to have "miracles" that seem to be from a "Christ" figure, many will choose to follow what is a sign over what is based on faith.

We have not in recent generations felt the pains of poverty, disease, persecution, etc. These kinds of trials will test the elect to their core. Some will not withstand the pressures and will curse God or lose all faith in a God. Once they have done that and have lost the Spirit they are easy prey to Lucifer's plan and his lies. They will readily take his initiations for they will be promised relief from their sufferings or be threatened with their lives. If men choose to join Lucifer to save their mortal life they will lose their eternal life.

If we read the tribulations that are on our horizons we are told that the faithful will cry day and night to God for relief from their sufferings.

Heber C Kimball prophesied that after the Saints have put themselves in financial bondage because of their extravigance and financial speculation.

"Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and other will be still not knowing what to do. Before that day comes, however, the Saints will be put to tests that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes."

Deseret News, Church Department, page 3 May 23, 1931

During the testing Lucifer will be appearing as an angel of light. Not a dark scary demon. That is why many will follow him as they are right now. He will teach peace, love and security. All he will ask is that we abandon our antiquated belief in a Father in heaven and believe that we ourselves are all collectively god and the he is our teacher of this truth, therefore he becomes our God.

[Rosabella]

ready2prepare

Thanks for all your hard work and research! I will research this data and see what qualifies as verifible documentation. In authoring I have to be very careful that everything is well documented and not use any hearsay. Thank you for all your great infromation!

Bella

[Mark]

I can not even count the amount of people that have already left the church or have started to doubt basic doctrines due to their readings of books and watching self-help DVDs etc.

I am just to tired to get into this tonight but Bella is hitting on something that is very important. Much of the millions of self help stuff out there is based upon the philosophy that you are the master of your own ship and you can accomplish anything or make any amount of money with proper attitudes and focus. God begins to lose His importance and focus in your life and personal achievement based on ones own accomplishments takes presidence. Therefore we are lulled into a carnal security thinking that all our successes in life are a result of our own efforts and hard work. We stop confessing Gods hand and become Gods unto ourselves. Wealth and achievement becomes our focus and priority pushing out the need for a Savior. It is a vicious cycle of pride and lack of credit given to our Creator for even the very breath we take.

In 3 Nephi 6:15 it says regarding the Nephites that Satan had obtained great power over the people by tempting them to seek for power and authority and the riches and vain things of the world. Have things changed much since then?

[reese]

When you add the persecution against being LDS which will occur in the near future (and has just started), the number of members that have the strength to endure decreases further. When your life is on the line you can tend to want to believe in what can save your life, deceiving yourself that you have changed your mind.



There are sadly many that will not be able to live the law of consecration (even ones that thought they could) for it is not an easy law to live as we were shown when it was attempted to be established during the time of Joseph Smith. With all these things combined we are easily at 50%.

Yes I can see what you are saying. I guess you are just opening my mind to things I have never considered before. I do not want to be decieved by satan. It sounds as though its not going to be as simple as black and white, which side are you on? I have pondered that quote from Heber C. Kimball a lot, trying to imagine what types of things could try the saints to their very limits.

[reese]

I can not even count the amount of people that have already left the church or have started to doubt basic doctrines due to their readings of books and watching self-help DVDs etc.

I am just to tired to get into this tonight but Bella is hitting on something that is very important. Much of the millions of self help stuff out there is based upon the philosophy that you are the master of your own ship and you can accomplish anything or make any amount of money with proper attitudes and focus. God begins to lose His importance and focus in your life and personal achievement based on ones own accomplishments takes presidence. Therefore we are lulled into a carnal security thinking that all our successes in life are a result of our own efforts and hard work. We stop confessing Gods hand and become Gods unto ourselves. Wealth and achievement becomes our focus and priority pushing out the need for a Savior. It is a vicious cycle of pride and lack of credit given to our Creator for even the very breath we take.

In 3 Nephi 6:15 it says regarding the Nephites that Satan had obtained great power over the people by tempting them to seek for power and authority and the riches and vain things of the world. Have things changed much since then?

I am beginning to understand. I read 'The Secret' a year or so ago. It sounded good, you know, you make things happen in your life. Anything, even healing yourself. I thought a lot about it but something was off. I could not quite make it fit with the gospel so all of its "potential" got put on the back burner of my mind, until now. I can see how it is satan's twist on truth. But I obviously did not recognise it as satanic. That is frightening to me. If I remember correctly it was quite a hot topic for a while, I think I watched something on Oprah about it.

[Rosabella]

Mark: yes that is what I am saying thank you for explaining it.

Reese:

You really do understand it. Yes "The Secret" is twisted truth or you could say doctrines of devils, most of the writings of the Law of Attraction were channeled by spirit entities. There is a difference between the Law of Attraction and the Law of the Harvest or The Law of Restoration. The Law of Attraction is something we “will” into accruing but the true principle is we reap what we sow, that means the Lord can bless us or not bless us based on our actions in this life. It does not mean we can tap into a power of natural laws to focus our wills, desire and dreams on and just visualize their manifestations. Ken Bowers and I just talked about that a week ago. In his research he has understood the same lie in the Law of Attraction. He and I discussed how witches use the Law of Attraction in magic and call it the same name. They use it to invoke demons to do their bidding (which works by the way). If we see any fruits when using the Law of Attraction to direct our lives, those fruit are not from God, but from the same source from which witches get their power. This idea is a twisted truth, a counterfeit to lead us astray. It misses the most important part of the Lord’s plan - “Fathers will” - and is using powers not from God but from the adversary. These are not natural laws that we tap into that are neutral. Either we are working through the power of God doing his Will or we are working through the powers of the adversary, for he can do miracles too. But man on his own is nothing for we are told that by Moses and King Benjamin.


Moses 1: 10

10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

Mosiah 4:5

5 For behold, if the knowledge of the goodness of God at this time has awakened you to a sense of your nothingness, and your worthless and fallen state—


The Secret was promoted on Oprah along with many other occult teaching she promotes continually. The Secret has gone through the LDS Church like wildfire. It still is destroying trees in the vineyard of the Lord.
All this self-help stuff leaves God and His will out of the picture and makes ourselves “gods” unto ourselves. It gives no credit for blessings from Father or any judgments, which are the true Law of the Harvest. We are in a generation where we are obsessed with self, and worship ourselves instead of worshiping a God - our will only.


Resse

It is wonderful that you sensed through the Spirit that something was off. It is difficult to recognize something like this as evil or satanic, but you felt something was not right and that is what counts. That will be the vital thing we must have to make it through these times. We truly must have the Spirit with us at all times to discern truth from Lies. The Spirit must be our guide. The teachings of today are diametrically opposed to the idea of a Father in Heaven that we are to submit our will to. The world insists that we are the ones to direct ourselves and actually call it evil if we believe in a Father in Heaven that we are to submit our will to. They say that the only “sin” or “evil” in the world is To Believe In A God.

As Christ said at the great council in heaven over the two plans "Father Thy Will Be Done".

The only logical key I can share for catching deceptions that works is those very words. Father, Thy will be done or Thy will not mine. We must be willing to completely submit our will to Father in all things always, becoming like a child should be to a Father. We must look to His will in all that we do. We must let go of Pride in all of its forms. We must become Humble before Father in all things.


Matthew 18: 1-4

1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


We tend to think of spiritual things in the way we think of mortal maturity as growing into adulthood where we begin to act as adults making our own decisions, choices and finding our own truths, with no one to answer to but ourselves. But this is not what the goal is spiritually. The goal is to become more and more like a Child, submitting our will to Father in all things. The purpose of this life is not to grow up and become a God here. It is merely a test if we will fully submit to Father here, to become like a Child, humble, obedient, teachable etc. Therefore we must be willing to say “Thy will not mine” in all things and endure to the end. We must not try to grow up too fast upon our own will or we find ourselves where Lucifer found himself. There is no short cut to reach Godhood by going around Father. It must be taught directly by Father each and every step. We are not to go out and find ways to become like God that he is not teaching us in our Church. All we need is the teachings of our Church. It is not the fast track to independent Godhood. It is the track of being one with Father which takes us more than a lifetime of submitting our will in all things to Him. The goal is never to be independent but to be One with Him.

Notice in the following talk that becoming a child takes time, it is a process in life. We are not told to become a child then start trying to become Gods. We are told to just submit our will to Father in all things and all of our growth will be taken care of through that process.

http://tiny.cc/child314

Henry B. Eyring, “As a Child,” Ensign, May 2006, 14–17

“Here is King Benjamin’s stirring description of what that change to become like a child is and how it comes to us:

“For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.”

We are safe on the rock which is the Savior when we have yielded in faith in Him, have responded to the Holy Spirit’s direction to keep the commandments long enough and faithfully enough that the power of the Atonement has changed our hearts. When we have, by that experience, become as a child in our capacity to love and obey, we are on the sure foundation.

From King Benjamin we learn what we can do to take us to that safe place. But remember: the things we do are the means, not the end we seek. What we do allows the Atonement of Jesus Christ to change us into what we must be. Our faith in Jesus Christ brings us to repentance and to keeping His commandments. We obey and we resist temptation by following the promptings of the Holy Ghost. In time our natures will change. We will become as a little child, obedient to God and more loving. That change, if we do all we must to keep it, will qualify us to enjoy the gifts which come through the Holy Ghost. Then we will be safe on the only sure rock.”



Lucifer can appear as an angel of light and deceive us with things that “appear good”.

2 CORINTHIANS 11:14-15

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Nephi 9:9

9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.


We should not be searching the world for “secret doctrines”. The world has them. They are Lucifer’s ancient secret doctrines which he has taught since the beginning of time. All we need is in the gospel of Jesus Christ.


Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “The Way of the Disciple,” Ensign, May 2009, 75–78

…… the gospel of Jesus Christ has the answers to all of our problems. The gospel is not a secret. It is not complicated or hidden. It can unlock the door to true happiness. It is not someone’s theory or proposition. It does not come from man at all. It springs from the pure and everlasting waters of the Creator of the universe, who knows truths we cannot even begin to comprehend. And with that knowledge, He has given us the gospel—a divine gift, the ultimate formula for happiness and success.


As we can see we are not to seek our own will, but Father’s will. We do not find Father’s mysteries out in the world. The mysteries of the gospel, or rather the deeper understanding of the gospel comes through living the basic truths of the gospel and contemplating them in holy places. It is through personal revelation that the Lord reveals these mysteries to the obedient. They are not discoverable through books DVDs made by and for the world. Non LDS philosophers, no matter how good they may seem cannot be a source of divine knowledge. This truth comes through the power and gift of the Holy Ghost and only through that power. Look to the scriptures, the prophet and only then to personal revelation that is consistent with what they have taught. Do not seek for mysteries in the archives of Babylon, then try to make them fit into the Church. They will never fit, for they are the secrets of Babylon not Zion, therefore lies not truths.

[reese]

Bella,
Thank you. You have hit on the head, a thought that has been in my mind a lot as of late. Its a simple truth we all know yet many do not of us don't practice it as we should. It is simply that we must have a personal relationship with our Savior and Father in Heaven. We must worship and submit to them, not to the bishop, or elders quorum pres., or stake pres., or even the prophet. My husband and I have had many a talk about how foolish some members are in their efforts to 'brown nose' people in leadership positions. So many people are so distracted by the popularity games played at church, that they seem to forget that it is Jesus Christ's chruch and we are to worship him. I wonder how popular he would be in most wards if he showed up incognito. I think most people would be offended by him.

I am becoming more and more aware that if we are to obtain salvation, we must be actively seeking it each day. Not abstractly thinking about it occasionally. You are right, we must submit to our Father in Heavens' will. If we won't we will not be with him. It is very cut and dry actually. The more we allow ourselves to be distracted or decived, the further away from him we will become. Making it much harder to return, or even recognise that we have even wandered away from him. I feel as though the Lord is 'feeling' after us right now. More so than ever because we are fast approaching a day when we will have to make a choice between him and satan, and so many of us members (who should know better) are unprepared to make that choice. So many of us do not see things as they really are. We do not understand that 'satans great and abominible church' is so much more that just personal sin.....and so much more dangerous as well. He is organized in his plan of attack, and the majority of us have no idea that we are at war!