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Overall Debt 80 percent of GDP

Posted: July 6th, 2009, 12:37 am
by Kurt
http://money.aol.com/article/will-us-le ... sis/555395

Will US Legacy of Debt Spur Next Crisis?
By TOM RAUM, AP (July 4) - The Founding Fathers left one legacy not celebrated on Independence Day but which affects us all. It's the national debt.
The country first got into debt to help pay for the Revolutionary War. Growing ever since, the debt stands today at a staggering $11.4 trillion — equivalent to about $37,000 for each and every American. And it's expanding by over $1 trillion a year.
The mountain of debt easily could become the next full-fledged economic crisis without firm action from Washington, economists of all stripes warn.
"Unless we demonstrate a strong commitment to fiscal sustainability in the longer term, we will have neither financial stability nor healthy economic growth," Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke recently told Congress.
Higher taxes, or reduced federal benefits and services — or a combination of both — may be the inevitable consequences.
The debt is complicating efforts by President Barack Obama and Congress to cope with the worst recession in decades as stimulus and bailout spending combine with lower tax revenues to widen the gap.
Interest payments on the debt alone cost $452 billion last year — the largest federal spending category after Medicare-Medicaid, Social Security and defense. It's quickly crowding out all other government spending. And the Treasury is finding it harder to find new lenders.
The United States went into the red the first time in 1790 when it assumed $75 million in the war debts of the Continental Congress.
Alexander Hamilton, the first treasury secretary, said, "A national debt, if not excessive, will be to us a national blessing."
Some blessing.
Since then, the nation has only been free of debt once, in 1834-1835.
The national debt has expanded during times of war and usually contracted in times of peace, while staying on a generally upward trajectory. Over the past several decades, it has climbed sharply — except for a respite from 1998 to 2000, when there were annual budget surpluses, reflecting in large part what turned out to be an overheated economy.
The debt soared with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and economic stimulus spending under President George W. Bush and now Obama.
The odometer-style "debt clock" near Times Square — put in place in 1989 when the debt was a mere $2.7 trillion — ran out of numbers and had to be shut down when the debt surged past $10 trillion in 2008.
The clock has since been refurbished so higher numbers fit. There are several debt clocks on Web sites maintained by public interest groups that let you watch hundreds, thousands, millions zip by in a matter of seconds.
The debt gap is "something that keeps me awake at night," Obama says.
He pledged to cut the budget "deficit" roughly in half by the end of his first term. But "deficit" just means the difference between government receipts and spending in a single budget year.
This year's deficit is now estimated at about $1.85 trillion.
Deficits don't reflect holdover indebtedness from previous years. Some spending items — such as emergency appropriations bills and receipts in the Social Security program — aren't included, either, although they are part of the national debt.
The national debt is a broader, and more telling, way to look at the government's balance sheets than glancing at deficits.
According to the Treasury Department, which updates the number "to the penny" every few days, the national debt was $11,518,472,742,288 on Wednesday.
The overall debt is now slightly over 80 percent of the annual output of the entire U.S. economy, as measured by the gross domestic product.
By historical standards, it's not proportionately as high as during World War II, when it briefly rose to 120 percent of GDP. But it's still a huge liability.
Also, the United States is not the only nation struggling under a huge national debt. Among major countries, Japan, Italy, India, France, Germany and Canada have comparable debts as percentages of their GDPs.
Where does the government borrow all this money from?
The debt is largely financed by the sale of Treasury bonds and bills. Even today, amid global economic turmoil, those still are seen as one of the world's safest investments.
That's one of the rare upsides of U.S. government borrowing.
Treasury securities are suitable for individual investors and popular with other countries, especially China, Japan and the Persian Gulf oil exporters, the three top foreign holders of U.S. debt.
But as the U.S. spends trillions to stabilize the recession-wracked economy, helping to force down the value of the dollar, the securities become less attractive as investments. Some major foreign lenders are already paring back on their purchases of U.S. bonds and other securities.
And if major holders of U.S. debt were to flee, it would send shock waves through the global economy — and sharply force up U.S. interest rates.
As time goes by, demographics suggest things will get worse before they get better, even after the recession ends, as more baby boomers retire and begin collecting Social Security and Medicare benefits.
While the president remains personally popular, polls show there is rising public concern over his handling of the economy and the government's mushrooming debt — and what it might mean for future generations.
If things can't be turned around, including establishing a more efficient health care system, "We are on an utterly unsustainable fiscal course," said the White House budget director, Peter Orszag.
Some budget-restraint activists claim even the debt understates the nation's true liabilities.
The Peter G. Peterson Foundation, established by a former commerce secretary and investment banker, argues that the $11.4 trillion debt figures does not take into account roughly $45 trillion in unlisted liabilities and unfunded retirement and health care commitments.

That would put the nation's full obligations at $56 trillion, or roughly $184,000 per American, according to this calculation.
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press.

Re: Overall Debt 80 percent of GDP

Posted: July 6th, 2009, 8:44 am
by Baron
Interest payments on the debt alone cost $452 billion last year — the largest federal spending category after Medicare-Medicaid, Social Security and defense. It's quickly crowding out all other government spending. And the Treasury is finding it harder to find new lenders.
My understanding is interests expense will surpass M/M, SS, & defense next year based on the debt at the end of Q1 2009.
The overall debt is now slightly over 80 percent of the annual output of the entire U.S. economy, as measured by the gross domestic product.
Which sounds really bad....then you figure output is dropping rapidly and debt is increasing rapidly. Based on the current trajectories we should surpass Japan (debt is 150% of GDP) by early 2010.
Some budget-restraint activists claim even the debt understates the nation's true liabilities. The Peter G. Peterson Foundation, established by a former commerce secretary and investment banker, argues that the $11.4 trillion debt figures does not take into account roughly $45 trillion in unlisted liabilities and unfunded retirement and health care commitments.
That would put the nation's full obligations at $56 trillion, or roughly $184,000 per American, according to this calculation.
Probably conservative knowing Walker's history...
The Walker-era GAO filed, but then declined to appeal, legal action to force Vice President Cheney to provide notes and information about meetings he held with energy companies while developing U.S. energy policy. A related suit wound up before the Supreme Court, which upheld the vice president's refusal to make the information public.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03189.html
There have been a few major economic events in the last few years, but I consider the resignation, in March 2008, of David M. Walker from his commission of Comptroller General of the United States and head of the Government Accountability Office to be the harbinger of what is to come.

Walker resigned 5 years before the end of his 15-year term expired. His reasons for resigning were that he was limited to what he could do and that the United States was in danger of collapsing in much the same manner as the Roman Empire.

“Drawing parallels with the end of the Roman empire, Mr Walker warned there were ‘striking similarities’ between America’s current situation and the factors that brought down Rome, including ‘declining moral values and political civility at home, an over-confident and over-extended military in foreign lands and fiscal irresponsibility by the central government’.”

For months before his resignation he traveled the country educating Americans about the financial crisis and the pending bankruptcy of the United States.
http://www.chycho.com/?q=Rome
Walker left his government post to lead the newly founded Peter G. Peterson Foundation. As the head of the Peterson Foundation, Walker will oversee the billion-dollar endowment of Pete Peterson — former commerce secretary, the founder of the Blackstone Group and the Concord Coalition and legendary advocate for government fiscal responsibility. Chief among Walker’s duties at the Peterson Foundation will be the funding and advocating of projects that will enhance public awareness of fiscal imbalance, government deficits and nuclear proliferation.

We’re hoping that I.O.U.S.A., in which Walker plays a distinct and prominent role, will be one of those projects. We’ll keep you updated either way. For the full story, check out the “overtime briefing” we sent on Friday.
http://www.agorafinancial.com/5min/new- ... -and-more/

Re: Overall Debt 80 percent of GDP

Posted: July 6th, 2009, 9:51 am
by Col. Flagg
We're facing something that is coming at us like a freight train and when it arrives, the American public isn't gonna know what hit them. It's very possible that we could wake up one morning and find that the dollar has collapsed overnight and that prices have doubled or more for just about everything. Other countries like China know full well that the U.S. is bankrupt and what we're headed for and they're going to take full advantage of it. Maybe the reason we've been counseled for so long to have a year's supply of food on hand is because we aren't going to be able to afford to pay for it when the dollar collapses and we get hyper-inflation?

Re: Overall Debt 80 percent of GDP

Posted: July 6th, 2009, 10:56 am
by Jason
It's very possible that we could wake up one morning and find that the dollar has collapsed overnight and that prices have doubled or more for just about everything. Other countries like China know full well that the U.S. is bankrupt and what we're headed for and they're going to take full advantage of it. Maybe the reason we've been counseled for so long to have a year's supply of food on hand is because we aren't going to be able to afford to pay for it when the dollar collapses and we get hyper-inflation?
Why would the dollar collapse? Why would anyone want it to collapse? Foreigners hold more dollars than Americans....why would they want to throw the value of all the goods and services they have provided away? Why not deflation where the debt forces the American's to default and the Foreigners then come in to claim the assets?

Re: Overall Debt 80 percent of GDP

Posted: July 6th, 2009, 12:17 pm
by Col. Flagg
Jason wrote:
It's very possible that we could wake up one morning and find that the dollar has collapsed overnight and that prices have doubled or more for just about everything. Other countries like China know full well that the U.S. is bankrupt and what we're headed for and they're going to take full advantage of it. Maybe the reason we've been counseled for so long to have a year's supply of food on hand is because we aren't going to be able to afford to pay for it when the dollar collapses and we get hyper-inflation?
Why would the dollar collapse?

Because of the trillions being printed up out of thin air by the criminal Federal Reserve and used to 'bail-out' :lol: crooks and swindlers in the banks and on Wall Street at taxpayer expense :lol: , not to mention the $4.5 trillion the 'Fed' is planning on dumping into the economy in September :lol: . Tell me how deflation is possible considering these two situations? Last time I checked, an increase in the amount of money results in inflation, not deflation and considering the amount they're printing (or digitizing), we're likely to see hyper-inflation. Not only that, who benefits under a hyper-inflationary blow-out? The banks, big business, 'government' and Wall Street.

Why would anyone want it to collapse?

China and many other foreign nations/entities holding dollars have been getting out of them like crazy lately because they know what the future of the dollar is. Furthermore, you don't think they'd like to see the U.S. implode?

Foreigners hold more dollars than Americans....why would they want to throw the value of all the goods and services they have provided away? Why not deflation where the debt forces the American's to default and the Foreigners then come in to claim the assets?

Deflation may occur prior to our hyper-inflationary blow-out, but ultimately, we're going to see prices and interest rates go through the roof because of our 'elected leaders'. There has been an intentional destruction of the dollar going on for a while now... a strong dollar is an impediment to a global currency, global bank and one world government... the U.S. has to be brought to its knees before Satan's global system is set-up and we're going through that stage now.

Re: Overall Debt 80 percent of GDP

Posted: July 6th, 2009, 1:44 pm
by Jason
Because of the trillions being printed up out of thin air by the criminal Federal Reserve and used to 'bail-out' :lol: crooks and swindlers in the banks and on Wall Street at taxpayer expense :lol: , not to mention the $4.5 trillion the 'Fed' is planning on dumping into the economy in September :lol: . Tell me how deflation is possible considering these two situations? Last time I checked, an increase in the amount of money results in inflation, not deflation and considering the amount they're printing (or digitizing), we're likely to see hyper-inflation. Not only that, who benefits under a hyper-inflationary blow-out? The banks, big business, 'government' and Wall Street.
Well only about $54 billion has actually been paid on the bail out package. Credit is disappearing as we speak...some estimate as high as a trillion a quarter. I don't see how banks, big business, government, and Wall Street benefit from a hyper-inflationary blow-out. They lend expensive dollars and get back cheaper dollars...how is that a winning situation?

I think the hyper-inflation craze is all hype propaganda designed to justify taking on more debt....which any sensible person would do in a hyper-inflationary scenario.
China and many other foreign nations/entities holding dollars have been getting out of them like crazy lately because they know what the future of the dollar is. Furthermore, you don't think they'd like to see the U.S. implode?
They have quit taking on more dollars and are buying up commodities like crazy (China) but there could be several justifications for this such as war prep...etc. Do you have any proof they are dumping dollars?
Deflation may occur prior to our hyper-inflationary blow-out, but ultimately, we're going to see prices and interest rates go through the roof because of our 'elected leaders'. There has been an intentional destruction of the dollar going on for a while now... a strong dollar is an impediment to a global currency, global bank and one world government... the U.S. has to be brought to its knees before Satan's global system is set-up and we're going through that stage now.
Deflation will bring the country to its knees just as fast or faster than hyper-inflation....while providing an opportunity for the foreigners to extract 10X the value out of their dollars for the goods and services they delivered.

Re: Overall Debt 80 percent of GDP

Posted: December 23rd, 2013, 5:42 pm
by Jason
Legion wrote:
Because of the trillions being printed up out of thin air by the criminal Federal Reserve and used to 'bail-out' :lol: crooks and swindlers in the banks and on Wall Street at taxpayer expense :lol: , not to mention the $4.5 trillion the 'Fed' is planning on dumping into the economy in September :lol: . Tell me how deflation is possible considering these two situations? Last time I checked, an increase in the amount of money results in inflation, not deflation and considering the amount they're printing (or digitizing), we're likely to see hyper-inflation. Not only that, who benefits under a hyper-inflationary blow-out? The banks, big business, 'government' and Wall Street.
Well only about $54 billion has actually been paid on the bail out package. Credit is disappearing as we speak...some estimate as high as a trillion a quarter. I don't see how banks, big business, government, and Wall Street benefit from a hyper-inflationary blow-out. They lend expensive dollars and get back cheaper dollars...how is that a winning situation?

I think the hyper-inflation craze is all hype propaganda designed to justify taking on more debt....which any sensible person would do in a hyper-inflationary scenario.
China and many other foreign nations/entities holding dollars have been getting out of them like crazy lately because they know what the future of the dollar is. Furthermore, you don't think they'd like to see the U.S. implode?
They have quit taking on more dollars and are buying up commodities like crazy (China) but there could be several justifications for this such as war prep...etc. Do you have any proof they are dumping dollars?
Deflation may occur prior to our hyper-inflationary blow-out, but ultimately, we're going to see prices and interest rates go through the roof because of our 'elected leaders'. There has been an intentional destruction of the dollar going on for a while now... a strong dollar is an impediment to a global currency, global bank and one world government... the U.S. has to be brought to its knees before Satan's global system is set-up and we're going through that stage now.
Deflation will bring the country to its knees just as fast or faster than hyper-inflation....while providing an opportunity for the foreigners to extract 10X the value out of their dollars for the goods and services they delivered.
3.5 years...and were is the inflation/deflation debate today???

Re: Overall Debt 80 percent of GDP

Posted: December 24th, 2013, 2:45 am
by Original_Intent
Do you define inflation by money supply or prices?

Do you use official statistics or a third party like Shadowstats?

Have prices risen or dropped?

Has the money supply risen or dropped?

Re: Overall Debt 80 percent of GDP

Posted: December 24th, 2013, 1:20 pm
by Jason
Original_Intent wrote:Do you define inflation by money supply or prices?

Do you use official statistics or a third party like Shadowstats?

Have prices risen or dropped?

Has the money supply risen or dropped?
Yes it is complicated and most difficult in our current environment of monopolies and price setting by various parties...faulty statistics or the refusal to even put out money supply statistics (discontinued M3 stats).

Personally I gauge it off of employment, wages, and demand for goods...also long term asset prices after interest rate adjustments are taken into account. Some statistics like velocity of money.

The ultimate measurement though I believe is the growth in debt (new money). I'm not sure

Velocity of M2 Money Stock (M2V)
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/M2V/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

M2 Money Stock (M2NS)
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/M2NS?cid=29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total Consumer Credit Owned and Securitized, Outstanding
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/se ... NS?cid=101" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Commercial And Industrial Loans, Top 100 Banks Ranked By Assets (ACILT100)
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/se ... 00?cid=100" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

30-Year Conventional Mortgage Rate (MORTG)
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/se ... TG?cid=114" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Due to intrinsic design of the monetary system (money created by debt) we must have greater and greater quantities of money or we have deflation and default.

The US dollar supply must continue to grow at exponential rates in order to stay ahead of the debt collection side (grim reaper)....which nearly collapsed the whole financial system in 2008 due to a shortage of US dollars that were required to service US dollar debt around the globe.

If you look at it like a giant tub...there is a drain at the bottom (payment or servicing of debt). If you pay off a credit card...the money has just gone to digital heaven (no longer in circulation). Your liability is erased as well as the bank's asset. The only thing the bank gets out the equation is interest (extra portion added to the payment of debt) or the corresponding assets (default on debt) which is usually nothing in the case of a credit card.

The system requires greater and greater levels of new debt/money in order for the old money/debt to walk away whole (hat tip to Charles Ponzi)....so if the dollar supply growth (new debt) begins to dwindle...look out below for that deflationary vortex!!!

All the precious metals folks like to ignore the drain at the bottom of the money pool. The tricky part is that because of interest the drain is inherently larger than the faucet...with the only saving grace being time (a plug in the drain that meters out over the life of the debt). If not for that plug the system would collapse before it even got started. Time allows folks to pay back in installments thus allowing the opportunity for others to take on debt (new money enters the system).

Every increase in the tap size creates an equal increase in the drain size...at least until we stop creating money with debt. The only saving grace is debt defaults which forgive debt service and thus leave the money in circulation.

Up until 2008 the cost of debt/money (i.e. interest rate) determined the tap size and new money flow. Since then they've had to take more creative and extensive injection measures as a result of debt saturation. One of which is utilizing private banking interests influence to increase people's borrowing via their collective representative government. Also there has been a sizable portion of defaults which leaves money in the system and frees up folks to take on more debt (new money).

As the money circulates in the pool the banks siphon off interest and assets. Eventually the entire pool belongs to the banks...

Brilliant play (although certainly selfish/devilish and mathematically destined to end badly - i.e. falling into the pit they've dug)!!!

At the end of the day we'll have deflation because the prophets have been warning us about debt for multiple decades now...