LDS Freedom Forum

armedtotheteeth wrote:Sorry for the bad play on words, but I wanted to get people to look. Can I question aspects of the churches business side without questioning the saving souls side? Are they linked or one in the same? Example, my wife and I have been discussing the city creek shopping center here in SLC. I don’t like it! In fact I think it’s a great and spacious building that will be jam pack full of modern day golden idols! Get out of debt, live frugally, dress modestly, don’t listen to bad music, don’t be of the world………but here, here is a building full of everything antithesis of what we know to be true and precious!

Do all business deals go before the brethren? Are they done by revelation? Or are they just business?
I am not opposed to the business side, just question something’s.

Thoughts?

My initial thought was why in the world would the church spend $2 BILLION rennovating a mall in downtown SLC? To me, it seemed that the church was interested in creating an image for itself, something that the Lord and Savior couldn't have been too happy with and certainly the money could be spent for better and more righteous, spiritual purposes, such as helping those in need, missionary work, etc. instead of sprucing up a stinking shopping mall (of all things). How is/was this an appropriate use of church monies??? There are a lot of LDS families with no health insurance, children that are not getting enough food, parents that are out of work, etc. who could use some assistance. However, since then, I've come to understand that the money did not come from tithing funds (good thing) but rather from the church's business arm and I've decided to stop questioning some of the things the brethren are doing and have faith that they are in tune with the Lord and are not doing anything contrary to his will. I think shadow may be on to something when he says the complex may be used for some other purpose(s) in the future.

Can I question aspects of the churches business side without questioning the saving souls side?

The reason I find the City Creek Center bothersome is not that its being built, its that its being used an excuse for our unawakened brethren to conclude that there are no calamities around the corner. My own family seems to parrot this belief. They've done it for years. As long as a temple is under contstruction or in the planning phases, must not be close to the end, they say. For me, the sign is missionaries being sent home, not temple work or construction ceasing. No one has ever said that.

Can you honestly answer the temple recommend question "do you sustain the prophet and leaders of the church" - if you question their leadership? (business or otherwise- I would add that it's the LORDS BUSINESS here we are talking about).

Are there things that don't make sense in the church? Yes- lots of them. I've often said that I cannot understand why the church/BYU has such a love- affair with J. Marriot ( naming buildings after him) while he gets rich off of pay-for-view hardcore porn in each of his hotel rooms ( to the tune of hundreds of millions per year) - but I KNOW that we have a Prophet of God running the church and that's good enough for me.

I won't let my "questions" destroy my testimony of what I know is right.

armedtotheteeth- I don't want you to think this is a personal attack-rather some friendly advice from someone who has tested these waters

ldsff wrote:Too me you can ask all the questions you want and even complain about it. I would think you should ask and complain to the right people though; go to the source and if you do get the response "none of your business" or "the church's ways are not your ways" then throw a big stink. If you are getting to the point of disfellowship then knock it off, be cool and let it go. All these earthly things we do not understand are not worth your time if they keep you away from priesthood ordinances.

You questioned.

You assume all questioning is opposition, and for you, it may be.

Exactly- and the time I spent "questioning" things like Marriott and the church letting the U.N use the conference center for the "conference on the family"- was wasted time. In the end I realized that spending my time on these matters was not bringing me closer to the Savior.
Reading the Book of Mormon and listening to the council of the Brethren was a better use of my journalistic endeavors.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that you are "strong enough" to handle questioning the Brethren - or that your questioning of the decisions they make is somehow building your testimony.

There is a huge difference between struggling with questions of the gospel and pondering and praying as you gain a testimony of them - as opposed to "questioning" the "judgement" of the Lords chosen.

OK Mr. T,
The key is that criticism ends up making you post like this ha ha
The Church is a huge enterprise and has needs that go beyond spiritual matters. Why let that bother you? It is just a fact. It all supports the 4 pillars of the Gospel.
The Church took a more active role in the development of downtown SLC after the City failed miserably. It is the #1 destination of tourists in the state.......missionary work..... and the Church could not allow the downtown to deteriorate, ala Rocky Raccoon and other anti-Mormon politicians.
It is just too easy to sit back and say "Why". Why don't they just distribute all of the extra money to poor saints? Why does everyone need to pay tithing if they are broke, shouldn't there be a lower income threshold? Why does the Church own coke? How can J Willard sleep at night when people are watching porn in his Hotels? (Only international chain with a Book of Mormon in every room). I think we can all see the results start to pour in from Obama and his special United Order plan he has enacted amongst the imperfect

There is a huge difference between struggling with questions of the gospel and pondering and praying as you gain a testimony of them - as opposed to "questioning" the "judgement" of the Lords chosen.

Ok - you are right it IS a contradiction. Either you have a testimony of the restored gospel and the unbroken line of prophets from Joseph Smith jr. down to Thomas Monson - or you don't. If you do- you don't question. Once again you may not like, but you don't question. Only a great fool or an apostate would question a Prophet of God after gaining a testimony that he is one.

Can I question aspects of the churches business side without questioning the saving souls side? - No, they are one and the same.
So the Prophet is right on spritual matters involving the church but not the day-to-day business side of the church? Think about that for a while.

Are they linked or one in the same? Example, my wife and I have been discussing the city creek shopping center here in SLC. I don’t like it!

Yes, they are linked- see above, a Prophet is a Prophet. You don't like it, ok - your right, but who are you at odds with when you don't "like" what the Prophet has decided?

In fact I think it’s a great and spacious building that will be jam pack full of modern day golden idols! Get out of debt, live frugally, dress modestly, don’t listen to bad music, don’t be of the world………but here, here is a building full of everything antithesis of what we know to be true and precious!

Once again YOUR opinion vs. the "opinion" of a living Prophet.

Do all business deals go before the brethren? Are they done by revelation? Or are they just business?

Yep- they do, it's a "Corp" and who is the President of that Corp?

I am not opposed to the business side, just question something’s.

Yes you are, if you truly weren't you wouldn't have posted what you did.

Ok - you are right it IS a contradiction. Either you have a testimony of the restored gospel and the unbroken line of prophets from Joseph Smith jr. down to Thomas Monson - or you don't. If you do- you don't question. Once again you may not like, but you don't question. Only a great fool or an apostate would question a Prophet of God after gaining a testimony that he is one.

I’m sorry you don’t understand this. I love the Prophet and follow his counsel and guidance on everything personal in my life. I question and follow the commandments, believe it or not! Emma Smith learnt from this method……and she is an elect lady!

Ok Teeth If you post a question to the population your'e going to get an opinion from the peanut galley- here's mine since you asked.
Quote:
Can I question aspects of the churches business side without questioning the saving souls side? - No, they are one and the same.
So the Prophet is right on spritual matters involving the church but not the day-to-day business side of the church? Think about that for a while.
Finally you come up with something to add to the thread! Thanks for the help in answering a question!
Are they linked or one in the same? Example, my wife and I have been discussing the city creek shopping center here in SLC. I don’t like it!

Yes, they are linked- see above, a Prophet is a Prophet. You don't like it, ok - your right, but who are you at odds with when you don't "like" what the Prophet has decided?
Great input!
In fact I think it’s a great and spacious building that will be jam pack full of modern day golden idols! Get out of debt, live frugally, dress modestly, don’t listen to bad music, don’t be of the world………but here, here is a building full of everything antithesis of what we know to be true and precious!

Once again YOUR opinion vs. the "opinion" of a living Prophet.
Fact: shopping malls are places of idol worship!

Do all business deals go before the brethren? Are they done by revelation? Or are they just business?

Yep- they do, it's a "Corp" and who is the President of that Corp?
I did not know all deals went before the brethren, hence the QUESTION!
I am not opposed to the business side, just question something’s.

Yes you are, if you truly weren't you wouldn't have posted what you did.
wrong again Mosby baby! Don’t call me a liar now! I think its wonderful the Church is rich! I just want to like this one.

The reason I find the City Creek Center bothersome is not that its being built, its that its being used an excuse for our unawakened brethren to conclude that there are no calamities around the corner

Mosby wrote:You are only a FOOL if you question a Prophet after gaining a testimony of him. If you feel that I have called you a fool, check your premises.

JOSEPH SMITH: Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595. [(Apostle Samuel Richards on Nov. 13, 1852, recorded in the Millennial Star, 14:393-395.)] We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.

You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards of doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works. Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954�56), 3:203�204. ISBN 0884940411)