LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **July 20th, 2009, 5:28 pm**

jnjnelson wrote:
obamohno wrote:When do general conference addresses expire as scripture?

Or are the addresses of from 1920s to 1960s scripture?
General Conference addresses never expire as scripture, just as true principles never expire. However, the policies and procedures outlined an a particular General Conference address, or even some of the specific counsel contained in a General Conference address, might be overridden by the words of a more current prophet. This is in keeping with the true principle of continuing revelation. True principles don't change, but the application of the true principles change all the time, thus necessitating the guidance of current prophets.

An excellent example of how scripture is still scripture even when we don't currently apply it in our lives is the Law of Moses in the Old Testament. The principles behind the Law of Moses are still true, but we don't practice the Law of Moses any more. However, that does not mean that the Old Testament is no longer scripture.

I'm gonna probably do a write up on the prophet counsel about politics and liberty in the 20s to 60s, vs modern LDS counsel and what a majority of LDS members support in politics.

Posted: **July 20th, 2009, 6:57 pm**

you know guys between me, ithink, firend, armed to the teeth, etc I think we all believe in following our prophet. I think we also all believe he is human.

The difference here seems to be simply can the leader mess up? I do not see a problem with that. Just because people all my life freak out at the idea possibility of a fallible man who is the prophet which in turn causes some weak people to lose their testimony, I find that weird.

I know I can respect men like Monson, and know he is God's man, and yet not freak out because maybe he has interpretations and opinions that are his.

It is just weird to me how if Monson or Hinckley is saying everything direct from God, why is God not givin the credit? I think it is because God does not command in all things, and these guys are allowed to mess up just like us, and we love them for it anyway.

So what if Hinckley says something wrong, it does not matter to me at all, he is still the man right! I think as some others on here do that knowing God for yourself is most important so if the leader goofs once in awhile, you just smile and realize, hey he is not perfect either, no big deal.

I always thought we were responsible for our salvation, not the prophet. It makes sense to me, and others on here that we follow God, and support our prophet in his weakness instead of we follow the prophet because only he can get to God for us. I also do not want to be considered bad and enemy to Monson because I think he is not as perfect yet as Jesus.

Just my thoughts

Posted: **July 20th, 2009, 7:09 pm**

I forgot something...srry

I really was impressed by that paper by jeff lindsey. Those on here that have not read it I recommend it. It is back a page or so on this thread.

or i can re-post it.

I am curious what mosby, ChelC, and jnjnelson thinks of that jeff lindsey paper...I truly want to know for real

oh ya lol im editing. Jeff lindsey i guess knew hugh nibley and is an upstanding mormon. I think his paper really shows the fallibility of prophets, and in Christ they are made great.

Posted: **July 20th, 2009, 7:52 pm**

I don't think we disagree very much. I haven't read all of it. I will probably do that in the morning. Off to play tennis now.

Posted: **July 20th, 2009, 8:17 pm**

cayenne wrote:you know guys between me, ithink, firend, armed to the teeth, etc I think we all believe in following our prophet. I think we also all believe he is human.

The difference here seems to be simply can the leader mess up? I do not see a problem with that. Just because people all my life freak out at the idea possibility of a fallible man who is the prophet which in turn causes some weak people to lose their testimony, I find that weird.

I know I can respect men like Monson, and know he is God's man, and yet not freak out because maybe he has interpretations and opinions that are his.

It is just weird to me how if Monson or Hinckley is saying everything direct from God, why is God not givin the credit? I think it is because God does not command in all things, and these guys are allowed to mess up just like us, and we love them for it anyway.

So what if Hinckley says something wrong, it does not matter to me at all, he is still the man right! I think as some others on here do that knowing God for yourself is most important so if the leader goofs once in awhile, you just smile and realize, hey he is not perfect either, no big deal.

I always thought we were responsible for our salvation, not the prophet. It makes sense to me, and others on here that we follow God, and support our prophet in his weakness instead of we follow the prophet because only he can get to God for us. I also do not want to be considered bad and enemy to Monson because I think he is not as perfect yet as Jesus.

Just my thoughts

Bingo, and ditto. Opposition does necessarily mean disloyalty, although some childish folk think it does. It all depends on how it is done, but the top must be willing to change course too, not like an NHL referee who never changes his call even when he knows he is wrong.

Posted: **July 20th, 2009, 9:40 pm**

I remember when Pres. Benson was Elder Benson and everyone said...When he gets in as Pres. all hell will break loose as he is a real radical. I think he was an extremist from a political sense although I think he was right. When he was elevated to be our Prophet, he changed immensely. No radical changes from a political standpoint. No calling Democrats the closest things to communist and so on. Our Prophets are called of God to represent him here on Earth. I believe that 110%. So when someone ignorantly says that a Prophet screwed up.....WOW!. He is in essence saying the Lord screwed up. I would not want to have to justify that comment at a later date. It is blatant priestcraft and the work of the Devil to say that because the Prophet said something that you obviously don't understand or agree with he must have been wrong. That is ignoring the 'Thin Ice' sign on the Lake! Wake up and quit trying to lead others astray by criticizing Church Leaders.

Posted: **July 20th, 2009, 11:08 pm**

I will always choose to follow the prophet by the spirit in righteousness. The ability to recieve personal revelation in worthiness was stressed as vitally important in the last general conference on multiple occassions to make it in these last days. Maybe this means we cannot just rely on the prophet to tell us everything, and maybe this also means that we are to recieve confirmation of all things through the spirit, including what he prophet says. That is why the gift of the Holy Ghost is so amazing, because it can confirm the truth of all things, even the prophets statements. The man who is lead by God speaks by the spirit since they are one and the same. The holy Ghost is our witness of truth! The prophet stands to lead; the spirit confirms all things.

All men make mistakes, excluding only Christ. The Holy Ghost is perfect and one with the Father and the Son. I can always trust in the confirmation of the Holy Ghost as long as I am personally worthy. The Holy Ghost has witnessed to me that Pres Monson is our prophet. The Holy Ghost has witnessed to me that what Monson says is of God. I will use the spirit as my guide when following the prophet who is a man called of God.

Posted: **July 20th, 2009, 11:29 pm**

Cowboy wrote:I remember when Pres. Benson was Elder Benson and everyone said...When he gets in as Pres. all hell will break loose as he is a real radical. I think he was an extremist from a political sense although I think he was right. When he was elevated to be our Prophet, he changed immensely. No radical changes from a political standpoint. No calling Democrats the closest things to communist and so on. Our Prophets are called of God to represent him here on Earth. I believe that 110%. So when someone ignorantly says that a Prophet screwed up.....WOW!. He is in essence saying the Lord screwed up. I would not want to have to justify that comment at a later date. It is blatant priestcraft and the work of the Devil to say that because the Prophet said something that you obviously don't understand or agree with he must have been wrong. That is ignoring the 'Thin Ice' sign on the Lake! Wake up and quit trying to lead others astray by criticizing Church Leaders.

Wow, you seem to be stating that men called as prophets are perfect and therefore we do not need to recieve spiritual confirmation of anything they say. If a prophet should ever make a mistake, it is his alone to bear, please do not attempt to blame Heavenly Father for a man's mistake. If the prophet is acting under the direction of the Father, then he will make no mistakes, and the spirit will confirm it. We have lost a few apostles (i.e. prophet, seers, and revelators) in the early days of the church, I do not blame God for their mistakes and apostacy.

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 12:02 am**

Cowboy wrote:I remember when Pres. Benson was Elder Benson and everyone said...When he gets in as Pres. all hell will break loose as he is a real radical. I think he was an extremist from a political sense although I think he was right. When he was elevated to be our Prophet, he changed immensely. No radical changes from a political standpoint. No calling Democrats the closest things to communist and so on. Our Prophets are called of God to represent him here on Earth. I believe that 110%. So when someone ignorantly says that a Prophet screwed up.....WOW!. He is in essence saying the Lord screwed up. I would not want to have to justify that comment at a later date. It is blatant priestcraft and the work of the Devil to say that because the Prophet said something that you obviously don't understand or agree with he must have been wrong. That is ignoring the 'Thin Ice' sign on the Lake! Wake up and quit trying to lead others astray by criticizing Church Leaders.

I think you are overstating the negatives of critically thinking something through and questioning it.

Also, I think it's much worse to just blindly wait for a prophet to guide you and not do anything to protect liberty in the promised land than to say, wait a minute, why is the prophet saying this, is he right, wrong, where can I find these answers.

So, I think the critical thinkers who look and seek guidance on these issues eventually understand better what the prophet says than someone who just accepts it and thinks all is well in Zion.

I have come to the conclusions that the Lord is not going to guide a people that let liberty slip through their fingers as much as he would guide a people who understand their own doctrine and don't support the enemies to the law of the land and our founding documents.

So in essence, we are not worthy or ready to hear the meat of the Gospel and heed to the advanced and hard truth from the Lord yet.

He will give us Milk though, an unlimited supply, keeping us ready for when we finally hunger for some meat.

I think some eat meat better than some drink milk and vice versa.

Both parties who lacked in either thankfully have an eternity to make up for it and learn from their mistakes and eternally progress.

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 12:07 am**

I will always choose to follow the Lord, and that means following his prophet. The spirit can witness his prophets words.

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 3:30 am**

We can QUESTION!!!! I cannot believe people when they say YOU CANNOT QUESTION!!!! Let me clarify this and help to open some minds here!!

Question BUT never doubt!!! The Lord Himself gives us questions but he never gives us doubts. When someone has a question about the brethren it doesnt mean they are on a slippery road to becoming an apostate! I see way TOO much of this on this site. People are Too quick to judge another in their ligitimate God given RIGHT to ask a question!! This is NOT the church that i belong to! I belong to a Church that because of questioning is HERE TODAY!!

I say question everyone and everything BUT NEVER DOUBT!

This is what i try to stick to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ex8juBO-7Y

ENJOY LIFE AND FIND THE ANSWESRS TO YOUR QUESTIONS AND IGNORE THOSE THAT CREATE DOUBT IN YOUR MIND!!

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 6:39 am**

Truth will Prevail wrote:We can QUESTION!!!! I cannot believe people when they say YOU CANNOT QUESTION!!!! Let me clarify this and help to open some minds here!!

Question BUT never doubt!!! The Lord Himself gives us questions but he never gives us doubts. When someone has a question about the brethren it doesnt mean they are on a slippery road to becoming an apostate! I see way TOO much of this on this site. People are Too quick to judge another in their ligitimate God given RIGHT to ask a question!! This is NOT the church that i belong to! I belong to a Church that because of questioning is HERE TODAY!!

I say question everyone and everything BUT NEVER DOUBT!

This is what i try to stick to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ex8juBO-7Y

ENJOY LIFE AND FIND THE ANSWESRS TO YOUR QUESTIONS AND IGNORE THOSE THAT CREATE DOUBT IN YOUR MIND!!

Yeh, the way I approach it is,

A( hearing the prophet speak

B( weighing it against what I perceive as truth

C( trying to understand why he said what he said , why he said it the way he said it and try to find some precedence in the scriptures, etc.

Sometimes I just end up with a big ??? and go forward with faith.

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 7:26 am**

cayenne wrote:I really was impressed by that paper by jeff lindsey. Those on here that have not read it I recommend it. It is back a page or so on this thread.

or i can re-post it.

Oh, please don't re-post it. That was quite a large post — I would prefer if you would simply post a link to its source.

cayenne wrote:I am curious what mosby, ChelC, and jnjnelson thinks of that jeff lindsey paper...I truly want to know for real

I was also impressed by the article — it was well written and Mr. Lindsey demonstrates in it an insightful understanding of the nature of prophets. I found nothing in it with which I disagree.

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 7:57 am**

Truth will Prevail wrote:We can QUESTION!!!! I cannot believe people when they say YOU CANNOT QUESTION!!!! Let me clarify this and help to open some minds here!!

When I think of the word "question," I think of the many different ways in which the word can be used.

A "question" could be in reference to a "possibility", an "inquiry", an "issue", a "problem", the "subject of a vote", an "interrogation", an "objection", an "investigation", a "specific point", or any number of other definitions. I believe the largest disagreements we have had in this discussion is in our different uses of the word "question", and not so much the difference in our understanding of the nature of prophets of God.

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 8:05 am**

jnjnelson wrote:
Truth will Prevail wrote:We can QUESTION!!!! I cannot believe people when they say YOU CANNOT QUESTION!!!! Let me clarify this and help to open some minds here!!
When I think of the word "question," I think of the many different ways in which the word can be used.

A "question" could be in reference to a "possibility", an "inquiry", an "issue", a "problem", the "subject of a vote", an "interrogation", an "objection", an "investigation", a "specific point", or any number of other definitions. I believe the largest disagreements we have had in this discussion is in our different uses of the word "question", and not so much the difference in our understanding of the nature of prophets of God.

Yes your right! SPOT on! I have just found that people judge very quickly when you have question. The people who have a question have always said, i have a testimony and know that Pres Monson is a Prophet of God, yet people will still take their questions as doubting Thomas! People are too quick to say CARFUL NOW!! YOUR ON THIN ICE HERE!! I just think its a danger and can create contention, though be it there are a few people that do say some things that i just think, are you even a member?

Anyways your right.

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 10:26 am**

Kurt wrote:
Cowboy wrote:I remember when Pres. Benson was Elder Benson and everyone said...When he gets in as Pres. all hell will break loose as he is a real radical. I think he was an extremist from a political sense although I think he was right. When he was elevated to be our Prophet, he changed immensely. No radical changes from a political standpoint. No calling Democrats the closest things to communist and so on. Our Prophets are called of God to represent him here on Earth. I believe that 110%. So when someone ignorantly says that a Prophet screwed up.....WOW!. He is in essence saying the Lord screwed up. I would not want to have to justify that comment at a later date. It is blatant priestcraft and the work of the Devil to say that because the Prophet said something that you obviously don't understand or agree with he must have been wrong. That is ignoring the 'Thin Ice' sign on the Lake! Wake up and quit trying to lead others astray by criticizing Church Leaders.
Wow, you seem to be stating that men called as prophets are perfect and therefore we do not need to receive spiritual confirmation of anything they say. If a prophet should ever make a mistake, it is his alone to bear, please do not attempt to blame Heavenly Father for a man's mistake. If the prophet is acting under the direction of the Father, then he will make no mistakes, and the spirit will confirm it. We have lost a few apostles (i.e. prophet, seers, and revelators) in the early days of the church, I do not blame God for their mistakes and apostacy.

See, this is what I mean. Pure deception. twisting and turning at every point of doctrine.

obamohno wrote:wait a minute, why is the prophet saying this, is he right, wrong, where can I find these answers.

I put this in Wikipedia as the new definition of 'Thin Ice'. (with a caveat..but never doubting... )

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 10:28 am**

For the record I personally don’t believe GBH ‘messed up” when giving us council in GenCon. I find that preposterous. But that’s a different debate. I was more curious if the business side is the same as the spiritual side. Could I question the brethren as an investor in the churches business side and not question the spiritual? Like I have already stated earlier on the thread, we are meant to be like children; Humble and submissive to things we do not fully understand. To question is not the problem, whether it’s to the prophet, a bishop, parent, spouse, or the Lord himself, it’s what you do with the answer that we will be held accountable for. We all questioned 2 different plans before we came to earth, in case you don’t know, if your reading this, you made the right choice!

I have loved reading everyone’s insights, espec, jnjnelson, Mosby, firend and ithink. Thanks guys.

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 10:34 am**

The following URL is one of the best talks I've read regarding "Continuous Revelation" (by Elder Faust) and should explain the "questioning" some of you have mentioned here. We should seek "confirmation" so that we are on the same page as our Prophet. That does NOT mean that we are seeking for an answer as to whether he is right or wrong. Happy reading....it's really a wonderful talk:

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 11:03 am**

Natasha hit the Nail on the head!

natasha wrote:We should seek "confirmation" so that we are on the same page as our Prophet. That does NOT mean that we are seeking for an answer as to whether he is right or wrong.

Good job!

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 12:35 pm**

Where does Firend and other keep their money? I hope it isn't in a bank or credit union. We all know that deposits are loaned out to others. If you have money in such an institution you are enabling others to get into debt and you are profiting from them being in bondage

I would hate for you guys to be hypocrites

Also, to Firend, I like your justification for using utilities but still not being in debt. My question is this: Let's say you use electricity for a month. The day before you get the bill you are robbed clean. You have no money. Are you not in debt to the electric company for the electricity you used? That, along with Mosiah 2:24 tells me even you are in debt.

The nice thing about my mortgage is that it has a clause that says I can mail them the keys and tell them to have fun with their house. I'm only in bondage to them for as long as I want to be

. Now, the guy down the street renting signs annual leases. If he decides to walk away he has to pay the landlord (the guy he's in bondage to) the remaining months of his lease. The courts will enforce that. I'd rather be in the position I'm in. Yes, it would be nice to have the title or deed to my house without a lienholder listed, but as you're aware, even with the deed, you're indebted to the government! Try not making those payments (property tax) and see what happens to your property

BTW, I'm curious how the first copies of the BOM were funded? Any ideas?

Posted: **July 21st, 2009, 4:44 pm**

Cowboy wrote:
Kurt wrote:
Cowboy wrote:I remember when Pres. Benson was Elder Benson and everyone said...When he gets in as Pres. all hell will break loose as he is a real radical. I think he was an extremist from a political sense although I think he was right. When he was elevated to be our Prophet, he changed immensely. No radical changes from a political standpoint. No calling Democrats the closest things to communist and so on. Our Prophets are called of God to represent him here on Earth. I believe that 110%. So when someone ignorantly says that a Prophet screwed up.....WOW!. He is in essence saying the Lord screwed up. I would not want to have to justify that comment at a later date. It is blatant priestcraft and the work of the Devil to say that because the Prophet said something that you obviously don't understand or agree with he must have been wrong. That is ignoring the 'Thin Ice' sign on the Lake! Wake up and quit trying to lead others astray by criticizing Church Leaders.
Wow, you seem to be stating that men called as prophets are perfect and therefore we do not need to receive spiritual confirmation of anything they say. If a prophet should ever make a mistake, it is his alone to bear, please do not attempt to blame Heavenly Father for a man's mistake. If the prophet is acting under the direction of the Father, then he will make no mistakes, and the spirit will confirm it. We have lost a few apostles (i.e. prophet, seers, and revelators) in the early days of the church, I do not blame God for their mistakes and apostacy.
See, this is what I mean. Pure deception. twisting and turning at every point of doctrine.

You do very well in attacking and accusing, but quite poorly in responding to my statement above. This does not come across so well if you actually are here to share and learn.

I can agree with you in your views of following the prophet no matter what, while I still believe we have the priviledge of confirmation of the spirit in all things, and this priviledge of having the Holy Ghost as our guide does not put us on thin ice since the Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead and is therefore perfect.

I agree with the Natasha about seeking and recieving confirmation of what our prophet says in a faithful believing manner. How much better shall we follow in faith if we always seek the spirit to recieve our own confirmations of what he tells us as true. This is how we gain faith and testimony of all things, through the spirit, even if Christ himself were speaking to us. Thanks.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2009, 12:55 am**

shadow wrote:Where does Firend and other keep their money? I hope it isn't in a bank or credit union. We all know that deposits are loaned out to others. If you have money in such an institution you are enabling others to get into debt and you are profiting from them being in bondage I would hate for you guys to be hypocrites

Brother, all money is debt, and banks don't lend deposits, they sit on them as reserves (if required) and lend out brand new money they create with the help of your signature.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8

Posted: **July 22nd, 2009, 12:10 pm**

ithink wrote:banks don't lend deposits, they sit on them as reserves (if required) and lend out brand new money they create with the help of your signature.

Banks DO lend out deposits. Surely you're aware of fractional reserve banking practices. You deposit $100 and the bank can now lend out $80. They pay you interest on your $100 because they are making money by charging a higher interest on the $80 they just loaned to your neighbor. You're happy, the bank is happy, and presumably the guy that borrowed $80 is happy. Then the economy crashes and it all falls down. Oh well. I guess it takes 3 to tango (the depositor (like Firend

), the bank, and the borrower).

Posted: **July 22nd, 2009, 12:21 pm**

shadow wrote:
ithink wrote:banks don't lend deposits, they sit on them as reserves (if required) and lend out brand new money they create with the help of your signature.
Banks DO lend out deposits. Surely you're aware of fractional reserve banking practices. You deposit $100 and the bank can now lend out $80.

Actually, it's $90. Fractional reserve banking requires 10% of the deposit to remain on hand.

Posted: **July 22nd, 2009, 6:39 pm**

shadow wrote:
ithink wrote:banks don't lend deposits, they sit on them as reserves (if required) and lend out brand new money they create with the help of your signature.
Banks DO lend out deposits. Surely you're aware of fractional reserve banking practices. You deposit $100 and the bank can now lend out $80. They pay you interest on your $100 because they are making money by charging a higher interest on the $80 they just loaned to your neighbor. You're happy, the bank is happy, and presumably the guy that borrowed $80 is happy. Then the economy crashes and it all falls down. Oh well. I guess it takes 3 to tango (the depositor (like Firend ), the bank, and the borrower).

No, banks do not lend out depositors money. The bank takes your promissory note to pay the loan back, deposits that in the banks ledgers (asset), then issues a deposit to your account (liability) for the amount of the loan. None of the banks money is directly involved.

Fractional reserve banking is passe in many countries, including Canada. Since 1986 banks can issue loans with zero money on deposit. The limits to what they can loan are related more to the size of the bank (credit union vs. national bank) rather than what they have on "deposit".

Within the last 6 months, a high school economics teacher of 40 years and a retired college professor opposed me on this matter. Each were eating crow shortly thereafter. Fraud is fraud, and modern banking is as fraudulent as it gets.

Sorry for the deviation from the original topic.

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