LDS Freedom Forum

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:26 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:25 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:23 am
I think the Records are close to early Mormonism, but blows it out of the water with clarity and doctrinal depth. I'd put it up against and written "scripture" in existence.

Do you think Jesus was always perfect? I don't.

You believe Jesus sinned?

Not in his last or final probation, but if you read or believe anything from the King Follett discourse, it would suggest that all (or most) intelligences had a period of growth, which includes a fallen state at some point in their progression.

Again, this is where MMP actually limits people's potential to be like God. You ahve already given yourself permission to sin by believing you can never be perfect until you get to the "correct" probation. Again back to the commandments of God who said "Be ye perfect" Yet we are always thinking "not now" We forget that we have the grace of God to help us. God will provide a way for commandments to be fulfilled if He gives them. Our flesh is constantly looking for a way to sin and get away with it, without denying ourselves and just fully yielding to God as Jesus did, who was the perfect exemplar. Why give an example if it isn't possible? At some point we have to ask ourselves if we believe or not. I realized a few years ago I didn't believe, so I submitted to believe.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:27 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:25 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:22 am As a point of reference, the term "repent" is included 360 times in the Book of Mormon.

The question then becomes, what is repentance? Again something I believe mormons teach wrong. They think it is to stop sinning. I don't believe that is true. Repentance is turning towards God (hebrew) and having a change of mind ( greek).

Repenting IS knowing God it is getting rid of our identity and embracing the identity of Christ. Once we embrace Him, we know Him and love Him, we stop sinning- our natures are changed - we become love.

Wickedness has to exist for repentance to exist. I also didn't define what repentance was. Good thing I'm not a Mormon.

What do you believe it is? You do come from mormon roots. Which often influences the way we view things.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:30 am Again, this is where MMP actually limits people's potential to be like God. You ahve already given yourself permission to sin by believing you can never be perfect until you get to the "correct" probation. Again back to the commandments of God who said "Be ye perfect" Yet we are always thinking "not now" We have the grace of God to help us. God will provide a way for commandments to be fulfilled if He gives them. Our flesh is constantly looking for a way to sin and get away with it, without denying ourselves and just fully yielding to God as Jesus did, who was the perfect exemplar. Why give an example if it isn't possible? At some point we have to ask ourselves if we believe or not. I realized a few years ago I didn't believe, so I submitted to believe.

I know sinless in some peoples minds is doing whatever they think God would in their place. The issue is we know almost nothing about God. Therefore, how can you even begin to presume you can do what he would in your place? Another issue is that in many, many cases we can convince ourselves that a sin is godly just because we want it to be so. Does that then mean that I can sin because I really want it to be God's will?

Is the person who died as a child lost forever because they didn't become "sinless" as they didn't have the chance? If they get another chance what does that look like. If they don't get another chance then why is God condemning them forever?

I agree that MMP makes things different. However putting "repentance" off just means the cycle takes longer for some people.

Is it more godly to allow you to take a test as many times as you need to or to permanently ban people from your presence?

Telavian wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:37 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:30 am Again, this is where MMP actually limits people's potential to be like God. You ahve already given yourself permission to sin by believing you can never be perfect until you get to the "correct" probation. Again back to the commandments of God who said "Be ye perfect" Yet we are always thinking "not now" We have the grace of God to help us. God will provide a way for commandments to be fulfilled if He gives them. Our flesh is constantly looking for a way to sin and get away with it, without denying ourselves and just fully yielding to God as Jesus did, who was the perfect exemplar. Why give an example if it isn't possible? At some point we have to ask ourselves if we believe or not. I realized a few years ago I didn't believe, so I submitted to believe.

I know sinless in some peoples minds is doing whatever they think God would in their place. The issue is we know almost nothing about God. Therefore, how can you even begin to presume you can do what he would in your place? Another issue is that in many, many cases we can convince ourselves that a sin is godly just because we want it to be so. Does that then mean that I can sin because I really want it to be God's will?

Is the person who died as a child lost forever because they didn't become "sinless" as they didn't have the chance? If they get another chance what does that look like. If they don't get another chance then why is God condemning them forever?

I agree that MMP makes things different. However putting "repentance" off just means the cycle takes longer for some people.

Is it more godly to allow you to take a test as many times as you need to or to permanently ban people from your presence?

The problem is that the goal was never to be sinless. The command is never to be "sinless" The command is to be Holy. It is to be perfect. You're right they may know about God, but don't know HIm. The only way to know God is through Christ. He is the rock, the revelation of God's love towards us. In knowing Him we know the Father (Show us the Father said Phillip, "Have I been with you so long that you do not me Phillip? If you ahve seen me, you ahve seen the Father" paraphrased) It is denying ourselves, picking up our cross daily, and following Him. It is letting Him form us in His image, but embracing Holy Spirit, by seeking His glory and not our own and trusting in who the Father said He was through Christ. Seek the gift of Charity- everything else will flow from that point. Seek to become love like God, everything else will come from there. And Christ is the revelation of that love in the flesh.

Does the life of Christ speak mercy? or condemnation? Jesus said if they were blind they wouldn't be condemned, but because they say they see they are- that answers the question on children. Do we trust in the character of God. Jesus also said "suffer the little children to come unto me for unto such is the Kigndom of heaven".

Why do we worry so much about how long someone is working in the field? This is the same story as what is traditionally called the prodigal son- the Older son was wrong too, and refused to go into the feast with the Father even though the younger son barely worked a day. See Matt 20: 0 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:30 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:26 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:25 am

You believe Jesus sinned?

Not in his last or final probation, but if you read or believe anything from the King Follett discourse, it would suggest that all (or most) intelligences had a period of growth, which includes a fallen state at some point in their progression.

Again, this is where MMP actually limits people's potential to be like God. You ahve already given yourself permission to sin by believing you can never be perfect until you get to the "correct" probation. Again back to the commandments of God who said "Be ye perfect" Yet we are always thinking "not now" We forget that we have the grace of God to help us. God will provide a way for commandments to be fulfilled if He gives them. Our flesh is constantly looking for a way to sin and get away with it, without denying ourselves and just fully yielding to God as Jesus did, who was the perfect exemplar. Why give an example if it isn't possible? At some point we have to ask ourselves if we believe or not. I realized a few years ago I didn't believe, so I submitted to believe.

I'm not saying that I know everything... but I have to believe that God progressed as well. I say "God" as a title of an exalting Being. In the Nemenhah Records, it actually teaches that the "New and Everlasting Covenant" was intended to end MMP. Christ's role as a Savior and the At-one-ment with the HG allows all who choose to become exalted in as little as one lifetime. I also believe God gives us all agency as to whether we choose to come to this Earth more than one time. Perhaps there are little children who only needed a body at this stage of their progression. Whereas others voluntarily chose to come back for some purpose only known to them and God.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:32 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:27 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:25 am

The question then becomes, what is repentance? Again something I believe mormons teach wrong. They think it is to stop sinning. I don't believe that is true. Repentance is turning towards God (hebrew) and having a change of mind ( greek).

Repenting IS knowing God it is getting rid of our identity and embracing the identity of Christ. Once we embrace Him, we know Him and love Him, we stop sinning- our natures are changed - we become love.

Wickedness has to exist for repentance to exist. I also didn't define what repentance was. Good thing I'm not a Mormon.

What do you believe it is? You do come from mormon roots. Which often influences the way we view things.

Repentance is turning from sin and striving for righteousness. Or as you put it, "having a change of mind." See, we agree on something. Maybe the heavens celebrated for us a little there.

Telavian wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:37 am The issue is we know almost nothing about God. Therefore, how can you even begin to presume you can do what he would in your place?

The Son has done nothing save what He has seen the Father do. If Christ and God are truly "One", then we actually know a lot about God.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:44 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:30 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:26 am
Not in his last or final probation, but if you read or believe anything from the King Follett discourse, it would suggest that all (or most) intelligences had a period of growth, which includes a fallen state at some point in their progression.

Again, this is where MMP actually limits people's potential to be like God. You ahve already given yourself permission to sin by believing you can never be perfect until you get to the "correct" probation. Again back to the commandments of God who said "Be ye perfect" Yet we are always thinking "not now" We forget that we have the grace of God to help us. God will provide a way for commandments to be fulfilled if He gives them. Our flesh is constantly looking for a way to sin and get away with it, without denying ourselves and just fully yielding to God as Jesus did, who was the perfect exemplar. Why give an example if it isn't possible? At some point we have to ask ourselves if we believe or not. I realized a few years ago I didn't believe, so I submitted to believe.

I'm not saying that I know everything... but I have to believe that God progressed as well. I say "God" as a title of an exalting Being. In the Nemenhah Records, it actually teaches that the "New and Everlasting Covenant" was intended to end MMP. Christ's role as a Savior and the At-one-ment with the HG allows all who choose to become exalted in as little as one lifetime. I also believe God gives us all agency as to whether we choose to come to this Earth more than one time. Perhaps there are little children who only needed a body at this stage of their progression. Whereas others voluntarily chose to come back for some purpose only known to them and God.

You don't have to answer me, but I do wonder Why do you "have" to believe that God progressed as well?

The thing is I don't need to know all the ends and outs, but I do know the character of God or am learning it more and more, so I cry out to people so they might taste and see of His goodness and mercy! God is the judge and knowing WHO He is I know He will do what is right at the end time.

These exercises I guess can be fun- I just have learned to trust in God more and who His character is. The world seems to be falling apart I still trust in God. I just see a danger in them because I sense they are more speculation than just focusing on the here and now and what we can do and what God has told us to do and what we are to become now.

Anyways, I appreciate the discussion, though I disagree with you vehemently on quite a few things, I appreciate that you haven't taken offense at anything I've said and anything said wasn't interpreted as being a personal attack on one another. For that, I can say regardless of our opposing viewpoints, I do believe the Lord is working with you!

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:47 am You don't have to answer me, but I do wonder Why do you "have" to believe that God progressed as well?

I'll let you know what He tells me next time I visit with Him, face to face.

Maybe "God" is like the "Dread Pirate Roberts" in the Princess Bride. There isn't any one God. But rather it is a position and when the current holder tires of the duty, he/she turns it over to another. As Wesley - the Man in Black - explained

Roberts had grown so rich, he wanted to retire. He took me to his cabin and he told me his secret. 'I am not the Dread Pirate Roberts' he said. 'My name is Ryan; I inherited the ship from the previous Dread Pirate Roberts, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from is not the real Dread Pirate Roberts either. His name was Cummerbund. The real Roberts has been retired 15 years and living like a king in Patagonia.'

A Disciple wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:53 am Maybe "God" is like the "Dread Pirate Roberts" in the Princess Bride. There isn't any one God. But rather it is a position and when the current holder tires of the duty, he/she turns it over to another. As Wesley - the Man in Black - explained

Roberts had grown so rich, he wanted to retire. He took me to his cabin and he told me his secret. 'I am not the Dread Pirate Roberts' he said. 'My name is Ryan; I inherited the ship from the previous Dread Pirate Roberts, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from is not the real Dread Pirate Roberts either. His name was Cummerbund. The real Roberts has been retired 15 years and living like a king in Patagonia.'

And from his secret lair, he cooperates profusely with his Spirit to fill Lake Mead once and for all.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:52 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:47 am You don't have to answer me, but I do wonder Why do you "have" to believe that God progressed as well?

I'll let you know what He tells me next time I visit with Him, face to face.

As an aside that means in the presence of, or being in intimate contact with and I hope all enjoy the presence of the Lord- He have given us His Spirit with that End!

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 12:03 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:52 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:47 am You don't have to answer me, but I do wonder Why do you "have" to believe that God progressed as well?

I'll let you know what He tells me next time I visit with Him, face to face.

As an aside that means in the presence of, or being in intimate contact with and I hope all enjoy the presence of the Lord- He have given us His Spirit with that End!

His physical presence.

TheDuke wrote: ↑February 8th, 2024, 9:04 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 8th, 2024, 2:15 pm Beautiful post my friend! Your best ever!

Being There wrote: ↑February 8th, 2024, 7:31 am Mosiah 15
1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand
that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son,
because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

RW, this Mosiah verse alone refutes your title premise. He says here that he is not only the Father, but that he is the Father who is in the Godhead.

ok, that is exactly how Mosiah saw things. But Mosiah was during the Law of Moses. He was before the atonement and life of Jesus. He did not have the fullness. He knew nothing of pre-mortality of man. He only knew of heaven and hell. The BoM like the bible is built up line upon line as knowledge was revealed (I know occasionally lost and rerevealed but point stands).

To be stuck on pre-Jesus teachings is just saying that the heavens are closed and there is no new revelation. And while you read it pedantically it is really saying what Joseph says and it is true. But you need to study it out. Jesus was the first born........... then the son, i.e. only begotten in the flesh.......... after the atonement he becomes the father (title)and Jehovah (title). Not sure why this is complicated? Taking one verse from Mosiah and refuting what Nephi wrote in his vision and what Jesus says in his own life and in 3 Ne?

We have been around this before. I'm actually sorry to pipe in as I know you are not open to deeper understanding but I do feel that after all the crap I've given RW, when he is right, I need to chime in and support him.

No way! Mosiah was inspired to write those words because they are true. That's just how scripture works. God doesn't have his prophets write opinion pieces. If you are right, then Mosiah has to be wrong and highly uninspired. He says quite specifically that he is the Father who is in the Godhead. You can't get around that fact, unless you blow him off like you did.

The rest of the BoM is quite consistent with this theology. Go back and actually read all the scriptures in BeingThere's post.

Rubicon wrote: ↑February 8th, 2024, 4:21 pm It seems like what you and others are advocating for is God as eternal consciousness decoupled from anything physical (because anything physical would limit God in some way, right?),

No, not decoupled from the physical, but above the physical. He is more than the physical. He has all power over the physical.

Have you seen The Mask with Jim Carrey. The power of the mask gave him power over the physical. He could change his physicality at will. He wasn't subject to it; it was subject to him.

Alexander wrote: ↑February 8th, 2024, 7:54 pm He set aside his glory when he condescended.

Some would hold the view that this was his first condescension, if so, how much glory could one possibly have attained unto if he hasn't even done this before. Others would say he has continually incarnated and has worked his to the top until he was finally ready to do it all without sin this time. Of course, others would reject the idea that he started at the bottom where we are.

It's interesting how having limited information leads to so many different ideas.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 1:01 pm

Alexander wrote: ↑February 8th, 2024, 7:54 pm He set aside his glory when he condescended.

Some would hold the view that this was his first condescension, if so, how much glory could one possibly have attained unto if he hasn't even done this before. Others would say he has continually incarnated and has worked his to the top until he was finally ready to do it all without sin this time. Of course, others would reject the idea that he started at the bottom where we are.

It's interesting how having limited information leads to so many different ideas.

I think it is very likely that every world he creates that he comes down and shows us the way. This means he assumes a form applicable to that world and lives among the people.

Otherwise, if Christ performed a literal infinite atonement, then only a single world of all of God's creations would suffice.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 12:55 pm

Rubicon wrote: ↑February 8th, 2024, 4:21 pm It seems like what you and others are advocating for is God as eternal consciousness decoupled from anything physical (because anything physical would limit God in some way, right?),

No, not decoupled from the physical, but above the physical. He is more than the physical. He has all power over the physical.

Have you seen The Mask with Jim Carrey. The power of the mask gave him power over the physical. He could change his physicality at will. He wasn't subject to it; it was subject to him.

Isn't that a distinction without a difference in this argument over whether God has a physical body? I mean, Jim Carrey's mask "giving him power over the physical . . . chang[ing] physicality at will . . . [not being] subject to it; it was subject to him" doesn't negate the fact that Jim Carrey's character in the movie had a physical body. That's a unique eternal truth from Mormonism, a truth that according to the poll in this thread still 3/4 of respondents believe, despite the favorable climate here for unique, "out there" views.

What does it even mean for God to be "above the physical . . . more than the physical . . . have all power over the physical?" And why would a physical, glorified, resurrected body preclude all those things? The genius of normative Mormonism is that it doesn't.

Rubicon wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 1:11 pm What does it even mean for God to be "above the physical . . . more than the physical . . . have all power over the physical?" And why would a physical, glorified, resurrected body preclude all those things? The genius of normative Mormonism is that it doesn't.

In my view, if he can take the body off at will then he doesn't really "have a body", but "assumes a body" when he needs one. D&C 93 has been referenced multiple times and has been used to say that a spirit and a body are connected never to be disconnected.

Of course, we can change definitions in this case to whatever we want because it is all speculation anyways. However, what would a physical 3D body mean in realms where there is no 3D space?

Another fun verse of scripture from the book of Acts. How does Jesus stand next to God in heaven?

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

And let us not forget this gem from 3 Nephi:

4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they understood it not.

5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came.

6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:

7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.

9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.

Telavian wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 1:05 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 1:01 pm

Alexander wrote: ↑February 8th, 2024, 7:54 pm He set aside his glory when he condescended.

Some would hold the view that this was his first condescension, if so, how much glory could one possibly have attained unto if he hasn't even done this before. Others would say he has continually incarnated and has worked his to the top until he was finally ready to do it all without sin this time. Of course, others would reject the idea that he started at the bottom where we are.

It's interesting how having limited information leads to so many different ideas.

I think it is very likely that every world he creates that he comes down and shows us the way. This means he assumes a form applicable to that world and lives among the people.

Otherwise, if Christ performed a literal infinite atonement, then only a single world of all of God's creations would suffice.

True. That's more or less the only other position, if it isn't a new God moving upward every time, then it is the same God atoning for every creation.

Rubicon wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 1:11 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 12:55 pm

Rubicon wrote: ↑February 8th, 2024, 4:21 pm It seems like what you and others are advocating for is God as eternal consciousness decoupled from anything physical (because anything physical would limit God in some way, right?),

No, not decoupled from the physical, but above the physical. He is more than the physical. He has all power over the physical.

Have you seen The Mask with Jim Carrey. The power of the mask gave him power over the physical. He could change his physicality at will. He wasn't subject to it; it was subject to him.

Isn't that a distinction without a difference in this argument over whether God has a physical body? I mean, Jim Carrey's mask "giving him power over the physical . . . chang[ing] physicality at will . . . [not being] subject to it; it was subject to him" doesn't negate the fact that Jim Carrey's character in the movie had a physical body. That's a unique eternal truth from Mormonism, a truth that according to the poll in this thread still 3/4 of respondents believe, despite the favorable climate here for unique, "out there" views.

What does it even mean for God to be "above the physical . . . more than the physical . . . have all power over the physical?" And why would a physical, glorified, resurrected body preclude all those things? The genius of normative Mormonism is that it doesn't.

In the movie, yes, but that wouldn't have to be the case. If you have that much power over the physical, you also have that much power over everything below the physical. He could just as quickly take a gaseous form or spirit, or anything.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 6:36 am The footnote for this goes to John 5:19. The implications of this verse would strongly imply that God and Christ are not the same person:

“The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise” (John 5:19).

This could just as easily be a continuation of the description the flesh (the son) having its own will and the spirit (the Father) having its own will. When you have overcome the flesh, the flesh will only do as the spirit wills.