LDS Freedom Forum

A Disciple wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:07 am Agree RW. I see most extrapolations of the afterworld as attempts to apply understanding of doctrine / theology and human fairness to the great question of what happens next? When this is done in consideration of doctrine we know / claim to be true (ie canonized scripture) the extrapolation is mainly just a way of us asserting that God is just and merciful.

Canonized scripture does not provide all answers. The main two questions being the meaning of the Plan of Salvation for those who die young and those born with severe disabilities. Joseph arrived at the determination - consistent with Moroni chapter 8 - that children who die are saved in God's glory. Joseph Smith then extrapolated that such children are saved consistent with God's determination that they would have secured Exaltation if they had been permitted to live out mortality.

This extrapolation by Joseph Smith presents a huge problem! If God already knows the spiritual condition for each of us in the now and in the future, what is the point of mortality? Why have any of us endure mortality if God already knows who are the exalted ones? Just have us born and then immediately die and we can get on with it. To my understanding, there is no fix for the problem Joseph Smith created with his extrapolation that God already knows who is worthy of exaltation.

To my understanding no Christian religion provides a fully satisfactory explanation for mortality. If mortal experience is necessary than what happens to the many who die without having a full mortal experience. And if the answer is such individuals don't need mortal experience then why? This answer brings us back to the question of why have mortality other than to be born? Why bother with all the stuff that happens after birth if we can get an equivalent experience somewhere else?

Observe that after the many decades of LDS leaders declaring the absolute necessity of marriage in the New & Everlasting Covenant, suddenly Elder Oaks teaches that we don't really know much about the afterworld and God is fair and just and we each will receive the blessings appropriate for us. Well how about that! What Elder Oaks has declared is the LDS are no better than any other Christian religion. That despite all the certainty LDS profess about knowing what will happen after we die the truth is we simply must trust God. And I agree! We must simply trust God and live consistent with what we understand to be Truth. If we want to imagine the next life to be a certain way that is our choice. But we must be careful not to claim certainty about our imagination when we don't have that.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:14 am Maybe getting off on a side tangent here. I can start a new thread if desired, but regarding the infants or children on thrones…

Maybe we need to look into what a throne is, in a religious context.

https://scriptures.info/scriptures/tc/glossary/thrones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throne_of_God

Also, maybe we need to learn how long an eternity is.

Also, have you ever thought about how children who die before the age of accountability have it kind of easy? Boom- instant qualification for the Celestial kingdom! Meanwhile the rest of us have to keep slogging away here in the Telestial world. You can kind of see how some insane people decide to murder their young children, knowing that they’ll go to heaven.

A Disciple wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:07 am Agree RW. I see most extrapolations of the afterworld as attempts to apply understanding of doctrine / theology and human fairness to the great question of what happens next? When this is done in consideration of doctrine we know / claim to be true (ie canonized scripture) the extrapolation is mainly just a way of us asserting that God is just and merciful.

Canonized scripture does not provide all answers. The main two questions being the meaning of the Plan of Salvation for those who die young and those born with severe disabilities. Joseph arrived at the determination - consistent with Moroni chapter 8 - that children who die are saved in God's glory. Joseph Smith then extrapolated that such children are saved consistent with God's determination that they would have secured Exaltation if they had been permitted to live out mortality.

This extrapolation by Joseph Smith presents a huge problem! If God already knows the spiritual condition for each of us in the now and in the future, what is the point of mortality? Why have any of us endure mortality if God already knows who are the exalted ones? Just have us born and then immediately die and we can get on with it. To my understanding, there is no fix for the problem Joseph Smith created with his extrapolation that God already knows who is worthy of exaltation.

To my understanding no Christian religion provides a fully satisfactory explanation for mortality. If mortal experience is necessary than what happens to the many who die without having a full mortal experience. And if the answer is such individuals don't need mortal experience then why? This answer brings us back to the question of why have mortality other than to be born? Why bother with all the stuff that happens after birth if we can get an equivalent experience somewhere else?

Observe that after the many decades of LDS leaders declaring the absolute necessity of marriage in the New & Everlasting Covenant, suddenly Elder Oaks teaches that we don't really know much about the afterworld and God is fair and just and we each will receive the blessings appropriate for us. Well how about that! What Elder Oaks has declared is the LDS are no better than any other Christian religion. That despite all the certainty LDS profess about knowing what will happen after we die the truth is we simply must trust God. And I agree! We must simply trust God and live consistent with what we understand to be Truth. If we want to imagine the next life to be a certain way that is our choice. But we must be careful not to claim certainty about our imagination when we don't have that.

A Disciple wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:07 am Agree RW. I see most extrapolations of the afterworld as attempts to apply understanding of doctrine / theology and human fairness to the great question of what happens next? When this is done in consideration of doctrine we know / claim to be true (ie canonized scripture) the extrapolation is mainly just a way of us asserting that God is just and merciful.

Canonized scripture does not provide all answers. The main two questions being the meaning of the Plan of Salvation for those who die young and those born with severe disabilities. Joseph arrived at the determination - consistent with Moroni chapter 8 - that children who die are saved in God's glory. Joseph Smith then extrapolated that such children are saved consistent with God's determination that they would have secured Exaltation if they had been permitted to live out mortality.

This extrapolation by Joseph Smith presents a huge problem! If God already knows the spiritual condition for each of us in the now and in the future, what is the point of mortality? Why have any of us endure mortality if God already knows who are the exalted ones? Just have us born and then immediately die and we can get on with it. To my understanding, there is no fix for the problem Joseph Smith created with his extrapolation that God already knows who is worthy of exaltation.

To my understanding no Christian religion provides a fully satisfactory explanation for mortality. If mortal experience is necessary than what happens to the many who die without having a full mortal experience. And if the answer is such individuals don't need mortal experience then why? This answer brings us back to the question of why have mortality other than to be born? Why bother with all the stuff that happens after birth if we can get an equivalent experience somewhere else?

Observe that after the many decades of LDS leaders declaring the absolute necessity of marriage in the New & Everlasting Covenant, suddenly Elder Oaks teaches that we don't really know much about the afterworld and God is fair and just and we each will receive the blessings appropriate for us. Well how about that! What Elder Oaks has declared is the LDS are no better than any other Christian religion. That despite all the certainty LDS profess about knowing what will happen after we die the truth is we simply must trust God. And I agree! We must simply trust God and live consistent with what we understand to be Truth. If we want to imagine the next life to be a certain way that is our choice. But we must be careful not to claim certainty about our imagination when we don't have that.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:18 am

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:14 am Maybe getting off on a side tangent here. I can start a new thread if desired, but regarding the infants or children on thrones…

Maybe we need to look into what a throne is, in a religious context.

https://scriptures.info/scriptures/tc/glossary/thrones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throne_of_God

Also, maybe we need to learn how long an eternity is.

Also, have you ever thought about how children who die before the age of accountability have it kind of easy? Boom- instant qualification for the Celestial kingdom! Meanwhile the rest of us have to keep slogging away here in the Telestial world. You can kind of see how some insane people decide to murder their young children, knowing that they’ll go to heaven.

And to add another tangent, that brings up the idea of MMP (multiple mortal probations)... and, as you expressed, how long is an eternity. Especially if we progress from "eternity to eternity."

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:20 am
I believe sometimes we focus so much on the next life, that we don't live out the life God has created for us now - we forget that God is with us now, in the form of Holy Spirit because of the blood of Jesus Christ, that knowledge right there is amazing! Rejoice that we are being formed into the full stature of Christ and rejoice that like Christ we will be raised up as a Son or Daughter and be beside Him... the rest of the details don't matter so much- it is how we liver our life now that matters. Knowing God and His Mercy answers a lot of questions, as well as knowing God and His Justice... Indeed Knowing God is eternal life and we can only Know God through Jesus Christ.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:24 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:18 am

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:14 am Maybe getting off on a side tangent here. I can start a new thread if desired, but regarding the infants or children on thrones…

Maybe we need to look into what a throne is, in a religious context.

https://scriptures.info/scriptures/tc/glossary/thrones

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throne_of_God

Also, maybe we need to learn how long an eternity is.

Also, have you ever thought about how children who die before the age of accountability have it kind of easy? Boom- instant qualification for the Celestial kingdom! Meanwhile the rest of us have to keep slogging away here in the Telestial world. You can kind of see how some insane people decide to murder their young children, knowing that they’ll go to heaven.

And to add another tangent, that brings up the idea of MMP (multiple mortal probations)... and, as you expressed, how long is an eternity. Especially if we progress from "eternity to eternity."

I don’t remember if it was on this forum or somewhere else, I think someone said that Joseph Smith said an eternity is 2.5 billion years or something like that? But what even is a year? Which planet? Lol But if it’s earth years, that is a very long time to wait for another mortal probation. If it’s that long, you can see why we would have jumped for joy at the chance of coming here again for another chance to progress. (I do believe we can have multiple mortal probations, but probably a very long time between them.)

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:26 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:20 am
I believe sometimes we focus so much on the next life, that we don't live out the life God has created for us now - we forget that God is with us now, in the form of Holy Spirit because of the blood of Jesus Christ, that knowledge right there is amazing! Rejoice that we are being formed into the full stature of Christ and rejoice that like Christ we will be raised up as a Son or Daughter and be beside Him... the rest of the details don't matter so much- it is how we liver our life now that matters. Knowing God and His Mercy answers a lot of questions, as well as knowing God and His Justice... Indeed Knowing God is eternal life and we can only Know God through Jesus Christ.

I can see that happening where we focus too much on perceived outcomes (the future).

For me, the bigger question is understanding the nature of God's laws and how those laws govern our emergence or path toward exaltation. For example, how important is gender, masculine and feminine? If the nature of God is that God is simply all things combined into one, then gender solely becomes a means for species propagation. But if gender played a role in creation, the combining of divine masculine and feminine (define that how you will), then gender in this life means something. I mean, we can see that heterosexual unions are the only way to produce "seed."

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:42 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:26 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:20 am
I believe sometimes we focus so much on the next life, that we don't live out the life God has created for us now - we forget that God is with us now, in the form of Holy Spirit because of the blood of Jesus Christ, that knowledge right there is amazing! Rejoice that we are being formed into the full stature of Christ and rejoice that like Christ we will be raised up as a Son or Daughter and be beside Him... the rest of the details don't matter so much- it is how we liver our life now that matters. Knowing God and His Mercy answers a lot of questions, as well as knowing God and His Justice... Indeed Knowing God is eternal life and we can only Know God through Jesus Christ.

I can see that happening where we focus too much on perceived outcomes (the future).

For me, the bigger question is understanding the nature of God's laws and how those laws govern our emergence or path toward exaltation. For example, how important is gender, masculine and feminine? If the nature of God is that God is simply all things combined into one, then gender solely becomes a means for species propagation. But if gender played a role in creation, the combining of divine masculine and feminine (define that how you will), then gender in this life means something. I mean, we can see that heterosexual unions are the only way to produce "seed."

I believe the answer is resolved by knowing the character of God. I think too often we ask questions from a fleshy perspective and not from a Godly perspective (I've been guilty of that myself a lot)

Is God the giver of life? Is His purpose to give life and life more abundantly? Yes to both of those.

Does Transgenderism create life or destroy it? The answer is simple in my opinion in knowing who God is.
If we are to be in His image, are we producing life or not? Yes there are exceptions where some are barren etc... but hte intended purpose was to create life. Thus if it doesn't lead to life it isn't of God. Regardless, Our identity isn't to be in our gender, but to be in Christ. Again it goes back to the story of the Garden of Eden- Satan got them to focus on their flesh and their own selfish perceptions rather than on God- they separated themselves from God and God told them the consequences of their actions, the consequences of focusing on self vs on trusting in God. The flesh became a powerhouse and the focus on being sensual rather than being Godly. We aren't supposed to walk according ot the flesh but hte Spirit.

IN my opinion the great deception is actually shifting the argument to the flesh and leaving out the intent from the beginning which was to manifest the image of God to the world- and Christ was that message- He demonstrated to all men and woman what someone was to look like. I believe the world has shifted the argument to be so flesh focused that we don't even realize we shouldn't be battling on those grounds- we are to be Set Apart from the world. Charity/Love of God becoming that is the ultimate goal- that is the image of God. Denying ourselves, and not letting sin against us produce sin in us, and continuing to put in submission all thoughts to Christ.

Charity = the perfect mix of masculine and feminine Charity = the nature of God. As John says Who ever does not love, does not know God. Paul explains this, hammering hte importance of charity over all the other gifts because all of them are needed but for a moment, but to become charity is to become like our Father. Without Charity we are nothing, but with charity- the image of God. Thus we are not hurt by those around us, but hurt for those around us etc... We see people for their potential rather than just for where they are. We offer grace because we've received grace, we forgive because we've been forgiven. We are little Christ like ones- and the Spirit is in us the entire way. As Jesus said "Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God and ALL things shall be added unto you" IF we seek to be His Kingdom and to glorify God, to submit to Him- and that through Christ- all will fall into place. More often though we get self-focused and have selfish ambition and jealousy etc... and from that place comes every evil thing.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 7:56 am LOL, are you serious?

Telavian wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 10:01 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 7:56 am LOL, are you serious?

Yes I am. You are using the discourse to support your argument while also discounting the parts that not are not supportive of your argument. This is cherry picking at its finest.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:59 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:42 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 9:26 am
I can see that happening where we focus too much on perceived outcomes (the future).

For me, the bigger question is understanding the nature of God's laws and how those laws govern our emergence or path toward exaltation. For example, how important is gender, masculine and feminine? If the nature of God is that God is simply all things combined into one, then gender solely becomes a means for species propagation. But if gender played a role in creation, the combining of divine masculine and feminine (define that how you will), then gender in this life means something. I mean, we can see that heterosexual unions are the only way to produce "seed."

I believe the answer is resolved by knowing the character of God. I think too often we ask questions from a fleshy perspective and not from a Godly perspective (I've been guilty of that myself a lot)

Is God the giver of life? Is His purpose to give life and life more abundantly? Yes to both of those.

Does Transgenderism create life or destroy it? The answer is simple in my opinion in knowing who God is.
If we are to be in His image, are we producing life or not? Yes there are exceptions where some are barren etc... but hte intended purpose was to create life. Thus if it doesn't lead to life it isn't of God. Regardless, Our identity isn't to be in our gender, but to be in Christ. Again it goes back to the story of the Garden of Eden- Satan got them to focus on their flesh and their own selfish perceptions rather than on God- they separated themselves from God and God told them the consequences of their actions, the consequences of focusing on self vs on trusting in God. The flesh became a powerhouse and the focus on being sensual rather than being Godly. We aren't supposed to walk according ot the flesh but hte Spirit.

IN my opinion the great deception is actually shifting the argument to the flesh and leaving out the intent from the beginning which was to manifest the image of God to the world- and Christ was that message- He demonstrated to all men and woman what someone was to look like. I believe the world has shifted the argument to be so flesh focused that we don't even realize we shouldn't be battling on those grounds- we are to be Set Apart from the world. Charity/Love of God becoming that is the ultimate goal- that is the image of God. Denying ourselves, and not letting sin against us produce sin in us, and continuing to put in submission all thoughts to Christ.

Charity = the perfect mix of masculine and feminine Charity = the nature of God. As John says Who ever does not love, does not know God. Paul explains this, hammering hte importance of charity over all the other gifts because all of them are needed but for a moment, but to become charity is to become like our Father. Without Charity we are nothing, but with charity- the image of God. Thus we are not hurt by those around us, but hurt for those around us etc... We see people for their potential rather than just for where they are. We offer grace because we've received grace, we forgive because we've been forgiven. We are little Christ like ones- and the Spirit is in us the entire way. As Jesus said "Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God and ALL things shall be added unto you" IF we seek to be His Kingdom and to glorify God, to submit to Him- and that through Christ- all will fall into place. More often though we get self-focused and have selfish ambition and jealousy etc... and from that place comes every evil thing.

I know my comments could be perceived as focusing on the "flesh", but the emphasis is in the divine masculine and feminine. Is there a Father and Mother? Is divine masculine energy (endowments) different than the divine feminine? I think there is something to it. In various records both energies could express their gifts in many different ways, but the masculine could only organize matter, it could not give it life or awareness. That was the gift or endowment of the feminine or our Divine Mother. It also goes to support the idea that we are not solitary entities if we choose to have an increase. So the flesh analogy in this life has greater spiritual appliction in heavenly realms. The Law of Correspondence fits this premise: “As above, so below; as below, so above.”

We also have the Law of Gender: “Gender is in everything; everything has its Masculine and Feminine Principles; Gender manifests on all planes.” I believe gender applies to the Gods.

When God becomes whispy gender, then we have a tendency to justify all sorts of behaviors in this realm that are limiting or stopping progression.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 10:17 am If I were to cut to the chase, I think that when "God" becomes so mystical and mysterious (shapeless), then we lose sight of other truths. I believe that male and female goes far beyond this life and are an eternal aspect of our spiritual identity. The masculine endowment is limited and so is the feminine endowment (gifts). This would suggest that a law in the universe requires the sacrifice or giving of one to the other in order to create. 1+1 in heaven is far greater than our comprehension of 1+1 in this realm.

IMO, when we are "One" with God, it means that the exalted state of one personage is nearly indistinguishable from another. A perfect unison of exalted purpose and love.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 10:23 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 10:17 am If I were to cut to the chase, I think that when "God" becomes so mystical and mysterious (shapeless), then we lose sight of other truths. I believe that male and female goes far beyond this life and are an eternal aspect of our spiritual identity. The masculine endowment is limited and so is the feminine endowment (gifts). This would suggest that a law in the universe requires the sacrifice or giving of one to the other in order to create. 1+1 in heaven is far greater than our comprehension of 1+1 in this realm.

IMO, when we are "One" with God, it means that the exalted state of one personage is nearly indistinguishable from another. A perfect unison of exalted purpose and love.

So what can you do NOW? It is to become love. It is do not violate your conscience and yield and submit and live out the life God has Given as a Son or Daughter- the rest will fall into place. The whole idea of identity outside of Christ is self-focused... which is the opposite of Charity. "Charity seeketh not its own." If we seek identity outside of glorifying GOd we are missing hte point and that is what I'm trying to drive at becaue we aren't "denying ourselves"

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 10:42 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 10:23 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 10:17 am If I were to cut to the chase, I think that when "God" becomes so mystical and mysterious (shapeless), then we lose sight of other truths. I believe that male and female goes far beyond this life and are an eternal aspect of our spiritual identity. The masculine endowment is limited and so is the feminine endowment (gifts). This would suggest that a law in the universe requires the sacrifice or giving of one to the other in order to create. 1+1 in heaven is far greater than our comprehension of 1+1 in this realm.

IMO, when we are "One" with God, it means that the exalted state of one personage is nearly indistinguishable from another. A perfect unison of exalted purpose and love.

So what can you do NOW? It is to become love. It is do not violate your conscience and yield and submit and live out the life God has Given as a Son or Daughter- the rest will fall into place. The whole idea of identity outside of Christ is self-focused... which is the opposite of Charity. "Charity seeketh not its own." If we seek identity outside of glorifying GOd we are missing hte point and that is what I'm trying to drive at becaue we aren't "denying ourselves"

For one, we can teach the value of eternal identity and that homosexual relations are limiting relationships (that's putting it mildly.) Where you see "identity" as "self-focused", I do not. It is understanding higher law. It ponders the workings of the universe and masculine and feminine energies/endowments. I actually think understanding out eternity identity is Charity... so I guess we are at odds there. Personally, I believe that the culture shift we are seeing today falls into the "love all" or "anything goes." Adherence to higher laws or principles leads to greater joy.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 10:49 am And that is where we do Diverge... Mormonism's incorrect interpretation of the Garden story, creates in my opinion, your view point or something similar. I get it, because I used to believe that way too and it makes sense, and we are trained up to think that way, but I would also say that Charity does not anywhere mention gender identity in scripture. Charity is a state of being and to make the flesh- outward appearance and inward actions to focus on a separation is to do a disservice to which Christ came to give, but again, mormonism's emphasis is on self. And I will be clear, I am for "loving all" I just don't beleive that modern culture's definition of "love" is at all what God is. 1 Cor 13 and the life of Christ to me are the examples of what love really is. Even the Greek interpreted it differently than phileos or eros. I do agree adherence to ChARITY which is the higher law leads to great joy. "The Kingdom of God is not meat or drink, but righteousness, peace, and JOY in the Holy Spirit. Anyways, I have said my peace, I won't attempt to shove it down your throat!

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:03 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 10:49 am And that is where we do Diverge... Mormonism's incorrect interpretation of the Garden story, creates in my opinion, your view point or something similar. I get it, because I used to believe that way too and it makes sense, and we are trained up to think that way, but I would also say that Charity does not anywhere mention gender identity in scripture. Charity is a state of being and to make the flesh- outward appearance and inward actions to focus on a separation is to do a disservice to which Christ came to give, but again, mormonism's emphasis is on self. And I will be clear, I am for "loving all" I just don't beleive that modern culture's definition of "love" is at all what God is. 1 Cor 13 and the life of Christ to me are the examples of what love really is. Even the Greek interpreted it differently than phileos or eros. I do agree adherence to ChARITY which is the higher law leads to great joy. "The Kingdom of God is not meat or drink, but righteousness, peace, and JOY in the Holy Spirit. Anyways, I have said my peace, I won't attempt to shove it down your throat!

Uh... my note about gender is not founded in the Garden narrative. It comes from the Nemenhah Records. It is speaking of Father and Mother in Heaven and in order for them to create life they had to combine Their endowments. IMO the Garden narrative is nearly all symbolic. And, I might add, represents all of humanity, not solely Adam and Eve. It representation a separation from God and the sacrifice that Christ made to help us overcome that fallen state... through repentance. We have to know between right and wrong. Without this distinguishing feature in the universe, God would cease to exist. (Again, 2 Nephi 2 and Lehi's discourse on opposition in all things.)

Charity can fill the immensity of the universe. But I also believe that the degree to which we feel God's love is dependent upon universal laws. We learn in John 3:16 that God loved us so he sent his son... BUT, do we consider the conditions to which we bring that love (aka charity) into our lives? A life that accepts Christ as Savior will have an increase in love. A life that rejects the Savior will have a decreased or lessened awareness of God's love. A life of continual sin brings less happiness than a life that is filled with repentance.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:20 am I consider Nemenhah records an offshoot of mormonism. When you become, you see. We think we have to make mistakes/sin in order to see- Jesus demonstrates that isn't true. (maybe that's not what you are saying, but it is what I"m interpreting)

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:22 am As a point of reference, the term "repent" is included 360 times in the Book of Mormon.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:23 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:20 am I consider Nemenhah records an offshoot of mormonism. When you become, you see. We think we have to make mistakes/sin in order to see- Jesus demonstrates that isn't true. (maybe that's not what you are saying, but it is what I"m interpreting)

I think the Records are close to early Mormonism, but blows it out of the water with clarity and doctrinal depth. I'd put it up against and written "scripture" in existence.

Do you think Jesus was always perfect? I don't.

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:25 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:23 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:20 am I consider Nemenhah records an offshoot of mormonism. When you become, you see. We think we have to make mistakes/sin in order to see- Jesus demonstrates that isn't true. (maybe that's not what you are saying, but it is what I"m interpreting)

I think the Records are close to early Mormonism, but blows it out of the water with clarity and doctrinal depth. I'd put it up against and written "scripture" in existence.

Do you think Jesus was always perfect? I don't.

You believe Jesus sinned?

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:25 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 9th, 2024, 11:22 am As a point of reference, the term "repent" is included 360 times in the Book of Mormon.

The question then becomes, what is repentance? Again something I believe mormons teach wrong. They think it is to stop sinning. I don't believe that is true. Repentance is turning towards God (hebrew) and having a change of mind ( greek).

Repenting IS knowing God it is getting rid of our identity and embracing the identity of Christ. Once we embrace Him, we know Him and love Him, we stop sinning- our natures are changed - we become love.