Does God have a physical body? (poll)

[Bronco73idi]

2In My Father’s house are many rooms( mansions depending on the translation). If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

Talking to the Apostles here. Keep in mind all that Jesus has is given Him from the Father.

You are reading too much into this and perhaps forgetting that Christ came to make whole that which was not whole.

Maybe you are not reading enough in it. The Lord schooled the Sadducees for not reading enough into the story of the burning bush when they questioned him about the resurrection.


I have quoted Isaiah 56 in my thread here;

viewtopic.php?t=73923

Your commentary has little to do with what we are talking about.. And the Sadducee's didn't believe in the resurrection.

I thought we were trying to have a conversation, you just want to beat your chest……

Thanks for educating me, a clump of dirt on why our Lord and Savior schooled the Sadducees. I’m so dumb I would never have figured that out!!! Thank you master!!!

[Reluctant Watchman]

I really enjoy this topic and back and forth of many people. The nature of God is a humbling topic for me. People on both sides of the discussion seem so confident in their conclusions and I'm usually not a fence sitter. Shouldn't I have made up my mind by now? How does this question impact my faith journey? I got more questions than answers. Carry on guys

I asked myself this question early this morning. "Why does this matter?" I'm still pondering on that and have a few ideas bouncing around.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Not sure how you drew that conclusion, but yes, we do. See John 17

Oh, I've been amazed at how a seemingly understandable verse can be interpreted in many ways. For example "spirit" can have many forms. I believe we are different than the spirit matter that inhabits plants, trees, or animals. We are unique and individual, not just from a personage standpoint.

I think you may be conflating Spirit and intelligence.

I'm not sure I am. Plants have awareness or intelligence.

[Rubicon]

Because it is proven not to have originated with Joseph.

No, it hasn't.

It also contradicts Lectures on Faith, which we know to have come from Joseph.

This is also debatable. Wordprint studies place the language as Sidney Rigdon (ex-Campbellite minister), not Joseph Smith. The "voice" of LoF doesn't scan as Joseph Smith to me.

With origins of D&C 130, 132, LoF, or whatever, mileage may vary, but the 100% certainty you give for your belief here is anything but to most others. This forum is a sort of echo chamber for cafeteria Joseph Smithism, but it isn't normative or representative.

[John Tavner]

Maybe you are not reading enough in it. The Lord schooled the Sadducees for not reading enough into the story of the burning bush when they questioned him about the resurrection.


I have quoted Isaiah 56 in my thread here;

viewtopic.php?t=73923

Your commentary has little to do with what we are talking about.. And the Sadducee's didn't believe in the resurrection.

I thought we were trying to have a conversation, you just want to beat your chest……

Thanks for educating me, a clump of dirt on why our Lord and Savior schooled the Sadducees. I’m so dumb I would never have figured that out!!! Thank you master!!!

My pleasure- but as Jesus said- call no one on earth your Master, for you have one master, the Christ.

[spiritMan]

I quoted from the original.
The above is a more modern English version.
Look up the original and it says "substance".

Le sigh.

The original word is homousion.

Essence is the better translation... Look up the Greek, which is the original language.

You are going from Greek to Latin to English, rather than Greek to English.

Here is the Greek. Do a Google translate and tell me what it says:

Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Θεὸν Πατέρα παντοκράτορα
ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων·
καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν
τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν Μονογενῆ,
τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων,
Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός,
Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ,
γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα,
ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί,
δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο·
τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν,
καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς παρθένου,
καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα,
σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου,
καὶ παθόντα, καὶ ταφέντα,
καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ κατὰ τὰς γραφὰς,
καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς,
καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐν δεξιᾷ τοῦ Πατρὸς,
καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς,
οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος·
καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ Κύριον καὶ Ζωοποιόν,
τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον,
τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον,
τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν·
εἰς μίαν ἁγίαν καθολικὴν καὶ ἀποστολικὴν ἐκκλησίαν·
ὁμολογοῦμεν ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν·
προσδοκῶμεν ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν,
καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος. ἀμήν.

Deep sigh...
I have attended enough CofE services to know that the Nicene Creed recited in churches up and down the land says "substance".
I care not one jot what the Greek or the Latin says. The Nicene Creed for millions of Christians for hundreds of years said substance, and that is their understanding of the Trinity.
I was accused of believing in the Nicene Creed version of the Trinity, because I quoted the Book of Mormon.
The BoM does not say the Godhead are of the same substance, or essence for that matter.

In other words you don't care that what you have heard people say is an incorrect translation of the Creed. Even though they are wrong in what they say you take what they say as the right version of the Creed.

Yes, the RC changed the Creed. Then the Protestants interpretation changed it even more.

Instead of saying let's find out what it actually says and meant your viewpoint is.. well just throw it all out!

The CoE and the RC do NOT say or believe in the original Nicene Creed- that is exactly the point. There is a reason why the Protestants reformation happened... it happened.

The original reformers were saying RC had corrupted the original creeds and they were trying to go back to rust the original Creeds meant... But they missed quite widely in doing so.

[Telavian]

I don't see any point in discussing this topic with you. You've made up your mind.

And you haven't made up your mind? You have been condescending a number of times in this thread to anyone that disagreed with you.
It is fine to think a certain way, but please don't act like it is the only valid way to think.

[Bronco73idi]

Your commentary has little to do with what we are talking about.. And the Sadducee's didn't believe in the resurrection.

I thought we were trying to have a conversation, you just want to beat your chest……

Thanks for educating me, a clump of dirt on why our Lord and Savior schooled the Sadducees. I’m so dumb I would never have figured that out!!! Thank you master!!!

My pleasure- but as Jesus said- call no one on earth your Master, for you have one master, the Christ.

I know it’s your pleasure is to be condescending. I like to treat others how they treat me…

It’s a sin, that’s one of the reasons I’m clumpy dirt. One day I’ll be dust.

[Telavian]

D&C 93 proves this doctrine yet you find a way to write it off. You don’t accept evidence, you accept anything that you can twist to support your position, and find a way to ignore or dismiss anything plain enough that it can’t possibly bear you out.

93 proves what exactly?

You are assuming element means physical body.
You are assuming a resurrected physical body is the end of the line.
You are assuming that even if we have a physical body that God does.

Why so much assumptions?

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't see any point in discussing this topic with you. You've made up your mind.

And you haven't made up your mind? You have been condescending a number of times in this thread to anyone that disagreed with you.
It is fine to think a certain way, but please don't act like it is the only valid way to think.

Condescending? Really? I guess when you take out any inflection then we can certainly take anything as condescending.

I don't take my viewpoint as the only one. I'm wrong all the time. Shawn can share his strongly held viewpoints just as I can... I just don't care to discuss them with him on this topic anymore. Same goes for spiritMan. I see their logic going in one direction and seemingly contradictory in another. And that's to say nothing of the great assumptions they make about my viewpoints, jumping to all kinds of conclusions. I'd love to share additional research, but nearly every single person who holds a contrary opinion completely discounts the sources that I'd share. So what's the point?

[Telavian]

This is also debatable. Wordprint studies place the language as Sidney Rigdon (ex-Campbellite minister), not Joseph Smith. The "voice" of LoF doesn't scan as Joseph Smith to me.

With origins of D&C 130, 132, LoF, or whatever, mileage may vary, but the 100% certainty you give for your belief here is anything but to most others. This forum is a sort of echo chamber for cafeteria Joseph Smithism, but it isn't normative or representative.

Why does it matter who wrote the LoF? Sidney literally stared into the realm of God for more than an hour with Joseph. Sidney was also a P/S/R. Sidney was told he had an essential future mission.

Joseph worked on the Lectures with Sidney. Joseph accepted the lectures along with the church.

Are you claiming that unless Joseph wrote something then it is not true?
Are you claiming that unless Joseph said something then it is not true?

[Reluctant Watchman]

FWIW, I have seen and read all sorts of scriptures relating to this topic. But I believe at some point we need to take these things to God. Sometimes the scriptures and prophets get things wrong, so to set them down as the definitive answer is misguided IMO. Hence why I've asked if people have petitioned God on this subject.

[Robin Hood]

Le sigh.

The original word is homousion.

Essence is the better translation... Look up the Greek, which is the original language.

You are going from Greek to Latin to English, rather than Greek to English.

Here is the Greek. Do a Google translate and tell me what it says:

Πιστεύομεν εἰς ἕνα Θεὸν Πατέρα παντοκράτορα
ποιητὴν οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς ὁρατῶν τε πάντων καὶ ἀοράτων·
καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν
τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν Μονογενῆ,
τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων,
Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός,
Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ,
γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα,
ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί,
δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο·
τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν,
καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς παρθένου,
καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα,
σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου,
καὶ παθόντα, καὶ ταφέντα,
καὶ ἀναστάντα τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ κατὰ τὰς γραφὰς,
καὶ ἀνελθόντα εἰς τοὺς οὐρανοὺς,
καὶ καθεζόμενον ἐν δεξιᾷ τοῦ Πατρὸς,
καὶ πάλιν ἐρχόμενον μετὰ δόξης κρῖναι ζῶντας καὶ νεκρούς,
οὗ τῆς βασιλείας οὐκ ἔσται τέλος·
καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ Κύριον καὶ Ζωοποιόν,
τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον,
τὸ σὺν Πατρὶ καὶ Υἱῷ συμπροσκυνούμενον καὶ συνδοξαζόμενον,
τὸ λαλῆσαν διὰ τῶν προφητῶν·
εἰς μίαν ἁγίαν καθολικὴν καὶ ἀποστολικὴν ἐκκλησίαν·
ὁμολογοῦμεν ἓν βάπτισμα εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν·
προσδοκῶμεν ἀνάστασιν νεκρῶν,
καὶ ζωὴν τοῦ μέλλοντος αἰῶνος. ἀμήν.

Deep sigh...
I have attended enough CofE services to know that the Nicene Creed recited in churches up and down the land says "substance".
I care not one jot what the Greek or the Latin says. The Nicene Creed for millions of Christians for hundreds of years said substance, and that is their understanding of the Trinity.
I was accused of believing in the Nicene Creed version of the Trinity, because I quoted the Book of Mormon.
The BoM does not say the Godhead are of the same substance, or essence for that matter.

In other words you don't care that what you have heard people say is an incorrect translation of the Creed.

Correct.
It's irrelevant in the context in which it was introduced to this thread.

[John Tavner]

I thought we were trying to have a conversation, you just want to beat your chest……

Thanks for educating me, a clump of dirt on why our Lord and Savior schooled the Sadducees. I’m so dumb I would never have figured that out!!! Thank you master!!!

My pleasure- but as Jesus said- call no one on earth your Master, for you have one master, the Christ.

I know it’s your pleasure is to be condescending. I like to treat others how they treat me…

It’s a sin, that’s one of the reasons I’m clumpy dirt. One day I’ll be dust.

Not condescending, but you can feel that way- regardless of your perception of truth. Have the last word!

[Telavian]

I don't take my viewpoint as the only one. I'm wrong all the time. Shawn can share his strongly held viewpoints just as I can... I just don't care to discuss them with him on this topic anymore. Same goes for spiritMan. I see their logic going in one direction and seemingly contradictory in another. And that's to say nothing of the great assumptions they make about my viewpoints, jumping to all kinds of conclusions. I'd love to share additional research, but nearly every single person who holds a contrary opinion completely discounts the sources that I'd share. So what's the point?

I have discounted your "sources" because you previously claimed the first article of faith as being proof that the Father and Son are separate entities and each have a body.

You may think it says that. However, a logical reading of it only says there are three entities that we believe in. There is literally nothing else that can logically be claimed based on that text.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I don't take my viewpoint as the only one. I'm wrong all the time. Shawn can share his strongly held viewpoints just as I can... I just don't care to discuss them with him on this topic anymore. Same goes for spiritMan. I see their logic going in one direction and seemingly contradictory in another. And that's to say nothing of the great assumptions they make about my viewpoints, jumping to all kinds of conclusions. I'd love to share additional research, but nearly every single person who holds a contrary opinion completely discounts the sources that I'd share. So what's the point?

I have discounted your "sources" because you previously claimed the first article of faith as being proof that the Father and Son are separate entities and each have a body.

You may think it says that. However, a logical reading of it only says there are three entities that we believe in. There is literally nothing else that can logically be claimed based on that text.

AoF doesn't prove they have bodies. I simply referenced that so as to lend credibility to the distinction of Beings. You took it upon yourself to make the assumption that I was using it to prove physicality.

If a person were to read the Nemenhah Records, there's no mistaking that God, our Creator, not only has a physical perfected body, but is also a monogamist with a wife, our Mother. I believe there's great significance in those theologies that awaken a greater sense of purpose in this life.

[spiritMan]

FWIW, I have seen and read all sorts of scriptures relating to this topic. But I believe at some point we need to take these things to God. Sometimes the scriptures and prophets get things wrong, so to set them down as the definitive answer is misguided IMO. Hence why I've asked if people have petitioned God on this subject.

Take things to God how?

As in how are you going to even know that the answer you get is from God? Maybe when you hear something inside it is your own voice, or maybe it's Satan?

[Reluctant Watchman]

FWIW, I have seen and read all sorts of scriptures relating to this topic. But I believe at some point we need to take these things to God. Sometimes the scriptures and prophets get things wrong, so to set them down as the definitive answer is misguided IMO. Hence why I've asked if people have petitioned God on this subject.

Take things to God how?

As in how are you going to even know that the answer you get is from God? Maybe when you hear something inside it is your own voice, or maybe it's Satan?

This really does hit at the heart of personal revelation, doesn't it. Do we believe Moroni 10:5?

[spiritMan]

FWIW, I have seen and read all sorts of scriptures relating to this topic. But I believe at some point we need to take these things to God. Sometimes the scriptures and prophets get things wrong, so to set them down as the definitive answer is misguided IMO. Hence why I've asked if people have petitioned God on this subject.

Take things to God how?

As in how are you going to even know that the answer you get is from God? Maybe when you hear something inside it is your own voice, or maybe it's Satan?

This really does hit at the heart of personal revelation, doesn't it. Do we believe Moroni 10:5?

Sure, I guess if you just get a good feeling about something it must be from God. I mean plenty of people get good feelings that some dude should "marry" some other dude... So there's that!

[Reluctant Watchman]

Take things to God how?

As in how are you going to even know that the answer you get is from God? Maybe when you hear something inside it is your own voice, or maybe it's Satan?

This really does hit at the heart of personal revelation, doesn't it. Do we believe Moroni 10:5?

Sure, I guess if you just get a good feeling about something it must be from God. I mean plenty of people get good feelings that some dude should "marry" some other dude... So there's that!

So you equate personal revelation with "good feelings"? I didn't mention that in the slightest. Can God not open the heavens and reveal any and all truths that are for our benefit?

[spiritMan]

This really does hit at the heart of personal revelation, doesn't it. Do we believe Moroni 10:5?

Sure, I guess if you just get a good feeling about something it must be from God. I mean plenty of people get good feelings that some dude should "marry" some other dude... So there's that!

So you equate personal revelation with "good feelings"? I didn't mention that in the slightest. Can God not open the heavens and reveal any and all truths that are for our benefit?

Yes he can. But so can Satan.

My point is that once you start saying ...... hey this source here is from God even though it teaches things that are contradictory to the Bible, you open yourself up to a whole mess of things.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Yes he can. But so can Satan.

My point is that once you start saying ...... hey this source here is from God even though it teaches things that are contradictory to the Bible, you open yourself up to a whole mess of things.

For one, your view on revelation seems a bit fearful, like you'll always question what God teaches you. And sure, we can be deceived, but what you are suggesting borders on the idea that we shy away from even asking the question.

And two, you assume that the Bible (or any scripture for that matter) is actually correct. I've found that sculptures are a wonderful resource, but they aren't perfect, not even close, nor do they give us a perfect picture of heavenly realities. The only sure witness is the HG. If we can't trust that, well, we'll spend our entire lives wondering and guessing.

[John Tavner]

I think 1 Tim 4: is applicable here: 7 Don’t waste time arguing over foolish ideas and silly myths and legends. Spend your time and energy in the exercise of keeping spiritually fit. 8 Bodily exercise is all right, but spiritual exercise is much more important and is a tonic for all you do. So exercise yourself spiritually, and practice being a better Christian because that will help you not only now in this life, but in the next life too.
NKJV : But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

NASB: 7 But [a]stay away from worthless stories that are typical of old women. Rather, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness; 8 for bodily training is just slightly beneficial, but godliness is beneficial for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

Youngs literal:; 7 and the profane and old women's fables reject thou, and exercise thyself unto piety,

8 for the bodily exercise is unto little profit, and the piety is to all things profitable, a promise having of the life that now is, and of that which is coming;

[spiritMan]

Yes he can. But so can Satan.

My point is that once you start saying ...... hey this source here is from God even though it teaches things that are contradictory to the Bible, you open yourself up to a whole mess of things.

For one, your view on revelation seems a bit fearful, like you'll always question what God teaches you. And sure, we can be deceived, but what you are suggesting borders on the idea that we shy away from even asking the question.

And two, you assume that the Bible (or any scripture for that matter) is actually correct. I've found that sculptures are a wonderful resource, but they aren't perfect, not even close, nor do they give us a perfect picture of heavenly realities. The only sure witness is the HG. If we can't trust that, well, we'll spend our entire lives wondering and guessing.

Okay, sure let's go with that.

Except how do you even know what the Holy Ghost is or how it operates?

How can you even trust this thing called holy Ghost when the very thing that teaches you about it, i.e. scriptures you say are and can be completely incorrect.

[spiritMan]

I think 1 Tim 4: is applicable here: 7 Don’t waste time arguing over foolish ideas and silly myths and legends. Spend your time and energy in the exercise of keeping spiritually fit. 8 Bodily exercise is all right, but spiritual exercise is much more important and is a tonic for all you do. So exercise yourself spiritually, and practice being a better Christian because that will help you not only now in this life, but in the next life too.
NKJV : But reject profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

100%