LDS Freedom Forum

spiritMan wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 9:01 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 4:59 am

spiritMan wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 6:08 pm
Yeap. that's he Nicene Creed.

No it isn't.
The Nicene Creed says the three are of one substance.

It actually says same essence.

Let's take an essential element like pure gold. There is an essence that makes gold, gold. There are certain properties that make gold, gold. It has 79 protons and 79 electrons.

I can take gold and I can make a gold statue out of it, or I can melt it and it turns to liquid, or I can make a gold bar out of it.

Each thing that I make is a different object but composed of the same essence. The properties of gold don't change just because it is a gold bar, vs. a gold statue, vs. a gold sheet. But a gold bar is a different thing than a gold statue.

God, Christ, the Holy Spirit are all of the same essence. They all have the same essential properties that make God, god. At the same time each one is a different person or different instantiation of that essence. And each one cannot be of the same essence without the other two.

That's the thing that is different.

LDS believe that each human being is of the same essence or stuff that God is.
The Nicene Creed (from which almost all other Christian groups derive from) fundamentally believe that human beings are of a different essence or different stuff than God.

That difference leads LDS to believe that God the Father has a physical body.
LDS believe that just intrinsically human beings can be elevated to the status of God b/c human beings are "gods in embryo".

Other Christians believe either a) it's impossible for human beings to be elevated to the status of God b/c human beings are made of a different essence or stuff... or b) that human beings CAN be elevated to being of the same essence or stuff of God, but only through God's grace, through Christ.

LDS believe the only real difference b/w you, I and other human beings and Christ is just that Christ had no sin and we do. So Christ only real role is to absolve us of the sin we have and poof we are now like God .... as long as we have demonstrated that we are "worthy" of it.

The Nicene Creed states, no Christ is made of fundamentally different stuff (or essence) than human beings .... while also having the fundamental stuff that makes human beings, human. If He didn't then he would effectively be an alien. He is not alien, He is both of the same stuff or essence as God while also being of the same stuff and essence that makes human beings human.

Several other ecumenical councils (of which the Nicene Creed was the first) were held to get everyone on the same page as to the balance of what the preceding paragraph means.

The Muslims went the wrong direction; they went to the opposite side of saying Christ was one of the greatest prophets, still born of a virgin (who was ever virgin even after giving birth and never had sexual relations in her entire life), but saying that Christ had no stuff within Him that made Him a part of the same stuff as God.

Other groups went the other way, saying there is the Jesus was just a man and always was a man and that when he was baptized there was this thing called the Christ that descended on Him and he was "divine" only while the Christ was on him-which ended after he was resurrected.

LDS have gone a different way in saying ALL human beings are of the same stuff as God; but this leads to other really bad theological offshoots. Like oh, well now we have to explain how God became God. So now there is some endless train of heritage of gods becoming gods. Which still leads to the exact same problem...how did it all begin? LDS say well there never was a time when there wasn't a train of gods that didn't exist. It just pushes the decision point further back.

The Nicene Creed state there never was a time without God, Christ, Holy Spirit. Christ was always begotten of God.

LDS come up with this weird thing that limits God. Like, God is only the God of this universe, or that God reigns this universe from a planet that orbits a star Kolob, that I guess is somewhere in the center of the Milky Way. Other "Gods" reign other universes. And one day human beings who make it to the Celestial Kingdom will rule their own universe. Of course, what happens if one God decides he wants to take over another Gods universe? I guess it can't happen b/c if it did that God would cease to be God....but then how can God cease to be God?

The LDS viewpoint of effectively the making of a god, attempts to take the unexplainable and condense it into an explainable model for the human brain...but ultimately runs into the same problem. It is ultimately unexplainable!

The Nicene Creed doesn't attempt to go this insane explanatory model of this universe, that universe, God that we worship here, but ultimately God worships another God (His Father).

It just states God created everything we see and interact with period. God is outside creation, outside time, outside space and therefore it doesn't need to be explained.

investigator wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 9:38 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 1:26 pm Jesus is God.
He insisted the apostles touch his resurrected physical body. Then he appeared to the Nephites and had over two thousand people feel the prints of the nails in his hands etc.
So, unless this was some sort of magic trick, he clearly has a physical body and was anxious that we should know.

But yet that body could go through walls or closed doors.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 10:41 am

investigator wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 9:38 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 1:26 pm Jesus is God.
He insisted the apostles touch his resurrected physical body. Then he appeared to the Nephites and had over two thousand people feel the prints of the nails in his hands etc.
So, unless this was some sort of magic trick, he clearly has a physical body and was anxious that we should know.

But yet that body could go through walls or closed doors.

I don't think the text says that.
It says he appeared in their midst. Nothing about a wall or a door.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 10:39 am

spiritMan wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 9:01 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 4:59 am

No it isn't.
The Nicene Creed says the three are of one substance.

It actually says same essence.

Let's take an essential element like pure gold. There is an essence that makes gold, gold. There are certain properties that make gold, gold. It has 79 protons and 79 electrons.

I can take gold and I can make a gold statue out of it, or I can melt it and it turns to liquid, or I can make a gold bar out of it.

Each thing that I make is a different object but composed of the same essence. The properties of gold don't change just because it is a gold bar, vs. a gold statue, vs. a gold sheet. But a gold bar is a different thing than a gold statue.

God, Christ, the Holy Spirit are all of the same essence. They all have the same essential properties that make God, god. At the same time each one is a different person or different instantiation of that essence. And each one cannot be of the same essence without the other two.

That's the thing that is different.

LDS believe that each human being is of the same essence or stuff that God is.
The Nicene Creed (from which almost all other Christian groups derive from) fundamentally believe that human beings are of a different essence or different stuff than God.

That difference leads LDS to believe that God the Father has a physical body.
LDS believe that just intrinsically human beings can be elevated to the status of God b/c human beings are "gods in embryo".

Other Christians believe either a) it's impossible for human beings to be elevated to the status of God b/c human beings are made of a different essence or stuff... or b) that human beings CAN be elevated to being of the same essence or stuff of God, but only through God's grace, through Christ.

LDS believe the only real difference b/w you, I and other human beings and Christ is just that Christ had no sin and we do. So Christ only real role is to absolve us of the sin we have and poof we are now like God .... as long as we have demonstrated that we are "worthy" of it.

The Nicene Creed states, no Christ is made of fundamentally different stuff (or essence) than human beings .... while also having the fundamental stuff that makes human beings, human. If He didn't then he would effectively be an alien. He is not alien, He is both of the same stuff or essence as God while also being of the same stuff and essence that makes human beings human.

Several other ecumenical councils (of which the Nicene Creed was the first) were held to get everyone on the same page as to the balance of what the preceding paragraph means.

The Muslims went the wrong direction; they went to the opposite side of saying Christ was one of the greatest prophets, still born of a virgin (who was ever virgin even after giving birth and never had sexual relations in her entire life), but saying that Christ had no stuff within Him that made Him a part of the same stuff as God.

Other groups went the other way, saying there is the Jesus was just a man and always was a man and that when he was baptized there was this thing called the Christ that descended on Him and he was "divine" only while the Christ was on him-which ended after he was resurrected.

LDS have gone a different way in saying ALL human beings are of the same stuff as God; but this leads to other really bad theological offshoots. Like oh, well now we have to explain how God became God. So now there is some endless train of heritage of gods becoming gods. Which still leads to the exact same problem...how did it all begin? LDS say well there never was a time when there wasn't a train of gods that didn't exist. It just pushes the decision point further back.

The Nicene Creed state there never was a time without God, Christ, Holy Spirit. Christ was always begotten of God.

LDS come up with this weird thing that limits God. Like, God is only the God of this universe, or that God reigns this universe from a planet that orbits a star Kolob, that I guess is somewhere in the center of the Milky Way. Other "Gods" reign other universes. And one day human beings who make it to the Celestial Kingdom will rule their own universe. Of course, what happens if one God decides he wants to take over another Gods universe? I guess it can't happen b/c if it did that God would cease to be God....but then how can God cease to be God?

The LDS viewpoint of effectively the making of a god, attempts to take the unexplainable and condense it into an explainable model for the human brain...but ultimately runs into the same problem. It is ultimately unexplainable!

The Nicene Creed doesn't attempt to go this insane explanatory model of this universe, that universe, God that we worship here, but ultimately God worships another God (His Father).

It just states God created everything we see and interact with period. God is outside creation, outside time, outside space and therefore it doesn't need to be explained.

Just checked.
It says "substance".

nightlight wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 8:46 am He is not here: for he is risen

The committee in 1921 concluded this Lecture was wrong about God the Father because it describes Him as a personage of “spirit, glory and power.” The Son is described as a personage of tabernacle. The committee believed the Father to be a personage of tabernacle as well. Therefore they believed the Lecture was in error. But Joseph stood in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and vouched for the truth of these lectures.

The 1921 committee—who had not stood in God's presence—believed Joseph erred in doctrine. They believed they had “keys” allowing them to change anything. (Even though their “keys” are wholly derived from Joseph, they thought themselves superior to Joseph.) They concluded it was an error to believe the Holy Spirit was comprised of the mind of the Father and the Son. They believed it to be an individual personage based on their reading of 130:22.[177] Other than the statement attributed to Joseph in that single verse, there is no account in any scripture of a personage as the Holy Ghost ever being seen,[178] revealed or shown.[179] It is clear there is a disagreement between Joseph Smith and the 1921 committee. Therefore, either Joseph Smith had an incorrect idea of God’s character, perfections and attributes, or alternatively George F. Richards, Anthony W. Ivins, Melvin J. Ballard, James E. Talmage, John A. Widstoe, and Joseph Fielding Smith had an incorrect idea of God’s character, perfections and attributes.

Joseph believed the Lectures were a true and necessary statement of doctrine to be regarded as scripture. He wrote them to put power into the priesthood, because earlier ordinations had failed to produce the expected power. These Lectures were the Prophet Joseph’s solution to the powerless priesthood.[180] It necessarily follows that either Joseph Smith did not, indeed could not, have faith, or alternatively, George F. Richards, Anthony W. Ivins, Melvin J. Ballard, James E. Talmage, John A. Widstoe, and Joseph Fielding Smith did not, indeed could not, have faith. One or the other is true because they disagree on the definition of God and therefore cannot share the correct idea of His character, perfection and attributes as is required to exercise faith in Him.

Snuffer, Denver. Preserving the Restoration . Mill Creek Press. Kindle Edition.

Talk 2 Faith

Notice that in the definition of the Father and the Son—both, according to Joseph Smith—both are personages. But the Father is a personage who is described as consisting of spirit, glory, and power. The Son, on the other hand, is described as a personage of tabernacle. What is the difference between a personage of spirit, glory, and power, and a personage of tabernacle? What's the difference between the two? What is a tabernacle? I mean, if you’re looking at the Tabernacle in the days of Moses, it is something that got set up temporarily and got taken down. And Christ is a personage of tabernacle, came as you have come, to temporarily occupy this [spoken as Denver touched his own body]. And when Christ was resurrected, this could enter the upper level of a locked room without tearing a hole in the ceiling in order to access the room in which the apostles were meeting. He could come, and He could go, inside a locked upper room, where cowering disciples feared for their own safety in the aftermath of the martyrdom of their Lord. He may have been a personage who could say, "Handle me and see,” and they may have been able to actually make contact with. But that tabernacle was no longer confined here. Read the description of what He did when He appeared to the Nephites. And it's not like your tabernacle. You hope to inherit a better one.

Well, let's take a few scriptures because we ought to pay attention to them on this point as well. Doctrine and Covenants section 131. Doctrine and Covenants section 131, verse 7: There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes [therefore, if the Father, according to verse 2 of Lecture 5, is a personage of spirit, that does not mean that He is not also made of material matter. Spirit is matter, more fine, pure, can only be discerned by purer eyes]. We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter (D&C 131:7-8).

The Father is made—as a personage of spirit, glory, and power—of something that is more refined and pure but is absolutely comprised of something which is matter. Though in the equation of things—energy and matter, glory and power—these are things about which, when you get far enough down the road, you find out that there’s some equivalencies in all of that. The Son, on the other hand, was made to be tabernacled here. The biggest problem, if you turn back to 130, the biggest problem becomes this, verse 22 of section 130: The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us (D&C 130:22).

What exactly is it that dwells inside of you and is a personage of spirit? What exactly is it that you hope to become, if not another member of the Godhead? What exactly is it that Joseph Smith is saying in this Lecture on Faith about the mind of God? And understand, he had in front of him, because he was in the process of actually doing it during this time frame, the Inspired Version of the Scriptures.

Get out Moses chapter 6, and if I’m not mistaken it’s going to be verse 61. Yes, Moses chapter 6, verse 61. This is the definition of the Holy Ghost. And by the way, this definition of the Holy Ghost will read exactly like what we are encountering in the Lectures on Faith. Moses 6:61: Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter [that's another name for the Holy Ghost. He gets to dwell in you, the record of heaven]— The Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things. Joseph Smith said in one of his talks in Nauvoo: “I... know more than all the world…[or] The Holy Ghost does, anyhow, and... I will associate myself with Him.” I’m not going to look that quote up, I’ll probably put it into this in a reference, when I edit the transcript [paper] (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 350).

Joseph Smith is talking about this, the record of heaven, the peaceable things: ...that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment (Moses 6:61; see also Genesis 4:9 RE). The fact of the matter is that when Joseph vouched for this Lecture as being true, he knew what he was talking about. And I don't care what is said by those who argue otherwise. You'll never prove, off of a page, something that is superior to the knowledge that was obtained by Joseph Smith standing in the presence of God. It's impossible to convey. It is impossible to convey adequately all of the information, which is obtained in the presence of God, using the vocabulary and the methodologies that we have here. We stumble upon so many things because we simply haven't adequate information with which to make it be known. Joseph Smith, in the Fifth Lecture on Faith—Joseph Smith, in the translation of Genesis and Moses 6:61…

Joseph Smith understood what he was talking about. And the Father is, in fact, a personage of spirit, glory, and power. And the Son became the Son as a result of descending into the tabernacle that He occupied. And the Father and the Son are one. So also, you can be one with Them if you obtain the same mind with Him. Because that is the intent that They have, to share that mind with you. You need to have a correct idea of God's character, perfections, and attributes. Therefore, since these Lectures were designed to try and give you an acquaintance with what those were, I would commend them to you.

Go to Mosiah chapter 3, verse 5. Mosiah chapter 3, verse 5: For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from...eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. (Mosiah 3:5; see also Mosiah 1:14 RE) Did you notice the description there, like the Lectures on Faith, refers to the Lord Omnipotent coming down to occupy a tabernacle? And the tabernacle is made, as it is made, of clay...

The foregoing was taken from the second talk of the 10 Talks titled Faith. Which can be read in it's entirety here.
https://restorationarchives.net/pdf/201 ... _paper.pdf

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 11:05 am

nightlight wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 8:46 am He is not here: for he is risen

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Is there only one at the table judging as a God? Exalted as a God? Given a Kingdom from His Father to become like Him and the Father?

This is to add to your comment and to this thread. Unless someone finds the scriptures false?

spiritMan wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 11:01 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 10:39 am

spiritMan wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 9:01 am
It actually says same essence.

Let's take an essential element like pure gold. There is an essence that makes gold, gold. There are certain properties that make gold, gold. It has 79 protons and 79 electrons.

I can take gold and I can make a gold statue out of it, or I can melt it and it turns to liquid, or I can make a gold bar out of it.

Each thing that I make is a different object but composed of the same essence. The properties of gold don't change just because it is a gold bar, vs. a gold statue, vs. a gold sheet. But a gold bar is a different thing than a gold statue.

God, Christ, the Holy Spirit are all of the same essence. They all have the same essential properties that make God, god. At the same time each one is a different person or different instantiation of that essence. And each one cannot be of the same essence without the other two.

That's the thing that is different.

LDS believe that each human being is of the same essence or stuff that God is.
The Nicene Creed (from which almost all other Christian groups derive from) fundamentally believe that human beings are of a different essence or different stuff than God.

That difference leads LDS to believe that God the Father has a physical body.
LDS believe that just intrinsically human beings can be elevated to the status of God b/c human beings are "gods in embryo".

Other Christians believe either a) it's impossible for human beings to be elevated to the status of God b/c human beings are made of a different essence or stuff... or b) that human beings CAN be elevated to being of the same essence or stuff of God, but only through God's grace, through Christ.

LDS believe the only real difference b/w you, I and other human beings and Christ is just that Christ had no sin and we do. So Christ only real role is to absolve us of the sin we have and poof we are now like God .... as long as we have demonstrated that we are "worthy" of it.

The Nicene Creed states, no Christ is made of fundamentally different stuff (or essence) than human beings .... while also having the fundamental stuff that makes human beings, human. If He didn't then he would effectively be an alien. He is not alien, He is both of the same stuff or essence as God while also being of the same stuff and essence that makes human beings human.

Several other ecumenical councils (of which the Nicene Creed was the first) were held to get everyone on the same page as to the balance of what the preceding paragraph means.

The Muslims went the wrong direction; they went to the opposite side of saying Christ was one of the greatest prophets, still born of a virgin (who was ever virgin even after giving birth and never had sexual relations in her entire life), but saying that Christ had no stuff within Him that made Him a part of the same stuff as God.

Other groups went the other way, saying there is the Jesus was just a man and always was a man and that when he was baptized there was this thing called the Christ that descended on Him and he was "divine" only while the Christ was on him-which ended after he was resurrected.

LDS have gone a different way in saying ALL human beings are of the same stuff as God; but this leads to other really bad theological offshoots. Like oh, well now we have to explain how God became God. So now there is some endless train of heritage of gods becoming gods. Which still leads to the exact same problem...how did it all begin? LDS say well there never was a time when there wasn't a train of gods that didn't exist. It just pushes the decision point further back.

The Nicene Creed state there never was a time without God, Christ, Holy Spirit. Christ was always begotten of God.

LDS come up with this weird thing that limits God. Like, God is only the God of this universe, or that God reigns this universe from a planet that orbits a star Kolob, that I guess is somewhere in the center of the Milky Way. Other "Gods" reign other universes. And one day human beings who make it to the Celestial Kingdom will rule their own universe. Of course, what happens if one God decides he wants to take over another Gods universe? I guess it can't happen b/c if it did that God would cease to be God....but then how can God cease to be God?

The LDS viewpoint of effectively the making of a god, attempts to take the unexplainable and condense it into an explainable model for the human brain...but ultimately runs into the same problem. It is ultimately unexplainable!

The Nicene Creed doesn't attempt to go this insane explanatory model of this universe, that universe, God that we worship here, but ultimately God worships another God (His Father).

It just states God created everything we see and interact with period. God is outside creation, outside time, outside space and therefore it doesn't need to be explained.

Just checked.
It says "substance".

If it's modified maybe:
----------------
The Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

(The next part was added in like 380)
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.

Amen.
---------------
That is the original. The RC added:
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son

That's known as the Filioque.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 9:31 am God (Elohim), the Creator of our spirits.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 1:18 pm

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 1:17 pm I believe that God takes on the form of whatever "heaven"/dimension he is in so as to interact fully in that realm. So on earth, he would have a physical "garment,": a body. In a spirit realm, a spiritual "garment". And since many written works indicate there are many heavens, there are many "garments" he might wear.

So a shape shifter God like they tried to define in the Nicene Creed?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 1:59 pm LoF is highly questionable. You'd have to put that up against these verses:

D&C 93:33-35
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.
35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.

D&C 130:22-23
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

Which Joseph do you want to believe, one where the source is questionable, or one where it was published while he was alive and in public?

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 12:21 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 11:05 am

nightlight wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 8:46 am He is not here: for he is risen

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Is there only one at the table judging as a God? Exalted as a God? Given a Kingdom from His Father to become like Him and the Father?

This is to add to your comment and to this thread. Unless someone finds the scriptures false?

Isaiah 56:3 4For thus says the LORD,
“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,

5To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 1:10 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 9:31 am God (Elohim), the Creator of our spirits.

False. Read your Bible. The Elohim are the lesser gods, not the most high God. Start with Michael Heiser's work.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 2:18 pm Is it so far out of the realm of possibility that this was referring to being one in purpose and indistinguishable one from another?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 1:02 pm

spiritMan wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 11:01 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 10:39 am

Just checked.
It says "substance".

If it's modified maybe:
----------------
The Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

(The next part was added in like 380)
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.

Amen.
---------------
That is the original. The RC added:
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son

That's known as the Filioque.

I quoted from the original.
The above is a more modern English version.
Look up the original and it says "substance".

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 1:20 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 12:21 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 11:05 am

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.

1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Is there only one at the table judging as a God? Exalted as a God? Given a Kingdom from His Father to become like Him and the Father?

This is to add to your comment and to this thread. Unless someone finds the scriptures false?

Isaiah 56:3 4For thus says the LORD,
“To the eunuchs who keep My sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,

5To them I will give in My house and within My walls a memorial,
And a name better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name which will not be cut off.

Yes yes, they will be higher, but key words

“I will give in My house”

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Some have their own kingdom, house…..

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 5:39 pm

Luke wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 5:28 pm

Dusty Wanderer wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 5:21 pm

I wouldn’t hinge something as critical as the character and attributes of God on Section 130, if genuine scripture is your standard.

Only six of the above words claim to have come from Joseph through W. Clayton’s notes (“is a personage” and “the Holy Ghost”). Everything else is unsubstantiated and cannot be corroborated with anything else Joseph canonized or taught.

More detail about it here:
viewtopic.php?p=1429452#p1429452

There’s at least 5 other primary sources of Joseph Smith teaching that God the Eternal Father has a physical tabernacle.

Okay, so not corroborated by anything Joseph canonized still stands.

But I’d be interested in these other sources of where he taught it. Please share.

I’ll edit “taught” in my post to pending what Luke shares as sources.

Luke wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 1:22 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 1:10 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 9:31 am God (Elohim), the Creator of our spirits.

False. Read your Bible. The Elohim are the lesser gods, not the most high God. Start with Michael Heiser's work.

6397C9BD-4CD9-4F5D-8A31-DD9F4074978E.jpeg

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 1:02 pm

spiritMan wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 11:01 am

Robin Hood wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 10:39 am

Just checked.
It says "substance".

If it's modified maybe:
----------------
The Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

(The next part was added in like 380)
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come.

Amen.
---------------
That is the original. The RC added:
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son

That's known as the Filioque.

I quoted from the original.
The above is a more modern English version.
Look up the original and it says "substance".

Rubicon wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 2:42 pm It amazes me that self-identifying believers in Joseph Smith (even if they reject the current Church) cavalierly reject out of hand things like D&C 130 (God has a body of flesh and blood).

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 3:19 pm No. Purpose. For. Her.

Honestly shocking.

marc wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 3:30 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 3:29 pm

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 3:25 pm It just seemed strange for you to say that a physical body is so limited when Jesus’ body could do much more than your body can do.

What exactly could Christ do with his body that he couldn't do without it?

Receive a "fullness of joy."

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑February 7th, 2024, 1:29 pm

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 3:19 pm No. Purpose. For. Her.

Honestly shocking.

Spirits always existed. Why would a heavenly vagina be needed? Why would an already existing spirit climb into a physical womb?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑February 6th, 2024, 3:49 pm I believe we are different than the spirit matter that inhabits plants, trees, or animals. We are unique and individual, not just from a personage standpoint.