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Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 15th, 2023, 9:50 pm
by A Disciple
Those like me who expect the church to "repent" and return to the cause of building Zion may be perpetuallly disappointed. Maybe I should reset my expectations. How would you feel if the leadership officially announced and taught that they and the church could not lead the saints to the Celestial kingdom? Instead, the best the church could do would be to model the Terrestrial gospel.
The church has historically done a very good job of promoting a Terrestrial gospel. It has stumbled when it has prioritized the building of Zion. Historically the members have struggled to live the higher law required by Zion and church leaders have grown cautious expecting the church and its members to make the sacrifices necessary to build Zion. The main issue being the economies of Zion are in direct conflict with the economies of Babylon. The LDS church has proven it is very skilled in the economy of Babylon - makes it very difficult to walk away!
Of course the church leadership just this past General Conference reaffirmed they are Celestial. Well, President Nelson emphasized members should be Celestial minded. He didn't say anything about church leaders being Celestial. This form of instruction has become the norm for the church leadership - many words on how members should act but few words on how church leaders should operate.
This contrast is understandable given the conflict the leaders have. If they explicitly oppose Babylon they will draw the ire of the World against the church. This will hurt the church's efforts to be a dominant organization in the Telestial world. With this constraint, the best the church leadership can do is to model a Terrestrial gospel.
For when the church leaders feign being Celestial we see the hypocrisy.and this damages Faith and Trust. Would it help if the leadership were honest about their limitations? Observe that Moses resigned himself to not being able to lead the Israelites to Celestial glory. Might it be this is always the case - that only God can lead a people to His glory and a people need to choose to follow God and not men to become "Celestial"?
I want to thank LDSFF contributor Leland41-2 for introducing to me the idea of the church leadership choosing to teach a Terrestrial gospel. Some links to consider:
viewtopic.php?p=1447038#p1447038
https://futuremormonism.blogspot.com/20 ... -2020.html
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 15th, 2023, 11:13 pm
by tmac
Terrestrial, or telestial? At this point, I really don’t see the Church operating at anything higher than a very worldly telestial level.
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 12:46 am
by SJR3t2
Here is something D&C 76 teaches that people don't like. LDS / Brighamite church teaches to follow a prophet, but D&C 76 warns us if we do, you'll go to the telestial kingdom [lowest glory] for doing so.
D&C (LDS 76:98-101) (RLDS 76) (1835 91) (1844 92)
A 98 And the glory of the telestial is one,
-B even as the glory of the stars is one;
--C for as one star differs from another star in glory,
---D even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;
---D 99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.
--C 100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—
-BA some of Christ [the Messiah]
-B-B and some of John,
-B--C and some of Moses,
-B---D and some of Elias,
-B--C and some of Esaias,
-B-B and some of Isaiah,
-BA and some of Enoch;
AA 101 But received not the gospel,
A-B neither the testimony of Jesus [Yeshua],
A-B neither the prophets,
AA neither the everlasting covenant.
https://seekingyhwh.org/scripture-study/2023-05-04/
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 1:45 am
by Robin Hood
A Disciple wrote: ↑December 15th, 2023, 9:50 pm
Those like me who expect the church to "repent" and return to the cause of building Zion may be perpetuallly disappointed. Maybe I should reset my expectations. How would you feel if the leadership officially announced and taught that they and the church could not lead the saints to the Celestial kingdom? Instead, the best the church could do would be to model the Terrestrial gospel.
The church has historically done a very good job of promoting a Terrestrial gospel. It has stumbled when it has prioritized the building of Zion. Historically the members have struggled to live the higher law required by Zion and church leaders have grown cautious expecting the church and its members to make the sacrifices necessary to build Zion. The main issue being the economies of Zion are in direct conflict with the economies of Babylon. The LDS church has proven it is very skilled in the economy of Babylon - makes it very difficult to walk away!
Of course the church leadership just this past General Conference reaffirmed they are Celestial. Well, President Nelson emphasized members should be Celestial minded. He didn't say anything about church leaders being Celestial. This form of instruction has become the norm for the church leadership - many words on how members should act but few words on how church leaders should operate.
This contrast is understandable given the conflict the leaders have. If they explicitly oppose Babylon they will draw the ire of the World against the church. This will hurt the church's efforts to be a dominant organization in the Telestial world. With this constraint, the best the church leadership can do is to model a Terrestrial gospel.
For when the church leaders feign being Celestial we see the hypocrisy.and this damages Faith and Trust. Would it help if the leadership were honest about their limitations? Observe that Moses resigned himself to not being able to lead the Israelites to Celestial glory. Might it be this is always the case - that only God can lead a people to His glory and a people need to choose to follow God and not men to become "Celestial"?
I want to thank LDSFF contributor Leland41-2 for introducing to me the idea of the church leadership choosing to teach a Terrestrial gospel. Some links to consider:
viewtopic.php?p=1447038#p1447038
https://futuremormonism.blogspot.com/20 ... -2020.html
I think you are right.
Joseph failed to establish Zion, Brigham gave it a go but ultimately abandoned the attempt, or at least let it lapse. And from John Taylor onwards to the present day we have moved incrementally further away from the cause of Zion.
The deliberate mainstreaming of the church has led to compromise after compromise in an attempt to be just like other churches, but with the odd tweek here and there.
The mainstream Christian churches can get you to the Terrestrial Kingdom. Indeed, when born again Christians describe their view of heaven and the rewards which await them, it sounds very much like the Terrestrial Kingdom.
The LDS church hasn't given up on the Celestial Kingdom because getting us there was never really its remit. It has given up on the one thing it was brought into existence to do... the establishment of Zion.
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 5:05 am
by MikeMaillet
The next rung up on Jacob's ladder is Zion and this is what Christ is trying to get Adam to establish. Admittance to Zion means that we have been Saved. If we are not Saved at the final judgement then we must spend 1,000 years in hell where hopefully we are in a position to be Saved at the end of the 1,000 years. The thought of spending 1,000 years in a craphole planet like earth or a location even worse serves to motivate me to be better. I have no idea what happens when an individual is still not ready to be Saved at the end of 1,000 years and maybe this is where a permanent location in the Telestial kingdom is assigned.
Mike
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 5:31 am
by Niemand
There was that left wing slogan years ago, "Another world is possible. " I think multiple worlds are possible but bad planning will not get you a better one. The church now is pushing bad planning both from within and without.
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 6:25 am
by A Disciple
I appreciate the comments. The idea that resonates is no man or woman can lead a person to a spiritual level higher than they are at themselves. But a teacher can point the way and invite others to seek a higher level.
The mantra "Follow the Prophet" is a Telestial philosophy. At best this discipline leads to Terrestrial glory. Invariably this code is spiritually damning. A small change is all that is needed. We should Learn from the Prophets. It is only Christ who we should aspire to follow.
I personally greatly enjoy Sacrament meeting. More often than not I am filled with the spirit. I am forgiven. I know God is there. And what is Sacrament meeting? It is common people gathering to share their Faith in Christ. It is a paradox that I am thankful for. Church leadership grows and expands and is ever more in front of the church. But for an hour a week we can have a church service that does not rely on those leaders and does not feign to worship them.
It would require humility for the church leadership to recognize to the members their limitations. Leaders can and should teach to the church and regulate its affairs. But all spiritual elevation comes from a higher power. And inasmuch as leaders suppress the power of God in the church, the church will be held back - the church cowering to the whims of foolish government leaders is one way the power of God is suppressed.
I can appreciate the reluctance of church leadership to admit it cannot save the members. There is a great fear among the elite that institutions and society will crumble without their heavy hand. If people are not loyal to the leaders than it all falls apart! I'm asking the leaders to have more faith. Teach the higher law and apply it to yourselves.
Kind of interesting to observe the church leaders talk about "higher laws" but then stumble so much doing it. The problem is the inconsistent messaging. Some introspection on their part could be very beneficial.
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 6:47 am
by tmac
What have I missed? When was the last time one of the leaders actually talked about higher laws? And when was the last time there was any attempt to live higher laws? Am I missing something?
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 6:58 am
by A Disciple
tmac wrote: ↑December 16th, 2023, 6:47 am
What have I missed? When was the last time one of the leaders actually talked about higher laws? And when was the last time there was any attempt to live higher laws? Am I missing something?
Ministering is advertised as the higher and holier way of service.
https://ca.churchofjesuschrist.org/the- ... holier-way
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 9:09 am
by tmac
Okay. So it’s their own spin on what the higher law is, rather than God’s? Makes sense.
God’s higher laws aren’t defined and administered by a temporal church.
In my view, anything the Church is currently doing in this telestial world is purely telestial.
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 10:12 am
by TheChristian
The highest laws are practiced thru out the earth by many Christians........
"They love and worship the Lord Jesus with all their hearts, minds and strength,
And they love their fellow men"
They are the highest laws of Heaven...........
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 10:24 am
by Thinker
It would be a step in the right direction - honesty.
Admitting the exact nature of our wrongs is the only way we can get close to correcting them & genuinely repenting.
Church leaders pretending they are perfect gods makes them more evil.
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 10:29 am
by Thinker
tmac wrote: ↑December 16th, 2023, 6:47 am
What have I missed? When was the last time one of the leaders actually talked about higher laws? And when was the last time there was any attempt to live higher laws? Am I missing something?
In vain they speak - empty words but with no heart or meaning because they haven’t explored it themselves.
“But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” -Matthew 23
Re: Is a Terrestrial gospel the best a modern church can do?
Posted: December 16th, 2023, 3:38 pm
by TheDuke
tmac wrote: ↑December 16th, 2023, 6:47 am
What have I missed? When was the last time one of the leaders actually talked about higher laws? And when was the last time there was any attempt to live higher laws? Am I missing something?
very rarely. but to my surprise Oak gave a half (maybe 60%) of a talk on higher laws. He talked of the various kingdoms and discussed how just checking boxes of covenant path wasn't enough. We need to obtain the attributes of godliness, he called that "conversion". his talk was pretty good until the end, when he dived back into "falling off the covenant path" by sin. then it smacked of same ole to me. but, like his talk on the constitution a couple conferences back, he at least had a partial talk on valid subjects.
I would say the only other talk coming to mind is the much maligned talk by Christofferson on "sealing powers" or rights to administer temple ordinances, etc... It was an attempt at a deeper discussion. I found it pretty good, others just seemed to get offended by the edge disussions.