LDS Freedom Forum

Talking about the sealing power in another discussion thread the idea was brought up that all members of the q15 hold the sealing power. Initially I understood the reasoning for this view because it was said that the office of apostle holds the sealing power as part of that office (which I had never heard before, but a scripture from the New testament was cited), and since Joseph held the power once he called apostles or sanctioned others to call them, they also had the sealing power therefore. But now I don’t see exactly how this is possible given what the book of mormon says about the power?

God will only give this power to an individual who will not ask contrary to God’s will if the book of mormon is correct. This section of Helaman is talking about the conditions Nephi met in order to receive this power.

Helaman
“yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.…. Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”

But at least two prior Mormon Apostles used their sealing power to enter into or perform polygamous marriage sealing after the 1890 Manifesto officially prohibiting them and then resigned their offices due to this. These two men were Matthias Cowley and John W. Taylor (the son of past lds president John Taylor).

“Taylor was a staunch believer in the doctrine of plural marriage, and had six wives and 36 children. Although the church officially forbade new plural marriages with the 1890 Manifesto, Taylor continued to privately marry additional wives. Under pressure, he submitted his resignation from the Quorum of the Twelve on October 28, 1905.[3] Matthias F. Cowley also resigned from the Quorum at the same time over the plural marriage dispute.[3] The following February, Marriner W. Merrill died. In the April general conference of 1906, the resignations of Cowley and Taylor were presented to and accepted by the general church membership.[3] As a result, three new apostles were called to replace them and Merrill: George F. Richards, Orson F. Whitney, and David O. McKay.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Taylor_(Mormon)

“Cowley was notorious for having performed marriages that contravened the church's 1890 Manifesto...”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_F._Cowley#Notes

And because there is no longer a patriarch of the church apparently, the only two quorums who hold this alleged power are the Q12 and 1st presidency who effectively act as a single quorum these days imo, yet the Q12 has misused this power in the past according to history.

I guess my question is, how was this power allowed to be seemingly misused given what the book of mormon says about it? It seems to me that either they don’t hold the power and it’s just show or else the power is basically being “franchised” and was abused by two former LDS apostles, which I can’t account for how that is even possible in scripture. Am I missing something?

Obviously, God wants to ensure that His power to seal will not be abused. It can only be carried by a soul who is one with God.

The way we use "sealing power" in the church is obviously not up to standard. How many unrepentant, deceptive homosexuals are "sealed" to their wives in the temple? Did the temple sealer ever receive the assurance from God that he wouldn't ask for anything contrary to God's will? Is it God's will that this young lady be forever paired with a lying, unfaithful, unrepentant homosexual? A person with true sealing power wouldn't be in a position to rubber-stamp sealing marriages, but great discernment would be used to know God's will.

It's a mess.

The only conclusion is that whatever the leaders do is the will of God. Otherwise, you get into a conundrum that the leaders are something wrong.
If you assume that when they are wrong then God still wants you to follow them, then you have to assume that God sometimes wants you to do wrong things.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 3:01 pm Obviously, God wants to ensure that His power to seal will not be abused. It can only be carried by a soul who is one with God.

The way we use "sealing power" in the church is obviously not up to standard. How many unrepentant, deceptive homosexuals are "sealed" to their wives in the temple? Did the temple sealer ever receive the assurance from God that he wouldn't ask for anything contrary to God's will? Is it God's will that this young lady be forever paired with a lying, unfaithful, unrepentant homosexual? A person with true sealing power wouldn't be in a position to rubber-stamp sealing marriages, but great discernment would be used to know God's will.

It's a mess.

It doesn’t make any sense to me honestly. I can’t see how this isn’t offensive in God’s sight. The lds church claims to hold this very important and sacred power but then their apostles have abused it in the past and they can’t seem to provide a scripturally backed explanation of how this is possible. How is this not offensive to god?

Telavian wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 3:38 pm The only conclusion is that whatever the leaders do is the will of God. Otherwise, you get into a conundrum that the leaders are something wrong.
If you assume that when they are wrong then God still wants you to follow them, then you have to assume that God sometimes wants you to do wrong things.

I think you’re probably right but this is literally a doctrine of hell! It’s literally teaching others it’s acceptable and good for men to openly claim the highest power from god that they don’t actually have or else have abused. I don’t see how this level of confusion can be from god. Yet I meet many people who are very insistent that this is the case yet can’t explain it. They always just end up saying how they know whoever the current president of the church is is a prophet of god because of emotions they claim to have felt.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:22 am I think you’re probably right but this is literally a doctrine of hell! It’s literally teaching others it’s acceptable and good for men to openly claim the highest power from god that they don’t actually have or else have abused. I don’t see how this level of confusion can be from god. Yet I meet many people who are very insistent that this is the case yet can’t explain it. They always just end up saying how they know whoever the current president of the church is is a prophet of god because of emotions they claim to have felt.

People can convince themselves of anything. I doubt the 12 or First Presidency think anything is wrong. They were told by others something and they believe it themselves.

President Nelson very likely thinks he is a prophet because he prays and seeks God's guidance. He quotes things from the scriptures, which he believes in, and then the membership claims it is all prophetic.

It is like an echo chamber. If people claim something about you for long enough then you start to believe it yourself. Therefore, at some point when you claim it then you are speaking the truth in your mind. This is why only God can judge.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:18 am

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 3:01 pm Obviously, God wants to ensure that His power to seal will not be abused. It can only be carried by a soul who is one with God.

The way we use "sealing power" in the church is obviously not up to standard. How many unrepentant, deceptive homosexuals are "sealed" to their wives in the temple? Did the temple sealer ever receive the assurance from God that he wouldn't ask for anything contrary to God's will? Is it God's will that this young lady be forever paired with a lying, unfaithful, unrepentant homosexual? A person with true sealing power wouldn't be in a position to rubber-stamp sealing marriages, but great discernment would be used to know God's will.

It's a mess.

It doesn’t make any sense to me honestly. I can’t see how this isn’t offensive in God’s sight. The lds church claims to hold this very important and sacred power but then their apostles have abused it in the past and they can’t seem to provide a scripturally backed explanation of how this is possible. How is this not offensive to god?

It must be offensive to God. Sealing authority has become nothing more than rubber-stamping marriage sealings, regardless of whether the marriage is God's will. I mean, we have agency and can choose who to marry, but we can't force God's hand to seal a marriage that isn't God's will. When I got married, I found someone I wanted to marry, but more important to me was always, "God, is this who you want me to marry?" The temple sealer obviously had no idea. We had a recommend. That's all that mattered. So he rubber-stamped our marriage sealing.

I wonder if temple sealers feel they have the authority to forbid a marriage sealing from taking place. I wonder if they seek for and get a confirmation from God each time. I wonder if they realize how much of a mockery of God it is to claim sealing authority and to use it like a franchise making a burger to order, rubber-stamping the sealings.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:46 am I wonder if temple sealers feel they have the authority to forbid a marriage sealing from taking place. I wonder if they seek for and get a confirmation from God each time. I wonder if they realize how much of a mockery of God it is to claim sealing authority and to use it like a franchise making a burger to order, rubber-stamping the sealings.

I doubt they do. We are told in the scriptures that before any ordinance or blessing we are to pray and seek God's guidance. However, I have never heard this talked about in church.

Imagine the horror if the sealer walked out and said that he wasn't going to do the marriage because God didn't want it. This would be front page news and the LDS church would look horrible. It may have happened before however I seriously doubt it.

When I prayed and asked God if I should marry my wife, I didn't know much about the way God works or how he talks to me. I am not saying I made a wrong choice, however if it was wrong then I certainly didn't know how to listen to the response.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:38 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:22 am I think you’re probably right but this is literally a doctrine of hell! It’s literally teaching others it’s acceptable and good for men to openly claim the highest power from god that they don’t actually have or else have abused. I don’t see how this level of confusion can be from god. Yet I meet many people who are very insistent that this is the case yet can’t explain it. They always just end up saying how they know whoever the current president of the church is is a prophet of god because of emotions they claim to have felt.

People can convince themselves of anything. I doubt the 12 or First Presidency think anything is wrong. They were told by others something and they believe it themselves.

President Nelson very likely thinks he is a prophet because he prays and seeks God's guidance. He quotes things from the scriptures, which he believes in, and then the membership claims it is all prophetic.

It is like an echo chamber. If people claim something about you for long enough then you start to believe it yourself. Therefore, at some point when you claim it then you are speaking the truth in your mind. This is why only God can judge.

It seems like very rank institutional apostasy and also hypocrisy to me.

To be actively teaching millions of members to believe that 15 men and one in particular hold all earthly keys to God’s kingdom including the *literal sealing power* of God for doing nothing more than occupying a certain office in an organization seems to me like some of the greatest control and brainwashing Satan has over any religious group of people.

And then to have members of your quorum abuse that power and not even excommunicate them or hold a formal disciplinary council but only ask them to resign their office and yet they abused the most sacred power that God has ever given to man to my knowledge seems extremely blasphemous to me. Yet they excommunicate members for posting things online that openly criticize parts of the church.

Which is worse — saying you don’t believe RMN is a prophet on Facebook…. or abusing god’s literal sealing power in order to secretly seal polygamous marriages against the direct and public wishes of the standing president of the church at that time? It just seems so absurd and obviously false to me.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:58 am And then to have members of your quorum abuse that power and not even excommunicate them or hold a formal disciplinary council but only ask them to resign their office and yet they abused the most sacred power that God has ever given to man to my knowledge seems extremely blasphemous to me. Yet they excommunicate members for posting things online that openly criticize parts of the church.

I guess that main problem with this logic is that, essentially by definition, whatever they do is the will of God. I know this sounds absurd however this is how it is defined in the LDS church. Apostasy is going against the leaders therefore the leaders are essentially a god on earth. At least this is how the members view it.

Therefore, the leaders can't do anything wrong and therefore can't be punished for doing wrong things which are impossible to do.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:52 am

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:46 am I wonder if temple sealers feel they have the authority to forbid a marriage sealing from taking place. I wonder if they seek for and get a confirmation from God each time. I wonder if they realize how much of a mockery of God it is to claim sealing authority and to use it like a franchise making a burger to order, rubber-stamping the sealings.

When I prayed and asked God if I should marry my wife, I didn't know much about the way God works or how he talks to me. I am not saying I made a wrong choice, however if it was wrong then I certainly didn't know how to listen to the response.

Thus we see the need for someone with true sealing power---someone mature in the gospel, who is one with God, and who will not ask amiss. In today's temple franchise model, sealers don't need to know if it's God's will. The couples come with a fancy recommend that says they're worthy. The only person's will that is considered relevant is the will of each individual in the marriage. When is God consulted by the sealer? When did His revelation come for each individual marriage? Does the sealer only need to know the couple's choice, and that equals God's will? I don't think sealing power is that simple.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:06 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:58 am And then to have members of your quorum abuse that power and not even excommunicate them or hold a formal disciplinary council but only ask them to resign their office and yet they abused the most sacred power that God has ever given to man to my knowledge seems extremely blasphemous to me. Yet they excommunicate members for posting things online that openly criticize parts of the church.

I guess that main problem with this logic is that, essentially by definition, whatever they do is the will of God. I know this sounds absurd however this is how it is defined in the LDS church. Apostasy is going against the leaders therefore the leaders are essentially a god on earth. At least this is how the members view it.

Therefore, the leaders can't do anything wrong and therefore can't be punished for doing wrong things which are impossible to do.

I guess what you’re saying makes sense but it just seems like the most rank form of apostasy I’ve ever heard of. They’ve basically installed themselves as gods on earth! It seems like they are under the complete control of Satan to me honestly or else how would they be comfortable claiming to hold Gods most sacred sealing power only to abuse it? It sounds bad I know but I don’t know how else to see this?

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:58 am Which is worse — saying you don’t believe RMN is a prophet on Facebook…. or abusing god’s literal sealing power in order to secretly seal polygamous marriages against the direct and public wishes of the standing president of the church at that time? It just seems so absurd and obviously false to me.

Historically, in the LDS church, there have been public pronouncements and private actions. I doubt the polygamous marriages were against the actual wishes of the president of the church.

I think there is some truth to the concept of lying for the Lord or the ends justify the means. If we "further God's work" then nothing else matters essentially.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:08 am

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:52 am

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:46 am I wonder if temple sealers feel they have the authority to forbid a marriage sealing from taking place. I wonder if they seek for and get a confirmation from God each time. I wonder if they realize how much of a mockery of God it is to claim sealing authority and to use it like a franchise making a burger to order, rubber-stamping the sealings.

When I prayed and asked God if I should marry my wife, I didn't know much about the way God works or how he talks to me. I am not saying I made a wrong choice, however if it was wrong then I certainly didn't know how to listen to the response.

Thus we see the need for someone with true sealing power---someone mature in the gospel, who is one with God, and who will not ask amiss. In today's temple franchise model, sealers don't need to know if it's God's will. The couples come with a fancy recommend that says they're worthy. The only person's will that is considered relevant is the will of each individual in the marriage. When is God consulted by the sealer? When did His revelation come for each individual marriage? Does the sealer only need to know the couple's choice, and that equals God's will? I don't think sealing power is that simple.

Yes exactly. And if I’m being honest this just strikes me as complete and total apostasy and blasphemy to me. To claim you can seal marriages for eternity is a lie and gives false hope doesn’t it?

I think the *idea* of eternal marriage are very beautiful but to make a cheap and fake copy of them seems as equally grotesque as the true idea seems beautiful to my mind.

But if they truly have the sealing power how is it possible that they abused it to seal unsanctioned polygamous marriages? I feel so bad for the women back then.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:12 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:58 am Which is worse — saying you don’t believe RMN is a prophet on Facebook…. or abusing god’s literal sealing power in order to secretly seal polygamous marriages against the direct and public wishes of the standing president of the church at that time? It just seems so absurd and obviously false to me.

Historically, in the LDS church, there have been public pronouncements and private actions. I doubt the polygamous marriages were against the actual wishes of the president of the church.

I think there is some truth to the concept of lying for the Lord or the ends justify the means. If we "further God's work" then nothing else matters essentially.

This is possible I agree. But then that means the standing president of the church lied to every member, the public and the US government when he read the 1890 Manifesto which is a legally binding document as far as I’m aware. That would mean the prophet of god is *on the record* as having outright lied to the world!

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:09 am It seems like they are under the complete control of Satan to me honestly or else how would they be comfortable claiming to hold Gods most sacred sealing power only to abuse it? It sounds bad I know but I don’t know how else to see this?

God works with us at whatever capacity we are willing. He always gives us what we need and then if we reject that he gives us what we want.
His overall goal is our happiness. Of course, he knows that the truth will lead us to the most happiness, however many don't care for the truth.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:16 am This is possible I agree. But then that means the standing president of the church lied to every member, the public and the US government when he read the 1890 Manifesto which is a legally binding document as far as I’m aware. That would mean the prophet of god is *on the record* as having outright lied to the world!

True. However, the laws of man mean nothing when speaking of religion.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:19 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:16 am This is possible I agree. But then that means the standing president of the church lied to every member, the public and the US government when he read the 1890 Manifesto which is a legally binding document as far as I’m aware. That would mean the prophet of god is *on the record* as having outright lied to the world!

True. However, the laws of man mean nothing when speaking of religion.

Sure but lying is not against the law typically. But lying is against God’s law. So either Wilfred Woodruff lied when he read the manifesto or else the two apostles abused the sealing power when they performed polygamous marriages after the manifesto was read.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:14 am

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:08 am

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 9:52 am

When I prayed and asked God if I should marry my wife, I didn't know much about the way God works or how he talks to me. I am not saying I made a wrong choice, however if it was wrong then I certainly didn't know how to listen to the response.

Thus we see the need for someone with true sealing power---someone mature in the gospel, who is one with God, and who will not ask amiss. In today's temple franchise model, sealers don't need to know if it's God's will. The couples come with a fancy recommend that says they're worthy. The only person's will that is considered relevant is the will of each individual in the marriage. When is God consulted by the sealer? When did His revelation come for each individual marriage? Does the sealer only need to know the couple's choice, and that equals God's will? I don't think sealing power is that simple.

Yes exactly. And if I’m being honest this just strikes me as complete and total apostasy and blasphemy to me. To claim you can seal marriages for eternity is a lie and gives false hope doesn’t it?

I think the *idea* of eternal marriage are very beautiful but to make a cheap and fake copy of them seems as equally grotesque as the true idea seems beautiful to my mind.

But if they truly have the sealing power how is it possible that they abused it to seal unsanctioned polygamous marriages? I feel so bad for the women back then.

I don't want to make this a polygamy thread, but I just want to say that I believe polygyny is true and right with the following caveats: it must be God's will for the individuals so involved and it must be lived according to true principle and laws governing it. Most of the time, including our early church, it wasn't lived righteously and likely wasn't God's will for many of the marriages. So we face the same problem: when did their sealers get God's revelation that the marriages were God's will...not marriage in general, but the specific marriages. Or were they just rubber-stamping, like today's sealers.

Try reading the GC talk on sealing powers etc... in the other thread (Christofferson). He starts off, seemingly correctly but calls it the power to administer sealing ordinances. He intimates later it is actual power but that is given to be for individuals to be sealed up by HSoP. He clearly says out of the chute that the power claimed is the power to administer sealing ordinances.

For some reason the OP says "misuse", but it seems in the opening discussion to be more like "misrepresentation" is the issue. As far as what happens publicly with the administering ordinances (baptism, laying on of hands, sacrament, endowment of power, eternal marriage) they only administer the ordinances of salvation and exaltation and there is no misuse there. It is a gift for all to have, if they desire it. It is then up to the individual to obtain the actual sealing by the comforter/Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit of Promise.

Now I there are those on the forum the will say the "misuse" is found in their determination of worthiness in the temple recommend questions. I frankly don't like them, but if they are a stumbling block to any normal person, a person with a brain (as opposed to sheep), then there are no issues, especially with complying long enough to get your live ordinances.

The question was asked as how they have the power. Firstly, I didn't see Christofferson really talking about their power but the power of the HSoP. Terms are used wrongly. Really, he is talking of "authority" or the power to administer, not the power to seal. It is a BS statement by FF members to say PH power when they mean PH authority. Also BS by some GA's claiming it is power, sure. But, again terms are often overloaded and misused. I don't see it going beyond ill defined terms. In the BoM no authority line was ever stated outside of the 12 disciples when Jesus came. In bible, at least NT, it was Jesus laying on his hands to the 12. After his death they cast lots? So, to claim some of the power Christofferson was talking about, which is really authority is mentioned in the BoM is just plain wrong (show me). Lets not confuse power with authority when being precise The LDS claim of authority is not straight forward. I looked it up on the LDS.org to see as I found no story by Joseph himself in canon. Turns out his claim is strange. He says (after church was formally organized according to Whitmer) that he realized he had been ordained by PJJ who were apostles of Jesus and received all the power they had. The claim then goes that all Joseph ordained as apostles had the same power, hence all 15 are ordained apostles.

I don't know that this is true or not. What I have been told is that Joseph received the fullness of the priesthood. I personally have not been told how he got it but that he did. It also says that once such authority is given, it can be passed on. Joseph is warned against losing the "power" in the D&C revelation and it is promised the "authority" cannot be taken. The Lord says even in full blown out sin, the PH has the right to confer the PH authority on another to pass it on. We see this in Eli of old and others. This is the basis for saying the Q15 have the sealing power which is really only claimed to be rights to perform sealing ordinances so the HSoP can perform the sealing.

Lastly, I will throw out one wrinkle, the secret but known second anointing. The second anointing that exists is a claim to sealing power. It is not preached publicly, so it is hard to decipher the details. but it seems they would claim to have the rights to act as HSoP. I personally don't accept this. I feel this is likely the fullness of the PH that was lost. Joseph, like Elijah had the fullness of the PH and was given the right to seal up or bind eternal things on the earth. I don't feel that was passed on, only the rights to administer the sealing ordinances. I don't see that as being apostolic but by a true High Priest. Likely all true HPs have the same power if given by god. Elijah had the power but not the right to pass it on, even with his mantle; god gave it to Elias, not Elijah. so, if a PSR had the sealing power vs. administrative right to sealing ordinances; it would have to be given in each instance by the Lord himself as he did Elijah and Enoch and others. IMO.

I feel this is a good topic but I feel the title in the OP is disingenuous and misleading, likely to cast a negative light on the leadership vs. truly asking a question, but I don't know, perhaps Fractal just doesn't use accurate terms any better than the PSR's, I'm willing to give the benefit of understanding to both equally.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:33 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:14 am

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:08 am

Thus we see the need for someone with true sealing power---someone mature in the gospel, who is one with God, and who will not ask amiss. In today's temple franchise model, sealers don't need to know if it's God's will. The couples come with a fancy recommend that says they're worthy. The only person's will that is considered relevant is the will of each individual in the marriage. When is God consulted by the sealer? When did His revelation come for each individual marriage? Does the sealer only need to know the couple's choice, and that equals God's will? I don't think sealing power is that simple.

Yes exactly. And if I’m being honest this just strikes me as complete and total apostasy and blasphemy to me. To claim you can seal marriages for eternity is a lie and gives false hope doesn’t it?

I think the *idea* of eternal marriage are very beautiful but to make a cheap and fake copy of them seems as equally grotesque as the true idea seems beautiful to my mind.

But if they truly have the sealing power how is it possible that they abused it to seal unsanctioned polygamous marriages? I feel so bad for the women back then.

I don't want to make this a polygamy thread, but I just want to say that I believe polygyny is true and right with the following caveats: it must be God's will for the individuals so involved and it must be lived according to true principle and laws governing it. Most of the time, including our early church, it wasn't lived righteously and likely wasn't God's will for many of the marriages. So we face the same problem: when did their sealers get God's revelation that the marriages were God's will...not marriage in general, but the specific marriages. Or were they just rubber-stamping, like today's sealers.

I have no problem if consenting adults want to practice polygamy. But I don’t see how either

a) WW lied when he read the 1890 Manifesto discontinuing polygamy of this wasn’t actually God’s will
Or
b) the two apostles who sealed or entered into polygamous marriages after the manifesto was read didn’t abuse their sealing power

So this implies either they never had the sealing power to begin with (but maybe somehow thought they did?!) and were misleading men and especially women into polygamous marriages without having any actual power to seal them. Or WW openly lied to all the world when he read the 1890 Manifesto.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:27 am

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:19 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:16 am This is possible I agree. But then that means the standing president of the church lied to every member, the public and the US government when he read the 1890 Manifesto which is a legally binding document as far as I’m aware. That would mean the prophet of god is *on the record* as having outright lied to the world!

True. However, the laws of man mean nothing when speaking of religion.

Sure but lying is not against the law typically. But lying is against God’s law. So either Wilfred Woodruff lied when he read the manifesto or else the two apostles abused the sealing power when they performed polygamous marriages after the manifesto was read.

I forget what thread it was- something about are marriages sealed... I believe that the actual sealing power (meaning: The Holy Order after The Order of The Son of God- also the Patriarchal Priesthood) was taken from the earth at the time of the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. It had already been Taken from the church-but not from Joseph - which is why they were commanded to build the Nauvoo Temple in the time frame the Lord gave ( see D&C 124) they did not finish the Temple, Joseph and Hyrum were martyred and "the saints fled into the wilderness" Brigham took over to control the church and yes, Wilford W. lied and the church abuses their so called priesthood.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:08 am
The only person's will that is considered relevant is the will of each individual in the marriage. When is God consulted by the sealer? When did His revelation come for each individual marriage? Does the sealer only need to know the couple's choice, and that equals God's will? I don't think sealing power is that simple.

If you read the words of the marriage covenants and ceremony. It is extremely clear. At least the pre-1990 one I found on line and has been posted on this forum recently. It is very, very clear that the sealer has only the authority to perform the ordinance and all blessing ascertaining to this ..... are from faithfulness and the Lord agreeing. To be clear, it is obvious that very few (or at least a minority) of temple marriages will be sealed by the HSoP. to be so both must want it so badly as to give themselves forever to their partner. bot must be worthy of the highest level of celestial "now" in this eternal round. And god must approve, i.e. he knows they are eternally compatible.

this might make many feel like it isn't too valuable then. But given eternal progression, it is truly remarkable, and may require a few tries in mortality to get the right pair. I mean most on forum are on second or third partnership as well, even those with temple marriages, sorry to say. in this one mortality alone.

again the NEED god put on the earth is not the "sealing power" per se but the "authority to perform the sealing ordinances". This was held back to this dispensation and has been looked forward to, according to the Lord, since the foundations (premortal council) of this world! To take it lightly is a very big mistake, but only if you're one of those ready in this eternal round to capture the highest level of celestial, few are, which is why so few even accept the concepts of exaltation.... just not ready. But one day they will be!

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:37 am

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:33 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:14 am

Yes exactly. And if I’m being honest this just strikes me as complete and total apostasy and blasphemy to me. To claim you can seal marriages for eternity is a lie and gives false hope doesn’t it?

I think the *idea* of eternal marriage are very beautiful but to make a cheap and fake copy of them seems as equally grotesque as the true idea seems beautiful to my mind.

But if they truly have the sealing power how is it possible that they abused it to seal unsanctioned polygamous marriages? I feel so bad for the women back then.

I don't want to make this a polygamy thread, but I just want to say that I believe polygyny is true and right with the following caveats: it must be God's will for the individuals so involved and it must be lived according to true principle and laws governing it. Most of the time, including our early church, it wasn't lived righteously and likely wasn't God's will for many of the marriages. So we face the same problem: when did their sealers get God's revelation that the marriages were God's will...not marriage in general, but the specific marriages. Or were they just rubber-stamping, like today's sealers.

I have no problem if consenting adults want to practice polygamy. But I don’t see how either

a) WW lied when he read the 1890 Manifesto discontinuing polygamy of this wasn’t actually God’s will
Or
b) the two apostles who sealed or entered into polygamous marriages after the manifesto was read didn’t abuse their sealing power

So this implies either they never had the sealing power to begin with (but maybe somehow thought they did?!) and were misleading men and especially women into polygamous marriages without having any actual power to seal them. Or WW openly lied to all the world when he read the 1890 Manifesto.

Yeah, I agree. And it is yet another example that q15 can lead us astray.

AgeOfAquarius wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:43 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:27 am

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:19 am

True. However, the laws of man mean nothing when speaking of religion.

Sure but lying is not against the law typically. But lying is against God’s law. So either Wilfred Woodruff lied when he read the manifesto or else the two apostles abused the sealing power when they performed polygamous marriages after the manifesto was read.

I forget what thread it was- something about are marriages sealed... I believe that the actual sealing power (meaning: The Holy Order after The Order of The Son of God- also the Patriarchal Priesthood) was taken from the earth at the time of the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. It had already been Taken from the church-but not from Joseph - which is why they were commanded to build the Nauvoo Temple in the time frame the Lord gave ( see D&C 124) they did not finish the Temple, Joseph and Hyrum were martyred and "the saints fled into the wilderness" Brigham took over to control the church and yes, Wilford W. lied and the church abuses their so called priesthood.

Yes exactly. Logically, either something like this has to be true or else two apostles of God abused their sealing power but were not even formally disciplined for it, which I’m pretty sure the scriptures say is impossible.