LDS Freedom Forum

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 5:48 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 1:22 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:54 pm
Administration is for sealing ordinances. Ordinances prepare way for the reward this is individual progression not same as Elijah to make it rain or drought.


Btw which Nephi are you referring to claiming sealing power?

Where does it talk about this administration need for sealing ordinances specifically? I’m honestly unaware of it personally.

I'm not sure where to point you to? All the priesthood responsibilities in the D&C are administrative. Performing the ordinances, baptisms, bishop's duties, passing & blessing sacrament, appointing leaders, teachers, etc.... When you get right down to it, a bishop, who is responsible for running a ward, is Aaronic PH and is all administrative; all he does is manage the ward. now some responsibilities are as an HP such as judging, etc... those seem to roll through SP and HC as the MP leadership. But, then above the SP, everything is just admin... appointing 70's, leading meetings, giving talks, just running the church. Most don't even require PH but use it as a matter of policy. I mean do you need MP to teach EQ? Does a MP need to appoint a Primary teacher? I mean by authority? No, purely administrative policy.

So, my definition here is that when it comes to running the daily operations of the church, all that is needed is admin authority. Now to give a blessing, you need authority, etc.. but that is at the roots level. So, the PSR's have admin authority for the church. And within that authority they have the authority to assign sealers to perform sealings and the admin authority to build and staff and maintain the temples. the sealers have right to administer the ordinances (endowments, marriages, baptisms for the dead, washings, anointings, etc..)

Can you actually think of one thing the current q15 does that isn't just plain ole administrative business, that a rank and file HP or Elder cannot do in their limited scope of responsibility? I cannot.

Example would be judging MP holders. That is a SP responsibility with help from HC if needed, right? All the talk on the forum about PSR's getting involved is incorrect. Oh, don't get me wrong, they write the Holy Handbook and give secret advice, I'm sure, but the actual councils are held at the local level. Ever really heard of a 70 holding a council or exing any one or a PSR, well not since the days of early, except maybe for members of their own council. I mean I think only the PSR's can hold a council on a GA?? Not sure but I think so. But, I don't think they can for a rank-and-file member.

Hope this clarifies what I was saying. Oh but the actual power to seal up, like Elijah is beyond administering church affairs, that was my initial point.

Can you actually think of one thing the current q15 does that isn't just plain ole administrative business

Yes very easily. They bless or dedicate temples. That’s an actual in person dedication they do. They claim to offer apostolic blessings. Is that administrative? They claim to be actual personal witnesses of Christ…and then witness of his divinity. Again how is that purely administrative? They also officiate in temple sealings at times…again not administrative. You don’t need to be an administrator to do any of these things. They’re also *supposed* to personally preach the gospel as Paul did. This conversation is getting boring pretty quickly tbh.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 5:53 pm Where does it say early members are turned over to satan in D&C 5? Satan is not referenced in that section. I don't accept this statement and don't see a valid reference.

Also, I guess your speaking for yourself in the uses of "we" above? I'm not part of your "we".

Of course you don't believe a lie. Everything you believe is true, I forgot.

These verses were in the 1833 Book Of Commandments, but were removed in the 1835 Doctrine And Covenants.
In my view Joseph removed them either maliciously or because he knew the church was already turned over to Satan.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ts-1833/14

And thus, if the people of this generation harden not their hearts, I will work a reformation among them, and I will put down all lyings, and deceivings, and priestcrafts, and envyings, and strifes, and idolatries, and sorceries, and all manner of iniquities, and I will establish my church, like unto the church which was taught by my disciples in the days of old.

And now if this generation do harden their hearts against my word, behold I will deliver them up unto Satan, for he reigneth and hath much power at this time, for he hath got great hold upon the hearts of the people of this generation: and not far from the iniquities of Sodom and Gomorrah, do they come at this time: and behold the sword of justice hangeth over their heads, and if they persist in the hardness of their hearts, the time cometh that it must fall upon them.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 6:21 pm
Yes very easily. They bless or dedicate temples. That’s an actual in person dedication they do. They claim to offer apostolic blessings. Is that administrative? They claim to be actual personal witnesses of Christ…and then witness of his divinity. Again how is that purely administrative? They also officiate in temple sealings at times…again not administrative. You don’t need to be an administrator to do any of these things. They’re also *supposed* to personally preach the gospel as Paul did. This conversation is getting boring pretty quickly tbh.

Well seems all like they are administering to management duties to me. funding, building temples is admin for sure, dedicating them is an administrative privilege of sealing rights (can be done by anyone authorized by FP to my understanding), officiating surely is administering the actual ordinances.

I mean are the ordinances administered or not? the term is actually that? Like I said read Christofferson's talk, he mentions it clearly in the first part. It was linked here before a few days back. Take his word for how PSR's see it.

Yes BTW Paul administered to all the northern churches. Read his letters, all administering on how to run their churches from money to how to judge, etc...

Maybe I'm a bit confused with what is going on. but, as I see it Joseph restored the gospel and put in place a church organization (most of it) and from then on the PSR's have basically been trying to simply administer/manage it. That is keep it running, as smoothly as they can. They've added nothing really as far as doctrine or teachings since Joseph, at least not by "thus saith the Lord". Maybe clarified (or muddied things). but I see everything they do as just administering.

Lets see sacrament is "administered", ordinances are "administered".............. even RMN says all we do is "minister" which is part of "administering".. Not sure the confusion. but, I've made my point and don't see any need to continue unless you have a different specific question. If you don't accept that term, propose a new one?

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 6:57 pm Of course you don't believe a lie. Everything you believe is true, I forgot.

These verses were in the 1833 Book Of Commandments, but were removed in the 1835 Doctrine And Covenants.

And thus, if the people of this generation harden not their hearts, I will work a reformation among them, and I will put down all lyings, and deceivings, and priestcrafts, and envyings, and strifes, and idolatries, and sorceries, and all manner of iniquities, and I will establish my church, like unto the church which was taught by my disciples in the days of old.

And now if this generation do harden their hearts against my word, behold I will deliver them up unto Satan, for he reigneth and hath much power at this time, for he hath got great hold upon the hearts of the people of this generation: and not far from the iniquities of Sodom and Gomorrah, do they come at this time: and behold the sword of justice hangeth over their heads, and if they persist in the hardness of their hearts, the time cometh that it must fall upon them.

this is a very unfair and unethical personal attack "Of course you don't believe a lie. Everything you believe is true, I forgot." It is uncalled for

To be clear it was your comment above that said D&C 5.................. not BoC 5 or anything like that.

So to your words, I accept them but they don't say what you intimated at all. It is talking about an "entire generation". And that is ALWAYS true. If you hear Christ and ignore him, you have turned yourself over to listening to Satan. but it has nothing about PH let alone sealing. It is a warning to the entire earth!

What were you claiming this was saying?

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 7:02 pm this is a very unfair and unethical personal attack "Of course you don't believe a lie. Everything you believe is true, I forgot." It is uncalled for

To be clear it was your comment above that said D&C 5.................. not BoC 5 or anything like that.

So to your words, I accept them but they don't say what you intimated at all. It is talking about an "entire generation". And that is ALWAYS true. If you hear Christ and ignore him, you have turned yourself over to listening to Satan. but it has nothing about PH let alone sealing. It is a warning to the entire earth!

What were you claiming this was saying?

You are correct that I shouldn't have said you don't believe a lie. However, that is what you said when you opted out of the "we" category. I think we all believe lies, me included, since we were all born into idolatry and are clawing our way back to God. Everything we know about God is either wrong or incomplete. There is nothing final about our current beliefs.

You are correct I said D&C and I could have clarified better.

We all see what we want when we read the scriptures. However this is pretty clear to me. God is saying if this generation doesn't harden their hearts then he will establish his church. However if they do then he will turn them over to satan.

Your reading of the text doesn't make any sense. You are claiming that God will establish his church and then turn everyone else over to satan. Please justify that according to the text.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 7:11 pm You are correct that I shouldn't have said you don't believe a lie. However, that is what you said when you opted out of the "we" category. I think we all believe lies, me included, since we were all born into idolatry and are clawing our way back to God. Everything we know about God is either wrong or incomplete. There is nothing final about our current beliefs.

You are correct I said D&C and I could have clarified better.

We all see what we want when we read the scriptures. However this is pretty clear to me. God is saying if this generation doesn't harden their hearts then he will establish his church. However if they do then he will turn them over to satan.

Your reading of the text doesn't make any sense. You are claiming that God will establish his church and then turn everyone else over to satan. Please justify that according to the text.

No harm, no foul.

I'm not claiming anything at all. I was attempting to respond to your comments best I could but couldn't follow your logic. I haven't studied that section of BoC and have only this snippet. It doesn't matter to me at this time. All I am saying is this snippet says the usual that god always says. Here is truth take it and be blessed or ignore it and follow Satan.................. Pretty generic to me. I'm not reading anything in to it. I don't think it has anything to offer the OP here of sealing power or its misuse.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 6:58 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 6:21 pm
Yes very easily. They bless or dedicate temples. That’s an actual in person dedication they do. They claim to offer apostolic blessings. Is that administrative? They claim to be actual personal witnesses of Christ…and then witness of his divinity. Again how is that purely administrative? They also officiate in temple sealings at times…again not administrative. You don’t need to be an administrator to do any of these things. They’re also *supposed* to personally preach the gospel as Paul did. This conversation is getting boring pretty quickly tbh.

Well seems all like they are administering to management duties to me. funding, building temples is admin for sure, dedicating them is an administrative privilege of sealing rights (can be done by anyone authorized by FP to my understanding), officiating surely is administering the actual ordinances.

I mean are the ordinances administered or not? the term is actually that? Like I said read Christofferson's talk, he mentions it clearly in the first part. It was linked here before a few days back. Take his word for how PSR's see it.

Yes BTW Paul administered to all the northern churches. Read his letters, all administering on how to run their churches from money to how to judge, etc...

Maybe I'm a bit confused with what is going on. but, as I see it Joseph restored the gospel and put in place a church organization (most of it) and from then on the PSR's have basically been trying to simply administer/manage it. That is keep it running, as smoothly as they can. They've added nothing really as far as doctrine or teachings since Joseph, at least not by "thus saith the Lord". Maybe clarified (or muddied things). but I see everything they do as just administering.

Lets see sacrament is "administered", ordinances are "administered".............. even RMN says all we do is "minister" which is part of "administering".. Not sure the confusion. but, I've made my point and don't see any need to continue unless you have a different specific question. If you don't accept that term, propose a new one?

Your full statement was

Can you actually think of one thing the current q15 does that isn't just plain ole administrative business, that a rank and file HP or Elder cannot do in their limited scope of responsibility? I cannot.

An elder cannot offer an apostolic witness. He also can’t offer an apostolic blessing. Two things you didn’t mention in your response. It would be pretty atypical for one to dedicate a temple.

The apostles or 1st presidency also set apart other apostles to their respective offices and choose them. Can they assign an elder to also do this?

They also are supposed to preach the gospel along with the 70. A normal elder who does not fill one of these offices does not do this. But yes they also obviously administer.

“The first members of the seventy were ordained on February 28, 1835, when Joseph Smith began to call and ordain special missionaries to “prune the vineyard for the last time.” 1 That same month, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris assisted Joseph Smith in selecting Twelve Apostles, a priesthood quorum of twelve high priests who, like the Apostles in the New Testament, were commissioned to preach the gospel to all the world.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

I honestly wasn’t aware someone other than an apostle has blessed a temple, do you have an example of this?

But if you’re saying the apostles can assign anyone to do any duty they themselves do then what’s the point? How is their witness of Christ unique? How is their apostolic blessing unique? How is their sealing power or apostolic power unique?

Why do they spend money flying to dedicate temples when they could just assign a worthy elder or area authority who already lives in that area to do it themselves and save the expenditure of the tithing money?

Do you have an explanation for how two former apostles used their sealing power to seal or enter into polygamous marriages after the manifesto?

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 5:48 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 1:22 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:54 pm
Administration is for sealing ordinances. Ordinances prepare way for the reward this is individual progression not same as Elijah to make it rain or drought.


Btw which Nephi are you referring to claiming sealing power?

Where does it talk about this administration need for sealing ordinances specifically? I’m honestly unaware of it personally.

I'm not sure where to point you to? All the priesthood responsibilities in the D&C are administrative. Performing the ordinances, baptisms, bishop's duties, passing & blessing sacrament, appointing leaders, teachers, etc.... When you get right down to it, a bishop, who is responsible for running a ward, is Aaronic PH and is all administrative; all he does is manage the ward. now some responsibilities are as an HP such as judging, etc... those seem to roll through SP and HC as the MP leadership. But, then above the SP, everything is just admin... appointing 70's, leading meetings, giving talks, just running the church. Most don't even require PH but use it as a matter of policy. I mean do you need MP to teach EQ? Does a MP need to appoint a Primary teacher? I mean by authority? No, purely administrative policy.

So, my definition here is that when it comes to running the daily operations of the church, all that is needed is admin authority. Now to give a blessing, you need authority, etc.. but that is at the roots level. So, the PSR's have admin authority for the church. And within that authority they have the authority to assign sealers to perform sealings and the admin authority to build and staff and maintain the temples. the sealers have right to administer the ordinances (endowments, marriages, baptisms for the dead, washings, anointings, etc..)

Can you actually think of one thing the current q15 does that isn't just plain ole administrative business, that a rank and file HP or Elder cannot do in their limited scope of responsibility? I cannot.

Example would be judging MP holders. That is a SP responsibility with help from HC if needed, right? All the talk on the forum about PSR's getting involved is incorrect. Oh, don't get me wrong, they write the Holy Handbook and give secret advice, I'm sure, but the actual councils are held at the local level. Ever really heard of a 70 holding a council or exing any one or a PSR, well not since the days of early, except maybe for members of their own council. I mean I think only the PSR's can hold a council on a GA?? Not sure but I think so. But, I don't think they can for a rank-and-file member.

Hope this clarifies what I was saying. Oh but the actual power to seal up, like Elijah is beyond administering church affairs, that was my initial point.

You also state

Oh but the actual power to seal up, like Elijah is beyond administering church affairs, that was my initial point.

But the LDS church claims otherwise as was pointed out earlier already

“Because Elijah restored the sealing keys, we can be sealed together as families throughout eternity.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

Why did Elijah need to restore the keys if the current power to seal marriages is purely administrative and Elijah’s power was outside of church administrative affairs as you claim? And why are Elijah’s key directly tied to eternal marriage sealings by the LDS church?

You don’t believe this statement from the LDS church’s website is accurate?

By your definition everything the q15 do is administrative and could be done by an elder or HP. So then why did keys need to be restored by Elijah? Why are the q12 and 70 specifically called to peach the *gospel* in a missionary capacity to those *outside* the church dealing with people who aren’t baptized and therefore do not fall under church jurisdiction or administration?

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 8:07 pm
But the LDS church claims otherwise as was pointed out earlier already

“Because Elijah restored the sealing keys, we can be sealed together as families throughout eternity.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

Why did Elijah need to restore the keys if the current power to seal marriages is purely administrative and Elijah’s power was outside of church administrative affairs as you claim? And why are Elijah’s key directly tied to eternal marriage sealings by the LDS church?

You don’t believe this statement from the LDS church’s website is accurate?

By your definition everything the q15 do is administrative and could be done by an elder or HP. So then why did keys need to be restored by Elijah? Why are the q12 and 70 specifically called to peach the *gospel* in a missionary capacity to those *outside* the church dealing with people who aren’t baptized and therefore do not fall under church jurisdiction or administration?

Ok, lets sort some of these good questions out, if we can. Some are my opinion btw and I don't accept the LDS wording but as I have said, their current words seem pretty ok, but not perfect, if we discount the second anointing issue that I already mentioned.

So, to be clear we need to separate timelines. Elijah showed up, according to D&C and Joseph and gave all the keys of sealing powers to Joseph. As I said before, I personally feel the only way a person can have full sealing power is from the Lord, could be from him (unlikely except around his ministry) or an angel or such, perhaps the Holy Ghost himself. Anyway, I never disputed that Elijah gave Joseph the sealing power and authority and at one point Joseph had the fullness of the priesthood.

Many on FF will point out issues of potential or actual loss of the "fullness" of the PH. I see no reason to argue whether it was taken or just not given to another. When Joseph died the power to act as HSoP left the earth, like with Elijah. left only the rights/authority to perform the ordinances or as the scriptures say "administer the ordinances". I am unaware of it being restored. There was a quote from someone, perhaps Alexander a few months or more back where BY was asked about the fullness of the PH and made a statement to the effect that if it was on the earth at that time, he was unaware of it. Perhaps someone here would know where that quote can be found?

So, first, I accept LDS narrative of obtaining the sealing power as you asked. Second, I don't see a conflict with what is done today and cannot comment on second anointing as it isn't published what happens or what power is supposedly invoked. but for sealing ceremonies of endowment, marriage, et al, it is by a sealer appointed by head PSR that administers the ordinances or ceremonies.

Third to your point, I am unaware of any limits on Elijah's sealing powers. In his life we are only told of weather, but Joseph in D&C says other powers which include all temple ordinances. Interesting it was many years after Elijah came and gave the powers that they were exercised as we see today, at first it was just baptism for the dead, then some washings and anointings as I recall in Kirtland timeframe.

I never said that anything the PSRs do can be done by anyone else. Only they have the authority to administer the global scope of the church, the SPs within a stake, etc... However, I'm not going to determine how or what authority goes with what PH. I will say that the D&C gives all the authority to HPs and says the FP and SP and HC must be HPs not elders. It also says apostles only have authority outside of the stakes.......... I will also say that D&C says those in leadership councils may call replacements. There is informal areas as well, like apostles are above HPs (I don't accept) and presidencies are immediately dissolved when the president dies, and such. These are to me policy. The fact that when a prophet dies next in line takes over, is not in any canon, it is IMO just policy, put in place by BY and accepted. If the Lord decided to do it another way, he could just do so.

So, things got ugly, Joseph killed, apostles inactive, HCs and SPs out for various reasons (right or wrong) and eventually an accepted and sustained leadership via FP and new HC as apostles took over. From then on they administered the affairs of the church and made their own replacements. D&C says the head guy has sealing authority and can set up how the sealers administer ordinances. etc.... Why and what their assignments are also seems policy and isn't in alignment with D&C, but then neither are the tasks required to administer the global church either. things are not the same as in NY or OH or IL with two stakes, 0 to 1 temple, one chapel, etc... So, personally I give them leeway to simply "administer" the affairs as they like but often, like others, I do complain about their methods.

I hope that answers your questions?

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:29 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 8:07 pm
But the LDS church claims otherwise as was pointed out earlier already

“Because Elijah restored the sealing keys, we can be sealed together as families throughout eternity.”
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... d?lang=eng

Why did Elijah need to restore the keys if the current power to seal marriages is purely administrative and Elijah’s power was outside of church administrative affairs as you claim? And why are Elijah’s key directly tied to eternal marriage sealings by the LDS church?

You don’t believe this statement from the LDS church’s website is accurate?

By your definition everything the q15 do is administrative and could be done by an elder or HP. So then why did keys need to be restored by Elijah? Why are the q12 and 70 specifically called to peach the *gospel* in a missionary capacity to those *outside* the church dealing with people who aren’t baptized and therefore do not fall under church jurisdiction or administration?

Ok, lets sort some of these good questions out, if we can. Some are my opinion btw and I don't accept the LDS wording but as I have said, their current words seem pretty ok, but not perfect, if we discount the second anointing issue that I already mentioned.

So, to be clear we need to separate timelines. Elijah showed up, according to D&C and Joseph and gave all the keys of sealing powers to Joseph. As I said before, I personally feel the only way a person can have full sealing power is from the Lord, could be from him (unlikely except around his ministry) or an angel or such, perhaps the Holy Ghost himself. Anyway, I never disputed that Elijah gave Joseph the sealing power and authority and at one point Joseph had the fullness of the priesthood.

Many on FF will point out issues of potential or actual loss of the "fullness" of the PH. I see no reason to argue whether it was taken or just not given to another. When Joseph died the power to act as HSoP left the earth, like with Elijah. left only the rights/authority to perform the ordinances or as the scriptures say "administer the ordinances". I am unaware of it being restored. There was a quote from someone, perhaps Alexander a few months or more back where BY was asked about the fullness of the PH and made a statement to the effect that if it was on the earth at that time, he was unaware of it. Perhaps someone here would know where that quote can be found?

So, first, I accept LDS narrative of obtaining the sealing power as you asked. Second, I don't see a conflict with what is done today and cannot comment on second anointing as it isn't published what happens or what power is supposedly invoked. but for sealing ceremonies of endowment, marriage, et al, it is by a sealer appointed by head PSR that administers the ordinances or ceremonies.

Third to your point, I am unaware of any limits on Elijah's sealing powers. In his life we are only told of weather, but Joseph in D&C says other powers which include all temple ordinances. Interesting it was many years after Elijah came and gave the powers that they were exercised as we see today, at first it was just baptism for the dead, then some washings and anointings as I recall in Kirtland timeframe.

I never said that anything the PSRs do can be done by anyone else. Only they have the authority to administer the global scope of the church, the SPs within a stake, etc... However, I'm not going to determine how or what authority goes with what PH. I will say that the D&C gives all the authority to HPs and says the FP and SP and HC must be HPs not elders. It also says apostles only have authority outside of the stakes.......... I will also say that D&C says those in leadership councils may call replacements. There is informal areas as well, like apostles are above HPs (I don't accept) and presidencies are immediately dissolved when the president dies, and such. These are to me policy. The fact that when a prophet dies next in line takes over, is not in any canon, it is IMO just policy, put in place by BY and accepted. If the Lord decided to do it another way, he could just do so.

So, things got ugly, Joseph killed, apostles inactive, HCs and SPs out for various reasons (right or wrong) and eventually an accepted and sustained leadership via FP and new HC as apostles took over. From then on they administered the affairs of the church and made their own replacements. D&C says the head guy has sealing authority and can set up how the sealers administer ordinances. etc.... Why and what their assignments are also seems policy and isn't in alignment with D&C, but then neither are the tasks required to administer the global church either. things are not the same as in NY or OH or IL with two stakes, 0 to 1 temple, one chapel, etc... So, personally I give them leeway to simply "administer" the affairs as they like but often, like others, I do complain about their methods.

I hope that answers your questions?

I never said that anything the PSRs do can be done by anyone else

You do imply that there is not a single thing they do that an elder or HP couldn’t also do. I’ve quoted this 3x now. And by claiming you didn’t say this, you just lied on the record.

Can you actually think of one thing the current q15 does that isn't just plain ole administrative business, that a rank and file HP or Elder cannot do in their limited scope of responsibility? I cannot.

I’ve named several things they do that a rank and file HP can’t do and I’ve don’t it repeatedly now.

I’m not interested in having this conversation with you any longer. I don’t believe you’re an individual with integrity personally.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 11:04 pm
I never said that anything the PSRs do can be done by anyone else. Only they have the authority to administer the global scope of the church, the SPs within a stake, etc... However, I'm not going to determine how or what authority goes with what PH. I will say that the D&C gives all the authority to HPs and says the FP and SP and HC must be HPs not elders. It also says apostles only have authority outside of the stakes.......... I will also say that D&C says those in leadership councils may call replacements. There is informal areas as well, like apostles are above HPs (I don't accept) and presidencies are immediately dissolved when the president dies, and such. These are to me policy. The fact that when a prophet dies next in line takes over, is not in any canon, it is IMO just policy, put in place by BY and accepted. If the Lord decided to do it another way, he could just do so.

You do imply that there is not a single thing they do that an elder or HP couldn’t also do. I’ve quoted this 3x now. And by claiming you didn’t say this, you just lied on the record.

Can you actually think of one thing the current q15 does that isn't just plain ole administrative business, that a rank and file HP or Elder cannot do in their limited scope of responsibility? I cannot.

I’ve named several things they do that a rank and file HP can’t do and I’ve don’t it repeatedly now.

I’m not interested in having this conversation with you any longer. I don’t believe you’re an individual with integrity personally.
[/quote]

I clarified my statement above read it again. I tried to be more clear. There are global things that a member of the FP and Q12 do to administer to the global church due to their callings. It isn't about PH level or anything. I mean the FP, SP, bishop, 70 (called elder), FP is just an HP, according to D&C, and apostles have authority outside the stakes according to D&C. So, we have two issues here. 1) callings and 2) priesthood authority.

I stated that the D&C differs with what came out after BY. I stated that some callings have different authority, i.e. with in a stake, within a ward, globally. I don't see a 70 having any more PH than any other HP but has a calling or office or has been given administrative rights to lead an area or organization. I want to be clear on this as apparently I wasn't. So that man in a leadership position (regardless of PH level) has authority that others don't. I.e. access to bank books and accounts, and personnel records, the list goes on. But they are just HPs in PH authority with an assignment.

The question that is open is what is the actual authority of the apostles, not members of the Q12 but the PH level of apostle? Lets come back to that but stick with the membership in Q12 and in FP. I say this because being a member of the Q12 is same as overall HC of the church and has global authority over matters, due to position. Also, the right to call and sustain others to replace themselves (see D&C multiple places). So, they have church (or the Lord if you wish) authority that others don't. All Q12 and FP members are HP's. The members of the FP and Q12 are given the authority to perform sealing ordinances (sealing power if you like that term, I don't, but as long as we know what we're discussing the terms become irrelevant). Only one may exercise it, the others may not, together they pass it on, and so on.

You can be presiding bishop (as I understand) if you are from Aaron's seed and not even be ordained any PH level. but whoever is in the presiding bishopric has access to many things and permission and authority to exercise it across the globe. You can be RS president with authority and have no PH level. So, don't say that I am saying all in the church have the same authority to administer things. I'm not saying that.

All this seems pretty clear. The only real issue that seems worthy of discussion further is what is an apostle? For that matter what is a PSR? D&C describes an apostle, no where is PSR authority defined in canon to my knowledge (maybe holy handbook?) So, what does it mean? Well for this thread about sealing powers, it means what I stated above. Those who are ordained apostles claim to have HP powers plus global admin rights and also right to administer sealing ordinances (one at a time), and to ordain others as the quorum dies off. In the past not all FP was apostles, only HP's now due to policy they are ordained apostles first, but as recently as McKay this wasn't policy. So, that is the claim and the claim is that the Q12 is standing HC. so they have some global authority built in.

So, I accept these men (PSRs) have more administrative rights than me in the church, as does my SP and bishop, and even my EQ president. But that is not priesthood authority or level. I personally do not accept that an apostle has more latent authority than an HP by PH level. I just don't I accept them as HP's with calling of apostle and position of global authority and the sealing authority as described above. As PH holders their highest level is HP according to D&C. Again not to be confused with calling and rights and now assumed level of apostle with reallocation of authority which I say is policy after McKay.

That said I have as much PH authority as RMN. but I have only a calling as a father and a husband. Within my family I have as much or really more rights than anyone on this earth. That is what I'm saying. I am saying this is true of all HPs and I would go to bat for elders but it isn't my battle or place to pray on that. For me I am working on and have received PH authority to seal up my family. What does that mean specifically? I accept the PSRs assigned a sealer to seal me to my wife(s). My children were born under the covenant. It is my role and responsibility to work with god to get my family in a place where I can obtain the power to have family sealed up, at least my partner (children are more complex so we'll stick with marriage). to call, mandate, demand god fulfill his covenants and bring the HSoP to seal me to my wife.

So, in the end it is the church leaders role to administer the ordinances of salvation and exaltation as I am worthy and ready (I as in family). It is my role to obtain the ordinances and necessary priesthoods. Obtain both priesthoods per D&C comments posted by another yesterday and I have exaltation. It is the HSoP that does the sealing on behalf of the father (and perhaps the son?) Best I can survey the only HSoP available is the HG, some will argue Christ can do it, I will not banter that question as it is immaterial to this discussion and this thread.

Does this help? NO I DID NOT LIE! Either you didn't understand or just want a fight or I was unclear, whatever. But I think it is very disingenuous for you to call me a liar, when I already explained these things before, clear or not. And you asked 3 times and I answered now 4 times. If you truly cannot separate the concepts of PH levels, PH authority, PH power, and administrative offices and scopes and roles. Then I cannot make the case any more clear. I would suggest reading the D&C from end to end for every section that has the key words priesthood, office, authority, or rights.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 15th, 2023, 12:17 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 11:04 pm
I never said that anything the PSRs do can be done by anyone else. Only they have the authority to administer the global scope of the church, the SPs within a stake, etc... However, I'm not going to determine how or what authority goes with what PH. I will say that the D&C gives all the authority to HPs and says the FP and SP and HC must be HPs not elders. It also says apostles only have authority outside of the stakes.......... I will also say that D&C says those in leadership councils may call replacements. There is informal areas as well, like apostles are above HPs (I don't accept) and presidencies are immediately dissolved when the president dies, and such. These are to me policy. The fact that when a prophet dies next in line takes over, is not in any canon, it is IMO just policy, put in place by BY and accepted. If the Lord decided to do it another way, he could just do so.

You do imply that there is not a single thing they do that an elder or HP couldn’t also do. I’ve quoted this 3x now. And by claiming you didn’t say this, you just lied on the record.

Can you actually think of one thing the current q15 does that isn't just plain ole administrative business, that a rank and file HP or Elder cannot do in their limited scope of responsibility? I cannot.

I’ve named several things they do that a rank and file HP can’t do and I’ve don’t it repeatedly now.

I’m not interested in having this conversation with you any longer. I don’t believe you’re an individual with integrity personally.

I clarified my statement above read it again. I tried to be more clear. There are global things that a member of the FP and Q12 do to administer to the global church due to their callings. It isn't about PH level or anything. I mean the FP, SP, bishop, 70 (called elder), FP is just an HP, according to D&C, and apostles have authority outside the stakes according to D&C. So, we have two issues here. 1) callings and 2) priesthood authority.

I stated that the D&C differs with what came out after BY. I stated that some callings have different authority, i.e. with in a stake, within a ward, globally. I don't see a 70 having any more PH than any other HP but has a calling or office or has been given administrative rights to lead an area or organization. I want to be clear on this as apparently I wasn't. So that man in a leadership position (regardless of PH level) has authority that others don't. I.e. access to bank books and accounts, and personnel records, the list goes on. But they are just HPs in PH authority with an assignment.

The question that is open is what is the actual authority of the apostles, not members of the Q12 but the PH level of apostle? Lets come back to that but stick with the membership in Q12 and in FP. I say this because being a member of the Q12 is same as overall HC of the church and has global authority over matters, due to position. Also, the right to call and sustain others to replace themselves (see D&C multiple places). So, they have church (or the Lord if you wish) authority that others don't. All Q12 and FP members are HP's. The members of the FP and Q12 are given the authority to perform sealing ordinances (sealing power if you like that term, I don't, but as long as we know what we're discussing the terms become irrelevant). Only one may exercise it, the others may not, together they pass it on, and so on.

You can be presiding bishop (as I understand) if you are from Aaron's seed and not even be ordained any PH level. but whoever is in the presiding bishopric has access to many things and permission and authority to exercise it across the globe. You can be RS president with authority and have no PH level. So, don't say that I am saying all in the church have the same authority to administer things. I'm not saying that.

All this seems pretty clear. The only real issue that seems worthy of discussion further is what is an apostle? For that matter what is a PSR? D&C describes an apostle, no where is PSR authority defined in canon to my knowledge (maybe holy handbook?) So, what does it mean? Well for this thread about sealing powers, it means what I stated above. Those who are ordained apostles claim to have HP powers plus global admin rights and also right to administer sealing ordinances (one at a time), and to ordain others as the quorum dies off. In the past not all FP was apostles, only HP's now due to policy they are ordained apostles first, but as recently as McKay this wasn't policy. So, that is the claim and the claim is that the Q12 is standing HC. so they have some global authority built in.

So, I accept these men (PSRs) have more administrative rights than me in the church, as does my SP and bishop, and even my EQ president. But that is not priesthood authority or level. I personally do not accept that an apostle has more latent authority than an HP by PH level. I just don't I accept them as HP's with calling of apostle and position of global authority and the sealing authority as described above. As PH holders their highest level is HP according to D&C. Again not to be confused with calling and rights and now assumed level of apostle with reallocation of authority which I say is policy after McKay.

That said I have as much PH authority as RMN. but I have only a calling as a father and a husband. Within my family I have as much or really more rights than anyone on this earth. That is what I'm saying. I am saying this is true of all HPs and I would go to bat for elders but it isn't my battle or place to pray on that. For me I am working on and have received PH authority to seal up my family. What does that mean specifically? I accept the PSRs assigned a sealer to seal me to my wife(s). My children were born under the covenant. It is my role and responsibility to work with god to get my family in a place where I can obtain the power to have family sealed up, at least my partner (children are more complex so we'll stick with marriage). to call, mandate, demand god fulfill his covenants and bring the HSoP to seal me to my wife.

So, in the end it is the church leaders role to administer the ordinances of salvation and exaltation as I am worthy and ready (I as in family). It is my role to obtain the ordinances and necessary priesthoods. Obtain both priesthoods per D&C comments posted by another yesterday and I have exaltation. It is the HSoP that does the sealing on behalf of the father (and perhaps the son?) Best I can survey the only HSoP available is the HG, some will argue Christ can do it, I will not banter that question as it is immaterial to this discussion and this thread.

Does this help? NO I DID NOT LIE! Either you didn't understand or just want a fight or I was unclear, whatever. But I think it is very disingenuous for you to call me a liar, when I already explained these things before, clear or not. And you asked 3 times and I answered now 4 times. If you truly cannot separate the concepts of PH levels, PH authority, PH power, and administrative offices and scopes and roles. Then I cannot make the case any more clear. I would suggest reading the D&C from end to end for every section that has the key words priesthood, office, authority, or rights.

Please stop interacting with me.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 2:49 pm But at least two prior Mormon Apostles used their sealing power to enter into or perform polygamous marriage sealing after the 1890 Manifesto officially prohibiting them and then resigned their offices due to this. These two men were Matthias Cowley and John W. Taylor (the son of past lds president John Taylor).

Far more than these two sealed plural marriages after the 1890 Manifesto. They got their notoriety because their actions continued after Joseph F. Smith issued the Second Manifesto in 1904.
But from 1890-1904 most general authorities continued with plural marriage sealing. Many of them took more wives themselves.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:54 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:47 pm My conclusion so far is that since no one has directly logically refuted how it’s possible the two apostles misused the sealing power then I don’t see how it’s logical or reasonable to believe the lds church has the same sealing power as Nephi in the Book of Mormon.

If the power is purely administrative this still doesn’t make sense imo because

a) I personally don’t know anything in scripture talking about having administrative power over the sealing power and performing ordinances requires power by definition imo or else the ordinances are *powerless?*

b) if the sealing power is the highest power man can hold, how can one have administrative power OVER the highest power?

Administration is for sealing ordinances. Ordinances prepare way for the reward this is individual progression not same as Elijah to make it rain or drought.


Btw which Nephi are you referring to claiming sealing power?

Of course, they are similar and related. They correspond and are different portions of the same principle.