LDS Freedom Forum

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:44 am

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:08 am
The only person's will that is considered relevant is the will of each individual in the marriage. When is God consulted by the sealer? When did His revelation come for each individual marriage? Does the sealer only need to know the couple's choice, and that equals God's will? I don't think sealing power is that simple.

If you read the words of the marriage covenants and ceremony. It is extremely clear. At least the pre-1990 one I found on line and has been posted on this forum recently. It is very, very clear that the sealer has only the authority to perform the ordinance and all blessing ascertaining to this ..... are from faithfulness and the Lord agreeing. To be clear, it is obvious that very few (or at least a minority) of temple marriages will be sealed by the HSoP. to be so both must want it so badly as to give themselves forever to their partner. bot must be worthy of the highest level of celestial "now" in this eternal round. And god must approve, i.e. he knows they are eternally compatible.

this might make many feel like it isn't too valuable then. But given eternal progression, it is truly remarkable, and may require a few tries in mortality to get the right pair. I mean most on forum are on second or third partnership as well, even those with temple marriages, sorry to say. in this one mortality alone.

again the NEED god put on the earth is not the "sealing power" per se but the "authority to perform the sealing ordinances". This was held back to this dispensation and has been looked forward to, according to the Lord, since the foundations (premortal council) of this world! To take it lightly is a very big mistake, but only if you're one of those ready in this eternal round to capture the highest level of celestial, few are, which is why so few even accept the concepts of exaltation.... just not ready. But one day they will be!

AgeOfAquarius wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:43 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:27 am

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:19 am

True. However, the laws of man mean nothing when speaking of religion.

Sure but lying is not against the law typically. But lying is against God’s law. So either Wilfred Woodruff lied when he read the manifesto or else the two apostles abused the sealing power when they performed polygamous marriages after the manifesto was read.

I forget what thread it was- something about are marriages sealed... I believe that the actual sealing power (meaning: The Holy Order after The Order of The Son of God- also the Patriarchal Priesthood) was taken from the earth at the time of the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. It had already been Taken from the church-but not from Joseph - which is why they were commanded to build the Nauvoo Temple in the time frame the Lord gave ( see D&C 124) they did not finish the Temple, Joseph and Hyrum were martyred and "the saints fled into the wilderness" Brigham took over to control the church and yes, Wilford W. lied and the church abuses their so called priesthood.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:51 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:44 am

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:08 am
The only person's will that is considered relevant is the will of each individual in the marriage. When is God consulted by the sealer? When did His revelation come for each individual marriage? Does the sealer only need to know the couple's choice, and that equals God's will? I don't think sealing power is that simple.

If you read the words of the marriage covenants and ceremony. It is extremely clear. At least the pre-1990 one I found on line and has been posted on this forum recently. It is very, very clear that the sealer has only the authority to perform the ordinance and all blessing ascertaining to this ..... are from faithfulness and the Lord agreeing. To be clear, it is obvious that very few (or at least a minority) of temple marriages will be sealed by the HSoP. to be so both must want it so badly as to give themselves forever to their partner. bot must be worthy of the highest level of celestial "now" in this eternal round. And god must approve, i.e. he knows they are eternally compatible.

this might make many feel like it isn't too valuable then. But given eternal progression, it is truly remarkable, and may require a few tries in mortality to get the right pair. I mean most on forum are on second or third partnership as well, even those with temple marriages, sorry to say. in this one mortality alone.

again the NEED god put on the earth is not the "sealing power" per se but the "authority to perform the sealing ordinances". This was held back to this dispensation and has been looked forward to, according to the Lord, since the foundations (premortal council) of this world! To take it lightly is a very big mistake, but only if you're one of those ready in this eternal round to capture the highest level of celestial, few are, which is why so few even accept the concepts of exaltation.... just not ready. But one day they will be!

From the church's website:
Latter-day Saints believe that God has restored to the earth the power given to the ancient Apostle Peter to bind, or seal, on earth and in heaven. This sealing power is exercised in temples to solemnize marriages and to seal together families across generations. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

The church teaches and believes that this is the sealing power, the same that Peter held, not just authority to perform ordinances.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:51 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:44 am

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:08 am
The only person's will that is considered relevant is the will of each individual in the marriage. When is God consulted by the sealer? When did His revelation come for each individual marriage? Does the sealer only need to know the couple's choice, and that equals God's will? I don't think sealing power is that simple.

If you read the words of the marriage covenants and ceremony. It is extremely clear. At least the pre-1990 one I found on line and has been posted on this forum recently. It is very, very clear that the sealer has only the authority to perform the ordinance and all blessing ascertaining to this ..... are from faithfulness and the Lord agreeing. To be clear, it is obvious that very few (or at least a minority) of temple marriages will be sealed by the HSoP. to be so both must want it so badly as to give themselves forever to their partner. bot must be worthy of the highest level of celestial "now" in this eternal round. And god must approve, i.e. he knows they are eternally compatible.

this might make many feel like it isn't too valuable then. But given eternal progression, it is truly remarkable, and may require a few tries in mortality to get the right pair. I mean most on forum are on second or third partnership as well, even those with temple marriages, sorry to say. in this one mortality alone.

again the NEED god put on the earth is not the "sealing power" per se but the "authority to perform the sealing ordinances". This was held back to this dispensation and has been looked forward to, according to the Lord, since the foundations (premortal council) of this world! To take it lightly is a very big mistake, but only if you're one of those ready in this eternal round to capture the highest level of celestial, few are, which is why so few even accept the concepts of exaltation.... just not ready. But one day they will be!

From the church's website:
Latter-day Saints believe that God has restored to the earth the power given to the ancient Apostle Peter to bind, or seal, on earth and in heaven. This sealing power is exercised in temples to solemnize marriages and to seal together families across generations. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... g?lang=eng

The church teaches and believes that this is the sealing power, the same that Peter held, not just authority to perform ordinances.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:55 am BTW the Lord knew the beginning from the end, so anyone that thinks that a handful of poor people in 1840 to 1844 could have thwarted his designs is pretty foolish, yet many on here say things were taken that were planned to be given ............ utter BS, god's plans are never put aside by man or Satan.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 11:02 am excellent. show me where Peter was given the true sealing power? Any verse in NT would be greatly appreciated. I have never been told he had it. I'm not saying he didn't but it is not captured that he did. Again Peter never performed any sealing ordinances, well depends on terminology again. If you mean sealing like exaltation/endowment/marriages. Peter didn't. If you mean sealing like baptism and C&E, Peter talked of that. But said clearly that only the Comforter could perform the sealing (read about his discussion of C&E).

I said clearly there is no evidence, ever in any scripture anywhere, that the true power to bind on earth for heaven has ever been given but directly by the Lord! Authority to administer, well that happened all the time and in every dispensation. Like I said there is no LDS claim to sealing power for baptism, endowment or marriage but by HSoP or HG or comforter. Read LDS. org on this this. Ignore some GA's private comments they are all over the place. but I pointed to Christofferson's claim and his definition this year is only administrative for ordinances.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 11:07 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 10:55 am BTW the Lord knew the beginning from the end, so anyone that thinks that a handful of poor people in 1840 to 1844 could have thwarted his designs is pretty foolish, yet many on here say things were taken that were planned to be given ............ utter BS, god's plans are never put aside by man or Satan.

No one is claiming this. However it is fundamentally an unfalsifiable statement.
God wants certain things however he lets humans make choices to see if they are onboard with his plan. He of course knows what they are going to choose. That however doesn't mean that he didn't want the best outcome and instead wanted what the humans chose instead. It is purely circular logic the way you described things.

"There is even now already in store sufficient, yea, even an abundance, to redeem Zion, and establish her waste places, no more to be thrown down, were the churches, who call themselves after my name, willing to hearken to my voice."
D&C 101:75

God wanted Zion redeemed however the members of the church didn't. He is not going to force people to do anything. God wants the second coming today; however he knows we are not ready. If Christ showed up today, then we would all die in his presence.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 11:11 am
This logic is so silly. You are assuming that you, who have likely done almost nothing in comparison to Peter, holds more power and authority in God's kingdom than he does. Peter walked on water and healed people with his shadow, yet you are better in God's sight because you are a member of a certain church and just show up.

This is the problem with the LDS church. We assume that some old male, who only shows up to church, holds all the power and authority that God has to give. You have to do almost nothing spiritually. This is more than all the previous amazing people in the scriptures held. People had to struggle and have real faith. Today we just have to sit in a meeting once a week and we are golden.

I frankly don't believe it and I think it is a doctrine of the devil.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 11:28 am As far as you being prejudice again old white males, join the crowd, be woke, get on with it. God put the PH in the hands of white males from Adam, to Enoch, to Moses, to Jesus to Joseph. Not because they were white, perhaps because they were male, but because they were chosen. If their race or age bothers you, find another god.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 11:36 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 11:28 am As far as you being prejudice again old white males, join the crowd, be woke, get on with it. God put the PH in the hands of white males from Adam, to Enoch, to Moses, to Jesus to Joseph. Not because they were white, perhaps because they were male, but because they were chosen. If their race or age bothers you, find another god.

I never said anything about skin color. However, it seems that is a touchy subject for you. If you look at history though, not a single person in your list was white.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 11:39 am my mistake, I just reread you said "old males" I had mistakenly read "old white males".

Not true all were white, i.e. non-were black, but BoM says they were white.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:47 pm My conclusion so far is that since no one has directly logically refuted how it’s possible the two apostles misused the sealing power then I don’t see how it’s logical or reasonable to believe the lds church has the same sealing power as Nephi in the Book of Mormon.

If the power is purely administrative this still doesn’t make sense imo because

a) I personally don’t know anything in scripture talking about having administrative power over the sealing power and performing ordinances requires power by definition imo or else the ordinances are *powerless?*

b) if the sealing power is the highest power man can hold, how can one have administrative power OVER the highest power?

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:54 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:47 pm My conclusion so far is that since no one has directly logically refuted how it’s possible the two apostles misused the sealing power then I don’t see how it’s logical or reasonable to believe the lds church has the same sealing power as Nephi in the Book of Mormon.

If the power is purely administrative this still doesn’t make sense imo because

a) I personally don’t know anything in scripture talking about having administrative power over the sealing power and performing ordinances requires power by definition imo or else the ordinances are *powerless?*

b) if the sealing power is the highest power man can hold, how can one have administrative power OVER the highest power?

Administration is for sealing ordinances. Ordinances prepare way for the reward this is individual progression not same as Elijah to make it rain or drought.


Btw which Nephi are you referring to claiming sealing power?

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:54 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:47 pm My conclusion so far is that since no one has directly logically refuted how it’s possible the two apostles misused the sealing power then I don’t see how it’s logical or reasonable to believe the lds church has the same sealing power as Nephi in the Book of Mormon.

If the power is purely administrative this still doesn’t make sense imo because

a) I personally don’t know anything in scripture talking about having administrative power over the sealing power and performing ordinances requires power by definition imo or else the ordinances are *powerless?*

b) if the sealing power is the highest power man can hold, how can one have administrative power OVER the highest power?

Administration is for sealing ordinances. Ordinances prepare way for the reward this is individual progression not same as Elijah to make it rain or drought.


Btw which Nephi are you referring to claiming sealing power?

Btw which Nephi are you referring to claiming sealing power?

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:47 pm My conclusion so far is that since no one has directly logically refuted how it’s possible the two apostles misused the sealing power then I don’t see how it’s logical or reasonable to believe the lds church has the same sealing power as Nephi in the Book of Mormon.

If the power is purely administrative this still doesn’t make sense imo because

a) I personally don’t know anything in scripture talking about having administrative power over the sealing power and performing ordinances requires power by definition imo or else the ordinances are *powerless?*

b) if the sealing power is the highest power man can hold, how can one have administrative power OVER the highest power?

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 1:43 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:47 pm My conclusion so far is that since no one has directly logically refuted how it’s possible the two apostles misused the sealing power then I don’t see how it’s logical or reasonable to believe the lds church has the same sealing power as Nephi in the Book of Mormon.

If the power is purely administrative this still doesn’t make sense imo because

a) I personally don’t know anything in scripture talking about having administrative power over the sealing power and performing ordinances requires power by definition imo or else the ordinances are *powerless?*

b) if the sealing power is the highest power man can hold, how can one have administrative power OVER the highest power?

It doesn't make sense because it is not true. The early members were turned over to satan (D&C 5), exactly as God said, and we have believed a lie. (2 Thes 2:11)
We want people to rule over us and don't care for the truth (Jer 5:31)

Today we think that just because Joseph said, or supposedly said something, then it is automatically true. This is nonsense. We must evaluate everything independently.

Even if a prophet, who does miracles, starts teaching false doctrines then we are to reject it entirely. (Deut 13)

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 2:08 pm They obviously don’t have it.
And they’ve taught in the not-so-distant past that you need the Holy Spirit of Promise to ratify the ordinance.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 1:22 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:54 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:47 pm My conclusion so far is that since no one has directly logically refuted how it’s possible the two apostles misused the sealing power then I don’t see how it’s logical or reasonable to believe the lds church has the same sealing power as Nephi in the Book of Mormon.

If the power is purely administrative this still doesn’t make sense imo because

a) I personally don’t know anything in scripture talking about having administrative power over the sealing power and performing ordinances requires power by definition imo or else the ordinances are *powerless?*

b) if the sealing power is the highest power man can hold, how can one have administrative power OVER the highest power?

Administration is for sealing ordinances. Ordinances prepare way for the reward this is individual progression not same as Elijah to make it rain or drought.


Btw which Nephi are you referring to claiming sealing power?

Where does it talk about this administration need for sealing ordinances specifically? I’m honestly unaware of it personally.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 1:43 pm It doesn't make sense because it is not true. The early members were turned over to satan (D&C 5), exactly as God said, and we have believed a lie. (2 Thes 2:11)
We want people to rule over us and don't care for the truth (Jer 5:31)

Today we think that just because Joseph said, or supposedly said something, then it is automatically true. This is nonsense. We must evaluate everything independently.

Even if a prophet, who does miracles, starts teaching false doctrines then we are to reject it entirely. (Deut 13)

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 2:49 pm Talking about the sealing power in another discussion thread the idea was brought up that all members of the q15 hold the sealing power. Initially I understood the reasoning for this view because it was said that the office of apostle holds the sealing power as part of that office (which I had never heard before, but a scripture from the New testament was cited), and since Joseph held the power once he called apostles or sanctioned others to call them, they also had the sealing power therefore. But now I don’t see exactly how this is possible given what the book of mormon says about the power?

God will only give this power to an individual who will not ask contrary to God’s will if the book of mormon is correct. This section of Helaman is talking about the conditions Nephi met in order to receive this power.

Helaman
“yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will.…. Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”

But at least two prior Mormon Apostles used their sealing power to enter into or perform polygamous marriage sealing after the 1890 Manifesto officially prohibiting them and then resigned their offices due to this. These two men were Matthias Cowley and John W. Taylor (the son of past lds president John Taylor).

“Taylor was a staunch believer in the doctrine of plural marriage, and had six wives and 36 children. Although the church officially forbade new plural marriages with the 1890 Manifesto, Taylor continued to privately marry additional wives. Under pressure, he submitted his resignation from the Quorum of the Twelve on October 28, 1905.[3] Matthias F. Cowley also resigned from the Quorum at the same time over the plural marriage dispute.[3] The following February, Marriner W. Merrill died. In the April general conference of 1906, the resignations of Cowley and Taylor were presented to and accepted by the general church membership.[3] As a result, three new apostles were called to replace them and Merrill: George F. Richards, Orson F. Whitney, and David O. McKay.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Taylor_(Mormon)

“Cowley was notorious for having performed marriages that contravened the church's 1890 Manifesto...”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthias_F._Cowley#Notes

And because there is no longer a patriarch of the church apparently, the only two quorums who hold this alleged power are the Q12 and 1st presidency who effectively act as a single quorum these days imo, yet the Q12 has misused this power in the past according to history.

I guess my question is, how was this power allowed to be seemingly misused given what the book of mormon says about it? It seems to me that either they don’t hold the power and it’s just show or else the power is basically being “franchised” and was abused by two former LDS apostles, which I can’t account for how that is even possible in scripture. Am I missing something?

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 5:53 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 1:43 pm It doesn't make sense because it is not true. The early members were turned over to satan (D&C 5), exactly as God said, and we have believed a lie. (2 Thes 2:11)
We want people to rule over us and don't care for the truth (Jer 5:31)

Today we think that just because Joseph said, or supposedly said something, then it is automatically true. This is nonsense. We must evaluate everything independently.

Even if a prophet, who does miracles, starts teaching false doctrines then we are to reject it entirely. (Deut 13)

Where does it say early members are turned over to satan in D&C 5? Satan is not referenced in that section. I don't accept this statement and don't see a valid reference.

Also, I guess your speaking for yourself in the uses of "we" above? I'm not part of your "we".

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 5:48 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 1:22 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:54 pm
Administration is for sealing ordinances. Ordinances prepare way for the reward this is individual progression not same as Elijah to make it rain or drought.


Btw which Nephi are you referring to claiming sealing power?

Where does it talk about this administration need for sealing ordinances specifically? I’m honestly unaware of it personally.

I'm not sure where to point you to? All the priesthood responsibilities in the D&C are administrative. Performing the ordinances, baptisms, bishop's duties, passing & blessing sacrament, appointing leaders, teachers, etc.... When you get right down to it, a bishop, who is responsible for running a ward, is Aaronic PH and is all administrative; all he does is manage the ward. now some responsibilities are as an HP such as judging, etc... those seem to roll through SP and HC as the MP leadership. But, then above the SP, everything is just admin... appointing 70's, leading meetings, giving talks, just running the church. Most don't even require PH but use it as a matter of policy. I mean do you need MP to teach EQ? Does a MP need to appoint a Primary teacher? I mean by authority? No, purely administrative policy.

So, my definition here is that when it comes to running the daily operations of the church, all that is needed is admin authority. Now to give a blessing, you need authority, etc.. but that is at the roots level. So, the PSR's have admin authority for the church. And within that authority they have the authority to assign sealers to perform sealings and the admin authority to build and staff and maintain the temples. the sealers have right to administer the ordinances (endowments, marriages, baptisms for the dead, washings, anointings, etc..)

Can you actually think of one thing the current q15 does that isn't just plain ole administrative business, that a rank and file HP or Elder cannot do in their limited scope of responsibility? I cannot.

Example would be judging MP holders. That is a SP responsibility with help from HC if needed, right? All the talk on the forum about PSR's getting involved is incorrect. Oh, don't get me wrong, they write the Holy Handbook and give secret advice, I'm sure, but the actual councils are held at the local level. Ever really heard of a 70 holding a council or exing any one or a PSR, well not since the days of early, except maybe for members of their own council. I mean I think only the PSR's can hold a council on a GA?? Not sure but I think so. But, I don't think they can for a rank-and-file member.

Hope this clarifies what I was saying. Oh but the actual power to seal up, like Elijah is beyond administering church affairs, that was my initial point.

ransomme wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 6:03 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 5:53 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 1:43 pm It doesn't make sense because it is not true. The early members were turned over to satan (D&C 5), exactly as God said, and we have believed a lie. (2 Thes 2:11)
We want people to rule over us and don't care for the truth (Jer 5:31)

Today we think that just because Joseph said, or supposedly said something, then it is automatically true. This is nonsense. We must evaluate everything independently.

Even if a prophet, who does miracles, starts teaching false doctrines then we are to reject it entirely. (Deut 13)

Where does it say early members are turned over to satan in D&C 5? Satan is not referenced in that section. I don't accept this statement and don't see a valid reference.

Also, I guess your speaking for yourself in the uses of "we" above? I'm not part of your "we".

D&C 104?

8 Therefore, inasmuch as you are found transgressors, you cannot escape my wrath in your lives.
9 Inasmuch as ye are cut off for transgression, ye cannot escape the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption.
10 And I now give unto you power from this very hour, that if any man among you, of the order, is found a transgressor and repenteth not of the evil, that ye shall deliver him over unto the buffetings of Satan; and he shall not have power to bring evil upon you.