LDS Freedom Forum

What does healthy fear of God mean?

People use that term, but are we actually helpful in our fear of God?

Proverbs states :10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Then the writer expounds a bit and says 11For through wisdom your days will be multiplied, and years will be added to your life. 12If you are wise, you are wise to your own advantage; but if you scoff, you alone will bear the consequences. It reminds me of a scripture - but we preach Christ crucified a stumbling block to the jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. (1 cor)

So fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom- another word for fear is reverence or awe. But JT couldn't it really be like being afraid of God? Well I'm glad you asked. God has stated He is Holy (see multiple old and new testament passages) Holy means set apart- different. Different from what you might ask? Other gods who others worship. What is it that these gods always require? What are they? They are capricious gods- seeking control and abusing mankind. They wanted mankind to be in terror and bend to their will, people lived in constant fear of offending their God. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is different. He has rules, but he doesn't needlessly seek the destruction of His people. He wants His people to join Him on the mountain, but becaues they don't understand the awesomeness of God they fear Him (terror) even though His invitation is always "come unto me." Those rules which are consequences happen when His people ignore Him. Life and death is in the power of the tongue. The law of Sin and deaeth - sn leads to death, you reap what you sow - if you sow wickedness you reap wickedness. We will get back to this in a moment.

In the New Testament we learn in James that if ANY lacks wisdom, they can ask of God - Have you asked for wisdom from God? Or have you just tried to ask for "fear" as in I need to be afraid of God and act a certain way thinking it is how you are supposed to act because others told you?

We learn later in the New Testament that : 1 John 4: 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. Fear in this instance means 2 things : 1) withdrawing from the Lord and 2) terror.

How do we know this- John talks about boldness. So we learn we aren't supposed to be afraid of God, but rather we learn to love Him because of His awesomeness. IT goes back to Jonah and the City of Ninevah. The people didn't follow GOd, but they had heard about Him. They heard HE was merciful- so they repented - even though Jonah wanted them to be destroyed. The fear of the Lord here wasn't fear of destruction it was teh understanding of who God was that saved them rather than fear. IT is a microcosm if the gospel - we are already condemned because we have all sinned. God sends His Son to save us if we believe. The Ninevites believed and were saved regardless of the destruction that was promised.

So a true healthy fear is living in complete love with and awe and reverence towards the mercy of God towards us. IT is rejoicing and living a worshipful life regarding ourselves of worth beacuse He says we are of worth and for Him giving His life for us. It is living in awe that HE continually sees more in us than we see in ourselves. It is Him showing us that it is faith that saves. He does not command we run away from Him, but if we mess up we run towards Him. He declares we are reconciled to Him (see Romans) He declares that we are His beloved. What He requires s that we believe Him- that His power is greater than our own sight, that though we think we can't change, He still gives us a new heart. That He gives us His Spirit and says "ye are gods."

So true healthy fear of God for a believer is receiving hte love of God and letting it transform you into His image. This Spirit is life- it will increase your days. This Life is through the blood of Jesus. It is understanding you are and can be all that you are only through Jesus Christ who gave His life so you can have relationship with the Father and no longer see yourselves as filthy and unclean, but righteous and pure a virgin before the LOrd. He separates our sin from us as far as teh east is from the west. HE buries it in the depths of hte sea.

So if you as a believer are in a constant state or even a state of believing you are in danger of hell-fire- you probably are, but not because you sinned, but because you don't believe what Jesus has done for you. When you believe and let Him love you and receive His love, your desire to sin drops precipitously. IF you do mess up, you have an advocate with the Father who is faithful and true and will forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness (this is scripture). If you aren't a believer, you must recognize that without Him you are condemned already, not by Him, but by your deeds (for Jesus aka God) did not come to condemn the world, but to save it if you believe (again scripture). Believe and let Him save you. Receive His forgiveness and stop living in the past like Lot's wife. If you wake up every day struggling to not sin, you have missed the point and lack belief in what God has said He does for you. Let sin/flesh die and live in Christ. What d oes that mean- you wake up daily to live out the righteousness He gives you. You wake up daily in His love. YOu rejoice in His life and mercy and see it in others. You rejoice because you are a Son or Daughter. You live in that place and aren't pushed out of it, but if you are, you immediately run to Father God and HE will strengthen you- He doesn't change His mind about you and isn't capricious. He sent His Son for a reason. Christians need to live free in the freedom CHrist gives. Living this way allows us to invite others unto Christ and the freedom He brings. So that fear is not in our lives. "7For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love, and self-control." (2 tim 1). So if your "fear" of God is always wondering if you are a Son or Daughter, or wondering if you'll "make it." I encourage you to get to know God more, to understand His word stands - He upholds His word even above His name. Don't live in a spirit of fear, but of power and love and a sound mind. Rejoice in Righteousness and take captive any thought that seems to want to separate you from God and put it in submission to Christ who sought to unify you with God. Now reap what Jesus sowed. Now speak life that Christ gave you. Now enjoy hte law of Christ and no longer live in the law of sin and death. He has set us free and His grace empowers us to live free and live in Him with His Spirit always - God is with us- believe it and live in the awesome fear or understanding that God loves you and is growing you up into Him to look like Him and be the light of the world and yield to His transformation so you will see Him as HE is and know that you are like Him in the last days. (1 john 3) ANYONE who has that hope is PURE even as He is pure. Amen.

I had the strangest debate with my Muslim friend and TBM sister who both believed we should literally fear God.

What about “Perfect love casters out fear.”
Or… “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Another consideration - which God do you suggest we fear? Are you taking the prepackaged Talmud god who commands killing most people? Or are you suggesting the Constantine/Eusebius/Council voting human sacrifice scapegoating prepackaged god? Or have you dared to wrestle with such old ideas of God to try to learn about the real God?

On a lighter note: Which God?
https://youtu.be/QhMO5SSmiaA?feature=shared

Thinker wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 9:44 am I had the strangest debate with my Muslim friend and TBM sister who both believed we should literally fear God.

What about “Perfect love casters out fear.”
Or… “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Another consideration - which God do you suggest we fear? Are you taking the prepackaged Talmud god who commands killing most people? Or are you suggesting the Constantine/Eusebius/Council voting human sacrifice scapegoating prepackaged god? Or have you dared to wrestle with such old ideas of God to try to learn about the real God?

On a lighter note: Which God?
https://youtu.be/QhMO5SSmiaA?feature=shared

It is sad that many people believe we should literally fear God as in have terror of Him.
Nice star wars reference.

If you had read what I wrote, you would already know the answers to those questions (albeit your questions already demonstrate you don't care about my answers, you are preaching your beliefs while being passive aggressive) - but sometimes we have forgotten the counsel of James "Be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to anger"

More often though we are quick to speak, slow to listen and quick to anger.

Fear of God is the initial process of first coming to Him and understanding what life without Him is

It is not so much the fear of God.... It is the fear of the absence of God in you

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
++++++++++

nightlight wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 10:11 am Fear of God is the initial process of first coming to Him and understanding what life without Him is

It is not so much the fear of God.... It is the fear of the absence of God in you

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
++++++++++

Yeah, I tried to cover that part in my post, but this could definitely be added to it and is very succinct and is definitely a good addition to the OP. Thank you.

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 10:20 am

nightlight wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 10:11 am Fear of God is the initial process of first coming to Him and understanding what life without Him is

It is not so much the fear of God.... It is the fear of the absence of God in you

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
++++++++++

Yeah, I tried to cover that part in my post, but this could definitely be added to it and is very succinct and is definitely a good addition to the OP. Thank you.

No, you covered it well. I just gave a "dummies version" because I'm an overthinker. The more words, the more I'm prone to overthink and make myself a dummy. Lol it's why I love the Book of Mormon. I glory in plainness

Fear of God.......

Is the same "Respect" a little child gives his earthly Father........Trusting, loving and having innocent faith in him.

Thanks for the long OP in explaining the meaning of "fear of God". It is tiring at times to attempt to tackle subjects like this because it really does take a long treatise to explain such a simple concept.

Words mean different things to different people because everyone has a very subjective or bias view of what "the truth" is.

We ALL have bias in our interpretation of words. We make the Gospel into our own image and we choose the God that resembles our own projection of what we are or what we prefer.

Whenever there is a clear contradiction in scriptures, it always means that there are at least two different ways to understand it. When that contradiction is found between the OT and the NT, it's a safe measure to discard the OT version. The OT is done. Christ is the teaching of the Tree of Life .

2 Tim

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

My take on the subject:

To stand in humble awe of the Father. Perhaps better would be the word "prostrate". Complete submission.

TheChristian wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 11:35 am Fear of God.......

Is the same "Respect" a little child gives his earthly Father........Trusting, loving and having innocent faith in him.

Yes, another beautiful response and succinct- it captures beautifully the relationship He wants with us and desires us to have with Him as well.

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 10:00 am

Thinker wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 9:44 am I had the strangest debate with my Muslim friend and TBM sister who both believed we should literally fear God.

What about “Perfect love casters out fear.”
Or… “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Another consideration - which God do you suggest we fear? Are you taking the prepackaged Talmud god who commands killing most people? Or are you suggesting the Constantine/Eusebius/Council voting human sacrifice scapegoating prepackaged god? Or have you dared to wrestle with such old ideas of God to try to learn about the real God?

On a lighter note: Which God?
https://youtu.be/QhMO5SSmiaA?feature=shared

It is sad that many people believe we should literally fear God as in have terror of Him.
Nice star wars reference.

If you had read what I wrote, you would already know the answers to those questions (albeit your questions already demonstrate you don't care about my answers, you are preaching your beliefs while being passive aggressive) - but sometimes we have forgotten the counsel of James "Be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to anger"

More often though we are quick to speak, slow to listen and quick to anger.

Please focus on the topic - attack my ideas all you want.

I asked questions that I would like answered - if possible. Which God is a huge part of our spiritual development. Consider how a child imagines God, compared to someone who has lived a full life of trials and triumphs - learning about God along the way.

Thinker wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 10:26 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 10:00 am

Thinker wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 9:44 am I had the strangest debate with my Muslim friend and TBM sister who both believed we should literally fear God.

What about “Perfect love casters out fear.”
Or… “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Another consideration - which God do you suggest we fear? Are you taking the prepackaged Talmud god who commands killing most people? Or are you suggesting the Constantine/Eusebius/Council voting human sacrifice scapegoating prepackaged god? Or have you dared to wrestle with such old ideas of God to try to learn about the real God?

On a lighter note: Which God?
https://youtu.be/QhMO5SSmiaA?feature=shared

It is sad that many people believe we should literally fear God as in have terror of Him.
Nice star wars reference.

If you had read what I wrote, you would already know the answers to those questions (albeit your questions already demonstrate you don't care about my answers, you are preaching your beliefs while being passive aggressive) - but sometimes we have forgotten the counsel of James "Be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to anger"

More often though we are quick to speak, slow to listen and quick to anger.

Pretending to read my mind and then misjudging me on your own assumptions.

Your questions are laced with presuppositions and come from a premise that neither of us have agreed on in the past. You know exactly what I believe- therefore your "questions" were a form of your own preaching- not with intent to know. Furthermore, the answers to your questions are found in what was written. They were also written in such a way as a child did to their friends in gradeschool - something to the akin of " Do your parents know you are stupid?" So your questions weren't really questions OR you weren't quick to listen. As for the rest, perhaps you are misjudging me on your own assumptions. There was no personal attack, that is an assumption you are making.

Have the last word.

John,
Please focus on the topic - attack my ideas all you want.

Isn’t this a forum where we bring up ideas to discuss with “freedom”? Or is only agreeing & thinking alike ok with you?

I asked questions that I would like answered - if possible. Which God is a huge part of our spiritual development. Consider how a child imagines God, compared to someone who has lived a full life of trials and triumphs - learning about God along the way.

Thinker wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 10:50 am John,
Please focus on the topic - attack my ideas all you want.

Isn’t this a forum where we bring up ideas to discuss with “freedom”? Or is only agreeing & thinking alike ok with you?

I asked questions that I would like answered - if possible. Which God is a huge part of our spiritual development. Consider how a child imagines God, compared to someone who has lived a full life of trials and triumphs - learning about God along the way.

Then ask questions not laced with your own attitude of "you're wrong." Something like " How did you view God as a child? What is your perception of God as you've grown to know Him? Rather than "Hey do you still believe in a scapegoating God that constantine created (without any citation, without any clarification of what that is)? Me commenting on poor questions is attacking your ideas and not you. It is disingenuous to say those questions aren't laced with disdain and with a true desire to learn about what someone else believes.

If you want freedom to discuss the ideas then tell us what you think fearing God is and who God is and what your view is.

See your questions here are very different than the ones you asked above and my response would have been very different if you had asked a question like you asked here.

To answer your question- I think it depends. I believe we are told to be as a little child. As The Christian said, we are to see Him as Father- to trust in, love Him (as we see He loves us - even to the giving of His life for us) and have innocent faith in Him and believe Him as He is- I believe we are to remain there. As life continues with trials and triumphs it should only be a continuation of that childlike faith- deepening our understanding of hte Love of God towards us. Understanding hte nuances of why He does what He does, but having that child-like innocent trust in Him continually- as we dwell in His love we more greatly understand Him and know Him and we begin to be fashioned in His image.

That is much better than us often no longer relying on God and relying on our own flesh- which normally happens because we have a wrong perspective of God, we throw tempertantrums and run away from Him and then come back when we want something and became very self-focused and envious along the way. So we begin to treat Father like a bank account or genie, versus a Father that sees amazing potential in us and desires us to fulfill our destiny in Him- Who has give us a companion continually - the HOly Spirit- who truly sees teh beginning from the end.

A wrong perspective of GOd can influence a child quite a bit - especially if they come from parents who don't embody much of God in their lives. But regardless, God has told us we must deny ourselves, and seek Him alone. That is how we come to know Him and grow in Him as He shows us who He really is- that through Jesus Christ.

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 10:53 am

Thinker wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 10:50 am John,
Please focus on the topic - attack my ideas all you want.

Isn’t this a forum where we bring up ideas to discuss with “freedom”? Or is only agreeing & thinking alike ok with you?

I asked questions that I would like answered - if possible. Which God is a huge part of our spiritual development. Consider how a child imagines God, compared to someone who has lived a full life of trials and triumphs - learning about God along the way.

Then ask questions not laced with your own attitude of "you're wrong." Something like " How did you view God as a child? What is your perception of God as you've grown to know Him? Rather than "Hey do you still believe in a scapegoating God that constantine created (without any citation, without any clarification of what that is)? Me commenting on poor questions is attacking your ideas and not you. It is disingenuous to say those questions aren't laced with disdain and with a true desire to learn about what someone else believes.

If you want freedom to discuss the ideas then tell us what you think fearing God is and who God is and what your view is.

See your questions here are very different than the ones you asked above and my response would have been very different if you had asked a question like you asked here.

To answer your question- I think it depends. I believe we are told to be as a little child. As The Christian said, we are to see Him as Father- to trust in, love Him (as we see He loves us - even to the giving of His life for us) and have innocent faith in Him and believe Him as He is- I believe we are to remain there. As life continues with trials and triumphs it should only be a continuation of that childlike faith- deepening our understanding of hte Love of God towards us. Understanding hte nuances of why He does what He does, but having that child-like innocent trust in Him continually- as we dwell in His love we more greatly understand Him and know Him and we begin to be fashioned in His image.

That is much better than us often no longer relying on God and relying on our own flesh- which normally happens because we have a wrong perspective of God, we throw tempertantrums and run away from Him and then come back when we want something and became very self-focused and envious along the way. So we begin to treat Father like a bank account or genie, versus a Father that sees amazing potential in us and desires us to fulfill our destiny in Him- Who has give us a companion continually - the HOly Spirit- who truly sees teh beginning from the end.

A wrong perspective of GOd can influence a child quite a bit - especially if they come from parents who don't embody much of God in their lives. But regardless, God has told us we must deny ourselves, and seek Him alone. That is how we come to know Him and grow in Him as He shows us who He really is- that through Jesus Christ.

Again, if I write something that you disagree with - then say so specifically. STOP PERSONALLY ATTACKING ME. Please stop imagining what you think I’m thinking and then condemning me on that. Focus on the topics.

I have offered plenty of citation regarding Constantine, Eusebius and councils that voted on beliefs Christian’s should have - which many still have today.
viewtopic.php?t=52528

John, when I first came across your posts, I was impressed with someone who thought for himself. So I admit that I struggle with frustration that you somehow go along with human sacrifice and scapegoating - when both are obviously evil. Why? I can’t believe that a thinking, moral person could think that shifting blame to make an innocent person suffer is ok. And killing a human to appease God? Obviously satanic. Not of God. But a false god. If mistaken please explain.

IMO, fear is not of God. Satan would want us to fear God. Prioritizing God is not fearing God - but making God’s will on the top of our lists.

I agree that parents have a lot of influence on how we begin to imagine God. And so do substitute parental authorities like religious writers and leaders.

Thinker wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 11:52 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 10:53 am

Thinker wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 10:50 am John,
Please focus on the topic - attack my ideas all you want.

Isn’t this a forum where we bring up ideas to discuss with “freedom”? Or is only agreeing & thinking alike ok with you?

I asked questions that I would like answered - if possible. Which God is a huge part of our spiritual development. Consider how a child imagines God, compared to someone who has lived a full life of trials and triumphs - learning about God along the way.

Then ask questions not laced with your own attitude of "you're wrong." Something like " How did you view God as a child? What is your perception of God as you've grown to know Him? Rather than "Hey do you still believe in a scapegoating God that constantine created (without any citation, without any clarification of what that is)? Me commenting on poor questions is attacking your ideas and not you. It is disingenuous to say those questions aren't laced with disdain and with a true desire to learn about what someone else believes.

If you want freedom to discuss the ideas then tell us what you think fearing God is and who God is and what your view is.

See your questions here are very different than the ones you asked above and my response would have been very different if you had asked a question like you asked here.

To answer your question- I think it depends. I believe we are told to be as a little child. As The Christian said, we are to see Him as Father- to trust in, love Him (as we see He loves us - even to the giving of His life for us) and have innocent faith in Him and believe Him as He is- I believe we are to remain there. As life continues with trials and triumphs it should only be a continuation of that childlike faith- deepening our understanding of hte Love of God towards us. Understanding hte nuances of why He does what He does, but having that child-like innocent trust in Him continually- as we dwell in His love we more greatly understand Him and know Him and we begin to be fashioned in His image.

That is much better than us often no longer relying on God and relying on our own flesh- which normally happens because we have a wrong perspective of God, we throw tempertantrums and run away from Him and then come back when we want something and became very self-focused and envious along the way. So we begin to treat Father like a bank account or genie, versus a Father that sees amazing potential in us and desires us to fulfill our destiny in Him- Who has give us a companion continually - the HOly Spirit- who truly sees teh beginning from the end.

A wrong perspective of GOd can influence a child quite a bit - especially if they come from parents who don't embody much of God in their lives. But regardless, God has told us we must deny ourselves, and seek Him alone. That is how we come to know Him and grow in Him as He shows us who He really is- that through Jesus Christ.

Again, if I write something that you disagree with - then say so specifically. STOP PERSONALLY ATTACKING ME. Please stop imagining what you think I’m thinking and then condemning me on that. Focus on the topics.

I have offered plenty of citation regarding Constantine, Eusebius and councils that voted on beliefs Christian’s should have - which many still have today.
viewtopic.php?t=52528

John, when I first came across your posts, I was impressed with someone who thought for himself. So I admit that I struggle with frustration that you somehow go along with human sacrifice and scapegoating - when both are obviously evil. Why? I can’t believe that a thinking, moral person could think that shifting blame to make an innocent person suffer is ok. And killing a human to appease God? Obviously satanic. Not of God. But a false god. If mistaken please explain.

IMO, fear is not of God. Satan would want us to fear God. Prioritizing God is not fearing God - but making God’s will on the top of our lists.

I agree that parents have a lot of influence on how we begin to imagine God. And so to substitute parental authorities like religious writers and leaders.

I read your post, you don't wrestle with God better than anybody on here. You "thinking" doesn't make it so.

You are becoming more &more spiteful towards Christians and Christianity. Lol
As if one of them pissed in your cereal

You do believe in human sacrifice

Just not Jesus Christ

It's not about sacrifice, or you'd never sacrifice yourself to save your children

You're not more moral than a Christian, it is a silly silly thing you're doing lately.

I promise you, everything you think you do to make amends for the things you do wrong (repent) ..... a true Christian does as well.
What you don't understand....is that still not enough.... You'd have to pay for it in hell

Maybe.....just a thought, going on to a predominantly Christian forum and constantly telling people that their sincere beliefs are evil.......might not be too productive

Then you try to protect yourself from critique, crying that everybody's either being passive aggressive or aggressive...

You passively tell people they're evil constantly on here. Then you cry about people being aggressive or passive aggressive

It is silly

5 years ago, most people on this forum worshipped church leaders. Back then, if most of us said what we do now, we’d be kicked off. People would’ve called us apostate etc., & otherwise shamed us as not belonging on the forum. Then covid insanity happened and it woke people up. But many here still cling to old, dysfunctional ideas like human sacrifice scapegoating.

Then, just as cult members, some want to shoot the messenger rather than consider their gods might be false.


I admit and apologize for being kind of blunt and condescending. Sometimes I throw out ideas and expect people to see how they make sense, without needed sugarcoating. It’s something I’m working on.

Still, human sacrifice is immoral, as is scapegoating.

Thinker wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 12:35 pm

Still, human sacrifice is immoral, as is scapegoating.

I'll take that to the next level and give my personal perspective:

Animal sacrifice is barbaric and always has been.

To appease a 'God' through animal sacrifice apparently worked for some time for neanderthals.

I could quote all of the scriptures on 'God' consuming sacrifices, describing it as sweet and savorful. Even him descending to consume it. Probably best not dive into that too deep. The nature of God? Which God?

I think fear is a misleading word here in some ways. When we fear God, it is not because he wants the worst for us, but because he wants the best.

FrankOne wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 2:03 pm…1) Animal sacrifice is barbaric and always has been…

2) I could quote all of the scriptures on 'God' consuming sacrifices, describing it as sweet and savorful. Even him descending to consume it. Probably best not dive into that too deep. The nature of God? Which God?

1) Do you think human sacrifice is better or worse than animal sacrifice?
If you walked into a religious service, and saw a killing sacrifice ritual, would it be more immoral to see a human being killed for god, or an animal killed for god?

2) “We see things (ie God) not as they are but as we are.”

Thinker wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 4:45 pm

FrankOne wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 2:03 pm…1) Animal sacrifice is barbaric and always has been…

2) I could quote all of the scriptures on 'God' consuming sacrifices, describing it as sweet and savorful. Even him descending to consume it. Probably best not dive into that too deep. The nature of God? Which God?

1) Do you think human sacrifice is better or worse than animal sacrifice?
If you walked into a religious service, and saw a killing sacrifice ritual, would it be more immoral to see a human being killed for god, or an animal killed for god?

2) “We see things (ie God) not as they are but as we are.”

Human sacrifice is pure insanity.

People that are angry , follow an angry God.
People that are vengeful, follow a vengeful God.
People that are jealous, follow a jealous God
People that are filled with fear, follow a fearful God.

Then comes the quantum leap:
People striving to understand how to forgive all men, unconditionally, are following The Christ.

FrankOne wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 6:08 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 4:45 pm 1) Do you think human sacrifice is better or worse than animal sacrifice?
If you walked into a religious service, and saw a killing sacrifice ritual, would it be more immoral to see a human being killed for god, or an animal killed for god?

2) “We see things (ie God) not as they are but as we are.”

Human sacrifice is pure insanity.

People that are angry , follow an angry God.
People that are vengeful, follow a vengeful God.
People that are jealous, follow a jealous God
People that are filled with fear, follow a fearful God.

Then comes the quantum leap:
People striving to understand how to forgive all men, unconditionally, are following The Christ.

Glad you see human sacrifice as insane. That helps my sanity.

I don't believe in human sacrifice Most Christians don't, that is a twisted view and takes Christianity out of context. What we believe in is God sacrifice. God came down in the flesh and gave His life- He didn't give up life until He chose to. As the scripture says " 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.” When we commit sin or injury, or hurt towards anyone, nothing can restore something perfectly back to place. We can say sorry, we can cry, we can apologize, we can seek to offer restitution, but the reality is, things have changed. It isn't the same. Something broken or lost is still lost- it may be a new thing, but the old is gone.

In the world there are certain laws which were laid down after God gave man dominion over the earth 1) the law of sin and death- sin leads to death, if you commit sin, not only does it hurt your own soul and what you were created for, but it can cause damage in other souls too- we can try to restore something, but the word spoken still remain, the damage has happened, we can try to forget, or try and repair what was lost, but it will never be what it was before it was damaged. Death is the punishment for you can not fully restore what has been broken. That is the only Justice available. Death is death, one can not escape death once it is there unless, someone takes all death, and overcomes it and has the power to rise up to life again- which Christ did 2) You reap what you sow. If you sow wickedness you will reap wickedness, if you sow sin, you will reap sin, if you sow bitterness you will reap bitterness,if you sow hate you will reap hate, if you sow death you will reap death, etc...- and how we sow things into the world determines what we get out of it. We sin, we reap death. We sow more sin we reap more death. If we sow righteousness we can reap righteousness, but how do we sow righteousness when we have become corrupt? How does what obtain cleanliness? The damage is still there, the pain, the hurt - to ourselves and others... 3) The power of life and death is in the tongue. From the mouth the heart speaks. We can curse or bless with our tongue- from a heart that is pure or corrupt. Hurting or blessing and encouraging. Condemning or encouraging- bringing life or death to each person we encounter - including ourselves and how we think about ourselves- and whether what we think is truth. From the mouth Life came forth "Let there be light."

Jesus Christ came as God in the form of man for 3 main purposes 1) to restore us back into relationship with hte Father- Man once they sinned ran and hid from God immediately - they fled, they didn't want to be around Him, they were ashamed- God offered them covering as a representation of what was to come. This relationship allows us to come boldly before our Father, to see what HE sees in us. 2) in Order to restore us into relationship so we no longer were ashamed Jesus Christ took upon HImself all sin and then placed sin on a cross (a pole) to represent sin being cursed, that it would have no more power over us if we choose to crucify our flesh and believe on Him- He came to save us, not condemn us , for we were already condemned. So Sin was placed on Christ, it was cursed- it was represented in such a way that Isaiah states "he was marred beyond any other man" and yet he was still alive." Why? Because He chooses when to give up His life. Then after His death, He raised Himself up again in the newness of life- as we are to be through belief on Him3) He gave us a pattern unto how we can bear His name. He gave a path so that we might not have to die as in be killed/have blood shed in order to make full restitution (for only in death is there no longer a fear of being hurt again). We could die to our flesh, and be born again- by Him giving us His Spirit- making us one with Him. We no longer bear our own names, but bear the name of Christ (or the anointed one). We become little anointed ones. Because we are dead to sin, we also let others sin against not produce sin in us - it is crucified with Christ on the cross. We become one with Him. We accept the covenant that Jesus made with the Father (who are one) but was made in the flesh - in order to show themselves approved so that God knowing what it was like to be man might be an advocate for us. (Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God). The covenant is that if we die (or deny ourselves) pick up our cross daily(not let sin against us produce sin in us willing to die before it produces sin in us) and seek the righteousness of God, / follow Him. We will and are saved- why? Because it is no longer us who sinned, but the flesh, but our dead selves. We are made anew. The Sacrament is a reminder of us becoming one flesh with Jesus Christ, of being willing to shed our blood for the love of others. It is to remind us of the divinity inside of us. How He gives His life and how it changes us to become new creatures in God satisfies the demands of justice- It was satisfied to such an extent that He was even raised from the dead from the authority He had received.

Another way of saying it is like this: In order to receive freedom from Sin we must die as well- the flesh is crucified- we don't love our own lives even unto death. We are considered dead - having suffered death as required- as we take upon the name of Christ- we are adopted Sons or Daughters, giving up our past being crucified with Jesus Christ. We also are raised with Him in the newness of Life. No longer does our sin condemn us, it was condemned when we died, when Jesus Christ died- anything placed on a cross/pole is cursed by God "He who knew no sin became sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." Because we died by equally giving up our lives as Christ did and joining Him as He was one with the Father, the confirmation of our death is the reception of the Holy Ghost. We are set free. The Holy Ghost which is the mind of God is in us and through us and transforms us- as it gives us a new heart, it changes our minds it transforms us as we bear His name- the proof that we have given our lives up and are acceptable before God. Because of Jesus Christ we can speak with God boldly, we no longer have any issues with feeling "unworthy" or lack confidence when we speak with Him. Though He is awe filling, we don't shrink back because of worthlessness by seeing the entire truth in us- which we see all weaknesses and faults when in His presence, but run forward because of His Mercy and love and see the potential He has for us, the divinity with in us Death ought not have more power in us through Jesus Christ-because of Him we are free and His death AND life- even after resurrection gives us the grace to become more than what we even think possible, it empowers us to obtain the divine potential for which God created us in the beginning.

Jesus (the Last Adam) reversed course all of that as we bear His name. Now we speak life, now we reap what He sowed ( God) and now we we are under the Law of Christ, not the law of Sin and Death- through Him and by Him which created ALL things- who came to give life and life more abundantly. As righteous branches coming forth from Christ who was righteous - we produce righteous fruit- it is impossible not to and we will grow in righteousness and goodness and love and charity (which covers a multitude of sins) As Peter taught is : For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. God seeks our heart- so our actions aren't from mere obedience but out of a love for Him, because HE loved us first - and how do we know He loves us ? Because He laid down His life for us (1 John)... so we too ought to do the same for our brethren. Romans 5:8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. We are loved and precious in His sight, so much so that God condescended, put on flesh to give His life so we might live and not be condemned- suffered justice so that mercy might triumph over justice (James 2:13)

God is amazing- He loves us so much- and His Son ( who is the Son because He demonstrates how we are to be Sons and God condescended in order to show us what a Son is and how much He desires to give us) is proof of that love. From there, from that foundation, we can live a life that gives life and rejoice continually in His love and receive love ourselves- to become love in a world that struggles to understand beyond lust.

A very well written post. I am confused by people who believe we should fear God. I am finding that the closer I become to my Father in Heaven, the more deeply I realize this is a false teaching. We fear what we do not know... (just sayin)

I think people are taught to fear as a coercion against sinful acts. Much like parents teach their children to be good or Santa will not bring them presents. It is much easier this way than teaching to simply be good people.

As with my Father in Heaven... Even knowing that he could utterly destroy me at his will, I do not fear him. I trust in his judgement and flourish in his love.

To know our Father is to know Love. A pure love which brings such joy as to make me feel as if I will burst.

Quick thought: We are an ant before God, and our awe at his awesomeness overlaps a lot with a recognition that he could squash us if he wanted. Personally, I can see why the word fear is used to convey the sentiment.

elbur wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 12:29 pm Quick thought: We are an ant before God, and our awe at his awesomeness overlaps a lot with a recognition that he could squash us if he wanted. Personally, I can see why the word fear is used to convey the sentiment.

True when you consider only the Intelligent Design (Universe & beyond, all powerful omnipotence!!) part of God.

But IMO, there are countless other parts of God - mainly “the kingdom of God within” and “God is love”/loving the highest GOoD/truth, loving others as ourselves. For these parts of God, fear is counterproductive to getting close to God.