LDS Freedom Forum

I think it's wise to have a deep respect of the Eternal Father of Heaven and Earth. I am afraid of electricity and cars and nuclear bombs. I gratefully use and love two of those things. Am I afraid of offending the Almighty who is infinitely more powerful than any of those things? Of course, I am. Maybe being afraid of God here on earth is why we won't be afraid of him at Judgement Day.

The same spirit we have in this life will be the one we have in the next. How we perceive things now will be how we perceive them in the next life. In other words if you are afraid of Him here, it won't change when you see Him, because you won't have the relationship to know Him. It's why God says Knowing the Father is eternal life- and knowing His Son whom he has sent. Knowing is eternal life. If God does not give a spirit of fear, then the fear we feel, can not be from God and is designed to prevent us from knowing God and having relationship with Him.

Atrasado wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 1:24 pm I think it's wise to have a deep respect of the Eternal Father of Heaven and Earth. I am afraid of electricity and cars and nuclear bombs. I gratefully use and love two of those things.

Wait, you don't use cars?

elbur wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 3:41 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 1:24 pm I think it's wise to have a deep respect of the Eternal Father of Heaven and Earth. I am afraid of electricity and cars and nuclear bombs. I gratefully use and love two of those things.

Wait, you don't use cars?

Well played.

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 11:05 am I don't believe in human sacrifice Most Christians don't, that is a twisted view and takes Christianity out of context. What we believe in is God sacrifice. God came down in the flesh and gave His life- He didn't give up life until He chose to.

again, very well written post.

I posted the first part to just answer that portion:

My point of view includes perspectives of Christianity, Gnosticism (which is Christian as well), and Ancient eastern teachings. I can't say that I totally understand the 'death' of Jesus. The first point is that he didn't die. We all celebrate his 'sacrifice' when there wasn't one at all. He knew he was immortal. He knew the body was just a piece of clothing. He did not die!

As far as the Father supposedly sacrificing his son, again, there was no sacrifice. Christ did not die. He stepped out of his clothing and put different clothing on afterwards! Why has history and modern teachings made such a drama about it?

To understand this, try putting yourself in his position. You are completely certain that you are immortal. You know you can't die. You let them nail you to a cross, which , yes was obviously painful, but was it any more painful than the innumerable deaths that have occurred in the battlefield? no.

Was there a sacrifice of 'self'? No . Did the father sacrifice his son? No. The Father knew perfectly well that Christ would simply step out of sight and reappear 3 days later and be glorified for it! The Father gave the Son a Gift! Modern religion and the Catholic Church's choice of scriptures are designed to blind men, until you decide that you've had enough of the drama.

The suffering in the Garden.. that is a different subject yet seldom discussed in depth. Why bleed from every pore? It was more than just about pain.

of course, there is the theory that Christ had children, and his actual blood was dispersed to this day. I wasn't there, so I don't know. If anyone knows the actual truth of this, I would love to hear it. (seriously).

Thinker wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 1:04 pm

elbur wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 12:29 pm Quick thought: We are an ant before God, and our awe at his awesomeness overlaps a lot with a recognition that he could squash us if he wanted. Personally, I can see why the word fear is used to convey the sentiment.

True when you consider only the Intelligent Design (Universe & beyond, all powerful omnipotence!!) part of God.

But IMO, there are countless other parts of God - mainly “the kingdom of God within” and “God is love”/loving the highest GOoD/truth, loving others as ourselves. For these parts of God, fear is counterproductive to getting close to God.

Hmm... let me think about this.

On the one hand, I think those other parts of God are closely connected to the awesomeness of God. An awesome God has laws that permeate all of his creation (is that the "kingdom of God within"?) and he is the epitome of love toward his creation or he wouldn't last in his awesomeness long and would be overthrown (that's what came out of my thought sponge, so I'll roll with it).

I think you're right that if we're focusing on those aspects of God, we don't feel the emotion of awe as much. But my gut says that awe (which overlaps with "fear" in my view) still underlies our feelings toward these components. I don't know, I think Jesus loved the Father quite a bit, but he still seemed to show him a lot of deference and awe in how he spoke to him.

It's very possible that this preliminary thought is missing something. If you can see that something and want to point it out, feel free. Cheers.

Thinker wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 12:35 pm 5 years ago, most people on this forum worshipped church leaders. Back then, if most of us said what we do now, we’d be kicked off. People would’ve called us apostate etc., & otherwise shamed us as not belonging on the forum. Then covid insanity happened and it woke people up. But many here still cling to old, dysfunctional ideas like human sacrifice scapegoating.

Then, just as cult members, some want to shoot the messenger rather than consider their gods might be false.

I admit and apologize for being kind of blunt and condescending. Sometimes I throw out ideas and expect people to see how they make sense, without needed sugarcoating. It’s something I’m working on.

Still, human sacrifice is immoral, as is scapegoating.

IIRC, 5 years ago was much worse than it is now, with at least three people who believed they were God/ Jesus Christ/ the Chosen One; many flocked to them with itching ears and listened. Just saying...

elbur wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 7:07 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 1:04 pm

elbur wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 12:29 pm Quick thought: We are an ant before God, and our awe at his awesomeness overlaps a lot with a recognition that he could squash us if he wanted. Personally, I can see why the word fear is used to convey the sentiment.

True when you consider only the Intelligent Design (Universe & beyond, all powerful omnipotence!!) part of God.

But IMO, there are countless other parts of God - mainly “the kingdom of God within” and “God is love”/loving the highest GOoD/truth, loving others as ourselves. For these parts of God, fear is counterproductive to getting close to God.

Hmm... let me think about this.

On the one hand, I think those other parts of God are closely connected to the awesomeness of God. An awesome God has laws that permeate all of his creation (is that the "kingdom of God within"?) and he is the epitome of love toward his creation or he wouldn't last in his awesomeness long and would be overthrown (that's what came out of my thought sponge, so I'll roll with it).

I think you're right that if we're focusing on those aspects of God, we don't feel the emotion of awe as much. But my gut says that awe (which overlaps with "fear" in my view) still underlies our feelings toward these components. I don't know, I think Jesus loved the Father quite a bit, but he still seemed to show him a lot of deference and awe in how he spoke to him.

It's very possible that this preliminary thought is missing something. If you can see that something and want to point it out, feel free. Cheers.

I can’t think of a more interesting topic. Thank you for being open to explore with me. Neither of us really knows much compared to ALL there is to know - in other words, we’ll never in this life know ALL about God. Just speculations - but exploring it is important. I explained to atheist friends that I acknowledge from a purely logical perspective, Agnosticism is the only reasonable view… However, logic is only 1 of about 7 branches of thought, religion & aesthetics/beauty being others. Beauty is not usually decided upon based on thorough logical analysis. Similarly, we don’t listen to music or dance because of logic. Thoughts affect us spiritually, socially & physically (ie placebo) - so we need thoughts that inspire us to thrive - and logic may play a part but is not dictator.

Belief in God is, to me, the one thing that I can trust, even though my ideas of God necessarily evolve as I learn more.

God - how best to worship or prioritize? Respect, honor - but not fear God.

Fear: “emotion induced by perceived danger or threat”

Respect or submit to God - does not mean fearing. Fearing implies the opposite - trying to get away out of fear.

Anciently, maybe due to more unknowns, there were more superstitious-based fears involved with religious beliefs.

“Yr” (Hebrew for fear) suggests subordination to a higher authority. Anciently they paired yr (fear) with deity. Yr (fear) was considered both emotion and action - so one could express fear correctly or incorrectly.
https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/sites/b ... sater4.pdf

Moreover, when considering how we ideally relate to God, the appropriate word, IMO is not fear, but respect and submission to God’s will.

Or… maybe “fear God” is “face your fears with God”?

JohnnyL wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 10:28 pm

Thinker wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 12:35 pm 5 years ago, most people on this forum worshipped church leaders. Back then, if most of us said what we do now, we’d be kicked off. People would’ve called us apostate etc., & otherwise shamed us as not belonging on the forum. Then covid insanity happened and it woke people up. But many here still cling to old, dysfunctional ideas like human sacrifice scapegoating.

Then, just as cult members, some want to shoot the messenger rather than consider their gods might be false.

I admit and apologize for being kind of blunt and condescending. Sometimes I throw out ideas and expect people to see how they make sense, without needed sugarcoating. It’s something I’m working on.

Still, human sacrifice is immoral, as is scapegoating.

IIRC, 5 years ago was much worse than it is now, with at least three people who believed they were God/ Jesus Christ/ the Chosen One; many flocked to them with itching ears and listened. Just saying...

Good point.
Sometimes when I think of the enormous leap this forum, generally, has taken over a short time, it seems unbelievably amazing!

I suppose I can be impatient and want more than amazing blessings already given. After my initial lds faith crisis, I began wondering about Christian dogma… & read another forum comment of someone who basically said, “Losing my faith in the lds church was a lot. Don’t ask me to lose my faith in Christianity too.” It is painful to go through a truth/faith crisis. And we need to have faith in something - even if it’s not the highest God. Though, all will fail except God. Live & learn.