LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 9:04 am**

Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 12th, 2023, 11:10 pm
Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:16 pm Please give us a verifiable, first hand account of the priesthood healing. Not someone undergoing chemo and they received a blessing and four months later the cancer was gone. I want a story about grandpa getting shot in the face, dying, son gives him a blessing to be healed and grandpa stands up and continues hunt right them and there. I want some real faith promoting story. Not something about a dude in the hospital for three weeks and miraculously after then 53rd priesthood blessing (and countless drugs and medical intervention) he feels better. Oh it must have been the priesthood blessings! Arent we promised by Christ that if you have enough faith you could in fact command the dead to arise and walk? Right then and there. Bam. Your alive! So where is that faith? These dudes are claiming to be Christs right hand men on Earth. Then prove it. Show us your faith. Stop giving us these fake, faith promoting stories. Stop claiming to be Christs apostles if you dont have the faith in or the power of Christ to command the sick to be well and the dead to rise .
Iohani Wolfgramm. He died a while ago, but his legacy lives on. I read his book "Man of Faith and Vision." I have an electronic copy. I've found a story that might fit what you are asking for and will copy it in a new post.

Edit: The story doesn't fit what you are asking in regards to apostles of the LDS Church. It concerns a very humble man and his little daughter. He did finally come to the mainland United States, and his fame spread until he was told not to give anymore blessings. I think he asked for permission later (to give at least one blessing), and it was given.

He was humble and he was obedient to his leaders. That obedient to his leaders part was a disservice to those he could have blessed after he was forbidden, but he was a very good man.

They were jealous and threatened by someone who actually had power in their priesthood.

When you make big claims about your authority, but don't bring the goods... It would be kind of embarrassing.

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 9:54 am**

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 1:20 pm
ransomme wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 1:14 pm
InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:06 pm

What took them so long to give him a blessing of healing? Hasn't he been sick for some time now?
Maybe he finally had the faith not to be healed...
This is clearly the best comment in this thread. Probably the most accurate too.

Maybe so.

Part of the problem with healing is often an inability for the sick or their supporters to accept anything less than complete and immediate (or lesser degrees) healing. Once that is finally let go of, well, things work for the better, one way or the other.

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 9:56 am**

Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:16 pm
Sunain wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 2:09 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 9:53 am Good for Holland

Teaching that there are two separate healing types, one of faith...and one of priesthood, is an excellent microcosm of what's wrong

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 8:20 am Don't you mean "exercise faith in christ" rather than "exercise faith in the priesthood"? What does that even mean?
Many people don't believe in the power of the priesthood to heal. There is the faith to be healed, faith that the power of the priesthood can heal, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Please give us a verifiable, first hand account of the priesthood healing. Not someone undergoing chemo and they received a blessing and four months later the cancer was gone. I want a story about grandpa getting shot in the face, dying, son gives him a blessing to be healed and grandpa stands up and continues hunt right them and there. I want some real faith promoting story. Not something about a dude in the hospital for three weeks and miraculously after then 53rd priesthood blessing (and countless drugs and medical intervention) he feels better. Oh it must have been the priesthood blessings! Arent we promised by Christ that if you have enough faith you could in fact command the dead to arise and walk? Right then and there. Bam. Your alive! So where is that faith? These dudes are claiming to be Christs right hand men on Earth. Then prove it. Show us your faith. Stop giving us these fake, faith promoting stories. Stop claiming to be Christs apostles if you dont have the faith in or the power of Christ to command the sick to be well and the dead to rise .

Hmm... There's this, and then on the Mall thread someone complaining about how wrong it is to ask others to show their alms that were given in secret... Which is the correct answer?

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 10:09 am**

JohnnyL wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 9:56 am
Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:16 pm
Sunain wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 2:09 pm

Many people don't believe in the power of the priesthood to heal. There is the faith to be healed, faith that the power of the priesthood can heal, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Please give us a verifiable, first hand account of the priesthood healing. Not someone undergoing chemo and they received a blessing and four months later the cancer was gone. I want a story about grandpa getting shot in the face, dying, son gives him a blessing to be healed and grandpa stands up and continues hunt right them and there. I want some real faith promoting story. Not something about a dude in the hospital for three weeks and miraculously after then 53rd priesthood blessing (and countless drugs and medical intervention) he feels better. Oh it must have been the priesthood blessings! Arent we promised by Christ that if you have enough faith you could in fact command the dead to arise and walk? Right then and there. Bam. Your alive! So where is that faith? These dudes are claiming to be Christs right hand men on Earth. Then prove it. Show us your faith. Stop giving us these fake, faith promoting stories. Stop claiming to be Christs apostles if you dont have the faith in or the power of Christ to command the sick to be well and the dead to rise .
Hmm... There's this, and then on the Mall thread someone complaining about how wrong it is to ask others to show their alms that were given in secret... Which is the correct answer?

Alms is money or food given to poor people.

I think you are talking about how I said you (or was it someone else) were trying to catch Shawn in hypocrisy. But surely you can see how when Jesus told us to give money and food to poor people in secret, he meant it, and it goes against him to require we confess our alms just for the sake of not looking like a hypocrite in others' eyes?

I don't think people should be bragging about spiritual gifts, like healing, either. However, miracles will follow the believers, and if the scriptures are any indication, it's hard to keep witnesses quiet, lol. Their miracles may be published.

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 10:46 am**

Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 12th, 2023, 11:10 pm
Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:16 pm Please give us a verifiable, first hand account of the priesthood healing. Not someone undergoing chemo and they received a blessing and four months later the cancer was gone. I want a story about grandpa getting shot in the face, dying, son gives him a blessing to be healed and grandpa stands up and continues hunt right them and there. I want some real faith promoting story. Not something about a dude in the hospital for three weeks and miraculously after then 53rd priesthood blessing (and countless drugs and medical intervention) he feels better. Oh it must have been the priesthood blessings! Arent we promised by Christ that if you have enough faith you could in fact command the dead to arise and walk? Right then and there. Bam. Your alive! So where is that faith? These dudes are claiming to be Christs right hand men on Earth. Then prove it. Show us your faith. Stop giving us these fake, faith promoting stories. Stop claiming to be Christs apostles if you dont have the faith in or the power of Christ to command the sick to be well and the dead to rise .
Iohani Wolfgramm. He died a while ago, but his legacy lives on. I read his book "Man of Faith and Vision." I have an electronic copy. I've found a story that might fit what you are asking for and will copy it in a new post.

Edit: The story doesn't fit what you are asking in regards to apostles of the LDS Church. It concerns a very humble man and his little daughter. He did finally come to the mainland United States, and his fame spread until he was told not to give anymore blessings. I think he asked for permission later (to give at least one blessing), and it was given.

He was humble and he was obedient to his leaders. That obedient to his leaders part was a disservice to those he could have blessed after he was forbidden, but he was a very good man.

It proves that the Q15 are frauds. For the church to forbid a successful missionary of such power, is evil. Worse than evil. Purely satanic. They had become one with satan and did not want people finding Christ. People converted this way will never lose their testimony and will tell many people. The church was attempting to stop the Savior in his tracks. It takes an incredible hatred for mankind to deny them the blessings of God. Iohani should have asked them by what power they attempt to thwart the Almighty God.

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 12:35 pm**

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 10:09 am
JohnnyL wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 9:56 am
Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:16 pm

Please give us a verifiable, first hand account of the priesthood healing. Not someone undergoing chemo and they received a blessing and four months later the cancer was gone. I want a story about grandpa getting shot in the face, dying, son gives him a blessing to be healed and grandpa stands up and continues hunt right them and there. I want some real faith promoting story. Not something about a dude in the hospital for three weeks and miraculously after then 53rd priesthood blessing (and countless drugs and medical intervention) he feels better. Oh it must have been the priesthood blessings! Arent we promised by Christ that if you have enough faith you could in fact command the dead to arise and walk? Right then and there. Bam. Your alive! So where is that faith? These dudes are claiming to be Christs right hand men on Earth. Then prove it. Show us your faith. Stop giving us these fake, faith promoting stories. Stop claiming to be Christs apostles if you dont have the faith in or the power of Christ to command the sick to be well and the dead to rise .
Hmm... There's this, and then on the Mall thread someone complaining about how wrong it is to ask others to show their alms that were given in secret... Which is the correct answer?
Alms is money or food given to poor people.

I think you are talking about how I said you (or was it someone else) were trying to catch Shawn in hypocrisy. But surely you can see how when Jesus told us to give money and food to poor people in secret, he meant it, and it goes against him to require we confess our alms just for the sake of not looking like a hypocrite in others' eyes?

I don't think people should be bragging about spiritual gifts, like healing, either. However, miracles will follow the believers, and if the scriptures are any indication, it's hard to keep witnesses quiet, lol. Their miracles may be published.

More than just alms.
Jesus healed and told them not to tell anyone.

“And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man.”

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 12:52 pm**

Comanchero wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 12:35 pm
4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 10:09 am
JohnnyL wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 9:56 am
Hmm... There's this, and then on the Mall thread someone complaining about how wrong it is to ask others to show their alms that were given in secret... Which is the correct answer?
Alms is money or food given to poor people.

I think you are talking about how I said you (or was it someone else) were trying to catch Shawn in hypocrisy. But surely you can see how when Jesus told us to give money and food to poor people in secret, he meant it, and it goes against him to require we confess our alms just for the sake of not looking like a hypocrite in others' eyes?

I don't think people should be bragging about spiritual gifts, like healing, either. However, miracles will follow the believers, and if the scriptures are any indication, it's hard to keep witnesses quiet, lol. Their miracles may be published.
More than just alms.
Jesus healed and told them not to tell anyone.

“And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man.”

True, but he also told some to declare it (see Luke 8:26-39). This was apparently determined by the circumstances. And after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles were allowed to declare their witness of the miracles Jesus had performed. Acts 1:8 and Acts 2:22-24.

I'm not aware of a similar standard for alms, with the Lord saying to declare them publicly. I could be wrong.

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 1:00 pm**

Comanchero wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 12:35 pm
4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 10:09 am
JohnnyL wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 9:56 am
Hmm... There's this, and then on the Mall thread someone complaining about how wrong it is to ask others to show their alms that were given in secret... Which is the correct answer?
Alms is money or food given to poor people.

I think you are talking about how I said you (or was it someone else) were trying to catch Shawn in hypocrisy. But surely you can see how when Jesus told us to give money and food to poor people in secret, he meant it, and it goes against him to require we confess our alms just for the sake of not looking like a hypocrite in others' eyes?

I don't think people should be bragging about spiritual gifts, like healing, either. However, miracles will follow the believers, and if the scriptures are any indication, it's hard to keep witnesses quiet, lol. Their miracles may be published.
More than just alms.
Jesus healed and told them not to tell anyone.

“And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man.”

Jesus has a sense of humor. Even if the leper was discreet and told no one, people would notice. Jesus did not expect the man to lie. And it would be near impossible for any man to withhold such joy. He was protecting the man from cynics that would not believe him.

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 4:57 pm**

Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 12th, 2023, 11:49 pm I'm seeing that I didn't catch all of the weird formatting pdf c&p has a tendency toward. Hopefully, it's readable anyway. I guess I could have screenshotted the story.

No offense but these dont qualify as first hand experience. You are referring to a story written by someone else. You didnt experience these miracles therefore you have no knowledge of whether they really happened or are indeed just a story. What I would like to hear is actual, firsthand experiences from the community on this forum.

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 5:09 pm**

Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:16 pm
Sunain wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 2:09 pm
nightlight wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 9:53 am Good for Holland

Teaching that there are two separate healing types, one of faith...and one of priesthood, is an excellent microcosm of what's wrong

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 8:20 am Don't you mean "exercise faith in christ" rather than "exercise faith in the priesthood"? What does that even mean?
Many people don't believe in the power of the priesthood to heal. There is the faith to be healed, faith that the power of the priesthood can heal, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Please give us a verifiable, first hand account of the priesthood healing. Not someone undergoing chemo and they received a blessing and four months later the cancer was gone. I want a story about grandpa getting shot in the face, dying, son gives him a blessing to be healed and grandpa stands up and continues hunt right them and there. I want some real faith promoting story. Not something about a dude in the hospital for three weeks and miraculously after then 53rd priesthood blessing (and countless drugs and medical intervention) he feels better. Oh it must have been the priesthood blessings! Arent we promised by Christ that if you have enough faith you could in fact command the dead to arise and walk? Right then and there. Bam. Your alive! So where is that faith? These dudes are claiming to be Christs right hand men on Earth. Then prove it. Show us your faith. Stop giving us these fake, faith promoting stories. Stop claiming to be Christs apostles if you dont have the faith in or the power of Christ to command the sick to be well and the dead to rise .

I posted a more detailed account quite a while back. I don't feel like being attacked so I won't say more here. But it was first hand and it was a miracle.

viewtopic.php?p=1434698#p1434698

Posted: **December 13th, 2023, 8:04 pm**

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 9:04 am They were jealous and threatened by someone who actually had power in their priesthood.

Jealous and feeling threatened. That's exactly what I thought when I first read that they told him to stop giving blessings, and I still think that. Envying a power they didn't have.

Posted: **December 14th, 2023, 11:31 am**

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 10:09 am
JohnnyL wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 9:56 am
Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:16 pm
Please give us a verifiable, first hand account of the priesthood healing. Not someone undergoing chemo and they received a blessing and four months later the cancer was gone. I want a story about grandpa getting shot in the face, dying, son gives him a blessing to be healed and grandpa stands up and continues hunt right them and there. I want some real faith promoting story. Not something about a dude in the hospital for three weeks and miraculously after then 53rd priesthood blessing (and countless drugs and medical intervention) he feels better. Oh it must have been the priesthood blessings! Arent we promised by Christ that if you have enough faith you could in fact command the dead to arise and walk? Right then and there. Bam. Your alive! So where is that faith? These dudes are claiming to be Christs right hand men on Earth. Then prove it. Show us your faith. Stop giving us these fake, faith promoting stories. Stop claiming to be Christs apostles if you dont have the faith in or the power of Christ to command the sick to be well and the dead to rise .
Hmm... There's this, and then on the Mall thread someone complaining about how wrong it is to ask others to show their alms that were given in secret... Which is the correct answer?
Alms is money or food given to poor people.

I think you are talking about how I said you (or was it someone else) were trying to catch Shawn in hypocrisy. But surely you can see how when Jesus told us to give money and food to poor people in secret, he meant it, and it goes against him to require we confess our alms just for the sake of not looking like a hypocrite in others' eyes?

I don't think people should be bragging about spiritual gifts, like healing, either. However, miracles will follow the believers, and if the scriptures are any indication, it's hard to keep witnesses quiet, lol. Their miracles may be published.

Erastothenes pretty much wants verifiable proof--a sign--that actual, true priesthood healings occur. Most people here are with him on that, if I were to guess. Yet, I have heard of some spiritual experiences--in GC talks, in testimony meeting, in Church classes. The Ensign had/ Liahona has a section dedicated to them, including priesthood blessing healings. I've heard many more, and shared many more, in private conversations. Just because one doesn't hear them, doesn't mean they don't exist. One needs to be there where/ when they're shared. Correct, signs follow the believers. So if there are no signs, what does that say about a "believer"?

Posted: **December 14th, 2023, 12:37 pm**

Fred wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 5:09 pm
Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:16 pm
Sunain wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 2:09 pm

Many people don't believe in the power of the priesthood to heal. There is the faith to be healed, faith that the power of the priesthood can heal, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Please give us a verifiable, first hand account of the priesthood healing. Not someone undergoing chemo and they received a blessing and four months later the cancer was gone. I want a story about grandpa getting shot in the face, dying, son gives him a blessing to be healed and grandpa stands up and continues hunt right them and there. I want some real faith promoting story. Not something about a dude in the hospital for three weeks and miraculously after then 53rd priesthood blessing (and countless drugs and medical intervention) he feels better. Oh it must have been the priesthood blessings! Arent we promised by Christ that if you have enough faith you could in fact command the dead to arise and walk? Right then and there. Bam. Your alive! So where is that faith? These dudes are claiming to be Christs right hand men on Earth. Then prove it. Show us your faith. Stop giving us these fake, faith promoting stories. Stop claiming to be Christs apostles if you dont have the faith in or the power of Christ to command the sick to be well and the dead to rise .
I posted a more detailed account quite a while back. I don't feel like being attacked so I won't say more here. But it was first hand and it was a miracle.

viewtopic.php?p=1434698#p1434698

Apologies as I never meant to attack you or your post. But I was looking for firsthand accounts. You know, things that actual people witnessed right then and there. Any book, movie or retelling loses credibility.

Posted: **December 14th, 2023, 12:48 pm**

Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:37 pm
Fred wrote: ↑December 13th, 2023, 5:09 pm
Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:16 pm

Please give us a verifiable, first hand account of the priesthood healing. Not someone undergoing chemo and they received a blessing and four months later the cancer was gone. I want a story about grandpa getting shot in the face, dying, son gives him a blessing to be healed and grandpa stands up and continues hunt right them and there. I want some real faith promoting story. Not something about a dude in the hospital for three weeks and miraculously after then 53rd priesthood blessing (and countless drugs and medical intervention) he feels better. Oh it must have been the priesthood blessings! Arent we promised by Christ that if you have enough faith you could in fact command the dead to arise and walk? Right then and there. Bam. Your alive! So where is that faith? These dudes are claiming to be Christs right hand men on Earth. Then prove it. Show us your faith. Stop giving us these fake, faith promoting stories. Stop claiming to be Christs apostles if you dont have the faith in or the power of Christ to command the sick to be well and the dead to rise .
I posted a more detailed account quite a while back. I don't feel like being attacked so I won't say more here. But it was first hand and it was a miracle.

viewtopic.php?p=1434698#p1434698
Apologies as I never meant to attack you or your post. But I was looking for firsthand accounts. You know, things that actual people witnessed right then and there. Any book, movie or retelling loses credibility.

She was healed instantly. I just didn't know it until she checked into the hospital, the following morning, to die as arranged by doctors earlier and upon examination, there was no trace of H1N1.

Posted: **December 14th, 2023, 2:28 pm**

Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:37 pmAny book, movie or retelling loses credibility.

So, in other words, if I saw someone raised from the dead right this instant, it might-maybe-possibly-but probably not count in your book. That's how I'm reading your insistence that miracles, healings, and raising from the dead don't happen, no matter how true they are or were, and no matter how many witnesses (including medical records).

At least, I finally figured out that you're one of the people Moroni addressed who don't believe in miracles. So, now that I know that, I will no longer provide testimony, evidence, or witnesses to great miracles I've witnessed.

Edit: Meaning I reserve the right to talk to other people on here about miracles.

Posted: **December 14th, 2023, 2:30 pm**

Fred wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:48 pm She was healed instantly. I just didn't know it until she checked into the hospital, the following morning, to die as arranged by doctors earlier and upon examination, there was no trace of H1N1.

When my oldest daughter was maybe 3 or 4 years old, she got sick. Nothing like your daughter had, but she had a fever, was lethargic, etc. I felt prompted to give her a mother's blessing, and she was instantly healed. I had doubts, and wouldn't let her go outside to play, but she was fine from the moment the blessing ended.

Posted: **December 14th, 2023, 3:48 pm**

Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 2:28 pm
Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 12:37 pmAny book, movie or retelling loses credibility.
So, in other words, if I saw someone raised from the dead right this instant, it might-maybe-possibly-but probably not count in your book. That's how I'm reading your insistence that miracles, healings, and raising from the dead don't happen, no matter how true they are or were, and no matter how many witnesses (including medical records).

At least, I finally figured out that you're one of the people Moroni addressed who don't believe in miracles. So, now that I know that, I will no longer provide testimony, evidence, or witnesses to great miracles I've witnessed.

Edit: Meaning I reserve the right to talk to other people on here about miracles.

Yes. People lie. People lie to sell books. People lie to justify faith building stories. Church leaders lie in their autobiographies to stroke their egos. Thats why i requested first hand, i was there incidences.

Posted: **December 14th, 2023, 3:59 pm**

I have heard of several instances. I wasn't there so I have to take their word for it. In my case, there are medical records as proof. But if God never answers prayers, what is the point in asking? My dad told me no many times, but he also said yes many times.

Posted: **December 14th, 2023, 5:11 pm**

Erastothenes wrote: ↑December 14th, 2023, 3:48 pm People lie. People lie to sell books. People lie to justify faith building stories. Church leaders lie in their autobiographies to stroke their egos.

Sadly, this is 100% true.

Posted: **December 16th, 2023, 4:23 pm**

Mamabear wrote: ↑December 11th, 2023, 6:53 pm Lol.

“Mormon temple rituals key to retaining younger members, LDS leader says”

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... unger-mem/

The temple ordinances have changed so much to become almost unreconizable to what they were when I joined the church in 1972. Almost unrecognizable?!

Posted: **December 16th, 2023, 6:46 pm**

Isn't there a scripture somewhere in D&C where the Lord explains why He gave the PSRs POWER to heal the sick, cause the deaf to hear, the blind to see, and all manner of miracles as a sign to others that they are of God and not to boast of themselves?

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