LDS Freedom Forum

nightlight wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 6:35 pm God the Father... a sinner & liar, who needs His Son to save Him

No

If God fell , we would not be

Do you believe that you are without end or beginning?

hideki wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 2:52 am
Am I correct in my opinion that Adam is Heavenly Father?

If so, there is a contradiction in that Adam, the heavenly father, is the same person as Michael, the child of the heavenly father in a previous life.

Jehovah and Michael created this earth and its creatures.
This is interpreted as a joint work of Heavenly Father and Jehovah.
This would not be strange.

And at the time of the redemption of Jesus Christ, Adam (Michael) came to support him.
This, too, is not strange.

Adam was 930 years old at his death, Gen. 5:5 (Moses 6:12).
This contradicts doctrine.
Heavenly Father, who had been resurrected, never died a physical death again.

But if there is a doctrine that is not understood, that Heavenly Father becomes Adam, the first man, then Adam may have experienced physical death.

I am not a student of BY AGT by any means, I only know what I've been told. to that end, I would say that I see the Father as Jehovah as Michael as Adam. Note I said that most are titles. Likely none are real names. No where does it say Michael is anyone's child/son. an to be clear Joseph taught in his doctrine that Elohim is not the father but the head god of all the gods that gave Michael, Jehovah the task of creating this earth. So, I don't see any issues with the concept.

As far as physical death, I must admit people on here and in LDS or even Christians don't have a basis for understanding the concept that Nephi describes as "condescension". So, I see many posts abut god not being able to die? Wow, that would BTW mean Jesus wasn't god before he came here wouldn't it? Which we know is not true. And what about the "souls" Abraham talks of being here and in the premortal council and called the Great and Noble ones? Souls are body and spirit. Celestial souls cannot die, yet they come to this earth and die?

The answer is simple. In "condescension" a celestial soul, a god, an angel or a citizen of celestial temporarily leaves their body. It does not die. The lay it down, like sleeping and descend to this mortality or another mortality. The give up their celestial position, but only briefly to aid others in obtaining immortality and eternal life. Then they pick it back up. Like us taking a nap or playing a video game or like you hear of others in vision like King Lamoni, or Jesus in the desert or Moses 40 days or others in BoM that lay down, seemingly dead, but alive in another realm being quickened or transported. Jesus did not descend to come here, he condescended. He gave up being god for a while and became a man. When he died and was resurrected he picked back up his celestial body. I don't claim to know at what point that happened, perhaps after he "returned to his father" and could be touched.

As far as silly comments below, like we can only die once. I would say the concept of there not being eternal, ongoing progression from the beginning of time is in my opinion weak sauce excuses for not accepting that we lived before and will live after and will not be necessarily confined to a single level of glory forever. I accept that is what Oaks said in GC in October and posted else where that Joseph clearly taught eternal progression and not being stuck in any glory forever; whether or not you wish to accept a form of MMP as the method. I don't think we need to get into MMP on the thread of AGT and there is another active thread on it at this time.

BenMcCrea wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:03 am

hideki wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 2:52 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:35 pm I know only one thing about AGT, the one thing the Lord revealed to me on 28 June 2023. That Adam is the Father and is OT Jehovah. I had a difficult time accepting it. After 3 times I agreed to consider it. The very next day (29th) the Lord spoke to me out of the blue seemingly as I was preparing to drive to Idaho and Utah and told me if I wasn't going to fully accept his revelations that he felt no need to bring me any more. So, after that fourth input, I accept that Adam is the Father.

Interesting as as much as 3 years before he had told me that everyone in the premortal council has to have an earthly mortality. That all have some "skin in the game". I felt at the time he was referring only to the third part that Fielding and Bruce R said wouldn't get bodies. But, I guess the Lord really meant what he said back then and that includes the father (who I know as Jehovah of the OT, I add OT as I accept that after the atonement Jesus is also, Son, Father, Christ and has title of Jehovah now).

I cannot vouch for anything else in BY's doctrine as that is the ONLY revelation I have received on it. And though I believe it, I am left hanging. But I no long have much faith in Bruce or the others that blatantly say it is wrong or worse feel that those who believe and talk about it should be forced out of the church!. Though I surely don't preach it and feel odd even about mentioning it on FF as I was against it for many, many years in my own mind.

This is an automatic translation.
Thank you for sharing your experience with us.
Am I correct in my opinion that Adam is Heavenly Father?

If so, there is a contradiction in that Adam, the heavenly father, is the same person as Michael, the child of the heavenly father in a previous life.

Jehovah and Michael created this earth and its creatures.
This is interpreted as a joint work of Heavenly Father and Jehovah.
This would not be strange.

And at the time of the redemption of Jesus Christ, Adam (Michael) came to support him.
This, too, is not strange.

Adam was 930 years old at his death, Gen. 5:5 (Moses 6:12).
This contradicts doctrine.
Heavenly Father, who had been resurrected, never died a physical death again.

But if there is a doctrine that is not understood, that Heavenly Father becomes Adam, the first man, then Adam may have experienced physical death.

You can’t die twice or repeated times. Adam never died. He sloughed off the mortal matter and returned to glory.

untrue, not doctrinally sound. Provide a canonized basis for this statement, that you cannot die twice. Sounds like a James Bond thing or Fielding or McConkie. And where does it say Adam never died. Also non-doctrinally sound in anyone's doctrine. he died mortally, that is clear, everyone in the premortal council gets born and everyone born dies, all in this creative experience. Yet as you say, it is true he rose and "sloughed off" his mortal body returning from his "condescension" to more glory than he had before.

In KFD, Joseph clarifies teaching in the D&C and talks about how all our leaders progress. Jehovah becomes Elohim, the son becomes the father, etc....

ransomme wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:40 am Brigham's AGT is demonstrably false. It's absurdly false.

Proof #1, Adam fell. God would have creased being God right then and there.

I'm not going to argue with you again as you have your own views, but I will say that this isn't true and is taking scripture out of context. God acting as god in a celestial setting is not the same as going through experiences to help lower level beings progress. If what you say is true then the same is true for Jesus. According to John Jesus grew from grace-to-grace to fullness but did not have the fullness at first. He learned and grew. If he didn't know all then he could not have lived laws as a child that he never yet knew, and would be in same boat as Adam. Yet we know he was and still is god. Think about your comments on stuff like this in a broader context and you will find and then be able to resolve the apparent discongruities.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 7:18 am We have a Mother and Father in Heaven. They have many spirit children and infinite creations. Adam, while a creator in his own right, is not our spiritual creator or Father.

You bring up a very good point. In OT, NT and BoM, it says that the Father is Jesus father. It never says he is our father. Now Jesus claimed Jehovah as Jews father, but he made the same claim for Adam and for Abraham. so, we get some figurative mixed into literal discussions.

I accept what you said here. We, well those progressed beings that are "elect" are literal offspring of eternal mother and father, the "souls" in Abraham 3. Those great and noble ones. However, also in this creation are humans that were "spirits" in Abraham, they are not yet literal offspring of heavenly mother and father as they are not yet "souls" they are discussed in D&C 129 as the angels that don't have bodies. These are children of god figuratively as they are already the children of Christ. Lastly, are the "intelligences" Abraham saw, some or all of the "third part" who struggled with following Jesus' plan. they are offered to become children of god or Christ if they accept him as their father. Jesus says some will choose to be children of "devil" and have him as their father, again figurative as Lucifer will not suddenly father them literally.

Scriptures clearly say that Jesus is the Firstborn of the Father. It does not say we are second borns. and when it does and it talks of spiritual creation vs. earthly fathers, it is usually only about "god" not the father or the son. Given there are many celestial families, it is likely our literal parents (those again that have progressed to being celestial offspring condescending to come here) likely have the Father only as the father of this creation not celestial offspring.

One thing I have been taught by the spirit is that everyone one in the premortal council gets a body. At the time (3 years ago), I felt this teaching was meant for me to accept that the third part get bodies. and that the LDS definition of first and second estate were a bit twisted and made up by Fielding et al. But, then on 28 June 2023 when the Lord said that the Father came here as Adam it brought this earlier teaching to me to really feel like "duh". Even then I had a hard time accepting it due to my background and lack of trust in BY teachings. I guess I was wrong.

I think one of the key things people don't wish to grasp is that this creation or period or earth (not the globe) from Adam to the end of the millennium or judgement is one of many such efforts or missions or tasks (see KFD). so, everyone involved was in the council. the newbies "intelligences" and the leaders both the great ones and the noble ones. All participate fully. And everything here is about this creation. that includes the atonement's scope, the definition of father, god, etc.... So, there are no late comers, i.e. humans not in the council. And no one gets to beg out, all must get a body and partake. I guess that includes the Father and the son, and if Alaris et al. chime in they would say the Holy Ghost as well.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 7:56 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:40 am Brigham's AGT is demonstrably false. It's absurdly false.

Proof #1, Adam fell. God would have creased being God right then and there.

I'm not going to argue with you again as you have your own views, but I will say that this isn't true and is taking scripture out of context. God acting as god in a celestial setting is not the same as going through experiences to help lower level beings progress. If what you say is true then the same is true for Jesus. According to John Jesus grew from grace-to-grace to fullness but did not have the fullness at first. He learned and grew. If he didn't know all then he could not have lived laws as a child that he never yet knew, and would be in same boat as Adam. Yet we know he was and still is god. Think about your comments on stuff like this in a broader context and you will find and then be able to resolve the apparent discongruities.

I've searched and pondered long on this, about YHWH, and asked.

Jesus being YHWH is illustrated plainly in the scriptures for all who look. In and by the Spirit these things were made manifest. It was shown in text, in pattern, in names, in duties, in mind and in heart.

But to put it more plainly for you, Adam brought death and serves His Lord Jesus the Messiah.
1 Corinthians 15
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

ransomme wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 9:53 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 7:56 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 4:40 am Brigham's AGT is demonstrably false. It's absurdly false.

Proof #1, Adam fell. God would have creased being God right then and there.

I'm not going to argue with you again as you have your own views, but I will say that this isn't true and is taking scripture out of context. God acting as god in a celestial setting is not the same as going through experiences to help lower level beings progress. If what you say is true then the same is true for Jesus. According to John Jesus grew from grace-to-grace to fullness but did not have the fullness at first. He learned and grew. If he didn't know all then he could not have lived laws as a child that he never yet knew, and would be in same boat as Adam. Yet we know he was and still is god. Think about your comments on stuff like this in a broader context and you will find and then be able to resolve the apparent discongruities.

I've searched and pondered long on this, about YHWH, and asked.

Jesus being YHWH is illustrated plainly in the scriptures for all who look. In and by the Spirit these things were made manifest. It was shown in text, in pattern, in names, in duties, in mind and in heart.

But to put it more plainly for you, Adam brought death and serves His Lord Jesus the Messiah.
1 Corinthians 15
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

I accept Jesus is Jehovah.......... my point is he earned it or obtained it grace-for-grace. What you're quoting is not about Jehovah. It is just that Jesus is the first resurrected and BTW it doesn't say Adam was the first to die because he wasn't (Abel died first) it says "by man came death". So, becoming man (earthly man) brings death as sure as taxes. And surely as you say, Jesus' made path for us to be resurrected, earning him the right of Jehovah. but in his life (before corinthians was written) he clearly taught that his father was Jehovah and they were not (yet) to worship him or even call him good as at that time he said only his father was good.

This is an automatic translation.
Thank you all.

Godhead' is a group of three beings, united in thought.
At the top is Heavenly Father.
Heavenly Father is God exalted from man to Heavenly Father.
Exaltation means to be fully God with a glorified resurrection body.

Jehovah is the firstborn of Heavenly Father.
As a member of the "Godhead," Jehovah is perfect and divine in His role.
Jehovah was born as a baby in a physical body on our earth.
Jehovah is Jesus Christ, Creator, Redeemer, Savior, and Judge.
Jesus Christ resurrected and became fully God with a glorified resurrection body.

The Holy Ghost is our brother.
As a member of the "Godhead," the Holy Ghost is perfect and divine in His role.
The Holy Ghost fulfills His role in the spirit body alone.
The Holy Ghost will eventually gain a resurrection body. And He will become the perfect God with a glorified resurrection body.

Those who are resurrected to the state of the Celestial Glory will learn and experience much more and progress and become gods.
The prophets teach that one must undergo all kinds of trials and tribulations to be exalted.
We do not know the mechanics or process of this learning and experience.
It is not taught, just as we do not know the mechanics and process of the Lord's redemption.

"Perfect" means unimpeachable in God's eyes.

“Mortality is a school of suffering and trials.
We are here that we may be educated in a school of suffering and of fiery trials, which school was necessary for Jesus, our elder brother, who, the scriptures tell us, was made perfect through suffering [see Hebrews 2:10].
It is necessary that we suffer in all things, that we may be qualified and worthy to rule and govern all things, even as our Father in heaven and his eldest son Jesus. (Millennial Star, Dec. 1, 1851, 363.)” (Lorenzo Snow, The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p. 156.)

Bruce R. McConkie said:
“God is not progressing in knowledge, truth, virtue, wisdom, or any of the attributes of godliness. ...
He is progressing in the sense that his creations increase, his dominions expand, his spirit offspring multiply, and more kingdoms are added to his domains.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1st ed., 221)

“Unfortunately some have supposed that the Almighty is not almighty, that he has not attained the high ultimates of perfection and power here named, and that somehow he is still learning new truths and progressing in knowledge and wisdom.
Such a view comes from a total misconception of what eternal progress really is.
The simple, unadorned fact is that God is omnipotent and supreme.
He has all power, all knowledge, all truth, and all wisdom, and is everywhere present by the power of his Spirit.
In him every good and wholesome attribute dwells independently and in its eternal fulness and perfection.
There is no charity, no love, no honesty, no integrity, no justice, mercy, or judgment, that he does not possess in the absolute and total and complete sense of the word.
If there were some truth he did not know, some power that was denied him, some attribute of perfection still to be obtained, he would not be God; and if progression lay ahead for him where his character, perfections, or attributes are concerned, then retrogression would also be a possibility; and by falsely so assuming, we would soon find ourselves mired in such a morass of philosophical absurdities that we would be as far removed from saving truth as are the pagans and heathens.” ("The Promised Messiah: The First Coming of Christ" p.19)

The notion that our God is still progressing in knowledge-that he is gaining new truths-seems to have come from a faulty interpretation of the Prophet Joseph Smith's King Follett Sermon and a misunderstanding of what is meant by eternal progression, God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms expand and his dominions multiply (see D&C 132:31, 63; Moses 1:39).

What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence.
My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory.
He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself.
So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. (Joseph Smith "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" p.348)

Joseph Smith described our Father's progression in the King Follett Sermon.
Speaking as Christ might speak, the Prophet said: "I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence.
My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory.
He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself."
The Prophet therefore concluded: "So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children" (Teachings, pp. 347-48)
The idea that God progresses in any manner other than through the exaltation of his children is without scriptural support.
'I believe that God knows all things," President Joseph Fielding Smith testified, "and that his understanding is perfect, not I relative.'
I have never seen or heard of any revealed fact to the contrary.
I believe that our Heavenly Father and his Son Jesus Christ are perfect.
I offer no excuse for the simplicity of my faith." (Doctrines of Salvation 1:8.)

Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said:
“PROGRESSION BY INCREASING HIS CREATIONS.
The Book of Moses informs us that the great work of the Father is in creating worlds and peopling them, and "there is no end to my works, neither to my words," he says, "For behold, this is my work and my glory-to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man," and in this is his progression.

Commenting on this the Prophet Joseph Smith has said: "What did Jesus do?
Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence, My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same [that is Christ must do the same]; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory.
He will then take a higher exaltation, and I [Christ] will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself, So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children."

Do you not see that it is in this manner that our Eternal Father is progressing?
Not by seeking knowledge which he does not have, for such a thought cannot be maintained in the light of scripture. It is not through ignorance and learning hidden truth that he progresses, for if there are truths which he does not know, then these things are greater than he, and this cannot be. Why can't we learn wisdom and believe what the Lord has revealed?

OTIONS ABOUT GOD'S PROGRESSION.
Where has the Lord ever revealed to us that he is lacking in knowledge?
That he is still learning new truth; discovering new laws that are unknown to him?
I think this kind of doctrine is very dangerous.
I don't know where the Lord has ever declared such a thing.
It is not contained in any revelation that I have read.
Man's opinion unaided by the revelations of the Lord, does not make it so.

PERFECTION OF GOD NOT "RELATIVE."
I believe that God knows all things and that
his understanding is perfect, not "relative."
I have never seen or heard of any revealed fact to the contrary. I believe that our Heavenly Father and his Son Jesus Christ are perfect. I offer no excuse for the simplicity of my faith. ...

The Prophet says: "If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that he had a Father also."
Then he asks: "Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son?"
He points out that the Savior declared that he would do the things his Father did, that is, lay down his life and take it again.
Let me ask, are we not taught that we as sons of God may become like him?
Is not this a glorious thought?
Yet we have to pass through mortality and receive the resurrection and
then go on to perfection just as our Father did before us.

The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?

HOW GOD IS FROM ETERNITY TO ETERNITY.
However, the thing that seems so puzzling is the statement that God is "the same yesterday, today and forever"; that he is "from all eternity to all eternity." Well, is not this true, and is there any conflict with the thought that he has passed through the same states that we are destined to do?

From eternity to eternity means from the spirit existence through the probation which we are in, and then back again to the eternal existence which will follow.
Surely this is everlasting, for when we receive the resurrection, we will never die. We all existed in the first eternity.
I think I can say of myself and others, we are from eternity; and we will be to eternity everlasting, if we receive the exaltation. The intelligent part of man was never created but always existed.
That is true of each of us as well as it is of God, yet we are born sons and daughters of God in the spirit and are destined to exist forever.
Those who become like God will also be from eternity to eternity.” (Doctrine of Salvation 1)

Commentary on "eternity to all eternity."
viewtopic.php?p=1441953#p1441953


“We can still improve, we are made for that purpose, our capacities are organized to expand until we can receive into our comprehension celestial knowledge and wisdom, and to continue worlds without end. ... f men can understand and receive it, mankind are organized to receive intelligence until they become perfect in the sphere they are appointed to fill, which is far ahead of us at present. When we use the term perfection, it applies to man in his present condition, as well as the heavenly beings. We are now, or may be, as perfect in our sphere as God and angels are in theirs, but the greatest intelligence in existence can continually ascend to greater heights of perfection.
We are created for the express purpose of increase. There are none, correctly organized, but can increase from birth to old age. What is there that is not ordained after [such] an eternal Law of existence? It is the Deity within us that causes increase.” (Brigham Young, sermon preached in the old tabernacle, Salt Lake City, 13 June 1852,)

“Progression in eternity is to be along well defined lines; and thus the inheritors of any specific order or kingdom of glory may advance forever without attaining the particular exaltation belonging to a different kingdom or order.” (James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, p.269)

“If in time those who enter the telestial glory may progress till they reach the stage in which the celestial is in now-then they are in celestial glory, are they not, even if the celestial has advanced? That being the case (I state this for the argument only, for it is not true), then they partake of all the blessings which are now celestial. That means that they become gods, have exaltation, gain the fulness of the Father, and receive a continuation of the ‘seeds forever.’ The Lord, however, has said that these blessings, which are celestial blessings, they may never have; they are barred forever!” (Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.31-32)

“Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the ‘continuation of the seeds forever.’ They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain ‘separately and singly’ forever.” (Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.287)

“At the end of the millennium, and in the morning of this second resurrection, those shall come forth who merit telestial bodies, and they shall be rewarded accordingly. Finally, in the afternoon of the second resurrection, those who ‘remain filthy still,’ those who having been raised in immortality are judged and found wholly wanting, those whom we call sons of perdition, shall be cast out with Lucifer and his angels to suffer the vengeance of eternal fire forever. (D. & C. 76:25-49, 81-113; 88:101-102; 2 Ne. 9:14-16.)” (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol.1, p.196-197)

“He who enters the celestial glory has the advantage over all others. He dwells in the presence of the Father and the Son. His teachers are the highest The others will receive all they learn from the celestial to the terrestrial, from the terrestrial to the telestial. They get it second hand and third had, and how can they ever hope to grow as fast as those who drink from the fountain head. Again, those who come forth in the celestial glory with celestial bodies have a body that is more refined. It is different. The very fibre and texture of the celestial body is more pure and holy than a telestial or terrestrial body, and a celestial body alone can endure celestial Glory . . . When we have a celestial body it will be suited to the celestial conditions and a telestial body could not endure celestial glory. It would be torment and affliction to them.
I have not read in the scripture where there will be another resurrection where we can obtain a celestial body for a terrestrial body.
What we receive in the resurrection will be ours forever and ever.” (Melvin J. Ballard, Three Degrees of Glory, p.31)

“On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood.
This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon.
Our enemies have criticized us for believing in this.
Our reply is that this lofty concept in no way diminishes God the Eternal Father.
He is the Almighty. He is the Creator and Governor of the universe.
He is the greatest of all and will always be so.
But just as any earthly father wishes for his sons and daughters every success in life, so I believe our Father in Heaven wishes for his children that they might approach him in stature and stand beside him resplendent in godly strength and wisdom.” (Don’t Drop the Ball By President Gordon B. Hinckley General Conference October 1994).

“We are here that we may be educated in a school of suffering and of fiery trials, which school was necessary for Jesus, our Elder Brother, who, the scriptures tell us, ‘was made perfect through suffering.’
It is necessary that we suffer in all things, that we may be qualified and worthy to rule, and govern all things, even as our Father in Heaven and His eldest son, Jesus” (Snow, Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, 119).

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation.
But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them.
It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Smith, Teachings, 348).

“Our grand objective, like the Savior’s is to become like our Father.
The grand [ultimate destiny] of our lives is up yonder in the other life.
I had not been in the Church very long, three or four years, when it was revealed to me most perfectly, and as distinctively as any principle was ever revealed to any man, the [ultimate destiny] of man’s existence;. ... and that was this: As Man now is, God once was.
Now we can understand that. ...We have our divinity within ourselves; we have immortality within ourselves; our spiritual organism is immortal; it cannot be destroyed; it cannot be annihilated.
We will live from all eternity to all eternity.
We are the children of God and are His offspring. ... (Deseret Evening News, Apr. 7, 1899, 10.)” (Lorenzo Snow, The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p. 5-6).

“But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. ...
He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245 From Franklin D. Richards Journal)

The Holy Ghost lives a "same or a similar" life to the life of Jesus Christ.

I know that there are opinions like the one you describe.
It is possible that this opinion is correct, including the evidence.
However, I believe the following.

The prophets teach that one must undergo all kinds of trials and tribulations to be exalted.
We do not know the mechanics or process of this learning and experience.
It is not taught, just as we do not know the mechanics and process of the Lord's redemption.
We do not know the mechanics or process of this learning and experience. It is not taught, just as we do not know the mechanics and process of the Lord's redemption.

We learn and experience, but we do not need to return to spirit body only to become "Holy Ghost" in order for us to become God.
We just need to learn and experience that role in the resurrection body.
Jesus Christ, too, was born only once in this life in a physical body.

In the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are resurrected, our bodies will never die again.
Resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with the body in an immortal state, no longer subject to disease or death.
Because of the Fall of Adam and Eve, we are subject to physical death, which is the separation of the spirit from the body.
Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected and saved from physical death (see 1 Corinthians 15:22).
Resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with the body in an immortal state, no longer subject to disease or death.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Although it may be true that one cannot find in the scriptures a definitive statement that one may not progress from one degree of glory to another, there is certainly nothing in the scriptures that states that such progression is possible.

Elder Bruce. R. McConkie said:
They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere. (The Seven Deadly Heresies June 1, 1980 at fireside in BYU Marriot Center)

Joseph F. Smith said:
Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for. (Improvement Era 14 November 1910: 87)

Reincarnation or Multiple Mortal Probations
Daybell and Vallow allegedly claimed to have been prominent spiritual figures in past mortal lives. But reincarnation is not a Church doctrine, it violates the scriptures, and teaching it has been grounds for excommunication.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/hom ... probations

hideki wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 1:47 am
“Progression in eternity is to be along well defined lines; and thus the inheritors of any specific order or kingdom of glory may advance forever without attaining the particular exaltation belonging to a different kingdom or order.” (James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, p.269)




“But the Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body, as the Savior did or as God did or the gods before them took bodies; for the Savior says the work that my Father did do I also. ...
He took himself a body and then laid down his life that he might take it up again.” (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 382)

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245 From Franklin D. Richards Journal)

Two thoughts. First I find the words of Talmage laughably silly and nearly incorrect. I suppose in a telestial level (plan of salvation 101 or plan of salvation for dummies) it is accurate enough to get one into the telestial glory, which is the goal of most humans in this probation. But definitely is NOT what Joseph taught and isn't what BY, HCK and others understood. And I see no revelation to make his case. There is no canon to support this or any scripture from modern era. Now, if we take OT and old BoM (pre-Jesus atonement) where only lower laws were taught and the entire concept of exaltation is missing and all discussions or support for premortal existence and the only results of this mortality were judgement and the reward was either heaven or hell. why sure you could claim no advancing.

but that is not what modern LDS scriptures teach. it teaches of more than heaven and hell and a premortal spirit and even some thoughts of premortal souls and of heavenly parents, etc... In those scriptures, nothing Talmage says here is offered. If anyone disagrees, show it.

Secondly I like the quotes you provide about the HG having a body and all. It is not an area that I'm acquainted with or have researched but, as I said Alaris has done an in depth study of it.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 6:23 am FYI
The Adam-God theory was also taught in the temple. I believe at the veil. So it was certainly “doctrinal” whether people want to believe it or not. How can you get more of an official teaching than something that was taught in the temple?

I personally don’t believe it, the way it was taught. Adam may have been a god, but not God the Father. He was part of the divine council, I would assume.

CaptainM says that Jesus Christ is the only Father per the BOM. The BOM does call Jesus the eternal Father. Then in John 8 Jesus says he is not the Father and he does the work of his Father. What does Joseph say?

JSP may 4th 1842
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

Pertaining to the order of Adam which have been prepared for the Church of Jesus Christ, so the saints can come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.

To get to Elohim don’t we have to go through Jesus who is acting in behalf of Adam? Joseph said they are Adam’s orders and blessings.

Back to the book of Thomas 15
(15) Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 1:10 pm Pertaining to the order of Adam which have been prepared for the Church of Jesus Christ, so the saints can come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.

I would slightly disagree there. The Church of the Firstborn is the Church of the Father, Adam.

Abraham 1
3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

The Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God pertains to the Church of Jesus Christ.

The Priesthood after the Order of the Ancient of Days/the Father pertains to the Church of the Firstborn.

This is an automatic translation.

Question: Was the "Adam-God" theory ever taught as part of the temple endowment ceremony as something called "the lecture at the veil"?
Brigham Young attempted to introduce the concept of Adam-God into the endowment, as far as it had been revealed to him and he was able to interpret it.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... veil%22%3F

On 1 February 1877, when Young's lecture was first given, Woodruff wrote in his journal: "W Woodruff Presided and Officiated as El[ohim].
I dressed in pure white Doe skin from head to foot to officiate in the Priest Office, white pants vest & C[oat?] the first Example in any Temple of the Lord in this last dispensation.
Sister Lucy B Young also dressed in white in officiating as Eve.
Pr[e]sident [Young] was present and deliverd a lecture at the veil some 30 Minuts."
The copy of the veil lecture which Nuttall describes is not presently available. But on 7 February Nuttall summarized in his diary additions to the lecture which Young made at his residence in Nuttall's presence:

We did so and forgot all, and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned.
We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve, how they were formed and etc.
Some think he was made like an adobe and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life, for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return."
Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this earth.
He was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth.
Adam was an immortal being when he came on this earth; He had lived on an earth similar to ours; he had received the Priesthood and the keys thereof, and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation, and was crowned with glory, immortality and eternal lives, and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness, and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth.
And Eve our common mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world.

And when this earth was organized by Elohim, Jehovah and Michael, who is Adam our common father, Adam and Eve had the privilege to continue the work of progression, consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in, and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this kingdom our earth[,] he came to it, and slept and forgot all and became like an infant child. ...

Father Adam's oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family, is father Adam's first begotten in the spirit world, who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written.

Brigham Young used the term "Adam" as a title for both Adam Sr. meaning Heavenly Father and Adam Jr. meaning the first man of our earth.
Brigham Young and others have been inconsistent in using the term "Father Adam" to refer to Adam Sr. as Heavenly Father and "Adam" or "Father Adam" to refer to Adam Jr. as Michael, as in "Father Adam. Brigham Young and others have been inconsistent in using the term "Father Adam" to refer to Adam Sr. as Heavenly Father and "Adam" or "Father Adam" to refer to both Adam.

Elohim, Jehovah and Michael

Elohim is Heavenly Father, Jehovah is Jesus Christ, and Michael is Adam.
In other words, the Adam after this statement is Adam Jr. who is Michael.
And the Adam before this sentence is the Elohim, Adam Sr.
And Eve means Heavenly Mother.

Father Adam's oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family, is father Adam's first begotten in the spirit world, who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written.

This "Father Adam" is the Elohim, Adam Sr.


However, with this interpretation, the following sentence seems to create a problem.

We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve, how they were formed and etc.
Some think he was made like an adobe and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life, for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return."
Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this earth.

It seems to me that this sentence speaks of Adam (Michael).
This Adam could be interpreted as referring to Michael, and the Adam after this sentence could also be interpreted as referring to Michael.
And this Adam (Michael) can be interpreted as being spoken of as a heavenly father.

Elohim, Jehovah and Michael

The question then arises as to who is the Elohim in this sentence.

Latter-day Saints accept that Elohim is God the Father and Yahweh (Jehovah) refers to His Son, Jesus Christ.
However, that understanding has not been consistently so from the beginning, but has been taught accordingly since the official publication of the "A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" in 1916 at the beginning of the 20th century.

Gospel Classics: The Father and the Son
A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Brigham Young may have been using Elohim as a generic term for divine beings.
This would lead to the interpretation that the Adam mentioned by Brigham Young in these texts all refer to Michael.

Brigham Young said:
When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him.
He helped to make and organize this world.
He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do.
Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. ...
When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. ...
It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. (April 9, 1852-22nd Annual General Conference Journal of Discourses vol.1 p.50-51)

What does this blue text mean?
Does this sentence describe "Elohim" as one being?
Please tell me because I do not understand English.

I still can't understand the results.

hideki wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 4:00 pm

Elohim, Jehovah and Michael

The question then arises as to who is the Elohim in this sentence.

Elohim is not the name of Heavenly Father, but a general term for divine beings.
In the bible many things are referred to as Elohim. These include evil spirits, false gods, and even in some cases powerful kings.

However Jehovah is always referred to as the single Elohim which is more powerful than all the other Elohim. There is no Elohim like Jehovah.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 4:10 pm

hideki wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 4:00 pm

Elohim, Jehovah and Michael

The question then arises as to who is the Elohim in this sentence.

Elohim is not the name of Heavenly Father, but a general term for divine beings.
In the bible many things are referred to as Elohim. These include evil spirits, false gods, and even in some cases powerful kings.

This is an automatic translation.
Thank you.
I have just studied that.

Latter-day Saints accept that Elohim is God the Father and Yahweh (Jehovah) refers to His Son, Jesus Christ.
However, that understanding has not been consistently so from the beginning, but has been taught accordingly since the official publication of the "A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" in 1916 at the beginning of the 20th century.

Gospel Classics: The Father and the Son
A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

The 1835 "Lectures on Faith" and the 1838 first revelation began to emphasize that Heavenly Father and the Son are two separate persons.
The Heavenly Father is a spirit being full of glory and power, and the Son is the same as the Father's heart in that He is flesh and bone.
As for names, both Elohim and Jehovah are the God of the Old Covenant and God the Heavenly Father.

In order to achieve a certain degree of harmony and to contain outside criticism, church leaders carefully reconstructed the theology of the church in the 20th century. This resulted in a public statement in 1916.
The statement was organized and drafted by Talmage and submitted to the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles, based on, among other things, J.E. Talmage's "Jesus the Christ," published in 1915, which confirmed that Jehovah is Jesus.

hideki wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 4:34 pm This is an automatic translation.
Thank you.
Brigham Young was most likely using Elohim as a generic term for divine beings.
I have just studied that.

Latter-day Saints accept that Elohim is God the Father and Yahweh (Jehovah) refers to His Son, Jesus Christ.
However, that understanding has not been consistently so from the beginning, but has been taught accordingly since the official publication of the "A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" in 1916 at the beginning of the 20th century.

Gospel Classics: The Father and the Son
A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

The 1835 "Lectures on Faith" and the 1838 first revelation began to emphasize that Heavenly Father and the Son are two separate persons.
The Heavenly Father is a spirit being full of glory and power, and the Son is the same as the Father's heart in that He is flesh and bone.
As for names, both Elohim and Jehovah are the God of the Old Covenant and God the Heavenly Father.

In order to achieve a certain degree of harmony and to contain outside criticism, church leaders carefully reconstructed the theology of the church in the 20th century. This resulted in a public statement in 1916.
The statement was organized and drafted by Talmage and submitted to the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles, based on, among other things, J.E. Talmage's "Jesus the Christ," published in 1915, which confirmed that Jehovah is Jesus.

I personally reject most of what the LDS Church teaches about God and Christ. It is mostly based upon ideas that would support God being an eternal polygamist.
The Book of Mormon mentioned God as coming down to atone for his people not God's son.
The Lecture on Faith mention God as being composed of 2 parts, a spirit and flesh.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 1:10 pm

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 6:23 am FYI
The Adam-God theory was also taught in the temple. I believe at the veil. So it was certainly “doctrinal” whether people want to believe it or not. How can you get more of an official teaching than something that was taught in the temple?

I personally don’t believe it, the way it was taught. Adam may have been a god, but not God the Father. He was part of the divine council, I would assume.

CaptainM says that Jesus Christ is the only Father per the BOM. The BOM does call Jesus the eternal Father. Then in John 8 Jesus says he is not the Father and he does the work of his Father. What does Joseph say?

JSP may 4th 1842
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

Pertaining to the order of Adam which have been prepared for the Church of Jesus Christ, so the saints can come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.

To get to Elohim don’t we have to go through Jesus who is acting in behalf of Adam? Joseph said they are Adam’s orders and blessings.

Back to the book of Thomas 15
(15) Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

I’m not sure that I understand what you’re asking me. If you’re asking me something. Lol

Luke wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 2:04 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 1:10 pm Pertaining to the order of Adam which have been prepared for the Church of Jesus Christ, so the saints can come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.

I would slightly disagree there. The Church of the Firstborn is the Church of the Father, Adam.

Abraham 1
3 It was conferred upon me from the fathers; it came down from the fathers, from the beginning of time, yea, even from the beginning, or before the foundation of the earth, down to the present time, even the right of the firstborn, or the first man, who is Adam, or first father, through the fathers unto me.

The Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God pertains to the Church of Jesus Christ.

The Priesthood after the Order of the Ancient of Days/the Father pertains to the Church of the Firstborn.

In other words, we could say Jesus Christ is the high priest in his father’s priesthood.

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 5:15 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 1:10 pm

Wolfwoman wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 6:23 am FYI
The Adam-God theory was also taught in the temple. I believe at the veil. So it was certainly “doctrinal” whether people want to believe it or not. How can you get more of an official teaching than something that was taught in the temple?

I personally don’t believe it, the way it was taught. Adam may have been a god, but not God the Father. He was part of the divine council, I would assume.

CaptainM says that Jesus Christ is the only Father per the BOM. The BOM does call Jesus the eternal Father. Then in John 8 Jesus says he is not the Father and he does the work of his Father. What does Joseph say?

JSP may 4th 1842
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... y-1842/502

“setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings, which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.”

Pertaining to the order of Adam which have been prepared for the Church of Jesus Christ, so the saints can come up and abide in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds.

To get to Elohim don’t we have to go through Jesus who is acting in behalf of Adam? Joseph said they are Adam’s orders and blessings.

Back to the book of Thomas 15
(15) Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

I’m not sure that I understand what you’re asking me. If you’re asking me something. Lol

Nope, just sharing ideas.

nightlight wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 6:35 pm God the Father... a sinner & liar, who needs His Son to save Him

No

If God fell , we would not be

D&C 76
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

El or Eloah is the singular, Elohim is the plural. I think George Lamsa (who translated the Aramaic Peshitta OT & NT as the LT version of the Bible) described the angle that is from the Aramaic/Hebrew understanding. Let's see if I can find that. El, also is referred to in religious dictionaries & encyclopedias as "father of the gods".

OK, in George M. Lamsa's 'Old Testament Light' (1964/1978 HB), p.12, in reference to Genesis 2:7 of KJV/RSV/LT, Lamsa tells us that the first chapter is of work done by El or Elohim, which is the "universal God". But in chapter two, we read about Yahveh/Yahweh, as Lord Yahveh is the tribal God of the Hebrews, who was stronger than other gods or lords of other nations. In chapter two, God is now portrayed as a man limited in his powers & knowledge.

Page 39 touches on Genesis 11:7 where in the KJV/RSV/LT state that phrase "let US go down ...". Lamsa knowing about the Near East, being raised there, knew the culture, religion, idioms, and customs. High authorities use the plural pronoun, or "the pronoun of respect" when referring to themselves- which comes to us as "we" or "us". The authors of the Bible believed in one God only, the God of Heaven & earth. "The doctrine of the Trinity, three persons in one, was a new concept -- a Greek concept of God." Lamsa relates to Deut. 6:4 & Mark 12:29 in that the "Lord God is one Lord". "The whole system of the Jewish religion is based on the unity of God -- one God. The Eastern Christians believe in one God with 3 'attributes', instead of three persons".

So you see, the western world kind of headed off on another fork in the road. Now some will say that Joseph Smith also saw it as 3 persons, or akin to that. Sometimes, we try too hard to analyze things.


Now, as to the statement of ...
+++++++++++++++
Godhead' is a group of three beings, united in thought.
+++++++++++++++

In actuality, it is not three beings, but 3 essences (or attributes as just noted above). These three attributes are actually ancient, but sadly, many have interpreted them far beyond what they really are/were. Did you know that in the Hindu scriptures (older than the Christian, and perhaps the Jewish) that the Logos Doctrine of John 1 is shared also? It starts off as "In the beginning was the Vac/Vack/Vak ..."? And that there is a Hindu Trimurti (like the Trinity), seems to have 3 beings as well? Read on further.

Here is a clip from my TEACHING book from page 206 "Conclusion" -
++++++++
p.206/Conclusion

I add these 3 final inserts:

1) "Father, Son, and Spirit, Three in One ... as it
was the earliest expression of what the Sacred
Name of God (Logos/Gospel) means in the Christian
Religion". {Ref.1}

2) "God Himself is, in Rabbinic and later Jewish
literature, often referred to as 'The Name'
(referring to the Tetragrammaton/ Pentagrammaton/
Hebrew Name of Jesus/ IHVH/ IHSVH)". {Ref.2}

3) It is also very interesting to compare the
3 attributes of the Logos as in the AG to
the Hindu Trimurti. A)- Father- that which creates
or Brahma(n) the Creator; B)- Mother/Holy Spirit-
that which destroys/transforms/revivifies or Siva
(or Shiva) the Destroyer; and C)- Son- that which
saves/redeems or Vishnu the Preserver. These are
the exact same three attributes of this Sacred
Word or Name, that is, each of its 3 syllables/tones. {Ref.3).
++++++++

It is also found (this trinity of expression) elsewhere, such as Egyptian (IAO/YAO))- I is for Isis (Nature) which creates, A is for Apophis or Apepi which destroys, and O for Osiris, who redeems. If not mistaken, I had that in TEACHING, as well.

Then there is the one that was found later (after 2-1989) concerning the Welsh version of John 1 the Logos doctrine of John the Baptist (also referred to as the record of John). Noted in John 1/ Revelation 1:2/ D&C (CoC-RLDS 90:1c-d,3a/ LDS 93:6-8,18). Also take heed that in the D&C, John shares that Jesus was the "messenger of salvation", not actually salvation itself. And the D&C expounds that if you do not have the full record of John (which is yet to be revealed, you --->>> may not (1) understand, (2) know how, or (3) what to --->>> worship. There you go again, you thought John the Beloved was the one who shared the Logos Doctrine (John 1), or was the writer & visionary of the Book of Revelation. You seriously need to rethink that. They say, you need to give credit where credit is due. Some scholars are now questioning the assumption that John the Beloved was exiled to Patmos, had the vision, wrote it & then died there. In the Restoration, supposedly John "tarries". John the Beloved was never noted as a seer. However, Jesus shared that John the Baptist was definitely a prophet & seer & in the AG, he was (or had been) Elijah, the greatest of the Seers. The John of Book of Revelation, was John the Baptist in the Spirit Vision from his prison cell, as it stated that he was "in the spirit on the Isle of Patmos". The first main portion of John 1 was the testimony of John the Baptist, not John the Beloved.

Here is one portion about the "Triple Shouts":
+++++++++++++++++
The concept of the Christian Trinity, like the Hindu Trimurti, and many others were set as reminders of something, not stumbling blocks. The NAME/WORD/SOUND/SONIC/HARMONIC/VIBRATION/RESONANCE is relatively simple, yet complex. The ONE, is THREE, yet SEVEN. The NAME is composed of the Mystery of the 7 Vowels, blended into 3 syllables. These 3 syllables hold the very power of the 3 facets/attributes/essences/powers. Together as ONE, the 3 are Totality, for everything was created & held in check by it. IT built everything that is. The Welsh story of Creation starts off similar to John 1- "In the Beginning were the Triple Shouts"--- "Co-instantaneously with the Voice was Light, and in the Light, Form, and the Voice was in THREE Tones, THREE Vocalizations, pronounced together at the same moment."
+++++++++++++++++



Another of my notes:
As to the One, the Three, and the Seven, this is reference to the NAME (aka God). The Seven Spirits or 7 Thunders refer to the 7 Vowel Sounds aka the 7 Greek Vowels (describing it just from a Greek Gnostic perspective, but it is universal as it is referring to 7 seed sounds that are vowels not consonants such as from Sanskrit). The 7 Vowels are blended into 3 syllable Sounds, each with an assigned power that is inherent. The first is that of creation. The second is that of transformation. The 3rd is of restoring/healing/preserving/redeeming/saving.

And yet another:
One term used in L/L Research's 'The Law of One' books is very fitting. It touches on the Mystery of the 7 Vowels, sound vibration, and song of creation. Certain sounding of a few of the Hebrew or Sanskrit vowels are called "Sound-Vibration-Complexes", and they actually have or hold the power of space, time, light, and configuration. Also a mathematical correspondence is noted, as well as musical, but is understood due to certain things involved, the exact ratio cannot be measured. Also touches upon how creation sings & sympathetic resonance, and that these vowels must be "correctly vibrated". In another "Law of One" book on the energy (powers) of the Logos, as to some aspects- heals/builds/removes/destroys/transforms or if we arrange that correctly, it is 1) builds/ 2) removes-destroys-transforms/ 3) heals. It also allows contact with Intelligent Energy, sometimes resulting in "unspeakable joy". And the meaning of the Sarcophagus is explained. I bumped into L/L Research & their first book, also called 'The Ra Material' in 1988. It only helped to confirm what I had already found. In 1997 I became friends with Carla (one of the 3 involved in the project & well documented) via email. And interestingly, I found out earlier this year that my step-daughter Helen [age 28] (in Ukraine) was studying this material online & also thought highly of its content.

"The Law of ONE" books also share that it was Yahweh (an entity) who encoded this "ability" into genetics to be passed on thru the heirs or offspring of Adam.

Bull crap "doctrines" like this, are why the protestants won't take us seriously. Shame, because these things always detract from the Book of Mormon message of Christ's true doctrine.

Luke wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 2:04 pm
I would slightly disagree there. The Church of the Firstborn is the Church of the Father, Adam.

I don't accept your statement at all. Please provide a reason. You are mixing being the first born person on this earth with first born in premortal realm. The church of the Firstborn is the organization Christ leads. It is where citizens of the celestial kingdom or heirs or joint heirs with Christ fit. It doesn't fit with Adam as the first man.

Now: with AGT and Adam as the Father and from Joseph's teachings that the Father/Adam did what Jesus did before, then obviously in the past Adam held the title of Firstborn as well. So the plot thickens and in away I agree. But your scriptural logic here is flawed.

This is an automatic translation.
Thank you all.

Confirmation of common understanding of terminology.

● The proper noun and name "Adam" refers to "Michael" in the flesh.
● In Hebrew, "Adam" means "man.
● Adam" is "the first man" and refers to Adam and Eve.
● The "Man of Holiness" means "Heavenly Father.
● Other solar systems also have our Heavenly Father's "Adam the First Man," and there are numerous solar systems and numerous "Adams.

Jesus Christ is called the Last Adam or the Second Adam because he is the "first resurrected man.

1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie said:
"As Adam brought death, so Christ brought life; as Adam is the father of mortality, so Christ is the father of immortality.
And without both, mortality and immortality, man cannot work out his salvation and ascend to those heights beyond the skies where gods and angels dwell forever in eternal glory." (General Conference April 1985)

Our Heavenly Father (Elohim) was our "first man of holiness".
Thus, the Heavenly Father (Elohim) is also called Adam or Father Adam.

Those who have accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ are called children of Christ.
Therefore, Jesus Christ is also called the Father.

Adam (Michael) is also called Father Adam because he is the father (ancestors) of all mankind.