Who/What are the Beasts mentioned in Daniel and Revelations?

[Oldemandalton]

Who/What are the Beasts mentioned in Daniel and Revelations?

In the Joseph Smith translation it says that the Beast in Revelations 13 is in the likeness of kingdoms.

JST Rev. 13: 1 And I saw another sign, in the likeness of the kingdoms of the earth; a beast rise up out of the sea, and he stood upon the sand of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The First Beast is Rome

Its horns/toes are the kingdoms Rome broke into in the 5th and 6th centuries.

The Second Beast is the modern nations of old Rome, the remnant of the first beast.

The second beast (modern western civilization) made the world into the image of the first beast (ancient western civilization).
Today's modern western nations are built after the image of Rome:
A foundation in "classical" education - based on Greek philosophy.
Rome started out as a republic.
Strong military
Trade a major source of income
They love money and pleasure for its own sake.

Kingdoms for the last two thousand years have been in the shadow of Rome - from the Roman church to the "Holy Roman Empire", from the Russian Czar and German Kaiser (both variants on "Caesar"), even to the European Union founded on the "treaty of Rome". And even the great buildings draw on Roman architecture.

Daniel's four kingdoms were: Babylon - Persia - Greece – Rome.

"Babylon" in prophecy refers to worldly cities in general and Rome in particular.

By the time of the Second Coming we have a global culture, and individual kingdoms hold less power. The real power is trade, not politics. The power base is the cities, not the kings. That is why Revelation 18 goes on so much about the fall of Babylon and its traders.

Babylon is the city or the church. The Beast is the empire, the state.
The methods of Babylon are financial and religious. The methods of the Beast are political ("breaking in pieces", as Daniel put it).
The whore called Babylon rides on the back of the beast - so the financial or religious system is dependent on the political system.
The world admires the beast and follows it without joining it, whereas the world joins (commits fornication with) Babylon.
Babylon is destroyed quickly, before the Second Coming, and the Whore has already been burned before that - whereas the beast is only destroyed once Jesus returns.

How can the whore be a city, AND ALSO the organization which filters the scriptures after the apostles die (see 1 Nephi 13), AND ALSO "the great and abominable church" - a general term for anyone who does not follow Christ (see 1 Nephi 14)? Simple. The whore (the ungodly city) is the natural way that ungodly people (Revelation 17:15) organize themselves. Wherever there are ungodly people they will build a Rome or a Babylon. The word "church" just means "congregation of people".


Old Man Dalton

[lundbaek]

It seems that Revelation 13 is telling us that Satan will lay the foundation for two worldwide dictatorships, and these are the "beasts". It appears the first beast will come into full power sometime shortly after the year 2,000, although its beginning will be during the sixth seal. It is not a single dictatorship, but a coalition of nations. I think this is the new world order, and I expect it will dominate the world as a socialist or fascist dictatorship with absolute power for three-and—a—half years, "make war with the saints, and overcome them". and then self-destruct.

I think the second beast is the Gog and Magog thing, but I haven't given that much attention.

[Bridgey]

W Cleon Skousen explains it quite well (the beast being the 2 dictatorships) in his article the next 25years. I think there is a link on this forum to it. Well worth the read.

[Mark]

Here are some thoughts below for your reading pleasure OMD. We will have a tendency to assign identity of the beasts based on our own personal world views. For example Lundbaek sees this dreaded NWO formation of nations as the 1st beast. He has a world view of such so it is natural for him to do so. I see Russia as that nation with a near fatal wound that is miraculously healed and makes war with the Saints and lays seige to Jerusalem for 42 months because of my world view of the plans of communism. Notice the following thoughts in the gospel doctrine lesson I am posting that may change how we look at this issue if correct:

We are accustomed to using the word saints to refer to members of the Church, but this is not how John uses the term. Both John and Daniel use the term saints and the holy people in referring to the covenant keeping Jews who have established the temple in Jerusalem (Dan. 7:21; 8:24; 11:30-35; 12:7). They are not promised the same protection as their New Jerusalem counterparts. Describing events to take place during the 3.5 year siege of Jerusalem, Daniel prophesies what will happen to the righteous Jews:



…the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many [wicked] shall cleave to them with flatteries (encouraging them to forsake the holy covenant)

And some of them of understanding shall fall, [the Lord shall allow this] to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (Dan 11:32-35, see also verse 30)

I guess soon enough we will see whose world views are correct as we see these events unfold before us.


http://www.gospeldoctrine.com/NewTestament/ntindex.html

Rev. 13 Introduction



If the book of Revelation has not been hard enough to understand so far, the next few chapters should be a sufficient challenge. While it is possible to understand the scriptural imagery and meaning of these chapters, such study is not as edifying or useful as many other subjects. The beasts are not nearly as important as justice and mercy; they are trivial compared to the gospel of Christ’s atonement; they are barely more pertinent than fictional tails of dragons and dragon slayers. For years, they have been omitted from the Sunday School curriculum because of their potentially controversial and unedifying content. Nonetheless, we will use what tricks the prophet Joseph Smith and Daniel have left us to understand this chapter. In doing so, we will be wary of the Prophet’s warning regarding the beasts.


Joseph Smith

Oh, ye elders of Israel, hearken to my voice; and when you are sent into the world to preach, tell those things you are sent to tell; preach and cry aloud, “Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand; repent and believe the Gospel.” Declare the first principles, and let mysteries alone, lest ye be overthrown. Never meddle with the visions of beasts and subjects you do not understand. Elder Brown, when you go to Palmyra, say nothing about the four beasts, but preach those things the Lord has told you to preach about—repentance and baptism for the remission of sins. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1976], 292.)


Joseph Smith

I have seldom spoken from the revelations; but as my subject is a constant source of speculation amongst the elders, causing a division of sentiment and opinion in relation to it, I now do it in order that division and differences of opinion may be done away with, and not that correct knowledge on the subject is so much needed at the present time.



It is not very essential for the elders to have knowledge in relation to the meaning of beasts, and heads and horns, and other figures made use of in the revelations; still, it may be necessary, to prevent contention and division and do away with suspense. If we get puffed up by thinking that we have much knowledge, we are apt to get a contentious spirit, and correct knowledge is necessary to cast out that spirit. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 287.)


Rev. 13:1 I…saw a beast… having seven heads and ten horns



What is the interpretation? Joseph Smith makes clear that grotesque beasts are representative of wicked, earthly kingdoms. Note the Joseph Smith Translation and the following quote, “When God made use of the figure of a beast in visions to the prophets He did it to represent those kingdoms which had degenerated and become corrupt, savage and beast-like in their dispositions, even the degenerate kingdoms of the wicked world; but He never made use of the figure of a beast nor any of the brute kind to represent His kingdom.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 289.)



John is still seeing events of the seventh seal, prior to the Second Coming. The beast represents earthly kingdoms which will exist during that time.



What are the heads and horns? Daniel gives us the answer. An angel appeared to him and showed him similar beasts. The explanation that Daniel received from an angel applies to John’s vision as well. Daniel is told that the beasts are representative of kingdoms, “which arise out of the earth” (Dan. 7:17, 23) and that the horns are representative of the kings or rulers of these nations (Dan. 7:24).



Rev. 13:2 the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion



The vicious and dangerous animals of this world are used to represent the vicious, wicked, and power hungry kingdoms of the last days. “The beast has power among nations and peoples in the same way vicious animals have power in their kingdoms, ruling others by fear and force.” (Donald W. Parry and Jay A. Parry, Understanding the Book of Revelation [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.)



It is useful to compare Daniel chapter 7 to Revelation 13, verses 1-8 because they are both speaking of the same seventh-seal kingdoms.





Revelation 13

Daniel 7

Number of beasts


One beast


Four beasts

Animal Imagery


The single beast has body parts of a leopard, bear, and lion.


1st beast is like a lion

2nd beast is like a bear

3rd beast is like a leopard

4th beast is terrible and strong

Number of heads=7


One beast has 7 heads, representing 7 kingdoms


The 1st, 2nd, and 4th beast have one head each. The 3rd beast has four heads, making seven heads total. Again, the heads represent 7 earthly kingdoms

Number of horns=10


Beast has a total of 10 horns representing 10 latter-day rulers.


All 10 horns come from the fourth beast. “the ten horns… are ten kings that shall arise” (Dan. 7:24).


Rev. 13:2 the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority



Whether one beast or four, whether the seven kingdoms or the ten kings, all receive their power from the dragon, or the devil. He owns the beasts. They do his bidding. He supports them as he has supported his minions for ages; he gives them great power and authority, but only for a season. At last, they are destroyed with the dragon who gave them power in the first place (Dan. 7:9-14).



Rev. 13:3-4 I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed



A kingdom, or nation, receives a wound that should be fatal. Presumably destroyed by another nation, this broken nation would not die. Miraculously healed by the power of the dragon to continue to make war with the saints, this kingdom becomes a wonder and marvel to its admirers who declare “Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”


Joseph Smith

John says, “And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed; and all the world wondered after the beast.” Some spiritualizers say the beast that received the wound was Nebuchadnezzar, some Constantine, some Mohammed, and others the Roman Catholic Church; but we will look at what John saw in relation to this beast…



“All the world wondered after the beast,” Nebuchadnezzar and Constantine the Great not excepted… I will venture to say that when God allows the old devil to give power to the beast to destroy the inhabitants of the earth, all will wonder. Verse 4 reads, “And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”



Some say it means the kingdom of the world. One thing is sure, it does not mean the kingdom of the Saints. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 293)


Rev. 13:4 who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him?



If one forgives the mixing of metaphors, then the description of the beast after surviving the near-fatal wound matches the description of the fourth beast of Daniel 7 (Dan 7:7-8, 15-27), the little horn of Daniel 8 (Dan 8:9-26), and the second king of the north of Daniel 11-12 (Dan 11:21-45; 12:10-12). The student can learn much by reading and understanding that these passages all reference the same latter-day ruler and kingdom.



The greatness and terrible power of the beast are described in multiple places. Neighboring nations will be in awe. The entire world will take notice. He will make war with others but always keeps his eye on the destruction of Jerusalem, the Holy People, and their Holy Temple (already built and in use by the time of the fulfillment of the prophecy). He is described as follows:



…behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. (Dan 7:7)



And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

…his power shall be mighty, by not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. (Dan 8:10-11, 24)



…he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers’ fathers, he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devises against the strong holds, even for a time.

…Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant.

…they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall [put in] place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Dan 11:24, 28, 31)


Rev. 13:5 power was given unto him to continue forty and two months



In chapter 11, we discussed the 3.5 years that Jerusalem will be under siege from her enemies. The beast is the enemy—a nation led through Satan’s power to lay hold upon the holy city, “for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread underfoot forty and two months” (Rev. 11:2). Zechariah declared, “I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity” (Zech. 14:1).



One of the greatest abominations of this siege will be the way the enemy desecrates the Jerusalem temple. Daniel prophesies repeatedly of this 42-month period in relation to the desecration of the temple and the desolation of abomination:



…they shall be given into his hand until a time (one year) and times (two years) and the dividing of time (half a year). (Dan 7:25)



How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary (the temple) and the host (the people) to be trodden under foot?

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Dan. 8:13-14)



…they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

…And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Dan 11:31; 12:11)



Rev. 13:5-6 he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle



Imagine the importance of a Jerusalem Temple to the Jews and to the latter-day saints. Imagine the importance of the re-establishment of ancient rites, the focus of worship, the symbolism of the holy place. It would seem that not long after the Jews are able to establish such a wonderful feat in building a temple for the first time since Herod’s was destroyed, their enemies will come against them, blaspheme the name of God, and desecrate the temple. Impressed with himself, the king of the opposing army will make himself great. Daniel was more descriptive:



And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god… (Dan. 11:36-39)



“[He] goes even further by claiming the very attributes of deity; indeed, of being deity itself. Second Thessalonians 2:3-4 tells us that the ‘son of perdition . . . opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God’ (KJV). The special form this blasphemy takes is the claim of savior. But the salvation the dragon offers is the momentary thrill—the cheap pleasure of the prostitute that is fleeting, empty, and immoral. The beast's seductive promises are anchored solely in the illusion that one can find happiness and security in iniquity. (Richard D. Draper, Opening the Seven Seals: The Visions of John the Revelator [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1991], 187)



Rev. 13:7 it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them



Speaking of things temporally and spiritually, Satan has been making war with the saints in an attempt to overcome them since Eve first partook of the forbidden fruit. Unfortunately, he has overcome some of the greatest spirits that have come to the earth.


Ezra Taft Benson

We live in a day of great challenge. We live in that time of which the Lord spoke when he said, “Peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion.” (D&C 1:35.) We live in that day which John the Revelator foresaw when “the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” (Rev. 12:17.) The dragon is Satan; the woman represents the Church of Jesus Christ. Satan is waging war against the members of the Church who have testimonies and are trying to keep the commandments. And while many of our members are remaining faithful and strong, some are wavering. Some are falling. Some are fulfilling John’s prophecy that in the war with Satan, some Saints would be overcome. (See Rev. 13:7.) (“The Power of the Word,” Ensign, May 1986, 79)


Gerald N. Lund

John wrote that Satan will "make war with the remnant of her [the Church's] seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 12:17Rev. 12:17).



Then in Rev. 13:7Rev. 13:7, John said, "And it was given unto him [a wicked beast that serves Satan] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them." I do not think he means to overcome the Church, but to overcome some of the Saints. I think we see that spiritual disaster happening in the lives of many around us—youth, adults, and others. (Selected Writings of Gerald N. Lund: Gospel Scholars Series [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1999], 365.)



Rev. 13:7 it was given unto him to make war with the saints



Speaking of temporal things and earthly conquests, the king described in verses 5 and 6, will make war with the saints and overcome them. Are we to understand that the latter-day saints going to be destroyed in an apocalyptic war? This passage requires some explanation.



At the same time as the events of Revelation 13, most the latter-day saints will be gathered to the lands of Zion, headquartered in Jackson County. They will have built a great city and named it New Jerusalem. They are not overcome by any opposing army. Rather, the scriptures promise that the Lord will protect them.



…it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;

And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.

And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand. (D&C 45:66-70)



We are accustomed to using the word saints to refer to members of the Church, but this is not how John uses the term. Both John and Daniel use the term saints and the holy people in referring to the covenant keeping Jews who have established the temple in Jerusalem (Dan. 7:21; 8:24; 11:30-35; 12:7). They are not promised the same protection as their New Jerusalem counterparts. Describing events to take place during the 3.5 year siege of Jerusalem, Daniel prophesies what will happen to the righteous Jews:



…the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many [wicked] shall cleave to them with flatteries (encouraging them to forsake the holy covenant)

And some of them of understanding shall fall, [the Lord shall allow this] to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. (Dan 11:32-35, see also verse 30)


Joseph Smith

The “Horn” made war with the Saints and overcame them, until the Ancient of Days came; judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High from the Ancient of Days; the time came that the Saints possessed the kingdom. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1976], 159.)


Joseph Fielding Smith

Daniel and John each saw the opposition the little horn made against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This opposition will continue until the grand council is held at Adam-ondi-Ahman. This “little horn” ("Dan. 7:20"Dan. 7:21"Dan. 7:22Dan. 7:20-22; "Rev. 13:1Rev. 13) is making a renewed and determined effort today to destroy the Church. The Lord has decreed otherwise and while its power will last until Michael comes and the Son of Man receives his rightful place, this great power will endure. It must, however, fall, and according to the scriptures its end will come rather suddenly. (Church History and Modern Revelation, 4 vols. [Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1946-1949], 4: 44.)


Wilford Woodruff

We have not altogether traveled on beds of ease, we have had warfare and opposition from the commencement until this day; but we and the world may set our hearts at rest concerning “Mormonism,” for it will never cease until the Lord Jesus Christ comes in the clouds of heaven. This nations and other nations will war with the Saints of God until their cup is full; and when they become ripened in iniquity the Lord Almighty will cut them off, and the judgments of the Most High God will follow the testimony of the Elders of Israel. (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 17: 246.)



Rev. 13:11 I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth



Daniel’s prophecies have been a great help in understanding the beast described in verses 1-8. Daniel 7-8, 11-12 describe the kingdoms of the apocalyptic period with remarkable detail. In fact, his prophetic imagery is very descriptive. However, careful study would suggest that none of his prophecies speak of this last beast.



There is a remarkable irony when we consider the beast of verses 11-18. John appears to be the only prophet who makes specific reference to this last of the wicked world leaders. Furthermore, the scriptures and the Brethren are almost silent when it comes to this subject. In contrast, popular culture and theorists never stop talking about the beast with the number 666. Books have been written; television programs have explored the subject; and people who know nothing of fundamental doctrines like baptism have still heard of the beast with Satan’s number.



Rev. 13:11 he had two horns like a lamb



“The lamb is Antichrist working miracles and teaching false doctrines in the name of salvation. Later in the revelation this lamb is called the ‘false prophet’ (16:13; 19:20; 20:10, KJV) and uses counterfeit prophetic knowledge as a means of deception. The two horns represent feigned benevolent authority. Note John's words carefully. He says that the beast had horns ‘like a lamb,’ not like the Lamb. Therefore, the second beast, the fraudulent Christ, imitates the Lord.” (Richard D. Draper, Opening the Seven Seals: The Visions of John the Revelator [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1991], 146.)



Rev. 13:12 causeth the earth… to worship the first beast



“The second beast never comes fully into view but remains in the background, the deceptive distance catching those who might not otherwise be attracted to the first beast, and in this way it betrays people into the worship of the latter. Indeed its whole function seems to be to seduce mankind into this false worship. And what is the objective of this worship? In a word, materialism: the ability to buy and sell and to get gain.” (Richard D. Draper, Opening the Seven Seals: The Visions of John the Revelator [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1991], 147.)



“This beast has the appearance of a lamb, like Jesus; outwardly he appears innocent and harmless. But when the beast speaks, his true nature is revealed—he speaks like his master, the devil.” (Donald W. Parry and Jay A. Parry, Understanding the Book of Revelation [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 172.)



Rev. 13:13 deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by means of those miracles which he had power to do


Orson Pratt

Immediately before the second coming of Christ, there is to be a general gathering of the nations against the Jews at Jerusalem. These nations will gather into the valley of Armageddon near Jerusalem, after which the Lord will destroy them. This great movement of all nations against the Jews will be set in operation by the means of wicked miracles. John speaks of it thus: “And I saw three unclean spirits, like frogs, come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And He gathered them together unto a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.” (Rev. 16:13-16) The reason the Lord will suffer the devil to work miracles to deceive “the kings of the earth and of the whole world,” is because they will previously have rejected “the everlasting gospel”; therefore the devil will deceive them, and lead them on to destruction, as he did the Egyptians. This same power is prophesied of by Paul, as follows. “And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming; even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonder, and with all deceiveableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thess. 2:8-12)



—If the foregoing quotations be correct, we see that the devil has power to create serpents and frogs, and turn rivers of water into blood—that he has power to reveal strangers who may come in disguise, and raise up a dead prophet to converse with men here on the earth—that he has power to break chains and fetters—to transform himself into an angel of light—to show all the kingdoms of the world unto Christ—to perform great signs and wonders, and call fire down from heaven—and finally, his power is to be so wonderfully manifested, that even “the kings of the earth and the whole world” will suffer themselves to be deceived by his miracles, and be blindly led to the valley of Slaughter, where they will be consumed by the brightness of Christ's coming. All of these things the devil has done, and will do, if the English translation of the Bible be correct. (Orson Pratt's Works [Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1945], 233.)


Glenn L. Pace

As Elder Talmage put it: "Specified gifts of the Spirit are to follow the believer as signs of divine acknowledgment. The possession of such gifts may be taken therefore as essential features of the Church of Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, we are not justified in regarding the evidence of miracles as proof of authority from heaven; on the other hand, the scriptures aver that spiritual powers of the baser sort have wrought miracles, and will continue so to do, to the deceiving of many who lack discernment. . . . John the Revelator saw in vision a wicked power working miracles, and thereby deceiving many, doing great wonders, even bringing fire from heaven. Again, he saw unclean spirits, whom he knew to be 'the spirits of devils, working miracles.' " (Articles of Faith, 1984 ed., p. 209.)



President Joseph F. Smith said: "The gifts of the Spirit and the powers of the holy Priesthood are of God, they are given for the blessing of the people, for their encouragement, and for the strengthening of their faith. This Satan knows full well, therefore he seeks by imitation-miracles to blind and deceive the children of God. Remember what the magicians of Egypt accomplished in their efforts to deceive Pharaoh as to the divinity of the mission of Moses and Aaron. John the Revelator saw in vision the miracle-working power of the evil one. Note his words. 'And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; . . . and he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth, by the means of those miracles,' etc. ("Rev. 13:11"Rev. 13:12"Rev. 13:13"Rev. 13:14Rev. 13:11-14.) Further, John saw three unclean spirits whom he describes as 'the spirits of devils, working miracles.' ("Rev. 16:13"Rev. 16:14Rev. 16:13-14.)" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 376.) (Glenn L. Pace, Spiritual Plateaus [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1991], 135.)



Rev. 13:16 he causeth all to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads



Satan doesn’t know how to run a kingdom without ripping off all the Lord’s ideas. Hence, we see him using the right hand and forehead for his “covenant people.” The saints have always made sacred covenants with the right hand. Next chapter, we will discuss again the 144,000 who are sealed by God in their foreheads. Satan wants to mimic these patterns of righteousness by having his beast mark his prey in the right hand or forehead.



Gerald N. Lund

Numerous interpretations of that passage have been given by various commentators, ranging all the way from saying it is a specific mark placed on the body of a person to wildly spiritualistic interpretations; however, knowledge of an ancient custom and a secondary practice derived from this custom sheds light on what John may have been trying to convey.

64In the Roman empire there were vast numbers of slaves. Often a slave would run away from his master, go to a large city such as Rome, and try to disappear into the population. Since nothing about a human being marks him naturally as either a slave or free man, such runaways could pass as free persons as long as no one could personally identify them. To protect against that practice, slave owners would often brand their slaves with marks to identify them, just as modern stockmen permanently mark their animals for identification. To make this brand impossible to hide under clothing, most slaves were marked either on the palm of the right hand or on the forehead directly above the eyes. Therefore, it would have been common in John's time to see a person walking down the street with a mark on his right hand or on his forehead and to instantly identify him as a slave.



Out of that practice grew a secondary custom. Worshipers of various gods in the Roman pantheon, to symbolize the fact that they were totally dedicated to their god—in other words, that they were slaves or servants of their god—would also mark themselves on the right hand or the forehead. In this case they would mark themselves with a symbol of their god. Thus, a person might be seen walking down the street with a thunderbolt on his forehead, which symbolized that he was totally devoted to—that is, a slave to—Jupiter. A person marked with a trident said symbolically, “I am a servant of Poseidon, the god of the sea,” and so on. John's readers, familiar with that concept and its significance, would not have puzzled over what he meant. To say that a person had the mark of the beast suggested that he was a slave of, or totally subservient to, the beast. Note that John uses the same imagery in a positive sense, indicating that there are those who are sealed in their foreheads with the mark of God (see Rev. 7:3Rev. 7:3). This use clearly signifies that these are people who belong to God; they are God's servants. (Selected Writings of Gerald N. Lund: Gospel Scholars Series [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1999], 65.)



Rev. 13:17 no man might buy or sell save he that had the mark



“John lays before the reader the terrifying prospect of an economic system completely dominated by what has been called ‘the Mahanic principle.’ Satan, who stands as initiator of this system, first revealed its great secret to Cain, who in turn revealed it to his followers (see "Moses 5:29"Moses 5:30"Moses 5:31Moses 5:29-31). Satan ‘did plot with Cain and his followers from that time forth’ ("Hel. 6:27Hel. 6:27). And what was the objective of all that plotting? To learn the trade of turning human life into property. Evil and conspiring men formed the secret combination that then swept across oceans and survived through time. And Satan ‘doth hand down their plots, and their oaths, and their covenants, and their plans of awful wickedness, from generation to generation according as he can get hold upon the hearts of the children of men’ ("Hel. 6:30Hel. 6:30). (Richard D. Draper, Opening the Seven Seals: The Visions of John the Revelator [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1991], 147.)



“Here we see the extent of the power of the second beast. In 13:15 we see that the beast kills those who will not worship the first beast. Now we see that he has another threat: he controls the world economy so much that only those with the mark can engage in the essential economic activities of buying and selling.” (Donald W. Parry and Jay A. Parry, Understanding the Book of Revelation [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 175.)


Rev. 13:18 his number is Six hundred threescore and six



Many explanations have been offered for the number of the beast. The latter-day saint perspective should be colored by the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith which help us to understand that this apocalyptic world leader with his mark and number is yet to come forth upon the earth. Looking to the past or even the present for its fulfillment is not likely to be fruitful. Nevertheless, it is interesting for the reader to understand how our Christian colleagues have examined, and over-examined, this passage. The following excerpt is from a representative website explaining current Christian concepts. One of their creative numerical calculations has the Mormons as representing the number of the beast—see below.



Source: (http://www.religion-cults.com/antichrist/666.htm)

Through the ages people have tried to identify a person to whom this number may refer, while trying to establish what his main function is said to be.

Slaves usually received a mark on their hand as proof of who their owner was. Kings of those times had their own personal stamp or seal for use on official documents.

This mark of the Antichrist is to be stamped in the right hand and in the forehead of his followers, as stated in the two previous verses, and he who does not have it won't be able to sell nor buy anything, "And He (the Beast) causes all, both the small and great, rich and poor, free and slave to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads. And that no one may buy or sell except he who has the mark or the name of the Beast or the number of his name." (Rev.13:16-17)

This mark to which John refers, and the number of the name, namely 666, can be understood in two ways:
1- Literal Interpretation: The number 666 would the numerical value of the letters of the name, so you can know who is the Antichrist.
2- Symbolic or Spiritual Interpretation: Number 6 in the Bible is the number of imperfection, so, the Antichrist would have the triple total imperfection, in his religious, political and social dimensions, symbolizing the climax of man's failure and wickedness

Number "7" is the number of perfection in the Bible, seven days of creation, seven days of a week, the twenty sevens of the Book of Revelation... "6" does not reach perfection, and "8" is the number of super-perfection. Number "6" is often used as the symbolic number of imperfection of humankind (two arms, two legs, one head, one body).

1- Literal Interpretation:

For centuries, this number 666 has given rise to a lot of thought and speculation.

There are several methods which have been used to try to identify a certain person to which 666 refers. The meanings of numbers are further illustrated and established by the study of Gematria or the numeric values of words.

The Greeks and Hebrews did not have separate symbols, such as 1, 2 and 3, for numbers like we do. Instead, like the Romans, they used the letters of their alphabets.... and lately, gematria studies have been done in the modern languages: English, Spanish French...

In Greek (Greek Numerals):

The Revelation was written inn Greek, so this is a most important language to find out about the 666:

In Greek alpha represents 1 and beta 2 and so on up to iota, which is 10. After that kappa is 20, lambda 30 and so on up to ro, which is 100. Sigma is 200, tau 300 and so on up to omega, which is 800. These values are shown in the table below. (The number 6 was originally the letter digamma which later dropped out of use.) This means that you can take the letters of any word or name, and add them up to get a total value for the word. That value is called the gematria.

Letter


Name


Value





Letter


Name


Value





Letter


Name


Value

a


alpha


1





i


iota


10





r


ro


100

b


beta


2





k


kappa


20





s


sigma


200

g


gamma


3





l


lamda


30





t


tau


300

d


delta


4





m


mu


40





u


upsilon


400

e


epsilon


5





n


nu


50





f


phi


500

z


zeta


7





x


xi


60





c


chi


600

h


eta


8





o


omicron


70





y


psi


700

q


theta


9





p


pi


80





w


omega


800

The name Jesus (IhsouV in Greek) adds up to 888. The name of Caesar Nero in Greek is 666.

Many of the titles of Jesus have the number 8 as a prominent feature or factor. KurioV (Lord) has the value 800. CristoV (Christ) is 1480 which has the factors 37 x 8 x 5. (888 is 37 x 8 x 3). Alhqeia (truth) is 64 or 8 x 8. Swthr (Savior) is 1408 or 8 x 8 x 22. OdoV (Way) is 344 or 8 x 43.

On the other hand, KosmoV (world) has the gematria 600. The kosmos is the sphere of man's works apart from God. Many of the names and titles of Satan, such as drakwn (dragon) and ofiV (serpent), have the factor 13.



Roman Numerals: The Papacy

These are also important because the Latin language was the one spoken in the Roman Empire:

I = 1 V = 5 X = 10 L=50 C=100 D=500 M=1000



The Adventists claim the Papacy is the Antichrist using this system as computation, using some trickcs:

They use the words VICARIUS FILII DEI, and the computation is perfect, as follows:

V.................... 5
I..................... 1
C.................100
A.................... 0
R.................... 0
I..................... 1
U.................... 5
S.................... 0

F.....................0
I......................1
L................... 50
I...................... 1
I.......................1

D...................500
E......................0
I.......................1

TOTAL = 666

But the Pope is never called "Vicarius Filii Dei", but the "Vicar of Christ", and this doesn't fit!, only accounts for 205... Papacy computation is only 100... In Italian Papado is 500... Pope is 0... Papa is 0... Vatican is 106... Rome is 1000...
... but they keep manufacturing new words that fit: So, in Latin: "Dux Cleri" (Captain of the clergy"), Ludovicus (Vicar of the court)... in Greek: "I Protera" (first of two), "Lateinos" (The Latin speaking man), "He Latin Basilea" (The Latin Kindom), "Italia Ekklesia" (Italian Church), "Apostates"... in Hebrew: "Romith" (Roman Kingdom), "Romiti" (Roman Man)...
Most of these words have nothing to do with the Papacy... but they don't care, because for the Adventists every Christian who celebrates the Day of the Lord on Sunday carries the mark of the Antichrist, so all 2000 million Christians are of the Antichrist for them!... all of them except the 6 million of Adventists!.
To carry on this theory, the 42 months or 1260 days of the reign of the Antichrist, in Rev.12:6 and 13:5, they convert them into 1200 years, a year per day!... and even so, all the Christians should have already been destroyed by Christ long time ago!... but the Adventists keep on creating new theories.
Going back to the Roman Catholic Church: It is absolutely not the Antichrist!. It is an awful slander... just as when the Pharisees called Jesus Beelzebud, Satan: If the Church must suffer like Christ, and if Christ was called Beelzebub, the true Church must expect a similar reproach; thus, the Papal-Antichrist theory becomes an argument in favor of the Roman Church.
Of course there have been many bad popes and bishops... just like in the first Seminary of Christianity… I know, the Pharisees of today they will call them the Antichrists, as they called Jesus Satan in his days!...
... And what about the one million women and 500,000 men, alive today, who made vows of poverty, chastity and obedience to dedicate themselves full time for life to preach the Gospel of Jesus with their words, and most specially with their lives?... surely, 11 out 12 become a Jude or a Peter, and they are week and human like the 12 Apostles, but most of them, 11 out of 12 become Great Saints!, praise the Lord!.

[ktg]

Mark,
That's a great link. Thanks.

[pjbrownie]

Daniel, like all prophecies, can be read multiple ways. The historical way is to see the Beast as Rome, and the second Beast (the little horn) as the Byzantine/Papal alliance that has never been totally destroyed but has mutated into a modern European conglomeration but has been neutered since the early 1800's when America rose with its principle of religious freedom.

However, it can also have a futurist interpretation (just as there are two interpretations of the abomination that makes desolate that Jesus notes in Matthew 24). In this futurist interpretation, the little horn takes on the characteristic of the Beast of Revelations that rises up to destroy the 10 kingdoms (European alliance) and mimics the original horn. In reality this beast "which is diverse" from all other kingdoms, has never gone away, just into hiding and has mutated to the point that it can grab power again like it did in its Papal days to set up a false religion that worships a new age messiah.

The trick for me is to view Daniel interpreted mostly in a historic fashion, with the Little Horn exemplified by the Byzantine/Papal alliance that imposed Catholicism in the early 6th century. In the latter days, this horn will be resurrected to fight the Saints of God as well as the Jews in Israel.

Revelations is historic, but makes best sense interpreted from a futurist seventh-seal point of view.

[Oldemandalton]

From Mark;
Here are some thoughts below for your reading pleasure OMD. We will have a tendency to assign identity of the beasts based on our own personal world views. For example Lundbaek sees this dreaded NWO formation of nations as the 1st beast. He has a world view of such so it is natural for him to do so. I see Russia as that nation with a near fatal wound that is miraculously healed and makes war with the Saints and lays siege to Jerusalem for 42 months because of my world view of the plans of communism. Notice the following thoughts in the gospel doctrine lesson I am posting that may change how we look at this issue if correct:

Thanks Mark for the info. I agree that our world view distorts our interpretations of the scriptures. That’s how we can read the scriptures over and over again and get something different from it each time. Our perspective changes as we live our lives day by day. Our paradigm has fewer changes though. It takes a real ‘Aha’ moment to change how we view of reality.

From pjbrownie:
Daniel, like all prophecies, can be read multiple ways. The historical way is to see the Beast as Rome, and the second Beast (the little horn) as the Byzantine/Papal alliance that has never been totally destroyed but has mutated into a modern European conglomeration but has been neutered since the early 1800's when America rose with its principle of religious freedom.

However, it can also have a futurist interpretation (just as there are two interpretations of the abomination that makes desolate that Jesus notes in Matthew 24). In this futurist interpretation, the little horn takes on the characteristic of the Beast of Revelations that rises up to destroy the 10 kingdoms (European alliance) and mimics the original horn. In reality this beast "which is diverse" from all other kingdoms, has never gone away, just into hiding and has mutated to the point that it can grab power again like it did in its Papal days to set up a false religion that worships a new age messiah.

The trick for me is to view Daniel interpreted mostly in a historic fashion, with the Little Horn exemplified by the Byzantine/Papal alliance that imposed Catholicism in the early 6th century. In the latter days, this horn will be resurrected to fight the Saints of God as well as the Jews in Israel.

Revelations is historic, but makes best sense interpreted from a futurist seventh-seal point of view.

From every official source I could find Revelations 13:7 is referring to the Apostasy and not our day. How could it when the Beast overcomes the Saints? There will be no other Apostasy.

Rev. 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

First, when John the Beloved was banished upon the Isle of Patmos, the angel of the Lord said: “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” (Rev. 4:1.) And this was thirty years after the death of the Savior. He saw the power that would be given to Satan to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and to rule over every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. (See Rev. 11:7–9.) Now that doesn’t leave anybody out. That declares a complete apostasy from the original church. Then he saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, “having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.” (Rev. 14:6.) Now that doesn’t leave anybody out, and there would be no point in an angel bringing the everlasting gospel if it were still here upon this earth. That is a definite declaration of the restoration and not a reformation. by Elder LeGrand Richards New Era » 1973 » June

Then he showed him all things from the war in heaven to the final winding-up scene, and he showed him the power that would be given to Satan to make war with the saints (and the saints were the followers of Christ in his church); and he said that power was given him over all kindreds and tongues and nations. (See Rev. 13:7.) Why should that be in the holy scriptures if the gospel was to remain upon the earth from the days of St. Peter down to the present time? Ensign » 1972 » July Elder LeGrand Richards

In Revelation 13 we read John’s vision of the victory of the forces of Satan over the Saints of the Lord. In his vision, John saw the appearance of a beast, which was an agent of the devil. “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” (Rev. 13:7, )

The Prophet Joseph Smith said that this beast was “in the likeness of the kingdoms of the earth.” (JST, Rev. 13:1.) Kingdom, in a scriptural context, can mean any kind of institution, movement, force, or power—religious, political, or otherwise. In viewing John’s beast in the light of its context in Revelation 13 and other prophetic statements concerning the fall of the Church, we can identify it as the institutions or forces that prevailed over (or, more accurately, corrupted) true Christianity, leaving an apostate Christianity in its place. Ensign » 1984 » December By Kent P. Jackson

John, too, saw the extinguishing of early-day Saints by the adversary: “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” (Rev. 13:7.) Ensign » 1986 » December By Elder Neal A. Maxwell

John’s Revelation is also roughly contemporary with the letters of Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp, and it speaks of the coming power of Satan and his agents “to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.” (Rev. 13:7.) Obviously John had been imprisoned or was otherwise unavailable when these bishops struggled against factions in the cities of Greece and Asia, but they could not be unaware of his plain teachings. In fact, he was only the last of many prophets who foresaw total apostasy, and the writings of the earliest Christian bishops reveal events that brought about fulfillment of that prophecy. Ensign » 1976 » August by Richard Lloyd Anderson

Many confuse Rev 13:7 with Daniel 7:21-22.

Daniel 7:21-22
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

These verses in the King James translation say that the little horn prevailed against the saints "until the Ancient of days came." But what does the original Hebrew say? A simple look at ‘Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon’, http://www.tgm.org/bible.htm, shows that things are not as they seem.

The key words are "made war with the saints and prevailed against them":
"made war": although "made war" is a possible translation in the right context, the Hebrew just means "opposes."

The word "prevailed": this is the only time in the whole Bible when that Hebrew word is translated "prevailed." Usually it is translated as something weaker, like "can," or "is able."

"against them": this crucial phrase is not in the Hebrew text.
The use of "kel" ("can" or "be able") in Daniel:
A look at the uses of the word translated as "prevailed" in Daniel 7:22 (Aramaic "kel," Strong's number 03202) will show that "prevailed" is a mis-translation:

Daniel 2:10 "There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter"
Daniel 2:27 "The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men ... shew unto the king"
Daniel 2:47 "seeing thou couldest reveal this secret"
Daniel 3:17 "our God whom we serve is able to deliver"
Daniel 3:29 "there is no other God that can deliver"
Daniel 4:18 "all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known..."
Daniel 4:37 "those that walk in pride he is able to debase"
Daniel 5:16 "if thou canst read the writing"
Daniel 6:4 "but they could find none occasion or fault"
Daniel 6:20 "is thy God, whom thou servest continually, able to deliver thee from the lions?"

So Daniel 7:21-22 Should Probably be Translated:

"I beheld, and the same horn opposed the saints, and was able to until the Ancient of days came, and judgement was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

So Daniel 7:21-22 says the horn is able to fight against the saints until the Ancient of Days comes. It says nothing about the time when, for 1260 "days," the horn controls the saints – the limited period when the saints were "given into his hand."

So the 1260 “Days” is the time the Church was in apostasy and not a 3 ½ year period where The Beast ‘prevails over or overcomes’ the Latter-Day Saints.


Old Man Dalton

[pjbrownie]

I agree with what you just stated in your previous post--I have no qualms with that--it is the preferred interpretation.

In Revelation 13 we read John’s vision of the victory of the forces of Satan over the Saints of the Lord. In his vision, John saw the appearance of a beast, which was an agent of the devil. “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” (Rev. 13:7, )

This is an interlude in John's description of the seals and it talks about the dragon, which is a beast, but not the Beast spoken of in Revelations. So while the Beast is indeed Rome and the following Papal/European power is the power the drives the church into the wilderness, I believe a secondary futurist interpretation will repeat this prophecy in literal days in Jerusalem over the restored peoples of Judah. Here's why:

In Revelations chapter 2,3 "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give apower unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." This is the same time period 1260 days or 42 months that is spoken of in Daniel and where we get confused, because obviously this isn't describing the Great Apostasy, this is discussing a literal 7-year tribulation of 1260 days when the prophets preach in Jerusalem. This cannot be taken any other way than a literal 1260 days.

Revelations 13: 14-17 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those bmiracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

This beast is in verse 5 "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." Again the reference to 1260 days. We have seen a literal understanding of this, and while this reference may be historical in years, it is probably also interpreted in days with reference to Revelations 13. Also, we have not seen a beast in historical circumstances that dealt a mark in the forehead, not stopped those without the mark to not buy or sell.

Finally, in chapter 17 we have the description of MYSTERY BABYLON that rides upon a beast. Who is MYSTERY BABYLON - it has been discussed many times on this board and the consensus is that it is the Western banking powers that controls the UN and the West. The beast rises up and kills the whore, and assumes her power. This is not now, but is in the future.

In essence, while the beasts in revelations relate to the past, they are also a type for the future beasts that will overcome the Saints (at least in Jerusalem) for seven years. I don't know how else you interpret this.

[Oldemandalton]

From PJ
This is an interlude in John's description of the seals and it talks about the dragon, which is a beast, but not the Beast spoken of in Revelations. So while the Beast is indeed Rome and the following Papal/European power is the power the drives the church into the wilderness, I believe a secondary futurist interpretation will repeat this prophecy in literal days in Jerusalem over the restored peoples of Judah . Here's why:

In Revelations chapter 2,3 "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give apower unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." This is the same time period 1260 days or 42 months that is spoken of in Daniel and where we get confused, because obviously this isn't describing the Great Apostasy, this is discussing a literal 7-year tribulation of 1260 days when the prophets preach in Jerusalem . This cannot be taken any other way than a literal 1260 days.

Revelations 13: 14-17 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those bmiracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

This beast is in verse 5 "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." Again the reference to 1260 days. We have seen a literal understanding of this, and while this reference may be historical in years, it is probably also interpreted in days with reference to Revelations 13. Also, we have not seen a beast in historical circumstances that dealt a mark in the forehead, not stopped those without the mark to not buy or sell.

Finally, in chapter 17 we have the description of MYSTERY BABYLON that rides upon a beast. Who is MYSTERY BABYLON - it has been discussed many times on this board and the consensus is that it is the Western banking powers that controls the UN and the West. The beast rises up and kills the whore, and assumes her power. This is not now, but is in the future.

In essence, while the beasts in revelations relate to the past, they are also a type for the future beasts that will overcome the Saints (at least in Jerusalem ) for seven years. I don't know how else you interpret this.

Thanks PJ with your response. I am still trying to understand this position that you and several on the forum have. I am not intending to be confrontational on this matter. I would just like to get an understanding of the last days and its prophecies. That is the main reason why I joined this forum BTW.

1.The two witnesses will minister among the jews and save them from the armies of Gog for 3 ½ years.
2.Daniel 7:21-25 is speaking of the 1260 year Apostasy.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall awear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time

.

3.In Daniel chapter 12, Daniel identifies the period of the apostasy as 1260 years and in verse 11 identifies the beginning of the apostasy as 570 AD. At the end of the chapter he identifies the blessed period of the Church 1335 years later.

1 AND at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

We should not assume that the events in verse one are the same as the appearance of the Ancient of days. Indeed, verse one describes a time of great trouble, not a triumphant meeting. So this is something else. A superficial reading might suggest that this "time of trouble" is the same as the 1260 "days." But the speaker is careful to make clear that this is a time when God's people are delivered. How is someone delivered? By a period of captivity ending. This verse, then, must refer to the end of the time the saints were "in the hand" of their enemies. Only one period of history fits that description – the end of the 1260 "days" of the horn (Daniel 7:25). The Apostasy.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This is not a resurrection from the dead but a restoration from a universal apostasy.
First let us look at the resurrection. Daniel 12:2 describes the awaking of the just AND the unjust when God's people are delivered, yet the scriptures are clear that only the just will be resurrected when Jesus returns – the rest have to wait much longer. We cannot argue that Daniel is referring to the entire series of resurrections, because that will include everybody, both just and unjust, yet Daniel says only "some" will awaken.

Nowhere in the Old Testament does the word translated as "sleeping" refer to death. It usually means literally sleeping, but occasionally means not being awake to God's call. For example, in Isaiah 5:27, of those who gather to the Lord's ensign in the last days, "none shall slumber or sleep." In Isaiah 51:9 to awaken is to begin to act. The symbolism is expanded in the New Testament in Romans 13:11; 1 Corinthians 15:34 and Ephesians 5:14.

Although the phrase "dust of the earth" can mean "the place of death," but only in certain circumstances, that is not its usual meaning. The dust of the earth is often used in the Old Testament to represent what is very common, very cheap, or small, dirty, etc. For example, large numbers of people are compared to the dust of the earth (Genesis 13:16; 28:14; 2 Chronicles 1:9). At other times, items of low value are compared to the dust of the earth (Psalm 7:5; 44:25; Amos 2:7; Zechariah 9:3).
The only three occasions in the Old Testament when "dust of the earth" is clearly in the context of death are when the writers wish to emphasise dust-like views of death: Job 7:21 is in the context of great pessimism and suffering (Job 7:15-21). Ecclesiastes 12:7 is in the context of people being brought low (verses 3-5), in a generally pessimistic view. Isaiah 26:19 mentions death in the context of those who have been humbled to the dust (Isaiah 26:5-6). These three are exceptions, not the rule. Generally "death" is simply called "death."
In conclusion, the phrase "dust of the earth" in the Old Testament refers to that which is common or low (or literally the dust). It occasionally means "death," but not usually.
As for Daniel's comment about "some to shame and everlasting contempt, this may refer to how people feel who awaken to the gospel, then reject it. I do not believe that it is the saints who feel the shame and contempt, but these feelings are in the heart of the apostates. When you awaken to the truth of the gospel, you leave neutral ground forever. The worst enemies of the church are always those who were once members (see 1 John 2:18-19).

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

The word translated as "shine" is usually translated as "teach." Verse three is all about missionary work! Jesus used the same imagery later, when he said "ye are the light of the world."
The meaning of verse three is powerful and inspiring. Those who turn people to righteousness are doing a great and noble work. They shine like the stars. They are, as Obadiah 1:21 says, "saviours on mount Zion."

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:1-4 will sound familiar to anyone who has studied Isaiah 29. The saints had been brought down to the dust (Isaiah 29:3-4). They were asleep (Isaiah 29:10). Their scriptures are sealed (Isaiah 29:11). Isaiah 29 adds extra detail about the sealed book of Daniel 12:4.

It seems from Daniel 12:4 that the book is Daniel's own prophecy. Daniel's book and the Book of Revelation say much the same thing. Indeed, all prophets say similar things, so it is fair to say that the sealed book of Daniel and the sealed book of Isaiah both represent sacred prophecy in general.

Isaiah 29 shows that the books of prophecy are central to the great awakening of the last days (Isaiah 29:11– "the vision of all" is sometimes translated "every vision"). Verse 14 promises a marvellous work and a wonder. Whereas the sealed book could not be read in verse 11, by verse 18 even the spiritually deaf and blind could read it.
The restoration of a book of prophecy is the key to the awakening

5 ¶ Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So Daniel asks for a time frame. He wanted to find out how long his people are going to suffer – "when is it going to end?" The end of the vision is the great awakening of verses 1-3, so the answer should tell us when the awakening was due to start.

If you look for every occurrence of the word translated as "wonder" in the Old Testament, you will find that they refer to the mighty acts of God. So it seems fair to suppose that "the wonders" relates to the events of chapter 11, with the awakening of chapter 12 as their conclusion.

Some might say, "Daniel is asking about the events of verses 1-3," or "he is asking about the end of the world." Some people think a final three and a half years of tribulation before the Second Coming is what Daniel meant. But a little thought shows we must reject these ideas:

First, if Daniel asked about the end of the world, he would not get an answer. The Lord has said that he will not tell us that particular date (Matthew 24:36).

Second, if there is a final three and a half year period of tribulation, ending with the Second Coming, then giving the date of one would give the date of the other. So Daniel would not be told that either.

Third, as for the idea that Daniel wants the duration of the great awakening, the great awakening is a last days event. Daniel 2 showed that the stone would then roll forth and fill the world. Daniel says the awakening is "everlasting." So this would also be the same as giving away the date of the Second Coming.

Forth, the awakening is an event, not a process. Someone is either awake or they are not awake. Being awake cannot be timed, unless the person goes back to sleep again. But we are told that this awakening leads to everlasting life or everlasting contempt. How do you time these?

Finally, although we are looking at chapter 12 on its own, it is in fact a continuation of chapter 11, which is a continuation of chapter 10. Chapter 10 begins in the days of ancient Persia, and chapter 12 ends some time near to the Second Coming. There could be 2500 years or more here! Chapter 12 is simply the conclusion to the main vision in chapter 11.

How Long Are Those 'Wonders'?
Although the question was about the wonders in general, the one who answered (Daniel 12:7) chose to be quite specific – referring only to the time when the holy people are scattered. This seems to be the important period – three and a half "times" or 1260 "days." This period apparently does not cover the entire period covered by Daniel 11, because it is only in verses 28-31 of chapter 11 that the saints start being under unusual pressure.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

But Daniel still wasn't satisfied. He had a second question. He asked again when the end of all these things would be. So why did he ask again? The simplest explanation (and the most natural) is that he wanted more certain information. The "1260" period was only useful IF he knew the starting date.

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days

.

Circumstantial evidence would suggest that the "1290" question went beyond simply the events of chapter 11.
FIRST, this was the final, summing up question, recorded in the very last verses of Daniel, so it probably dealt with the BIG picture.

SECOND, if you were Daniel wouldn't you really want to know when these events were going to start — in other words, wouldn't you want some information that would allow you to tie these visions to events you had dates for?

Is Daniel 12:11 a Simple Reference to Daniel 11:31?
No. Daniel had already asked about the "wonders" and received the same information that had already been given in chapter 7 (that the key period was 1260 days.) He had already been told twice, so why ask the same question again?

Furthermore, the answer, 1290 as opposed to 1260, indicates that we are not talking about the same thing.

There is nothing unique about the phrase "abomination that makes desolate." It is simply a general descriptive phrase. He also uses phrases like "transgression that makes desolate" (8:13) and "iniquity" that leaves the land "desolate" (9:16-17 etc.). There is more than one application of the label "abomination of desolation." In fact, the only time that "abomination that makes desolate" is defined, it is not in the Book of Daniel!

Daniel uses the phrase "abomination that makes desolate" as if his readers know what the words mean. Should we know? Yes, we should, if we read the Book of Daniel as a whole. In chapter 9, Daniel prays to the Lord. What is first on Daniel's mind? The sins of his people, which lead to the desolation of the land. This could be called "an iniquity that makes desolate"

Who exactly has rebelled? Daniel says it is Judah and all Israel (9:7, 11). What was the nature of that iniquity or rebellion? Daniel refers to Moses' curse, which in Deuteronomy 11:26-28 is specifically a result of idolatry. We can confirm this by reading 2 Kings 17, the record of the fall of Israel. This chapter agrees — idolatry was the major sin. The fall of Judah is described in the last chapter of 2 Kings, and here again the captivity is a result of idolatry (of all the last kings except Josiah). Idolatry is of course the plainest form of rebellion against God. This is what Daniel is concerned about.

In fact, the abomination of idolatry is possibly the central theme of the book of Daniel — think of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of a statue, the great gold statue that led to the fiery furnace incident, the command to worship the king that led to the den of lions incident, the pride of the little horn, and so on.

This idolatry is labeled an abomination in Hosea 9:10 (referring to Numbers 25:1-3). Isaiah also confirms that worshipping false gods is an abomination (Isaiah 41:23-24). The result of this abomination is that Israel will become desolate (Hosea 2:12, translated "destroyed" in the KJV, and Hosea 5:9).

The Fall of Israel and Judah Was the Greatest Example of an Abomination That Made Desolate:
The fall of Israel and Judah is the greatest desolation of the Old Testament (after the Flood). It is due to the greatest abomination — Israel's idolatry. All the prophets warn against it, or lament it. The process of abominations (mainly idolatry) leading to desolations (i.e. Israel is overrun) is stated clearly in Ezekiel 33:25-29:
"Thus saith the Lord God; Ye eat with the blood [eating blood was against the law of Moses], and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land? Ye stand upon the sword, and ye work abomination , and ye defile every one his neighbor's wife: shall ye possess the land? ... For I shall lay the land most desolate , and the pomp of her strength shall cease; and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate , that none shall pass through. Then shall ye know that I am the Lord, because I have laid the land most desolate because of all their abominations which they have committed."

So "abomination that makes desolate" properly refers to the captivity of a nation as a result of their sins, particularly idolatry. The greatest example is the fall of Israel and Judah.

Dating the Fall of Israel:
There are two major endings in the history of Israel: the fall of Israel (the northern kingdom) to the Assyrians in 721 BC, and the fall of Judah (the southern kingdom) to the Babylonians over a period of years (606 BC, 587 BC, etc.). The most important date was the fall of Israel, for the following reasons:
Think of it from the Israelites’ point of view: Before 721 BC, Israel and Judah seemed to be constant and eternal. After 721 BC, things were far less certain.
After 721BC, Judah was spiraling down the same way as Israel, as seen all too clearly by the prophets — it was just a matter of time.

721BC was a single, dramatic event, with an unambiguous date, whereas the captivities of 606, 587, etc., took place over a number of years.

721 involved far more people — ten tribes versus two — being prevented from worshipping at the temple.

The prophets seem to lump the two captivities together, and the date chosen is 721 BC — see Hosea 5:7 (dating it as a "month" away), and Isaiah 7:16 (NIV text notes: another precisely dated prophecy).

In verse 11 look at the words "daily sacrifice" in a printed King James translation. The word "sacrifice" is in italics. Why? Italicized words are those that were not there in the Hebrew, but the translators thought should be there so the passage would make sense. You can check this in an English / Hebrew Bible: the word "sacrifice" was never there! And while you are in the Hebrew word book, check out the word translated as "daily" – it is just a word that means "continuous." So the words "daily sacrifice" were not in the original text. In fact, the word "continuous" is only translated as "daily sacrifice" in Daniel – nowhere else.

The phrase "daily sacrifice" should be translated as "continuous state." When Hosea condemns Israel for her idolatry, he reminds her that she has been a child of God ever since leaving Egypt (Hosea 11:1-4). Similarly, when the invasion is recorded in 2 Kings 17, Israel is reminded that God brought her out of Egypt, and implored to remember what her fathers had been taught (2 Kings 17:7,13, 36-37). So the tragedy is that Israel has been preserved and blessed ever since the days of Egypt, but no more. She was told to keep the commandments "for evermore" (2 Kings 17:37) but she did not. All Israel was to bring sacrifices to the temple in Jerusalem where the High Priest was to sacrifice on their behalf "continually" (Leviticus chapters 1-5 and elsewhere). But after giving them every chance, this will happen no more. Israel will no longer be in her promised land, and can no longer go to the temple. Her "continuous state" was ended.

In this light, we should look at the Hebrew word translated as "taken away." A more accurate translation would be "turned aside." The whole point is apostasy.
So Israel's most important abomination that made her desolate, and the end of her continuous state, was 721 BC. That date allowed Daniel to calculate precisely when the beginning of the 1260 "days" was to be. A very important date indeed. 721 BC plus 1290 "days" brings us to AD 570. (Note that there is no "year 0" in our calendar — 1 BC went straight to AD 1). AD 570 is a date already attested in numerous ways.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days

.


The final prophecy of the book of Daniel promises the reader that if he can wait a certain period of time, he will be blessed.

Daniel's prophecies are all about the scattering of the power of the people of God (Daniel 12:7, 10). As noted earlier, the first great scattering began 721 BC, the low point is the beginning of the Dark Ages in AD 570, and it ends with the final return of the kingdom of God in AD 1830, never to be scattered again.

Now we already know about the key date, 570, the start of the Dark Ages. So what more is there to say? We already know that we should wait for 1260 years for the return of the kingdom of God. In Daniel 12:12, we are instead advised to wait for 1335 years if we want to be blessed. So it is 1290 years from the first scattering to the Dark Ages, then 1335 years until a blessed era again. What exactly does this mean?

So when does this pioneer period of the Latter-Day Church blossom into a blessed period? When is Daniel's prophecy fulfilled?

The Church went through several periods of great persecution during the 1800s. There were other trials after the Saints reached the Rocky Mountains.

In the nineteenth century, the church had five main sources of trial:
1.Persecution from outside
The worst attacks were linked to the polygamy issue, which was finally laid to rest with the "second manifesto" of 1904 and the resignation of Taylor and Cowley in 1905.
2.Political prejudice
This began to be overcome with the election of the first LDS senator, Reed Smoot, in 1903, and his victory to retain his seat in 1907.
3.Physical dependence upon the world
This was largely due to financial debt. The church paid back its last bonds between 1903 and 1907.
4.Being hunted and literally fleeing for its survival
After fleeing west to the Rocky Mountains, and overcoming the trials just mentioned, the church was finally able to think about expanding back eastwards. Through the efforts of "good will" missionaries like Willard Bean and others, the church was finally able to return in a big way in the early years of the twentieth century. In 1905, the centenary of Joseph Smith's birth, the church was finally able to erect a large monument on recently purchased land near his home. This period also saw President Joseph F. Smith — the first Church President to visit Europe while in office, and the first to tell the members to stay in their own lands, and stop moving to America.
5.Apostasy from within
Whenever God commanded a change that some people did not like (such as beginning polygamy — or ending polygamy), some group would decide that the church was wrong. Such a group would say that the church had forfeited its right to exist, and that they (the dissenters) were now the "true" church. To justify themselves some groups twist the "one mighty and strong" prophecy about bishop Partridge (Doctrine and Covenants 85) to their own ends. The definitive First Presidency statement on such apostates was given in the year 1905. It demonstrates that God's kingdom is not a chaotic anarchy, which falls one minute and is replaced the next
6.1905 Was the Beginning of the Twentieth Century for the Church
During "Centennial Observances," "the Church ushered in the twentieth century in 1905 with the centenary of the birth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. For this occasion, President Joseph F. Smith led a group of Church leaders and Smith family members to Sharon, Vermont, Joseph Smith's birthplace, and dedicated a memorial cottage and large granite obelisk to his memory. Many LDS congregations held local observances."

Gordon B. Hinckley, in "Truth Restored", summarized the nineteenth century as "persecution" and "endurance", but called the twentieth century "The Sunshine of Goodwill". The turning point was around 1905. Perhaps as symbolic of this healing, in 1905 the first LDS hospital opened.
As if to confirm that the time for hiding was over, the church from this time began to really look at one of its greatest blessings, something that until that time had been largely neglected by church members: the Book of Mormon. In 1907 Mission President Ellsworth was on the hill Cumorah with the church president. He heard an unseen voice say:"push the distribution of the record taken from this hill. It will help to bring the world to Christ."

The Year 1905:
If a historian had to choose a single year that summarized the transition from retreat to advance, from persecution to blessings, the year would have to be 1905.
And how long was 1905 from that terrible year 570, the start of the Dark Ages? 1335 years. Exactly as prophesied in the book of Daniel. As the church grows from strength to strength, the years since 1905 have been a blessed time indeed!


Old Man Dalton

[pjbrownie]

I agree with all that you have stated. This was my jumping off point for studying the end time from an old website called Whyprophets.com. It is now defunct, but some of the archival pages are hosted on the author's now anti-Mormom page since he has now left the church--but his disseminations on Daniel were highly instructive to me, and its a shame he has left the church. Incidentally, he keeps his pages archived because he doesn't mind sending people to Amazon.com to sell his book which he wrote prior to his apostasy. Talk about lack of integrity!

Anyway I digress. Everything you have stated here I have felt is true and explains in the best way possible, the prophecies of Daniel. I only hasten to add that prophecy is multi-pronged. For example, Isaiah prophecied the destruction of Samaria and Israel--this was the intended purpose of his prophecies, but it is also a type for a future conflict that will resemble the captivity of the northern tribes by Assyria. If this was not the case, Isaiah would not make sense, because in his prophecies, Assyria is eventually beaten, and there is all this beautiful millennial discussion of the Church, Mount Zion, and the Saints. We know this did not happen THEN, but as a typological prophecy it will make complete sense in the future.

Thus, Daniel is correct both as historical prophecy and futurist prophecy--indeed it could be said that it is complete only when understood together. My interpretation of Daniel 8 may be instructive:

Daniel 7—the Four Beasts: In this first vision recorded by Daniel, four worldly kingdoms are depicted here. There are two interpretations to this dream. One is the ancient and traditional/historical meaning, and the other is the futuristic or restorative interpretation as with other prophecies and dreams. Both instances can be correct. In the traditional interpretation, the first is ancient Babylon. The second kingdom is Persia and Medes, The third kingdom is Greece, which anciently was broken into four parts after Alexander the Great died. The fourth beast is Rome, which breaks into ten kingdoms (becomes diverse), the little horn represents Justinian of Constantinople, which subdued three kings of Europe in 570 AD and spoke blasphemies (The Roman Catholic Church through the first Pope Gregory was powered by Constantinople and institutionalized throughout all of Europe at this time). With Justinian and Pope Gregory they changes the times and laws, killed the Saints for a times, time, and dividing of time (1260 years) at which time the modern Gospel in established – the stone cut out of the mountain.

The restorative interpretation completes this prophecy, because the little horn anciently morphs into the little horn of modernity—it is not officially destroyed until the end. The rest is fulfilled through Adam, the ancient of days. The first kingdom, the lion, may represent Britain, who is given the heart of man – America. The second empire is Russia, the bear, which tears in pieces. The third is swift and short, Germany, the leopard with wings (both the leopard and eagle are German coat of arms). It too is broken into four parts after WWII. The next is European Western-American alliance, diverse from the first three; it separates into ten divisions (like the toes in Daniel 2—could be the G10 nations). A little horn comes up, takes over this kingdom (is very stout meaning strong and stubborn) and will subdue three of these divisions. This horn can be interpreted as modern Assyria or the Beast in Revelations 17 and it is an extension of the earlier horn from Constantinople in that it will likely co-opt the Catholic Church and Rome reborn as a New Age of Aquarius. It will make war with the modern Church in Judah for a short time, now literally three and half years. It will change the times and laws (reckoning no more from the time of Christ). From the time of its reign, it will persecute the Saints and its reign begins its end over the earth at Adam Ondi Ahman with Adam, the Ancient of Days handing the keys to Jesus Christ. The power of the little horn begins to be broken at that time. His kingdom will ultimately be given unto the saints and the conclusion of his loss of power will be at Armageddon.

[Oldemandalton]

From PJBrownie;
I agree with all that you have stated. This was my jumping off point for studying the end time from an old website called Whyprophets.com. It is now defunct, but some of the archival pages are hosted on the author's now anti-Mormom page since he has now left the church--but his disseminations on Daniel were highly instructive to me, and its a shame he has left the church. Incidentally, he keeps his pages archived because he doesn't mind sending people to Amazon.com to sell his book which he wrote prior to his apostasy. Talk about lack of integrity!

Anyway I digress. Everything you have stated here I have felt is true and explains in the best way possible, the prophecies of Daniel. I only hasten to add that prophecy is multi-pronged. For example, Isaiah prophecied the destruction of Samaria and Israel--this was the intended purpose of his prophecies, but it is also a type for a future conflict that will resemble the captivity of the northern tribes by Assyria. If this was not the case, Isaiah would not make sense, because in his prophecies, Assyria is eventually beaten, and there is all this beautiful millennial discussion of the Church, Mount Zion, and the Saints. We know this did not happen THEN, but as a typological prophecy it will make complete sense in the future.

Thus, Daniel is correct both as historical prophecy and futurist prophecy--indeed it could be said that it is complete only when understood together. My interpretation of Daniel 8 may be instructive:

PJ, I find the research fascinating that the author of Whyprophets.com did on how the year 570 AD and 1830 ties into so many prophecies . Also his historical research into what was happening at that time (570) and that the last vestiges of the Church was in the British Isles and how that could tie into the myths of the Holly Grail.

I wondered what happened to the author. Do you know why he fell away? Kind of ironic how someone can do so much research on the Apostasy and apostatize himself!

I understand how history keeps repeating itself. I believe that we as a Church will go through a refining process before the 2nd Coming just as Saints in the past have. I see how these events can mirror each other. I just don’t think that the specificity of both time periods doesn’t necessarily apply. The beginning of the Apostasy and the year the Restoration took place were very important events and thus were foretold by several prophets in scripture. I just wouldn’t apply the same timelines as the Apostasy and Restoration to events yet to occur.

I wouldn’t apply the four Beasts to modern kingdoms. Daniel saw specific beasts that represented specific earthly kingdoms as mentioned in the first paragraph. Why twist the words of Daniel to fit someone’s own interpretation of later events? The beasts do have their remnants in modern Europe though. These would be the ‘little horn’ and the 10 horns of Daniel, the First and second beasts of John. There is no need to reinterpret Dan 7 to mean something else.

Here is an original archival link to WhyProphets.com
http://web.archive.org/web/200604270926 ... phets.com/

A Student Still Learning
OMD

[pjbrownie]

I understand how history keeps repeating itself. I believe that we as a Church will go through a refining process before the 2nd Coming just as Saints in the past have. I see how these events can mirror each other. I just don’t think that the specificity of both time periods doesn’t necessarily apply. The beginning of the Apostasy and the year the Restoration took place were very important events and thus were foretold by several prophets in scripture. I just wouldn’t apply the same timelines as the Apostasy and Restoration to events yet to occur.

I wouldn’t apply the four Beasts to modern kingdoms. Daniel saw specific beasts that represented specific earthly kingdoms as mentioned in the first paragraph. Why twist the words of Daniel to fit someone’s own interpretation of later events? The beasts do have their remnants in modern Europe though. These would be the ‘little horn’ and the 10 horns of Daniel, the First and second beasts of John. There is no need to reinterpret Dan 7 to mean something else.

I understand what you are saying, but for me, the prophecies do not make complete sense unless they have a multiple interpretation--otherwise something is missing. If you want to state that the historical interpretation is the "official interpretation" you will have no disagreement with me here. I started off with the same either/or paradigm when I first began studying Daniel. You're either a preterist (Antiochus IV in 200 BC), a historicist (the entirity of Jewish apostasy and later christian apostatsy). or a pre-millenial tribultationist (all in a post-rapture future). Indeed, what has been inspiring to me is to realize that all these things can relate. It's easy to prophecy and get it right once, but three or four times would be truly miraculous!

The name of the author of whyprophets is Chris Tolworthy. He states that he left because he couldn't logically explain the church, although he gave it his best. For awhile he ran Zarahemlacitylimits and the only place you can get his research on 570 AD (and its fantastic btw is on this link: http://www.exmormon.org.uk/tol_arch/whyprophets/)

[pjbrownie]

By the way, I have tried to find an email address for him, because I have wanted to republish it somewhere that's not on an exmormon site. Not to mention the fact that this could be taken down at any time.

[Oldemandalton]

Thanks, PJ, for the info.

OMD

[firend]

you all bring up wonderful points. I think we are all running in the same lane

[gdemetz]

Actually, the first beast is Babylon, the second Media-Persia, the third Greece and the fourth Rome, according to Daniel's prophecy. He also see the ram with two horns Media-Persia (the two horns representing the two parts of the kingdom) being defeated by the goat with one horn representing Greece. Later the great horn was broken (Alexander the Great) and four horns took its place. Alexander had five generals, and after his death, four of them divided the Greek kingdom.

It would take too long here to describe all the beasts (kingdoms) listed in the books of Daniel and Revelation. However, it's a good thing to remember that in the Jewish prophetic language, beasts represent kingdoms, horns represent distinct parts of that kingdom, and days represent years.