LDS Freedom Forum

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 9:09 am

Chip wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 12:08 am I went to a local Calvary Chapel service tonight and an older lady from my ward was there. The pastor read from Hosea and commented on it. They had the sacrament available up front for whoever wanted to partake of it. It was a small group of nice people. No overarching "leadership" agenda. Just the gospel.

This is the main thing I’ve experienced in the LDS church and also splinter or break-off groups. The members almost always seem to be almost completely preoccupied with status in their group instead of with worshipping God in truth.

Judging by their actions and what they are always talking about, being high up in the group is more important to them it seems to me than just worshiping God and building authentic Christian brotherhood/sisterhood with your fellow worshippers. There is very little soul, only ambition and pretense in my experience.

I had a supervisor back in the 1980s who was called to be an EQ president, and he was clearly pleased about it so I congratulated him. I was dumbstruck by his response "It's a start!" seriously.

Atrasado wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 1:06 pm

rimbauer.peter wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 12:53 pm "Spiritually speaking I am a rootbound tree growing in a pot inside of a house. I want to be outside where I can stretch my roots deeply into the soil and I want to produce good fruit and shade for the weary. I want to protect smaller plants. I want to grow strong enough to handle the wind in my branches. I want the sunlight to shine down on me. I did not put myself in the pot but that pot is limiting my growth in many ways." <--- This is a perfect summary of how I think about and experience the way of Christ. I will definitely save this writing of yours because it strengthens one's soul and helps move forward. Even if one is alone, the most important thing in this mortal life and in eternity itself is the knowledge and testimony of Christ. He who follows him will never be led astray.

The thought that came to me yesterday is that the institutional Church is killing the spiritual Church. One of the two has to go.

The rub of the institution versus the spiritual church imo is that it’s easy for a paid ministry because their roles are so clearly pre-defined. The pastor went to bible college and studied the Bible and church administration, so he’s the worship leader and the congregation didn’t, so they’re the congregation.

Things get more complex when you have a lay ministry who don’t have the convenience of defining roles based on training as many Protestant churches do. This is the greater challenge, but still, it doesn’t mean we should resort to back biting or endless one-upmanship!

The gospel shouldn’t be preached or taught for money or as a career but it shouldn’t be preached for worldly standing or out of jealousy or envy either.

In the great Christian revival at the turn of the last century which appeared nigh on spontaneously around the western hemisphere, in the little valleys of Wales were it first occured in Great Britain, tens of thousands gave their lives to Christ, in the meetings held by two Brothers, the Holy ghost fell apon the people gathered as He did on the day of Pentecost, the people wept with joy, spoke in tongues the sick were healed and all manner of bible manifestations occured.
This set the valleys of wales on fire for God, the two Brothers told the people this.

"Do not go and set up new churchs, but go back to the churchs you belong to and tell all the people there of the great things that God has done for you, go back to your old churchs and strengthen and build them up that they may recieve also the promised outpouring of Gods Spirit apon them"

When the fires of faith in a church go dim and turn into but embers, it takes those whom have faith to remain within it, to bear bold testimony of the living reality of Christ Jesus, to stir up the hearts of those asleep in their midst, it only needs but a little spark of faith to set that sleeping church on fire for God and you might be that tiny spark used by Jesus of Nazerath to bring revival to your people.

"Not by might, nor by strength, but by My Spirit says the Lord"

TheChristian wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 2:38 pm
"Do not go and set up new churchs, but go back to the churchs you belong to and tell all the people there of the great things that God has done for you, go back to your old churchs and strengthen and build them up that they may recieve also the promised outpouring of Gods Spirit apon them"

The problem with the LDS church is that if you were to have these great experiences outside of the church and then begin to publish them inside of the church, trying to change the church, you'll eventually be excommunicated for apostasy. Not saying you're wrong about trying, but the LDS church is pretty closed off to be influenced by other Christian sources, and it doesn't tolerate well people trying to change it from the bottom up (unless they're trying to make it more "progressive", the only tolerated change). It only changes when the go ahead is given by the corporation president, the franchise that it is, so that all fries will be the same length, seasoned with the same amount of salt, and the same amount given in each container. Each hamburger patty has to be sourced only from approved sources, each cooked for the same amount of time, seasoned the same, with the same amount of onion, pickle, ketchup, and mustard. No deviation is long tolerated. Sure, novel things draw interest at first, but as soon as the leadership notices a fry too long in the fryer, let the inquisition begin anew.

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 3:08 pm

TheChristian wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 2:38 pm
"Do not go and set up new churchs, but go back to the churchs you belong to and tell all the people there of the great things that God has done for you, go back to your old churchs and strengthen and build them up that they may recieve also the promised outpouring of Gods Spirit apon them"

The problem with the LDS church is that if you were to have these great experiences outside of the church and then begin to publish them inside of the church, trying to change the church, you'll eventually be excommunicated for apostasy. Not saying you're wrong about trying, but the LDS church is pretty closed off to be influenced by other Christian sources, and it doesn't tolerate well people trying to change it from the bottom up (unless they're trying to make it more "progressive", the only tolerated change). It only changes when the go ahead is given by the corporation president, the franchise that it is, so that all fries will be the same length, seasoned with the same amount of salt, and the same amount given in each container. Each hamburger patty has to be sourced only from approved sources, each cooked for the same amount of time, seasoned the same, with the same amount of onion, pickle, ketchup, and mustard. No deviation is long tolerated. Sure, novel things draw interest at first, but as soon as the leadership notices a fry too long in the fryer, let the inquisition begin anew.

This is where I am. I speak the truth, but the Spirit already told me not to quit, they will kick me out when they are ready.

TheChristian wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 2:38 pm In the great Christian revival at the turn of the last century which appeared nigh on spontaneously around the western hemisphere, in the little valleys of Wales were it first occured in Great Britain, tens of thousands gave their lives to Christ, in the meetings held by two Brothers, the Holy ghost fell apon the people gathered as He did on the day of Pentecost, the people wept with joy, spoke in tongues the sick were healed and all manner of bible manifestations occured.
This set the valleys of wales on fire for God, the two Brothers told the people this.

"Do not go and set up new churchs, but go back to the churchs you belong to and tell all the people there of the great things that God has done for you, go back to your old churchs and strengthen and build them up that they may recieve also the promised outpouring of Gods Spirit apon them"

When the fires of faith in a church go dim and turn into but embers, it takes those whom have faith to remain within it, to bear bold testimony of the living reality of Christ Jesus, to stir up the hearts of those asleep in their midst, it only needs but a little spark of faith to set that sleeping church on fire for God and you might be that tiny spark used by Jesus of Nazerath to bring revival to your people.

"Not by might, nor by strength, but by My Spirit says the Lord"

As others have shown many leaders in this church will not allow this to happen. Testifying of Christ and His words means contradicting many leaders in the church. They specifically say in their handbook that apostasy is "repeatedly acting in clear and deliberate public opposition to the Church, its doctrine, its policies, or its leaders." A membership council will be held for people who boldly testify of Christ in any real way. In my opinion, if Christ lives and I believe He does He would be as direct as he was in scripture. The men who preach that we need them for salvation would be very uncomfortable in His presence. Believing in Him means following Him. Following Him means defending His word and proclaiming the truth as He did.

I mostly agree with this except for the part about remaining within it. I live among the people in my ward. They are my neighbors. It isn't required for me to meet them in a church building to stir up hearts. In fact, I see it as an opportunity to testify outside of that building. Jesus testified as easily in a temple as he did outside of a temple. Place had no bearing on His ministry. If I let them kick me out that badge will remain with me in the eyes of many. They will see me as more dangerous due to their conditioning. It's interesting when people leave the church many say they can't just leave it alone. In many cases, these people who can't seem to leave it alone are those still trying to awaken the hearts of the sleeping. Of course, some completely leave the gospel and Christ and even try to get others to stop believing but this isn't me.

"When the fires of faith in a church go dim and turn into but embers, it takes those whom have faith to remain within it, to bear bold testimony of the living reality of Christ Jesus, to stir up the hearts of those asleep in their midst, it only needs but a little spark of faith to set that sleeping church on fire for God and you might be that tiny spark used by Jesus of Nazerath to bring revival to your people."

Seed Starter, I’m excited for the journey ahead of you.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 5:30 pm Seed Starter, I’m excited for the journey ahead of you.

Thank you. We just got home from the city recorder's office a few minutes ago. The notary was free so others may want to check with their city hall to see if they offer this. By free I mean I already paid for the service

Here is my take on church leaders after many years of studying and living the gospel in the church. This is it, and not more or less is right. The Lord will replace any high church leader if they get too far off track and don't quickly get back on. The church and priesthood will remain on the earth from this time, never to be taken again through the Lord's second coming (see D&C 13 among other scripture). Should the Prophet go astray or need special guidance, our Lord will provide it in the due time to fulfil his purposes. He can visit and speak with the Prophet any time he wishes. We must be ready to receive revelation. We could print this and put it in a frame or on the refrigerator with a magnet. . This is all scripturally sound and true doctrine. It will not change. Once we understand it, we need to be ready to follow the spirit to be completely as far as humanly possible, making correct and righteous judgements and decisions.

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:23 pm Here is my take on church leaders after many years of studying and living the gospel in the church. This is it, and not more or less is right. The Lord will replace any high church leader if they get too far off track and don't quickly get back on. The church and priesthood will remain on the earth from this time, never to be taken again through the Lord's second coming (see D&C 13 among other scripture). Should the Prophet go astray or need special guidance, our Lord will provide it in the due time to fulfil his purposes. He can visit and speak with the Prophet any time he wishes. We must be ready to receive revelation. We could print this and put it in a frame or on the refrigerator with a magnet. . This is all scripturally sound and true doctrine. It will not change. Once we understand it, we need to be ready to follow the spirit to be completely as far as humanly possible, making correct and righteous judgements and decisions.

Interesting how “my take” is nearly the opposite, after studying the scriptures, specifically the teachings of Christ.

JST Mark 9 would suggest that he won’t “replace” a leader, he invited us to trust in the Lord alone.

The righteous will remain on the Earth. In fact, the Lord specifically prophesied that he’d remove his gospel from wicked and apostate religions.

The Lord can and will raise up any number of prophets from various segment of society and cultures. The Lord and nearly all ancient prophets prophesied about the derelict nature of modern religious leaders. The LDS org is the epitome of apostasy and dereliction.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:50 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:23 pm Here is my take on church leaders after many years of studying and living the gospel in the church. This is it, and not more or less is right. The Lord will replace any high church leader if they get too far off track and don't quickly get back on. The church and priesthood will remain on the earth from this time, never to be taken again through the Lord's second coming (see D&C 13 among other scripture). Should the Prophet go astray or need special guidance, our Lord will provide it in the due time to fulfil his purposes. He can visit and speak with the Prophet any time he wishes. We must be ready to receive revelation. We could print this and put it in a frame or on the refrigerator with a magnet. . This is all scripturally sound and true doctrine. It will not change. Once we understand it, we need to be ready to follow the spirit to be completely as far as humanly possible, making correct and righteous judgements and decisions.

Interesting how “my take” is nearly the opposite, after studying the scriptures, specifically the teachings of Christ.

JST Mark 9 would suggest that he won’t “replace” a leader, he invited us to trust in the Lord alone.

The righteous will remain on the Earth. In fact, the Lord specifically prophesied that he’d remove his gospel from wicked and apostate religions.

The Lord can and will raise up any number of prophets from various segment of society and cultures. The Lord and nearly all ancient prophets prophesied about the derelict nature of modern religious leaders. The LDS org is the epitome of apostasy and dereliction.

President Wilford Woodruff said: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” (Official Declaration 1).

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:57 pm President Wilford Woodruff said: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” (Official Declaration 1).

WW was ignorant of Christ’s teachings. (or he was a liar, or both)

FYI, he wasn’t the first LDS leader to peddle such falsehoods, this false doctrine was preached by Brigham himself.

Jesus taught the exact opposite and the church knows it. Don’t believe me? It’s there for all to see in JST Mark 9:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/hand-foot-eye

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:01 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:57 pm President Wilford Woodruff said: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” (Official Declaration 1).

WW was ignorant of Christ’s teachings. (or he was a liar, or both)

FYI, he wasn’t the first LDS leader to peddle such falsehoods, this false doctrine was preached by Brigham himself.

Jesus taught the exact opposite and the church knows it. Don’t believe me? It’s there for all to see in JST Mark 9:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/hand-foot-eye

Ah, why then did the resurrected John the Baptist say the priesthood (hence the church) will remain on the earth until Christ's second coming?

John restored the lesser priesthood. Not sure that it was ever fully taken away, though. Millions of good Christians have been baptized since the days of Christ. Having known many of such people myself, and having seen firsthand their devotion to the Lord, I am certainly not inclined to believe that the Lord views their baptismal ordinances and covenants as counterfeit. I simply do not believe that the LDS hold a monopoly on priesthood, esp the lesser priesthood.

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:05 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:01 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:57 pm President Wilford Woodruff said: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” (Official Declaration 1).

WW was ignorant of Christ’s teachings. (or he was a liar, or both)

FYI, he wasn’t the first LDS leader to peddle such falsehoods, this false doctrine was preached by Brigham himself.

Jesus taught the exact opposite and the church knows it. Don’t believe me? It’s there for all to see in JST Mark 9:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/hand-foot-eye

Ah, why then did the resurrected John the Baptist say the priesthood (hence the church) will remain on the earth until Christ's second coming?

Authority and commission from the Lord are independent of religion. Religions can be bad and good. None are perfect. You still need to reconcile what the Lord taught in JST Mark 9 and how the church knows they are peddling false doctrine. The Lord himself prophesied that he’d remove the fullness of the gospel from any group that corrupts his teachings.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:34 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:05 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:01 pm

WW was ignorant of Christ’s teachings. (or he was a liar, or both)

FYI, he wasn’t the first LDS leader to peddle such falsehoods, this false doctrine was preached by Brigham himself.

Jesus taught the exact opposite and the church knows it. Don’t believe me? It’s there for all to see in JST Mark 9:
https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/hand-foot-eye

Ah, why then did the resurrected John the Baptist say the priesthood (hence the church) will remain on the earth until Christ's second coming?

Authority and commission from the Lord are independent of religion. Religions can be bad and good. None are perfect. You still need to reconcile what the Lord taught in JST Mark 9 and how the church knows they are peddling false doctrine. The Lord himself prophesied that he’d remove the fullness of the gospel from any group that corrupts his teachings.

So you always revert to your default position, the church leaders are liars. Good luck on that one. You sure seem to expend a lot of energy and time on a l.d.s. oriented site for no apparent reason then.

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 9:14 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:34 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:05 pm
Ah, why then did the resurrected John the Baptist say the priesthood (hence the church) will remain on the earth until Christ's second coming?

Authority and commission from the Lord are independent of religion. Religions can be bad and good. None are perfect. You still need to reconcile what the Lord taught in JST Mark 9 and how the church knows they are peddling false doctrine. The Lord himself prophesied that he’d remove the fullness of the gospel from any group that corrupts his teachings.

So you always revert to your default position, the church leaders are liars. Good luck on that one. You sure seem to expend a lot of energy and time on a l.d.s. oriented site for no apparent reason then.

Did Jesus teach that even a true prophet CAN lead you astray? Yes. Do you deny that?

Mormon didn’t just call them liars, he called them hypocrites who polluted the church.

Nephi taught that they changed the doctrine and grind the face of the poor. This example of WW epitomizes the derelict nature of LDS leaders. They know they are teaching false doctrine.

TheChristian wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 11:57 am If I was amongst your people I would speak about Jesus all the day long, give help to the helpless, the lonely and the sick, when ever your Fast and testimony meetings occured I would arise and speak about Calvary, of my Saviours love for us all, I would sing your hyms at the top of my voice and from my heart in all your communion meetings......
If you feel you have something to offer, let it be your faith in Christ, let it burn brightly that others might gain comfort, warmth and joy from it...........
To walk away from a sick church, is like walking away from a sickly elderly mother that gave you birth, return to her, your church and be that vibrant healing balm in her midst............
Jesus gave His lifes blood for the people in your church, you his disciple must carry your cross into your church and hold it up high for all the weary and heavy laden to see that they might have hope and turn to the Lord of Glory with all their hearts and find joy and peace for their souls.

Absolutely true! Amen! Amen! Amen!

solonan wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 10:13 pm

TheChristian wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 11:57 am If I was amongst your people I would speak about Jesus all the day long, give help to the helpless, the lonely and the sick, when ever your Fast and testimony meetings occured I would arise and speak about Calvary, of my Saviours love for us all, I would sing your hyms at the top of my voice and from my heart in all your communion meetings......
If you feel you have something to offer, let it be your faith in Christ, let it burn brightly that others might gain comfort, warmth and joy from it...........
To walk away from a sick church, is like walking away from a sickly elderly mother that gave you birth, return to her, your church and be that vibrant healing balm in her midst............
Jesus gave His lifes blood for the people in your church, you his disciple must carry your cross into your church and hold it up high for all the weary and heavy laden to see that they might have hope and turn to the Lord of Glory with all their hearts and find joy and peace for their souls.

Absolutely true! Amen! Amen! Amen!

What If the people just relish in idolatry of the church and it's leaders and, to them, a testimony of Jesus without praise for the prophet is like a sundae without the ice cream?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:50 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:23 pm Here is my take on church leaders after many years of studying and living the gospel in the church. This is it, and not more or less is right. The Lord will replace any high church leader if they get too far off track and don't quickly get back on. The church and priesthood will remain on the earth from this time, never to be taken again through the Lord's second coming (see D&C 13 among other scripture). Should the Prophet go astray or need special guidance, our Lord will provide it in the due time to fulfil his purposes. He can visit and speak with the Prophet any time he wishes. We must be ready to receive revelation. We could print this and put it in a frame or on the refrigerator with a magnet. . This is all scripturally sound and true doctrine. It will not change. Once we understand it, we need to be ready to follow the spirit to be completely as far as humanly possible, making correct and righteous judgements and decisions.

Interesting how “my take” is nearly the opposite, after studying the scriptures, specifically the teachings of Christ.

JST Mark 9 would suggest that he won’t “replace” a leader, he invited us to trust in the Lord alone.

The righteous will remain on the Earth. In fact, the Lord specifically prophesied that he’d remove his gospel from wicked and apostate religions.

The Lord can and will raise up any number of prophets from various segment of society and cultures. The Lord and nearly all ancient prophets prophesied about the derelict nature of modern religious leaders. The LDS org is the epitome of apostasy and dereliction.

Yes that is right! Most of those leaders are the real apostates and have been since Brigham. He brought in the 'Satanic Adam God Theory' and it was taught for twenty five years! That's not just off track that's of the planet! The leaders and most of the members have apostatized and that's why the Davidic leaders coming and his name is David! He will complete the restoration and take all the scriptures and records from the gentiles and give them to the Jews. This is the fulfilling of the gentiles coming very soon!

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 9:16 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 9:14 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:34 pm
Authority and commission from the Lord are independent of religion. Religions can be bad and good. None are perfect. You still need to reconcile what the Lord taught in JST Mark 9 and how the church knows they are peddling false doctrine. The Lord himself prophesied that he’d remove the fullness of the gospel from any group that corrupts his teachings.

So you always revert to your default position, the church leaders are liars. Good luck on that one. You sure seem to expend a lot of energy and time on a l.d.s. oriented site for no apparent reason then.

Did Jesus teach that even a true prophet CAN lead you astray? Yes. Do you deny that?

Mormon didn’t just call them liars, he called them hypocrites who polluted the church.

Nephi taught that they changed the doctrine and grind the face of the poor. This example of WW epitomizes the derelict nature of LDS leaders. They know they are teaching false doctrine.

Man some of you guys are goofy on this forum. If you can't even agree with me on what we have already talked about, let's see how you explain this. Deuteronomy 18:22 NKJV when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. I am sure your comments will be mighty interesting. Maybe Moses lied as well? I'll be waiting.

Aussie wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 10:41 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:50 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:23 pm Here is my take on church leaders after many years of studying and living the gospel in the church. This is it, and not more or less is right. The Lord will replace any high church leader if they get too far off track and don't quickly get back on. The church and priesthood will remain on the earth from this time, never to be taken again through the Lord's second coming (see D&C 13 among other scripture). Should the Prophet go astray or need special guidance, our Lord will provide it in the due time to fulfil his purposes. He can visit and speak with the Prophet any time he wishes. We must be ready to receive revelation. We could print this and put it in a frame or on the refrigerator with a magnet. . This is all scripturally sound and true doctrine. It will not change. Once we understand it, we need to be ready to follow the spirit to be completely as far as humanly possible, making correct and righteous judgements and decisions.

Interesting how “my take” is nearly the opposite, after studying the scriptures, specifically the teachings of Christ.

JST Mark 9 would suggest that he won’t “replace” a leader, he invited us to trust in the Lord alone.

The righteous will remain on the Earth. In fact, the Lord specifically prophesied that he’d remove his gospel from wicked and apostate religions.

The Lord can and will raise up any number of prophets from various segment of society and cultures. The Lord and nearly all ancient prophets prophesied about the derelict nature of modern religious leaders. The LDS org is the epitome of apostasy and dereliction.

Yes that is right! Most of those leaders are the real apostates and have been since Brigham. He brought in the 'Satanic Adam God Theory' and it was taught for twenty five years! That's not just off track that's of the planet! The leaders and most of the members have apostatized and that's why the Davidic leaders coming and his name is David! He will complete the restoration and take all the scriptures and records from the gentiles and give them to the Jews. This is the fulfilling of the gentiles coming very soon!

You guys possibly wouldn't recognize him. I find only some who can endure sound, and even simple doctrine here. This is not about the Adam, God theory, it is a simple discussion on a few simple principles and even the simplest things are choking out many it seems. Why the bitterness and malice. Did you think it would be easy? Is life too hard? As the Savior taught his apostles, will you also go away?

John 6:64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 9:14 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:34 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 8:05 pm
Ah, why then did the resurrected John the Baptist say the priesthood (hence the church) will remain on the earth until Christ's second coming?

Authority and commission from the Lord are independent of religion. Religions can be bad and good. None are perfect. You still need to reconcile what the Lord taught in JST Mark 9 and how the church knows they are peddling false doctrine. The Lord himself prophesied that he’d remove the fullness of the gospel from any group that corrupts his teachings.

So you always revert to your default position, the church leaders are liars. Good luck on that one. You sure seem to expend a lot of energy and time on a l.d.s. oriented site for no apparent reason then.

I'll give you the right answer: Most of the church leaders and members are apostates. The leaders have lead the members astray. None of them except JS actually were or have been called by God! Brigham brought in the Satanic 'Adam God Theory' and he taught it for 25 years. That was clearly satanic and Brig was possessed by a deceitful spirit. Way off track!! He also brought in spiritual wifery and had warrants for his arrest for bogus (counterfeiting). Brigham was a very unsavory character that even Charles Dickon's had nothing good to say about him after he interviewed many Pioneer Saints. This is just scratching the surface on Brig but he had other church leading accomplices who went on to be so called Prophets also. The whole establishment is corrupt and going to hell according to Isaiah! That's why David is coming the promised mighty and strong one from the Davidic line of David. He will gather the Zion people not only the very small remnant of the LDS but all the Zion people of the world who are mostly living in poverty and humility in third world countries. According to Isaiah and other real prophets the LDS leaders and members are full idolatry, pride, boasting, whoredoms and corruption actually God has nothing good to say about them but to repent and change before it's to late. So good luck with that one!

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 10:49 pm

Aussie wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 10:41 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:50 pm

Interesting how “my take” is nearly the opposite, after studying the scriptures, specifically the teachings of Christ.

JST Mark 9 would suggest that he won’t “replace” a leader, he invited us to trust in the Lord alone.

The righteous will remain on the Earth. In fact, the Lord specifically prophesied that he’d remove his gospel from wicked and apostate religions.

The Lord can and will raise up any number of prophets from various segment of society and cultures. The Lord and nearly all ancient prophets prophesied about the derelict nature of modern religious leaders. The LDS org is the epitome of apostasy and dereliction.

Yes that is right! Most of those leaders are the real apostates and have been since Brigham. He brought in the 'Satanic Adam God Theory' and it was taught for twenty five years! That's not just off track that's of the planet! The leaders and most of the members have apostatized and that's why the Davidic leaders coming and his name is David! He will complete the restoration and take all the scriptures and records from the gentiles and give them to the Jews. This is the fulfilling of the gentiles coming very soon!

You guys possibly wouldn't recognize him. I find only some who can endure sound, and even simple doctrine here. This is not about the Adam, God theory, it is a simple discussion on a few simple principles and even the simplest things are choking out many it seems. Why the bitterness and malice. Did you think it would be easy? Is life too hard? As the Savior taught his apostles, will you also go away?

John 6:64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

The leaders and most of the members of the church have left God! Most of us here who have left them have not left God!! Most of the people here who have come to the realisation that the leaders and many of the members are apostate and corrupt are trying so hard to get the LDS to see the light before it's to late. There's a Davidic leader coming and so is the Antichrist and according to God most of the church will be taken into captivity by the Antichrist and his beast system. They will be deceived and taking into slavery. We are trying to warn them before it's to late! No malice, No hate just the conditioning, tradition, injustice and indoctrination is so cemented in their minds that it's a bit frustrating at times!

Aussie wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 11:25 pm

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 10:49 pm

Aussie wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 10:41 pm Yes that is right! Most of those leaders are the real apostates and have been since Brigham. He brought in the 'Satanic Adam God Theory' and it was taught for twenty five years! That's not just off track that's of the planet! The leaders and most of the members have apostatized and that's why the Davidic leaders coming and his name is David! He will complete the restoration and take all the scriptures and records from the gentiles and give them to the Jews. This is the fulfilling of the gentiles coming very soon!

You guys possibly wouldn't recognize him. I find only some who can endure sound, and even simple doctrine here. This is not about the Adam, God theory, it is a simple discussion on a few simple principles and even the simplest things are choking out many it seems. Why the bitterness and malice. Did you think it would be easy? Is life too hard? As the Savior taught his apostles, will you also go away?

John 6:64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

The leaders and most of the members of the church have left God! Most of us here who have left them have not left God!! Most of the people here who have come to the realisation that the leaders and many of the members are apostate and corrupt are trying so hard to get the LDS to see the light before it's to late. There's a Davidic leader coming and so is the Antichrist and according to God most of the church will be taken into captivity by the Antichrist and his beast system. They will be deceived and taking into slavery. We are trying to warn them before it's to late! No malice, No hate just the conditioning, tradition, injustice and indoctrination is so cemented in their minds that it's a bit frustrating at times!

You hit on something here. We talk about Alma 37:25, or recommend a book called, The Hidden Things of Darkness, as though these would be dark things to dwell upon or speculate about. But as the apostle Paul wrote:
1 Cor 4:
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And: (what is hid?)
2 Cor 4:
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.