Re: My wife and I are resigning from the church tomorrow
Posted: December 8th, 2023, 8:41 pm
by John Tavner
Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 7:47 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 4:21 pm
Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 3:36 pm
The point is that the Holy Ghost was received by the laying on of hands of the apostles, and in that instance, wasn't received beforehand by believers. Just one point of evidence that authority was needed to lay hands on people to give them the ordinance of receiving the Holy Ghost, and Priesthood authority is the same way. Just like marriage, you need the true loving relationship, and you also need the covenant and ordinance to make the relationship legal and binding in heaven.
Totally fine, in one instance it wasn't and in others it was. Cornelius and the Laminites are two points of evidence authority wasn't needed by someone else. If you notice the language actualy kind of demonstrates a sort of surprise that it hadn't fallen upon them yet. So the people likely lacked a bit of belief. They needed the laying on of hands to help them believe they could receive. IMagine hundreds of years of oppression being told you can't be like the jews and you are separate. It is a tough thing, so the jews come and say, yeah we are all equal now, beleive and lay hands on them.
I'm glad you brought up marriage, because we are teh bride of Christ- Does the groom not want to do anything for the bride? Or does the groom say "you can't speak to me?" The Spirit coming down is the confirmation- it doesn't make a relationship legal. A relationship is a relationship - As you grow in relationship and seek the Lord out it only grows in your knowledge of Him. Its why Jesus said "This is eternal life that they might KNOW thee, the eternal God and your Son whom you have sent." If you are relying on a piece of paper or hands laid on your head for relationship you are living far below your privilege.
I'm not against laying on of hands. Never have been, but I am against someone saying "you can't receive because no one laid their hands on your head." That is placing someone before my God and what He can and has done for me. I had hands laid upon my head and I can tell you I did not receive anything from those hands laid upon my head. It was me a few years later seeking out God in the secret place and I received from Him. So you can try and tell me God does something different, but I have literally experienced something else. So it is you talking from inexperience rather than from knowledge- you are repeating traditions you have been taught- but the reality there are many who are blessed from God and receive without any hands laid upon their head - so we should not "forbid" them from being baptized. It's ok that you ahve a wrong view we all have had one, but don't be so sure about yourself that you become like the apostles who "forbid another man from casting out in Jesus' name because he didn't follow them." Jesus responded "Forbid him not, for he who is not against me is with me and no one can do a miracle in my name and turn around and speak evil of me." If you want proof right there that hands aren't needed. That is your perfect proof. The dude wasn't even ordained and was doing the same as the Apostles. Preisthood is this : The power and authority to act in God's name. You ask God and get permission, you ahve His authority and power. Don't make it more complicated. It was the entire purpose for which Christ came- it was to restore us into relationship with the Father. Don't let your blind traditions prevent you from actually having relationship and more importantly don't you dare let it cause you to cause others to stumble into thinking they can't have a relationship with God because you "forbid" them.
Let's talk about the marriage example. You say a relationship is a relationship. And people might make that argument when saying they don't need to be married by any authority. Anyone can sleep together and make a baby, and that is their relationship, and an intimate one at that, but a marriage is more than just the relationship you have with someone. Marriage is a legal contract, that church and civil governments recognize under law, in order to grant them preferential rights. And for good reason. We as a society should legally recognize the marriage covenant, as it promotes the ideal family situation for children to be raised in, where a couple commits to raising their children together and reserving themselves for each other. The couple commits to live according to certain conditions, and society will reward and recognize them for that commitment. Marriage helps protect the rights of children and makes parents accountable for their children or their sexual behavior.
So, marriage contracts are a public pronouncement, not the relationship itself. They are designed to be recognized by law-abiding citizens of a group which desire to be governed by law. If a man and woman were stranded on an island together and wanted to have sexual relations, and they covenanted together to raise their children together and reserve themselves for one another, then they have an excuse not to be legally married by any authority. And let's say that they came to the Lord in prayer with their dilemma of no authority around, and the Lord "married" them or sealed them together without anyone else involved. Of course he could do that because of the circumstances. But that is not the ideal. We are looking at differences of the good (acceptable), better, and best situations God's people can be in, and in the best of God's scenarios, we are living together in large groups of people governed by law, and have people in authority, even if it is simply parental authority. But we know Jesus established Priesthood authority by establishing titles or offices in his church. We have examples of course of apostles, elders, priests, teachers, deacons, etc, all with different responsibilities and stewardships. So I find it unlikely that Jesus would give every believer every authority or stewardship unless of course you were the only believer around. And in some of these scripture stories, you do see lone individuals or families who are trying to come closer to God, and he reveals all his covenants to those individuals. You see small groups of people and a not an established church close by. But in the case where there is a large group of believers, you have those who hold titles and Priesthood authority, with the administration of the ordinances.
You mentioned not forbidding anyone from coming unto Christ, and I'm not suggesting we forbid anyone. But he has set the terms on how we come closer to him. And all those who have that close relationship with him and his spirit, but have yet to receive the binding ordinance and covenant, will have to do so in order to be with him, for that is the Law established in heaven. You said that you didn't receive anything when hands were laid on you, but you didn't receive anything when you received your marriage license either. It was just a piece of paper that had nothing to do with how you felt about you wife, other than you were proclaiming to your government and society of your commitment. And that is what the ordinances are for, as they proclaim to heaven and earth your commitment to follow Jesus, and with the laying on of hands by one with authority, you now have the right to receive from God the Holy Ghost always, just like you and your wife now have the right to consummate after you are legally married, and receive special privileges under the law. It's up to you to keep up that relationship that you've legally committed to.
So you and I have different definitions of relationship then if you think it is just sleeping together and making a baby. That is twisted. Marriage is covenantal - all that is yours is mine and all that is mine is yours. It doesn't matter about a piece of paper. It is you and your heart. Did you know that Common law marriage is a thing? Do you know what that is? It means you act like a marriage - you are married. It doesn't matter if they have a piece of paper or not. if I am covenantal with my wife I don't give two hoots what society says- because we are. Society can reject it and we can live that way regardless of whether or not they "reward" it. As Jesus said, I'm not looking for treasures on earth, but in heaven.
If you need someone other than your spouse to recognize your marriage you probably aren't getting married for the right reasons. That said, I'm not against a legal piece of paper, but my point isn't the paper it is the intent and actions of the heart- one can get legally married and not be in a marriage. In fact that happens all the time. Its why there are so many divorces and so many screwed up marriages. People marry for sex, they marry because they lack self-worth, they marry because they can't function by themselves, they marry because they want someone to take care of them, they marry for many reasons that aren't right, like just so they can get to the celestial kingdom. The paper isn't what makes it a marriage - the law isn't what makes it a marriage. It is your commitment. I guarantee you that God recognizes a marriage of two people who covenant with one another to become one flesh forever over someone who just gets a piece of paper.
That's fine that you have unbelief- like I said, we all have it, but it really doesn't matter that you "find it hard to believe" that just means you are living below your privilege... you should stop actively believing against that truth so you can enter into the covenantal marriage relationship with the Father that He wants with you- i.e. all that is mine is yours and all that is yours is mine. You should probably re-read Ephesians. The Whole purpose of those callings is so that all come unto the same point to be one with the Lord (like a covenantal marriage)- not to create division. I would invite you to grow in your relationship with God more, to be more intimate in your prayers, to read your scriptures not for head knowledge, but to know the Heart of God, so you can understand more of what God sees in you and others. To understand what He desires for you and others- the New Testament is full of that language and is beautiful. I would recommend another read. Additionally it is no wonder faith is dying. We run around and teach people they can be Sons of God, but at the same time teach them that they can't act like a Son or really believe they are a Son because of our own lack of faith in what God and His Son Jesus said all becaues they ahve a hard time believing that they inherit all the Father has and that Jesus was jsut the first born of many Sons.
You are forbidding because you tell them that their relationship isn't really a relationship and you don't even know their relationship you judge their relationship off of specific outward acts that must be done by a certain group of people. That is Telling someone to "stop" doing what they are doing for the Lord and if they are a child in the Lord, they will stumble because of that false teaching. it's why Jesus said to judge righteous judgment and to beware that we don't cause "little ones" to stumble. We don't realize how many people we have choked out of relationship with God because of our ridiculous requirements- when the requirement is much simpler. It's why iti s the good news.
He hasn't set those terms, you have and men have because they want control or are attempting to control a certain subset and because we don't understand scripture we think that our way is the only way, or best way and God can't work in any other way, not realizing that God is doing His work in a lot of places. I have given multiple examples found in the scriptures - your traditions are what are setting those terms and your unbelief. Again, all you are doing is repeating what someone has told you and what you've been taught, I get it, I was taught the same way- then I actually read the scriptures in context. As you get to know the Father, you realize how much your traditions get in the way of knowing Him- you think it is only in going to the Temple someone can receive and know God, when it is worshiping in Spirit and in truth that someone gets to know God. I know from experience- you are just repeating words that you've been taught. If you believe you'll get baptized once you know about it, it doesn't matter if it is done by yourself or someone else. Often it is done by someone else as they welcome a brother or sister in the gospel, joining a group of believers (wherever they are) because new believers are usually connected in with older believers, but it isn't required in that way. Again you are using words like "ordinances to proclaim to heaven and earth" as if God can't see what your commitment is to Him. The ordinances are more for us, not the Lord. Baptism helps us believe we can have a clear conscience, it is signifying and helping us to believe our flesh is dead and we are alive in the Spirit (Peter talks about this). Sacrament is all that is mine is yours and all that is yours is mine- and a reminder of all that Jesus did for us and what we can become through Him. Regardless, why do you care what is "ideal." and how did you come to the conclusion it is "ideal?" God is the judge not you. What we do is invite people to know God and enter into relationship with Him and that relationship is possible through Jesus Christ. Religion has created a set of rules that makes people thing if they don't "fit" in the mold then they aren't "living" right. I'll ask a question, have you ever prayed in tongues? Have you ever sung in tongues? Why or why not?
See love never fails. It isn't a "choice" once you are truly in covenant with God - it is how you are- it is a state of being. I don't need to choose, because that Is who I am and who God is in me. Intellectual knowledge lacks intimate knowledge. Intellectual knowledge is very different from knowing God. Most of us know about God, but few of us actually believe we can know Him. Few of us receive His love. On a daily basis how often do you feel separate from God? When you speak with God do you see yourself as less than? Or do you accept what He has done for you and see yourself as righteous and holy in His sight? Do you rejoice that He loves you, that you are clean and pure in His sight? Do you see yourself as beloved in His Sight? Do you rejoice you are reconciled and made friends with Him through Jesus Christ? Your prayers, are they prayers of someone intimate with God and expressing gratitude for His love towards you and others? or is it the position of a slave, but a slave who doesn't even know their master because the Master has told them repeatedly they are a Daughter? Rise up and be more than you are. Read the scriptures to know the heart of God and don't repeat what other people tell you. Live up to what God has called you to by believing it. You are more than you know because Jesus said so and His word is true and He can not lie. So start believing what He said- like if you believe you are Holy, blameless and above reproach in His Sight. Rejoice that you can enter into the throne room boldly. Dance in gratitude for His mercy, and rejoice glorying in the Lord, glorying that He loves others too in the same way. See your Husband as He sees Him. Live up to what He says He has called you to be. Don't forget you have been forgiven of past sins. Remain in forgiveness and rejoice in it!
As an aside, when one receives the Holy Ghost- they have consummated with the Lord. He is in them through HIs Spirit, He has placed His seed inside them- they are married - they are His bride. He is one with them. Yet most of us treat God and believe God as an earthly spouse- believing He gives them the silent treatment and cuts them off. "The Spirit left me" they say. Bollocks, the Spirit doesn't run away because you think you did something bad or people do bad things around you, if that were the case Jesus would have been walking in darkness all day, but we know He was the light and God says for us to be the Light too. Two things from that 1st It shows they haven't really read scriptures to know the heart of God. Two they don't realize how much God loves them- they don't fully understand why Jesus Christ gave His life and what it means to ahve the Spirit. We love because He loved us first. The mechanical relationship we have with God, grieves Him. He desires us to be intimate with Him to be friends with us, for us to be friends with Him. He didn't call us Sons and Daughters willy nilly. Cast off your traditions and see what He sees and the incredible love He has for the world- no longer droop in sin, but rejoice and glorify Him in word and deed, because His Spirit dwells in you.
Re: My wife and I are resigning from the church tomorrow
Posted: December 8th, 2023, 9:05 pm
by TheDuke
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 8:41 pm
If you need someone other than your spouse to recognize your marriage you probably aren't getting married for the right reasons.
I suppose you just don't know what a marriage is then? Not being married, but the marriage ceremony. You are ok on marriage covenant and such, who cares what others think. But as far back as antiquity the marriage (ceremony not to be confused with the marriage term of being married after the ceremony) is about a "public" acknowledgement of your commitments. If you're doing it in private, then it isn't a marriage ceremony, it is just some vows and pick another title don't overload an already overloaded term.
Example is the common law marriage. There is/was no ceremony so the definition is not of a marriage or wedding might be a better term for this initial bonding. It is a marriage that is legal for lawyers and divorce attorneys to have a hey day from, it is defined by the state laws, etc...
In this day and age a ceremony and public vows are just as important as in the past. In the past it was about naming an heir and the wife's rights. Today things are a bit different. Each marriage partner only gets a fraction of the estate, unlike original marriages where all went to the first wife via the first son, and the others get a pittance.
So, given less than about 1/3 of the married couples (had a legal ceremony) and well less than 15% of the rest, make it to old age, it would be pretty foolish to determine while young that you're the 1 in 7 that will be ok, I'm guessing 7 in 7 felt that way and from what I see about 4 in 7 still do for 25 years, yet things happen, often out of both parties control.
Just sort of tired of the naive prattling their knowledge, which does work, often, like 1 in 3 at best. Sorry, but unfortunately true.
Re: My wife and I are resigning from the church tomorrow
Posted: December 8th, 2023, 10:03 pm
by Sarah
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 8:41 pm
Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 7:47 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 4:21 pm
Totally fine, in one instance it wasn't and in others it was. Cornelius and the Laminites are two points of evidence authority wasn't needed by someone else. If you notice the language actualy kind of demonstrates a sort of surprise that it hadn't fallen upon them yet. So the people likely lacked a bit of belief. They needed the laying on of hands to help them believe they could receive. IMagine hundreds of years of oppression being told you can't be like the jews and you are separate. It is a tough thing, so the jews come and say, yeah we are all equal now, beleive and lay hands on them.
I'm glad you brought up marriage, because we are teh bride of Christ- Does the groom not want to do anything for the bride? Or does the groom say "you can't speak to me?" The Spirit coming down is the confirmation- it doesn't make a relationship legal. A relationship is a relationship - As you grow in relationship and seek the Lord out it only grows in your knowledge of Him. Its why Jesus said "This is eternal life that they might KNOW thee, the eternal God and your Son whom you have sent." If you are relying on a piece of paper or hands laid on your head for relationship you are living far below your privilege.
I'm not against laying on of hands. Never have been, but I am against someone saying "you can't receive because no one laid their hands on your head." That is placing someone before my God and what He can and has done for me. I had hands laid upon my head and I can tell you I did not receive anything from those hands laid upon my head. It was me a few years later seeking out God in the secret place and I received from Him. So you can try and tell me God does something different, but I have literally experienced something else. So it is you talking from inexperience rather than from knowledge- you are repeating traditions you have been taught- but the reality there are many who are blessed from God and receive without any hands laid upon their head - so we should not "forbid" them from being baptized. It's ok that you ahve a wrong view we all have had one, but don't be so sure about yourself that you become like the apostles who "forbid another man from casting out in Jesus' name because he didn't follow them." Jesus responded "Forbid him not, for he who is not against me is with me and no one can do a miracle in my name and turn around and speak evil of me." If you want proof right there that hands aren't needed. That is your perfect proof. The dude wasn't even ordained and was doing the same as the Apostles. Preisthood is this : The power and authority to act in God's name. You ask God and get permission, you ahve His authority and power. Don't make it more complicated. It was the entire purpose for which Christ came- it was to restore us into relationship with the Father. Don't let your blind traditions prevent you from actually having relationship and more importantly don't you dare let it cause you to cause others to stumble into thinking they can't have a relationship with God because you "forbid" them.
Let's talk about the marriage example. You say a relationship is a relationship. And people might make that argument when saying they don't need to be married by any authority. Anyone can sleep together and make a baby, and that is their relationship, and an intimate one at that, but a marriage is more than just the relationship you have with someone. Marriage is a legal contract, that church and civil governments recognize under law, in order to grant them preferential rights. And for good reason. We as a society should legally recognize the marriage covenant, as it promotes the ideal family situation for children to be raised in, where a couple commits to raising their children together and reserving themselves for each other. The couple commits to live according to certain conditions, and society will reward and recognize them for that commitment. Marriage helps protect the rights of children and makes parents accountable for their children or their sexual behavior.
So, marriage contracts are a public pronouncement, not the relationship itself. They are designed to be recognized by law-abiding citizens of a group which desire to be governed by law. If a man and woman were stranded on an island together and wanted to have sexual relations, and they covenanted together to raise their children together and reserve themselves for one another, then they have an excuse not to be legally married by any authority. And let's say that they came to the Lord in prayer with their dilemma of no authority around, and the Lord "married" them or sealed them together without anyone else involved. Of course he could do that because of the circumstances. But that is not the ideal. We are looking at differences of the good (acceptable), better, and best situations God's people can be in, and in the best of God's scenarios, we are living together in large groups of people governed by law, and have people in authority, even if it is simply parental authority. But we know Jesus established Priesthood authority by establishing titles or offices in his church. We have examples of course of apostles, elders, priests, teachers, deacons, etc, all with different responsibilities and stewardships. So I find it unlikely that Jesus would give every believer every authority or stewardship unless of course you were the only believer around. And in some of these scripture stories, you do see lone individuals or families who are trying to come closer to God, and he reveals all his covenants to those individuals. You see small groups of people and a not an established church close by. But in the case where there is a large group of believers, you have those who hold titles and Priesthood authority, with the administration of the ordinances.
You mentioned not forbidding anyone from coming unto Christ, and I'm not suggesting we forbid anyone. But he has set the terms on how we come closer to him. And all those who have that close relationship with him and his spirit, but have yet to receive the binding ordinance and covenant, will have to do so in order to be with him, for that is the Law established in heaven. You said that you didn't receive anything when hands were laid on you, but you didn't receive anything when you received your marriage license either. It was just a piece of paper that had nothing to do with how you felt about you wife, other than you were proclaiming to your government and society of your commitment. And that is what the ordinances are for, as they proclaim to heaven and earth your commitment to follow Jesus, and with the laying on of hands by one with authority, you now have the right to receive from God the Holy Ghost always, just like you and your wife now have the right to consummate after you are legally married, and receive special privileges under the law. It's up to you to keep up that relationship that you've legally committed to.
So you and I have different definitions of relationship then if you think it is just sleeping together and making a baby. That is twisted. Marriage is covenantal - all that is yours is mine and all that is mine is yours. It doesn't matter about a piece of paper. It is you and your heart. Did you know that Common law marriage is a thing? Do you know what that is? It means you act like a marriage - you are married. It doesn't matter if they have a piece of paper or not. if I am covenantal with my wife I don't give two hoots what society says- because we are. Society can reject it and we can live that way regardless of whether or not they "reward" it. As Jesus said, I'm not looking for treasures on earth, but in heaven.
If you need someone other than your spouse to recognize your marriage you probably aren't getting married for the right reasons. That said, I'm not against a legal piece of paper, but my point isn't the paper it is the intent and actions of the heart- one can get legally married and not be in a marriage. In fact that happens all the time. Its why there are so many divorces and so many screwed up marriages. People marry for sex, they marry because they lack self-worth, they marry because they can't function by themselves, they marry because they want someone to take care of them, they marry for many reasons that aren't right, like just so they can get to the celestial kingdom. The paper isn't what makes it a marriage - the law isn't what makes it a marriage. It is your commitment. I guarantee you that God recognizes a marriage of two people who covenant with one another to become one flesh forever over someone who just gets a piece of paper.
That's fine that you have unbelief- like I said, we all have it, but it really doesn't matter that you "find it hard to believe" that just means you are living below your privilege... you should stop actively believing against that truth so you can enter into the covenantal marriage relationship with the Father that He wants with you- i.e. all that is mine is yours and all that is yours is mine. You should probably re-read Ephesians. The Whole purpose of those callings is so that all come unto the same point to be one with the Lord (like a covenantal marriage)- not to create division. I would invite you to grow in your relationship with God more, to be more intimate in your prayers, to read your scriptures not for head knowledge, but to know the Heart of God, so you can understand more of what God sees in you and others. To understand what He desires for you and others- the New Testament is full of that language and is beautiful. I would recommend another read. Additionally it is no wonder faith is dying. We run around and teach people they can be Sons of God, but at the same time teach them that they can't act like a Son or really believe they are a Son because of our own lack of faith in what God and His Son Jesus said all becaues they ahve a hard time believing that they inherit all the Father has and that Jesus was jsut the first born of many Sons.
You are forbidding because you tell them that their relationship isn't really a relationship and you don't even know their relationship you judge their relationship off of specific outward acts that must be done by a certain group of people. That is Telling someone to "stop" doing what they are doing for the Lord and if they are a child in the Lord, they will stumble because of that false teaching. it's why Jesus said to judge righteous judgment and to beware that we don't cause "little ones" to stumble. We don't realize how many people we have choked out of relationship with God because of our ridiculous requirements- when the requirement is much simpler. It's why iti s the good news.
He hasn't set those terms, you have and men have because they want control or are attempting to control a certain subset and because we don't understand scripture we think that our way is the only way, or best way and God can't work in any other way, not realizing that God is doing His work in a lot of places. I have given multiple examples found in the scriptures - your traditions are what are setting those terms and your unbelief. Again, all you are doing is repeating what someone has told you and what you've been taught, I get it, I was taught the same way- then I actually read the scriptures in context. As you get to know the Father, you realize how much your traditions get in the way of knowing Him- you think it is only in going to the Temple someone can receive and know God, when it is worshiping in Spirit and in truth that someone gets to know God. I know from experience- you are just repeating words that you've been taught. If you believe you'll get baptized once you know about it, it doesn't matter if it is done by yourself or someone else. Often it is done by someone else as they welcome a brother or sister in the gospel, joining a group of believers (wherever they are) because new believers are usually connected in with older believers, but it isn't required in that way. Again you are using words like "ordinances to proclaim to heaven and earth" as if God can't see what your commitment is to Him. The ordinances are more for us, not the Lord. Baptism helps us believe we can have a clear conscience, it is signifying and helping us to believe our flesh is dead and we are alive in the Spirit (Peter talks about this). Sacrament is all that is mine is yours and all that is yours is mine- and a reminder of all that Jesus did for us and what we can become through Him. Regardless, why do you care what is "ideal." and how did you come to the conclusion it is "ideal?" God is the judge not you. What we do is invite people to know God and enter into relationship with Him and that relationship is possible through Jesus Christ. Religion has created a set of rules that makes people thing if they don't "fit" in the mold then they aren't "living" right. I'll ask a question, have you ever prayed in tongues? Have you ever sung in tongues? Why or why not?
See love never fails. It isn't a "choice" once you are truly in covenant with God - it is how you are- it is a state of being. I don't need to choose, because that Is who I am and who God is in me. Intellectual knowledge lacks intimate knowledge. Intellectual knowledge is very different from knowing God. Most of us know about God, but few of us actually believe we can know Him. Few of us receive His love. On a daily basis how often do you feel separate from God? When you speak with God do you see yourself as less than? Or do you accept what He has done for you and see yourself as righteous and holy in His sight? Do you rejoice that He loves you, that you are clean and pure in His sight? Do you see yourself as beloved in His Sight? Do you rejoice you are reconciled and made friends with Him through Jesus Christ? Your prayers, are they prayers of someone intimate with God and expressing gratitude for His love towards you and others? or is it the position of a slave, but a slave who doesn't even know their master because the Master has told them repeatedly they are a Daughter? Rise up and be more than you are. Read the scriptures to know the heart of God and don't repeat what other people tell you. Live up to what God has called you to by believing it. You are more than you know because Jesus said so and His word is true and He can not lie. So start believing what He said- like if you believe you are Holy, blameless and above reproach in His Sight. Rejoice that you can enter into the throne room boldly. Dance in gratitude for His mercy, and rejoice glorying in the Lord, glorying that He loves others too in the same way. See your Husband as He sees Him. Live up to what He says He has called you to be. Don't forget you have been forgiven of past sins. Remain in forgiveness and rejoice in it!
As an aside, when one receives the Holy Ghost- they have consummated with the Lord. He is in them through HIs Spirit, He has placed His seed inside them- they are married - they are His bride. He is one with them. Yet most of us treat God and believe God as an earthly spouse- believing He gives them the silent treatment and cuts them off. "The Spirit left me" they say. Bollocks, the Spirit doesn't run away because you think you did something bad or people do bad things around you, if that were the case Jesus would have been walking in darkness all day, but we know He was the light and God says for us to be the Light too. Two things from that 1st It shows they haven't really read scriptures to know the heart of God. Two they don't realize how much God loves them- they don't fully understand why Jesus Christ gave His life and what it means to ahve the Spirit. We love because He loved us first. The mechanical relationship we have with God, grieves Him. He desires us to be intimate with Him to be friends with us, for us to be friends with Him. He didn't call us Sons and Daughters willy nilly. Cast off your traditions and see what He sees and the incredible love He has for the world- no longer droop in sin, but rejoice and glorify Him in word and deed, because His Spirit dwells in you.
Did I say that marriage was only about making babies? No, I gave that aspect of marriage as an example of how intimate a relationship can be physically if you choose to have a relationship with someone. Obviously I believe that a marriage relationship should be much more than that, based on all the principles the Lord taught, to love our spouse as ourselves etc., and that developing that true, Christ-like love for our spouse is more important than anything physical.
The main question remains, you either believe the ordinances are necessary or you do not. You choose to believe they are not necessary. But I know through revelation that these ordinances are essential for the hereafter.
You talk to me in this post as if I don't know the Lord and his ways, or that I haven't experienced all he has to offer, while you have. You also accuse me of simply repeating what I've been taught, as if I've never questioned anything, or looked for something better. Ironically you sound just like every Evangelical I've talked to about these subjects, and are repeating the same pop-consensus doctrine which dominates American christianity. So it seems to me that you've at least been influenced by this way of thinking, and are repeating it to some extent. And like most evangelicals, they've been taught that Latter-Day-Saints can't really have a true relationship with the Lord because we are focused on legalism and working and earning our way to heaven. This is a false assumption and false accusation. Just because someone believes for example there is necessity in baptism or the marriage ceremony as Duke pointed out, or the sealing covenant/contract and recognition of this commitment by some kind of authority, doesn't mean they can't have an amazing marriage relationship or relationship with Jesus with perfect love. In fact, the love can be even more perfect, because it is sealed by covenant. You need both. You need to develop perfect love, trust, faith, communication, and unity, but also have the legal recognition by the government of heaven. You must follow the laws of each Kingdom of Heaven if you want to abide there.
Re: My wife and I are resigning from the church tomorrow
Posted: December 8th, 2023, 10:21 pm
by John Tavner
Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:03 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 8:41 pm
Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 7:47 pm
Let's talk about the marriage example. You say a relationship is a relationship. And people might make that argument when saying they don't need to be married by any authority. Anyone can sleep together and make a baby, and that is their relationship, and an intimate one at that, but a marriage is more than just the relationship you have with someone. Marriage is a legal contract, that church and civil governments recognize under law, in order to grant them preferential rights. And for good reason. We as a society should legally recognize the marriage covenant, as it promotes the ideal family situation for children to be raised in, where a couple commits to raising their children together and reserving themselves for each other. The couple commits to live according to certain conditions, and society will reward and recognize them for that commitment. Marriage helps protect the rights of children and makes parents accountable for their children or their sexual behavior.
So, marriage contracts are a public pronouncement, not the relationship itself. They are designed to be recognized by law-abiding citizens of a group which desire to be governed by law. If a man and woman were stranded on an island together and wanted to have sexual relations, and they covenanted together to raise their children together and reserve themselves for one another, then they have an excuse not to be legally married by any authority. And let's say that they came to the Lord in prayer with their dilemma of no authority around, and the Lord "married" them or sealed them together without anyone else involved. Of course he could do that because of the circumstances. But that is not the ideal. We are looking at differences of the good (acceptable), better, and best situations God's people can be in, and in the best of God's scenarios, we are living together in large groups of people governed by law, and have people in authority, even if it is simply parental authority. But we know Jesus established Priesthood authority by establishing titles or offices in his church. We have examples of course of apostles, elders, priests, teachers, deacons, etc, all with different responsibilities and stewardships. So I find it unlikely that Jesus would give every believer every authority or stewardship unless of course you were the only believer around. And in some of these scripture stories, you do see lone individuals or families who are trying to come closer to God, and he reveals all his covenants to those individuals. You see small groups of people and a not an established church close by. But in the case where there is a large group of believers, you have those who hold titles and Priesthood authority, with the administration of the ordinances.
You mentioned not forbidding anyone from coming unto Christ, and I'm not suggesting we forbid anyone. But he has set the terms on how we come closer to him. And all those who have that close relationship with him and his spirit, but have yet to receive the binding ordinance and covenant, will have to do so in order to be with him, for that is the Law established in heaven. You said that you didn't receive anything when hands were laid on you, but you didn't receive anything when you received your marriage license either. It was just a piece of paper that had nothing to do with how you felt about you wife, other than you were proclaiming to your government and society of your commitment. And that is what the ordinances are for, as they proclaim to heaven and earth your commitment to follow Jesus, and with the laying on of hands by one with authority, you now have the right to receive from God the Holy Ghost always, just like you and your wife now have the right to consummate after you are legally married, and receive special privileges under the law. It's up to you to keep up that relationship that you've legally committed to.
So you and I have different definitions of relationship then if you think it is just sleeping together and making a baby. That is twisted. Marriage is covenantal - all that is yours is mine and all that is mine is yours. It doesn't matter about a piece of paper. It is you and your heart. Did you know that Common law marriage is a thing? Do you know what that is? It means you act like a marriage - you are married. It doesn't matter if they have a piece of paper or not. if I am covenantal with my wife I don't give two hoots what society says- because we are. Society can reject it and we can live that way regardless of whether or not they "reward" it. As Jesus said, I'm not looking for treasures on earth, but in heaven.
If you need someone other than your spouse to recognize your marriage you probably aren't getting married for the right reasons. That said, I'm not against a legal piece of paper, but my point isn't the paper it is the intent and actions of the heart- one can get legally married and not be in a marriage. In fact that happens all the time. Its why there are so many divorces and so many screwed up marriages. People marry for sex, they marry because they lack self-worth, they marry because they can't function by themselves, they marry because they want someone to take care of them, they marry for many reasons that aren't right, like just so they can get to the celestial kingdom. The paper isn't what makes it a marriage - the law isn't what makes it a marriage. It is your commitment. I guarantee you that God recognizes a marriage of two people who covenant with one another to become one flesh forever over someone who just gets a piece of paper.
That's fine that you have unbelief- like I said, we all have it, but it really doesn't matter that you "find it hard to believe" that just means you are living below your privilege... you should stop actively believing against that truth so you can enter into the covenantal marriage relationship with the Father that He wants with you- i.e. all that is mine is yours and all that is yours is mine. You should probably re-read Ephesians. The Whole purpose of those callings is so that all come unto the same point to be one with the Lord (like a covenantal marriage)- not to create division. I would invite you to grow in your relationship with God more, to be more intimate in your prayers, to read your scriptures not for head knowledge, but to know the Heart of God, so you can understand more of what God sees in you and others. To understand what He desires for you and others- the New Testament is full of that language and is beautiful. I would recommend another read. Additionally it is no wonder faith is dying. We run around and teach people they can be Sons of God, but at the same time teach them that they can't act like a Son or really believe they are a Son because of our own lack of faith in what God and His Son Jesus said all becaues they ahve a hard time believing that they inherit all the Father has and that Jesus was jsut the first born of many Sons.
You are forbidding because you tell them that their relationship isn't really a relationship and you don't even know their relationship you judge their relationship off of specific outward acts that must be done by a certain group of people. That is Telling someone to "stop" doing what they are doing for the Lord and if they are a child in the Lord, they will stumble because of that false teaching. it's why Jesus said to judge righteous judgment and to beware that we don't cause "little ones" to stumble. We don't realize how many people we have choked out of relationship with God because of our ridiculous requirements- when the requirement is much simpler. It's why iti s the good news.
He hasn't set those terms, you have and men have because they want control or are attempting to control a certain subset and because we don't understand scripture we think that our way is the only way, or best way and God can't work in any other way, not realizing that God is doing His work in a lot of places. I have given multiple examples found in the scriptures - your traditions are what are setting those terms and your unbelief. Again, all you are doing is repeating what someone has told you and what you've been taught, I get it, I was taught the same way- then I actually read the scriptures in context. As you get to know the Father, you realize how much your traditions get in the way of knowing Him- you think it is only in going to the Temple someone can receive and know God, when it is worshiping in Spirit and in truth that someone gets to know God. I know from experience- you are just repeating words that you've been taught. If you believe you'll get baptized once you know about it, it doesn't matter if it is done by yourself or someone else. Often it is done by someone else as they welcome a brother or sister in the gospel, joining a group of believers (wherever they are) because new believers are usually connected in with older believers, but it isn't required in that way. Again you are using words like "ordinances to proclaim to heaven and earth" as if God can't see what your commitment is to Him. The ordinances are more for us, not the Lord. Baptism helps us believe we can have a clear conscience, it is signifying and helping us to believe our flesh is dead and we are alive in the Spirit (Peter talks about this). Sacrament is all that is mine is yours and all that is yours is mine- and a reminder of all that Jesus did for us and what we can become through Him. Regardless, why do you care what is "ideal." and how did you come to the conclusion it is "ideal?" God is the judge not you. What we do is invite people to know God and enter into relationship with Him and that relationship is possible through Jesus Christ. Religion has created a set of rules that makes people thing if they don't "fit" in the mold then they aren't "living" right. I'll ask a question, have you ever prayed in tongues? Have you ever sung in tongues? Why or why not?
See love never fails. It isn't a "choice" once you are truly in covenant with God - it is how you are- it is a state of being. I don't need to choose, because that Is who I am and who God is in me. Intellectual knowledge lacks intimate knowledge. Intellectual knowledge is very different from knowing God. Most of us know about God, but few of us actually believe we can know Him. Few of us receive His love. On a daily basis how often do you feel separate from God? When you speak with God do you see yourself as less than? Or do you accept what He has done for you and see yourself as righteous and holy in His sight? Do you rejoice that He loves you, that you are clean and pure in His sight? Do you see yourself as beloved in His Sight? Do you rejoice you are reconciled and made friends with Him through Jesus Christ? Your prayers, are they prayers of someone intimate with God and expressing gratitude for His love towards you and others? or is it the position of a slave, but a slave who doesn't even know their master because the Master has told them repeatedly they are a Daughter? Rise up and be more than you are. Read the scriptures to know the heart of God and don't repeat what other people tell you. Live up to what God has called you to by believing it. You are more than you know because Jesus said so and His word is true and He can not lie. So start believing what He said- like if you believe you are Holy, blameless and above reproach in His Sight. Rejoice that you can enter into the throne room boldly. Dance in gratitude for His mercy, and rejoice glorying in the Lord, glorying that He loves others too in the same way. See your Husband as He sees Him. Live up to what He says He has called you to be. Don't forget you have been forgiven of past sins. Remain in forgiveness and rejoice in it!
As an aside, when one receives the Holy Ghost- they have consummated with the Lord. He is in them through HIs Spirit, He has placed His seed inside them- they are married - they are His bride. He is one with them. Yet most of us treat God and believe God as an earthly spouse- believing He gives them the silent treatment and cuts them off. "The Spirit left me" they say. Bollocks, the Spirit doesn't run away because you think you did something bad or people do bad things around you, if that were the case Jesus would have been walking in darkness all day, but we know He was the light and God says for us to be the Light too. Two things from that 1st It shows they haven't really read scriptures to know the heart of God. Two they don't realize how much God loves them- they don't fully understand why Jesus Christ gave His life and what it means to ahve the Spirit. We love because He loved us first. The mechanical relationship we have with God, grieves Him. He desires us to be intimate with Him to be friends with us, for us to be friends with Him. He didn't call us Sons and Daughters willy nilly. Cast off your traditions and see what He sees and the incredible love He has for the world- no longer droop in sin, but rejoice and glorify Him in word and deed, because His Spirit dwells in you.
Did I say that marriage was only about making babies? No, I gave that aspect of marriage as an example of how intimate a relationship can be physically if you choose to be close to someone. Obviously I believe that a marriage relationship should be much more than that, based on all the principles the Lord taught, to love our spouse as ourselves etc., and that developing that true, Christ-like love for our spouse is more important than anything physical.
The main question remains, you either believe the ordinances are necessary or you do not. You choose to believe they are not necessary. But I know through revelation that these ordinances are essential for the hereafter.
You talk to me in this post as if I don't know the Lord and his ways, or that I haven't experienced all he has to offer, while you have. You also accuse me of simply repeating what I've been taught, as if I've never questioned anything, or looked for something better. Ironically you sound just like every Evangelical I've talked to about these subjects, and are repeating the same pop-consensus doctrine which dominates American christianity. So it seems to me that you've at least been influenced by this way of thinking, and are repeating it to some extent. And like most evangelicals, they've been taught that Latter-Day-Saints can't really have a true relationship with the Lord because we are focused on legalism and working and earning our way to heaven. This is a false assumption and false accusation. Just because someone believes for example their is necessity in baptism or the marriage ceremony as Duke pointed out, or the sealing covenant/contract and recognition of this commitment by some kind of authority, doesn't mean they can't have an amazing marriage with perfect love. In fact, the love can be even more perfect, because it is sealed by covenant. You need both. You need to develop perfect love, trust, faith, communication, and unity, but also have the legal recognition by the government of heaven. You must follow the laws of each Kingdom of Heaven if you want to abide there.
No, I think Mormons can havea true relationship with God, I had one but they do get too focused on legalism and most Mormons do think they ahve to earn your way to heaven. The lack faith, so they try to prove their faith through their works rather than doing works out of faith. Here is what many old people I know say "I have a temple recommend, and I go to church, read my scriptures, so I'm going to heaven" If you think those things are what get you into heaven, you're in to a rude awakening. It usually comes on their death bed, where they ask "have I done enough" Do you really believe there is a God." Doing those things can help, if done with the right intent, but those things don't mean anything. Too many people get sealed and stick with their spouse all becaue "they were sealed and they need toget to the celestial Kingdom" Their heart isn't there. I grew up in the church- don't tell me what is a false assumption or accusation. I hear it all the time and see it all the time. They don't strive to enter into the rest of the Lord, they work to be approved by the Lord. When His blood already approves us- it is a twisted perspective of God. Maybe you don't ahve that view, but I know half my ward has that view right now- the past 4 wards I've had had that view as well. Few people receive the Love of God.
I also don't think I have experience all that is offered from God, I am learning. But if you answer those questions I asked it will tell yourself if you are living up to what you ought to.
See you're already misunderstanding what I"m saying. I'm not saying one shouldn't be baptized or be married. I'm saying the intent of hte heat is waht matters. Show me where I said one who believes in baptism isn't necessary. God is the authority who recognizes it. I never said they can't have an amazing marriage with perfect love - you are creating straw men and missing what I"m saying. Read again what I said. You are saying THEY MUST have someone with Authority who YOU believe has Keys. I'm telling you they don't. That It is the intent that matters. What did I say about marriage Covenant Sarah? What is covenant? You think it is someone doing it to you. I'm saying it is what happens between people. You think it is required a man says it is legal to be in heaven. I'm telling you two people can make that covenant (they are man and woman) and it is legal in heaven. What do you think the Laws of Heaven are Sarah? Last I checked Jesus said ALL the law and the prophets is Love God with all you are and love your neighbor as yourself. You want to live by a lower law... go right ahead. I'm just inviting you to live a higher law and experience more with GOd. Not in a condescending way, becaue I don't hink I"m better than you, I legitimately am trying to show you there is more so you can actually grow in your relationship with God. Like I said, take it or leave it. It's true.
Also doesn't matter to me your revelation. I'm telling you my experience- which is a witness it is a testimony, rather than just a "feel Good" feeling. You can take it or leave it - it is truth you "revelation" needs fruit. I've seen mine bear fruit in my life and others around me that I've shared what i've learned.
I'll repeat these questions for you to think about and hopefully you read and ponder them: Few of us receive His love. On a daily basis how often do you feel separate from God? When you speak with God do you see yourself as less than? Or do you accept what He has done for you and see yourself as righteous and holy in His sight? Do you rejoice that He loves you, that you are clean and pure in His sight? Do you see yourself as beloved in His Sight? Do you rejoice you are reconciled and made friends with Him through Jesus Christ? Your prayers, are they prayers of someone intimate with God and expressing gratitude for His love towards you and others? or is it the position of a slave, but a slave who doesn't even know their master because the Master has told them repeatedly they are a Daughter?
Your relationship is important to God. Rise up and accept it. With that you can have the last word.
Re: My wife and I are resigning from the church tomorrow
Posted: December 9th, 2023, 3:08 pm
by SunriseBoy
Yeah, I spent 50 years in the church and had my name removed from the records. I couldn't reconcile my testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ and his Atoning sacrifice and hubistic conceit of practically all of the church. The lost, homeless, and hungry are essentially of no concern of theirs.
As far as I'm concerned the church is just a corporation using 'Jesus' as their shopfront.
They are hard hearted, uncompassionate & greedy for money...witness the (well over) $100 Billion they have salted away, and got sprung by the IRS for not disclosing a chunk of it.
I think of all the souls in the favelas in Rio, and Sao Paulo, and the poor souls on Smokey Mountain, outside Manila, and there are these red-necked, religious dudes acting like corporate barrons with the most eye watering property, and investment portfolios...all developed on the back of tithing back in the 70's & 80's. And it was a few bankers who were 'higher ups' in the church that got Las Vegas off the ground. What hoot for moral values.
Pretty repugnant in my opinion.
Re: My wife and I are resigning from the church tomorrow
Posted: December 10th, 2023, 12:42 am
by Seed Starter
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 2:35 pm
Robin Hood wrote: ↑December 9th, 2023, 2:17 pm
John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 8:41 pm
So you and I have different definitions of relationship then if you think it is just sleeping together and making a baby. That is twisted. Marriage is covenantal - all that is yours is mine and all that is mine is yours. It doesn't matter about a piece of paper. It is you and your heart. Did you know that Common law marriage is a thing? Do you know what that is? It means you act like a marriage - you are married. It doesn't matter if they have a piece of paper or not. if I am covenantal with my wife I don't give two hoots what society says- because we are. Society can reject it and we can live that way regardless of whether or not they "reward" it. As Jesus said, I'm not looking for treasures on earth, but in heaven.
If you need someone other than your spouse to recognize your marriage you probably aren't getting married for the right reasons. That said, I'm not against a legal piece of paper, but my point isn't the paper it is the intent and actions of the heart- one can get legally married and not be in a marriage. In fact that happens all the time. Its why there are so many divorces and so many screwed up marriages. People marry for sex, they marry because they lack self-worth, they marry because they can't function by themselves, they marry because they want someone to take care of them, they marry for many reasons that aren't right, like just so they can get to the celestial kingdom. The paper isn't what makes it a marriage - the law isn't what makes it a marriage. It is your commitment. I guarantee you that God recognizes a marriage of two people who covenant with one another to become one flesh forever over someone who just gets a piece of paper.
That's fine that you have unbelief- like I said, we all have it, but it really doesn't matter that you "find it hard to believe" that just means you are living below your privilege... you should stop actively believing against that truth so you can enter into the covenantal marriage relationship with the Father that He wants with you- i.e. all that is mine is yours and all that is yours is mine. You should probably re-read Ephesians. The Whole purpose of those callings is so that all come unto the same point to be one with the Lord (like a covenantal marriage)- not to create division. I would invite you to grow in your relationship with God more, to be more intimate in your prayers, to read your scriptures not for head knowledge, but to know the Heart of God, so you can understand more of what God sees in you and others. To understand what He desires for you and others- the New Testament is full of that language and is beautiful. I would recommend another read. Additionally it is no wonder faith is dying. We run around and teach people they can be Sons of God, but at the same time teach them that they can't act like a Son or really believe they are a Son because of our own lack of faith in what God and His Son Jesus said all becaues they ahve a hard time believing that they inherit all the Father has and that Jesus was jsut the first born of many Sons.
You are forbidding because you tell them that their relationship isn't really a relationship and you don't even know their relationship you judge their relationship off of specific outward acts that must be done by a certain group of people. That is Telling someone to "stop" doing what they are doing for the Lord and if they are a child in the Lord, they will stumble because of that false teaching. it's why Jesus said to judge righteous judgment and to beware that we don't cause "little ones" to stumble. We don't realize how many people we have choked out of relationship with God because of our ridiculous requirements- when the requirement is much simpler. It's why iti s the good news.
He hasn't set those terms, you have and men have because they want control or are attempting to control a certain subset and because we don't understand scripture we think that our way is the only way, or best way and God can't work in any other way, not realizing that God is doing His work in a lot of places. I have given multiple examples found in the scriptures - your traditions are what are setting those terms and your unbelief. Again, all you are doing is repeating what someone has told you and what you've been taught, I get it, I was taught the same way- then I actually read the scriptures in context. As you get to know the Father, you realize how much your traditions get in the way of knowing Him- you think it is only in going to the Temple someone can receive and know God, when it is worshiping in Spirit and in truth that someone gets to know God. I know from experience- you are just repeating words that you've been taught. If you believe you'll get baptized once you know about it, it doesn't matter if it is done by yourself or someone else. Often it is done by someone else as they welcome a brother or sister in the gospel, joining a group of believers (wherever they are) because new believers are usually connected in with older believers, but it isn't required in that way. Again you are using words like "ordinances to proclaim to heaven and earth" as if God can't see what your commitment is to Him. The ordinances are more for us, not the Lord. Baptism helps us believe we can have a clear conscience, it is signifying and helping us to believe our flesh is dead and we are alive in the Spirit (Peter talks about this). Sacrament is all that is mine is yours and all that is yours is mine- and a reminder of all that Jesus did for us and what we can become through Him. Regardless, why do you care what is "ideal." and how did you come to the conclusion it is "ideal?" God is the judge not you. What we do is invite people to know God and enter into relationship with Him and that relationship is possible through Jesus Christ. Religion has created a set of rules that makes people thing if they don't "fit" in the mold then they aren't "living" right. I'll ask a question, have you ever prayed in tongues? Have you ever sung in tongues? Why or why not?
See love never fails. It isn't a "choice" once you are truly in covenant with God - it is how you are- it is a state of being. I don't need to choose, because that Is who I am and who God is in me. Intellectual knowledge lacks intimate knowledge. Intellectual knowledge is very different from knowing God. Most of us know about God, but few of us actually believe we can know Him. Few of us receive His love. On a daily basis how often do you feel separate from God? When you speak with God do you see yourself as less than? Or do you accept what He has done for you and see yourself as righteous and holy in His sight? Do you rejoice that He loves you, that you are clean and pure in His sight? Do you see yourself as beloved in His Sight? Do you rejoice you are reconciled and made friends with Him through Jesus Christ? Your prayers, are they prayers of someone intimate with God and expressing gratitude for His love towards you and others? or is it the position of a slave, but a slave who doesn't even know their master because the Master has told them repeatedly they are a Daughter? Rise up and be more than you are. Read the scriptures to know the heart of God and don't repeat what other people tell you. Live up to what God has called you to by believing it. You are more than you know because Jesus said so and His word is true and He can not lie. So start believing what He said- like if you believe you are Holy, blameless and above reproach in His Sight. Rejoice that you can enter into the throne room boldly. Dance in gratitude for His mercy, and rejoice glorying in the Lord, glorying that He loves others too in the same way. See your Husband as He sees Him. Live up to what He says He has called you to be. Don't forget you have been forgiven of past sins. Remain in forgiveness and rejoice in it!
As an aside, when one receives the Holy Ghost- they have consummated with the Lord. He is in them through HIs Spirit, He has placed His seed inside them- they are married - they are His bride. He is one with them. Yet most of us treat God and believe God as an earthly spouse- believing He gives them the silent treatment and cuts them off. "The Spirit left me" they say. Bollocks, the Spirit doesn't run away because you think you did something bad or people do bad things around you, if that were the case Jesus would have been walking in darkness all day, but we know He was the light and God says for us to be the Light too. Two things from that 1st It shows they haven't really read scriptures to know the heart of God. Two they don't realize how much God loves them- they don't fully understand why Jesus Christ gave His life and what it means to ahve the Spirit. We love because He loved us first. The mechanical relationship we have with God, grieves Him. He desires us to be intimate with Him to be friends with us, for us to be friends with Him. He didn't call us Sons and Daughters willy nilly. Cast off your traditions and see what He sees and the incredible love He has for the world- no longer droop in sin, but rejoice and glorify Him in word and deed, because His Spirit dwells in you.
Common-law marriage isn't really a thing. People often think it is, but it's simply another name for co-habitation.
Objection! Asked and answered.
So Seed Starter Any new news?
All good. I've taken a few valuable things from the back and forth so I don't mind. I figured I'd have a chance to jump back in soon. Our letter has been notarized and I will send it signature required early next week. I have been studying baptism of fire over the last few days. I feel like I'm preparing and being prepared for mine. My heart is nearly broken. The church claims my covenants disappear the moment they say they do. I don't feel that is true. I get the distinct impression that the names written in the books of men won't always match the names in the Lord's book. Some will of course but I think there are many Mormons and others who pay the baptism of fire very little mind if any when in fact that is the most important part.
The Lord can choose who to accept regardless of the traditions of men. The ordinances used by Mormons may be acceptable to the Lord but ordinances of other Christians may be as well. I see these things as minor details compared to whether the Lord accepts our heart offering. That is the most important thing to Him in my opinion. How many ways are there to say I'm sorry? How many of those ways count to the one hearing the apology? Probably many. I think the Lord is capable of letting us know if our offering is acceptable or not. These scriptural events below don't involve the laying on of hands. There was no authority ensuring that the fire sat upon them in a certain way, no certificate, no covenant path checkboxes, and nobody questioned the legitimacy of the ordinance. The Lord arranged all of it just fine on His own. These scriptures inspire me.
Acts 2
2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them
cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all
filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the
Spirit gave them utterance.
3 Nephi 9
20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me
a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit,
him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.
Helaman 5
40 And it came to pass that the Lamanites said unto him: What shall we do, that this cloud of darkness may be removed from overshadowing us?
41 And Aminadab said unto them: You must repent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have faith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, and Amulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this,
the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you.
42 And it came to pass that they all did begin to cry unto the voice of him who had shaken the earth; yea, they did cry even until the cloud of darkness was dispersed.
43 And it came to pass that when they cast their eyes about, and saw that
the cloud of darkness was dispersed from overshadowing them, behold, they saw that they were encircled about, yea every soul, by a
pillar of fire.
44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea,
they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and
they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.
45 And behold,
the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could
speak forth marvelous words.
46 And it came to pass that there came a voice unto them, yea,
a pleasant voice, as if it were a whisper, saying:
47
Peace, peace be unto you, because of your faith in my Well Beloved, who was from the foundation of the world.
I have felt darkness overshadowing me these last few years but I've felt the Savior's love and His peace as well. Step 1 was getting my attention. I don't know when my baptism of fire will happen but I have faith that it will. I'm sharing my feelings and opinions. I don't intend to oppose anyone else's views on this. The covenant path is a very comforting concept for certain personalities. I think the perception is that the CP is a guarantee. There is a reliance on the physical checking of boxes along the path which will produce a known outcome. What if one's understanding of this box checking makes people think everything is fine when it really isn't? If someone believes they got baptized and received the HG but there is never any baptism of fire that's a problem? Missing 20% of math skills every year might soon lead to a huge deficit in math and becoming lost in advanced areas when basic concepts aren't understood completely. This is me but I think I was led into this. Perhaps we could slow it down to ensure nobody has skipped a precept in the rush to race down the path. Doing certain things at certain ages may not be appropriate.
Re: My wife and I are resigning from the church tomorrow
Posted: December 10th, 2023, 1:19 am
by Seed Starter
Here is our resignation letter for anyone who would like to read it. For anyone who would like to use any part of it in their resignation letter feel free. A few of the official business portions are from Reluctant Watchman's letter because I thought they were well-written and direct. Like the part about covenant validity after resignation and asking for this to be done within 5 days so there are no unnecessary delays. Some may think it's pointless to offer our reasoning for leaving. I do not. I'm going to save this for future generations and for anyone who finds their way to this post. We didn't leave due to a lack of faith in the Lord, quite the contrary. I want that known Although our emotions run deep here we know this isn't our final destination and the Lord has big plans and much work for us to do. I would encourage anyone to ask God what is right for you and do that. Many here have been told to stay for now and many see the LDS church as the place they need to be. I would post a link to a pdf of this letter but I'm choosing not to host it on any of my domains for privacy reasons.
**************
December 7, 2023
Member Records Division, LDS Church
50 E North Temple, Room 1372
SLC, UT 84150-5310
Names Redacted
To whom it may concern,
We would like to express our gratitude for the loving members of the church past and present who have helped us along our journey to follow Christ through their prayers, examples, and significant sacrifices of time and energy. We love and appreciate our brothers and sisters in the church and we expect to continue our association with these wonderful people outside of the church. In 2020 we witnessed church leadership make decisions that concerned us greatly. We continued to be faithful members holding sacrament meetings in our home when this was allowed. In 2020 the entire world seemed to be losing their collective minds. We felt God’s love and protection and we had a front-row seat to the world to see how the philosophies of men dealt with problems. It wasn’t pretty.
We saw the news media generate massive amounts of fear. We saw unconstitutional laws and policies enforced and later rescinded. We saw members of the church look to the philosophies of men for answers. We saw truth appear to fluctuate before our eyes. We saw chaos in the streets. We saw our church march in lockstep with the new normal. We saw members following leaders they trusted. We saw members and non-members willingly and self-righteously give up our freedoms for their safety. By and large the church didn’t rely on the power of the priesthood to heal the sick. In many cases, members were specifically told not to visit each other.
Little did we know this would be the first of many warnings that caused us to pray for answers. Something felt very wrong about what was going on. As we listened for answers we received confirmation that something was wrong and we should remain at home instead of going back to church. We were told not to partake of the MRNA treatment when it became available. After years of waiting on the Lord, we know that we must separate ourselves from the church on this 10th anniversary of the sealing of our family.
This letter is our formal resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and is effective immediately. We hereby withdraw our consent to being treated as members and withdraw our consent to being subject to church rules, policies, beliefs, and discipline. As such we want our names, contact information, and all other notes, annotations, archives, or other records of any kind containing our names, permanently and completely removed from the records of the church within 5 business days of receipt of this notice.
The church handbook states that our resignation "cancels the effects of baptism and confirmation, withdraws the priesthood held by a male member, and revokes temple blessings." We strongly and heartily disagree with this statement. Our covenants were made with God, not man, and we intend to keep those covenants (and any future covenants) that we deem as being taught and authorized by the Lord.
Our resignation should be processed immediately, without any waiting periods. We expect this matter to be handled promptly, with respect, and with full confidentiality. We will decide when and with whom this information is to be shared. If anyone from the local church leadership would like to reach out to us, we request any initial communication be done by email which can be sent to redacted. The only contact from church headquarters should be a mailed notification that our request has been processed. We want anyone who may read this letter to know that we have strong testimonies of the atonement of Christ, the immeasurable love our Father in Heaven has for us, and the power of faith. We are excited for what God has in store for us and we believe it is our mission to share the joy of Christ’s gospel with the world. We are saddened by the choices that some have made but we honor the principle of agency.
Over the following pages, we reveal several warnings we’ve received confirmation of from the Holy Ghost since 2020. We haven’t included all of them here to limit the length of this letter but we want anyone who may see this letter to understand a little about our journey. Typically the warning starts with a feeling that causes us to ponder and pray. After praying we await further guidance to confirm the truth of things. God is good and He can give us discernment in all things. For those who have no interest in our journey, the names and membership numbers of those resigning their church membership are included at the end of this letter. This letter will be notarized on the back of the last page.
1st Warning:
In April 2020 the United Nations Interagency Taskforce on Religion and Sustainable Development (IATF) released a statement addressing Covid-19 that was endorsed by the members of the Multi Faith Advisor Council (MFAC). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is listed as a member of MFAC. However, I found it quite strange to see the church listed as “Church of Latter-Day Saints.” Since the church is careful about the use of its name I struggled to understand why the name of Jesus Christ would be omitted from the legal name of the church.
Here are a few important excerpts from the IATF statement:
“Unity, solidarity, international cooperation, and global coordinated action, as called for by the United Nations Secretary-General, are essential to address the pandemic. A comprehensive approach, taking into consideration the complex and multidimensional nature of this crisis, is crucial to addressing immediate and future challenges in a manner that ensures that no one is left behind. The IATF, therefore, calls upon all relevant stakeholders to address all implications of this crisis through a whole-of-society, human-centered approach that prioritizes health safety, the right to access health services, social protection, and cohesion.”
“Solidarity and compassion should be promoted both within and between communities of faith. In this context, the IATF appreciates the strong engagement of its Multi-Faith Advisory Council (MFAC) and calls upon its members to remain strongly engaged with their respective constituencies to assist them in preparing for and responding to the current crisis, including by disseminating science-based information, facts, and evidence in accordance with UN policies and frameworks, and in particular with the guidance of the World Health Organization on COVID-19.
IATF members look forward to working closely with the MFAC in this regard. IATF members call on religious leaders and faith-based organizations to extend their support and – within their respective spheres of influence and authority – promote and advocate with Member States and other stakeholders for the Global Humanitarian Response Plan for COVID-19 and to help implement the Plan so that essential humanitarian relief operations can reach populations in the most fragile and vulnerable contexts.”
The church’s pre-existing membership in the MFAC and close association with the secret combination known as the United Nations has resulted in the church leading its members astray. The church used “soft power” to influence its membership to go along with harmful lockdowns, masking, and dangerous experimental MRNA treatments (see Biderman's Chart of Coercion). Using the church’s position of authority to push a WHO agenda is wrong. When the church holding the keys to heaven makes a recommendation, faithful members comply. In 1969 President Ezra Taft Benson published a book called, “An Enemy Hath Done This.” The title of chapter 14 is, “The United Nations – Planned Tyranny.” In this chapter, a prophet of the Lord said, “The U.N.’s potential for evil far outweighs its potential for good.”
In Ether 8:25 we are warned about modern secret combinations:
“For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.”
Rather than awakening members to these secret combinations, the current leadership of the church largely ignores the prophetic warnings of the Book of Mormon. They are helping to expand the influence of secret combinations. It breaks my heart to see current church leadership publicly rejoice in their association with the United Nations even hosting the president of the General Assembly of the United Nations, Csaba Korosi at church headquarters in May of this year. What was obvious to a prophet of the Lord over 50 years ago seems to be completely alien to current leadership.
In the April 2023 general conference of the church Elder Allen D. Haynie gave a talk titled, “A Living Prophet for the Latter Days.” In his talk elder Haynie said, “President Russell M. Nelson has testified that “God’s long-established pattern of teaching His children through prophets assures us that He will bless each prophet and that He will bless those who heed prophetic counsel.” So the key is to follow the living prophet. Brothers and sisters, unlike vintage comic books and classic cars, prophetic teachings do not become more valuable with age. That is why we should not seek to use the words of past prophets to dismiss the teachings of living prophets.”
We believe Elder Haynie’s talk was designed to encourage members to disregard the words of past prophets such as Ezra Taft Benson when they conflict with the actions and words of Russell M. Nelson. Prophetic teachings aren’t anything like vintage comic books or classic cars. Nobody is claiming that prophetic teachings become more valuable with age. The 10 commandments have as much value as they did when they came forth. Elder Haynie created a strawman argument about “selective rejection of prophetic counsel” while at the same time making a case that the teachings of a living prophet have more value than past prophetic counsel. Elder Haynie might consider the value of this statement, “That is why we should not seek to use the words of living prophets to dismiss the teachings of past prophets.”
Elder Haynie used President Nelson’s testimony of God’s pattern of teaching His children through prophets to testify of the purpose of prophets and then jumped to the conclusion that “the key is following the living prophet” but President Nelson said nothing about a preference for listening to past or living prophets. 2nd Nephi 28:31 says, “Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.” The Holy Ghost has testified to us that something is wrong in the church. Elder Haynie’s talk teaches members to be more reliant on men than the Holy Ghost. As shown in 2nd Nephi we will be cursed when we do this.
We want to avoid being cursed. We can contrast 2nd Nephi with what Russell Nelson has said multiple times, “…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." This false doctrine is from the January 2022 European Area Devotional and repeated in a February 2022 California Area Conference. The Lord told us that we shouldn’t trust any man completely unless the Holy Ghost confirms the truthfulness of the precepts. The church never teaches members that the leaders can lead them astray. Following men who teach doctrines contrary to Christ puts us on the wrong team. We reject false doctrine.
2nd Warning
On July 10, 2020, the Utah area presidency released a statement that is consistent with the UN IATF directives. The statement said, “The effects of this escalating health crisis are being felt everywhere, with incidents of COVID-19 infection rising dramatically, especially in the United States, including in Utah. Latter-day Saints are not immune.”
“We note with appreciation the care exhibited by our members in returning to sacrament meetings wearing face masks. Now we ask all Latter-day Saints in the Utah Area to be good citizens by wearing face coverings when in public. Doing so will help promote the health and general welfare of all.”
We wondered why the area presidency would generate more fear and immediately jump to the ignorant assumption that Latter-day Saints might think they’re immune to COVID-19. Then we see manipulative language being used by clarifying what “good citizens” should do. By default anyone not going along with masking is a bad citizen. Just a few months prior government agencies said that masks wouldn’t be helpful and by July authorities were sure masks helped. This sort of divisive language is not Christ-like. Many good members I know were treated as second-class citizens and even removed from callings over the mask issue. Of course, the blame was placed on these members and they were considered less faithful. 2020 was a time to show our neighbors love and forces including the church helped to isolate members from one another. This isolation was extremely damaging to so many people. The church bent to the pressure of the world instead of leading. There are thousands of us out here silently mourning the actions of a church we once relied upon.
Warning 3:
On August 12, 2021, the First Presidency sent us the following message:
“Dear Brothers and Sisters:
We find ourselves fighting a war against the ravages of COVID-19 and its variants, an unrelenting pandemic. We want to do all we can to limit the spread of these viruses. We know that protection from the diseases they cause can only be achieved by immunizing a very high percentage of the population.
To limit exposure to these viruses, we urge the use of face masks in public meetings whenever social distancing is not possible. To provide personal protection from such severe infections, we urge individuals to be vaccinated. Available vaccines have proven to be both safe and effective.
We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. Please know of our sincere love and great concern for all of God’s children.”
We believe that classifying this as a war is manipulative language and completely inappropriate coming from ecclesiastical leaders. The MRNA treatment (vaccine) was once claimed by some to limit the spread of Covid-19 but that turned out to be false as evidenced by many “vaccinated” individuals getting Covid-19 multiple times. We know that natural immunity from Covid-19 is typically longer lasting than MRNA treatments so for the First Presidency to say “protection from the disease can only be achieved by immunizing” is false. Urging individuals to be vaccinated on this level is irresponsible since a person’s medical history and risk level vary.
If someone dies from the vaccine will the church be responsible for that death? The MRNA treatments may have been deemed safe and effective by someone but we found out later the damage these treatments can cause. The truth is an mRNA treatment has never been released on this scale and emergency authorization was needed to start vaccinating people. The MRNA treatment wasn’t tested to the extent that other true vaccines were. Young athletes dropped on the field due to cardiac issues and aggressive cancers became more common after the mRNA treatments were available to the general public.
And again our leaders encourage us to follow the philosophies of men instead of following the Spirit. The hubris of man is one of the most destructive forces on this planet. I was sick and I was healed. COVID-19 is a secret combination. In 2nd Nephi 28:14 we read about the modern church, “They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.” In 2022 Russell Nelson said, “What does it mean to overcome the world? It means overcoming the temptation to care more about the things of this world than the things of God. It means trusting the doctrine of Christ more than the philosophies of men. It means delighting in truth, denouncing deception, and becoming “humble followers of Christ.” It means choosing to refrain from anything that drives the Spirit away. It means being willing to “give away” even our favorite sins.”
Russell Nelson has so far refused to denounce the deception of the COVID-19 response or he is unaware of such which causes many of us to question his connection to God. Isaiah 29 teaches us about people who claim to follow Christ but have their hearts removed far from Him:
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Russell Nelson has never renounced his membership in the secret society known as Skull and Bones. Instead of using his membership in multiple secret societies at the University of Utah as a warning to all members of the church Mr. Nelson and other church leaders keep silent about their membership. Skull and Bones, also known as The Order, Order 322, or The Brotherhood of Death, is an undergraduate senior secret student society at Yale University with a branch at the U of U. If Russell Nelson is who he says he and others say he is he would denounce the deception of secret societies. Jesus has made it possible for us to repent. That is between him and God. If a once member of The Brotherhood of Death is leading this church he must disavow such groups or let people continue to believe there’s no problem with these associations.
Warning 4:
On February 21, 2023, the church issued a misleading statement about the SEC settlement. The church said, “Since 2000, Ensign Peak received and relied upon legal counsel regarding how to comply with its reporting obligations while attempting to maintain the privacy of the portfolio. As a result, Ensign Peak established separate companies (LLCs) that each filed Forms 13F instead of a single aggregated filing. Ensign Peak and the Church believe that all securities required to be reported were included in the filings by the separate companies.
In June 2019, the SEC first expressed concern about Ensign Peak’s reporting approach. Ensign Peak adjusted its approach and began filing a single aggregated report. Since that time, 13 quarterly reports have been filed in full accordance with SEC requirements.
This settlement relates to how the forms were filed previously. Ensign Peak and the Church have cooperated with the government over a period of time as we sought resolution.
We affirm our commitment to comply with the law, regret mistakes made, and now consider this matter closed.”
We’ve seen all of the publicly available information on this case. We know how the SEC was made aware of the filing practices of EPA and it wasn’t through their admission of guilt and desire to rectify the situation. The church went to great lengths to hide shell companies in various states for a few decades before a researcher was able to see that the church owned the shell company domains. Then a whistleblower working for EPA told the SEC what was going on. The church claims that EPA “received and relied upon legal counsel regarding how to comply with its reporting obligations.” It is obvious to any thinking individual who has read the SE law that what the church was doing was against the law. Some members are so clueless that they think this has something to do with taxes. Some members are so programmed that they refuse to look for the truth.
Certainly, a church with highly paid legal counsel and a first counselor in the First Presidency who was a law professor and a justice of the Utah Supreme Court could figure out how to obey this simple law. They didn’t. When the church’s SEC statement says, ”As a result, Ensign Peak established separate companies (LLCs) that each filed Forms 13F instead of a single aggregated filing. Ensign Peak and the Church believe that all securities required to be reported were included in the filings by the separate companies.” they are misleading the members. The lawbreaking had nothing to do with securities not being reported. The church could have used as many companies as they wanted to report the investments. The problem was the business manager of each shell company was asked to sign that they had investment discretion over the investments listed on Form 13F.
The business managers had no investment discretion because they were just figureheads for the company. In some cases, they didn’t even have a list of the investments they were signing for. The church asked men to lie to hide the fact that these investments were connected to the church so people wouldn’t find out how much money the church had amassed. The church signed off on this for two decades. The official SEC settlement document makes it clear that the church auditing department warned the presiding bishopric twice about the inappropriateness of reporting in this way. The church continued to report investments in this way. Near the end of the SEC statement, the church claims to have immediately corrected its reporting. We believe the church knew they were doing it wrong and they calculated that when/if they were caught they would just pay a fine and consider the matter closed. Paying $5 million in fines is cheaper than losing out on 20 years of tithing. The simplicity of the law makes creative legal endeavors look highly suspicious.
The repentance process the church leadership preaches about doesn’t allow for simply considering matters closed. If the leadership of the church blames bad legal advice for their mistakes they have no interest in repentance. After breaking the law for two decades the church says, “We affirm our commitment to comply with the law, regret mistakes made.” This wasn’t a mistake. They knew exactly what they were doing. LDS children are taught to memorize the articles of faith. The 12th article says, “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” If various leaders can be misled for two decades by lawyers they aren’t listening to God. Honoring the law is a higher bar than simply obeying the law. When church leaders disregard their own words of warning we are faced with a decision to continue following men or Christ. We will choose to follow Christ.
Warning 5:
On March 22nd the church sent an email to its members that contained multiple donation metrics from the “Caring for Those in Need - 2022 Annual Report.” This was good. However, on the same day, I saw that KSL (the church) had a story written about their charitable giving along with a link to the 48-page report published by the church. Now we had a dilemma. Sending this data to members about their donations is one thing but telling the world is another. In Matthew 6 Jesus says:
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.”
Near the top of the church press release the first presidency said:
“As Christ’s Church, the First Presidency said in the report, the faith is simply doing what the Savior of the world would do.”
The savior clearly said not to do what they did by trumpeting their giving to the world on their news outlet. That quote is blasphemous in this context because they did the opposite of what the Savior said. The Savior didn’t add any qualifiers to what he said. He didn’t say you can trumpet your alms if it will help missionary work or if it will help with PR. He said, “Let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth.” Furthermore, he said if you trumpet your alms then the glory of men is your reward. If you do it in secret The Father will reward thee openly. We know which reward we would prefer. When the First Presidency does this they put the church in condemnation or at the very least limit the blessings of the church. Surely this slows the gathering of Israel as well.
Certainly if questioning members with basic knowledge of scripture like us can see this the leaders should see it. Of course, they know Matthew 6. That leaves us with the conclusion that they did it in defiance of the Savior. The strange thing about this is we knew it was wrong in our hearts when we saw the KSL story the same night we received the church email but didn’t know what scripture said it was wrong. We found it within a few minutes. When we see church leadership error in basic ways like this it’s difficult to watch these men proclaim the gospel and continue to trust them.
Warning 6:
On Friday, November 3rd, 2023 an Arizona Superior Court judge dismissed a high-profile child sexual abuse lawsuit against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ruling that church officials who knew that Paul Adams, a parishioner, was sexually abusing his daughter had no duty to report the abuse to police or social service agencies because the information was received during a spiritual confession. In a prepared statement, the church said, “We are pleased with the Arizona Superior Court’s decision granting summary judgment for the Church and its clergy and dismissing the plaintiffs’ claims.”
A young girl and a 6-month-old were sexually abused as a result of two bishops keeping their mouths shut about the abuse for years. There was nothing but the person answering the church hotline and a church-broke bishop standing in the way of reporting the abuse and saving these children from years of trauma. Tithing dollars fund this satanic activity of keeping quiet. There is no explaining this away. The LDS church is PLEASED with the decision? Leadership needs to step down over this. How can men who allow abusers to keep abusing and who take pleasure in this decision be trusted with any sacred keys? The reality is the church told those bishops to do nothing and that allowed for children to get traumatized. How we act shouldn't come down to what we can legally get away with. These scriptures warn us about people who appear righteous on the outside but are unclean on the inside.
“27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.”
“28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.”
Here are a few excerpts from the church's handbook as they relate to repentance and church membership councils:
Three Purposes of Church Membership Restrictions or Withdrawal
1. Help protect others
2. Help a person access the redeeming power of Jesus Christ through repentance
3. Protect the integrity of the Church
32.2.1
“Help Protect Others
The first purpose is to help protect others. Sometimes a person poses a physical or spiritual threat. Predatory behaviors, physical harm, sexual abuse, substance abuse, fraud, and apostasy are some of the ways this can occur. With inspiration, a bishop or stake president acts to protect others when someone poses a threat in these and other serious ways (see Alma 5:59–60).”
Alma 5:59–60
59 For what shepherd is there among you having many sheep doth not watch over them, that the wolves enter not and devour his flock? And behold, if a wolf enter his flock doth he not drive him out? Yea, and at the last, if he can, he will destroy him.”
60 And now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you; and if you will hearken unto his voice he will bring you into his fold, and ye are his sheep; and he commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf to enter among you, that ye may not be destroyed.”
And
32.2.3
“Protect the Integrity of the Church
The third purpose is to protect the integrity of the Church. Restricting or withdrawing a person’s Church membership may be necessary if his or her conduct significantly harms the Church (see Alma 39:11). The integrity of the Church is not protected by concealing or minimizing serious sins—but by addressing them.”
32.4.5
“Reporting to Government Authorities
Some people who are repenting have broken civil or criminal laws. In some cases, government authorities are not aware of this. Bishops and stake presidents encourage members to follow the law and report such matters when required. Leaders also counsel members to obtain competent legal advice when reporting. The Church’s policy is to obey the law.
In many places, priesthood leaders are required by law to report some illegal behaviors of which they become aware. For example, some states and countries require that child abuse be reported to law enforcement authorities.
In some countries, the Church has established a confidential abuse help line to assist bishops and stake presidents. These leaders should promptly call the helpline about every situation in which a person may have been abused—or is at risk of being abused (see 38.6.2.1). It is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.”
Are they calling the legal hotline to see if a sexual predator abusing their child is against the law or to help the victim? Does helping the victim include instructing bishops to keep quiet? It says above that, "The integrity of the Church is not protected by concealing or minimizing serious sins—but by addressing them." Most moral humans would assume that getting the predator away from the victim is how sin is "addressed" in these cases. If they don't want to call the police because it will cost the church money in a lawsuit they are complicit in the abuse. If the bishop called the police in the Arizona case there would be no lawsuit against the church because the church did the right thing. The bishop didn't directly put his hands on the girls, the father did. We’re saddened by leadership who preach one thing but allow the opposite. Hiding abuse in a state that allows reporting is no accident. The church shouldn’t use lawyers to distance themselves from the moral responsibility of protecting children whenever possible. Knowingly allowing abuse to continue isn’t a mistake, it is anti-Christ behavior.
It pains our hearts to know that while child sexual abuse is kept secret by church leadership these supposed men of God remove the membership of people who they deem guilty of apostasy, “repeatedly acting in clear and deliberate public opposition to the Church, its doctrine, its policies, or its leaders.” As outlined above we believe the church and its leaders act in direct opposition to the Gospel of Christ regularly but none of them are called into a membership council over their opposition. The Book of Mormon warns us of corrupt churches in 2 Nephi 28:
11 Yea, they have all gone out of the away; they have become corrupted.
12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.
13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!
When members or leaders of the church oppose or reject the Gospel of Christ they are guilty of apostasy. Disagreeing with men and their policies in public is necessary for men and women of conscience when those men and their policies are incongruent with the teachings of Christ. Removing good people from the records for doing what is right and letting the consequences follow places the judges of Israel in danger of judgment. Ejecting people from the church who sincerely fear for the direction of the church and voice their concerns to warn their neighbors deserve to be heard without the threat of excommunication. The church has become an echo chamber of fear which we believe will only hasten the corruption of our church. If nobody can speak openly with others about what is happening within the church without fear of reprisal then common consent of the ignorant is what the church will end up with. We can’t change the church but we refuse to remain root-bound in the gospel.
We love Jesus Christ and accept Him as the only one who can save us. Perhaps this letter is destined for the shredder at the church legal department but we know that God knows our hearts.
With Hope,
Redacted Names
Please remove the following names, contact information, and all other notes, annotations, archives, or other records of any kind containing our names, permanently and completely from the records of the church within 5 business days of receipt of this notice.
Redacted Names
Re: My wife and I are resigning from the church tomorrow
Posted: December 10th, 2023, 7:05 am
by spiritMan
Seed Starter wrote: ↑December 10th, 2023, 1:19 am
Here is our resignation letter for anyone who would like to read it.
I appreciate your letter.
One of the challenges with name removal/resignation and leaving the Church in general is that the options are pretty limited for the future; especially for someone who is still Christian, believes in God and desires to be a moral individual.
Typical LDS thought and theology on God the Father, Christ the Son of God, Holy Spirit is different than the vast majority of Christianity.
The biggest difference being that the Father has a physical body. Most other Christian religions believe that Christ became Incarnate (i.e. God the Son became flesh but that God the Father is not flesh).
Divinization or Theosis is not widely taught in most Western Christian religions.
Clearly BoM as well as JS is regarded as heretical in almost all of Christianity.
The more esoteric aspects of LDS (create worlds after this life, three degrees of glory, Temple sealing/marriage) are not found.
So for someone who believes in Christ what does the after leaving the LDS Church look like?
1) Go nowhere for Church on Sunday, simply meet with family or by self and read scriptures, say prayers to bless bread and water.
2) Find a non-Brighamite Church...Bickertons, etc. ; few and far between and they all reject Temples, but you might find BoM as Scripture.
3) Attend another Christian denomination.
a) Sadly, given the theological differences b/w LDS and other denominations, coming right out and stating, "I'm former Mormon", may not be the best approach.
b) To be integrated into this other Christian body will require a silence of or rejection of many LDS theological/scriptural aspects.
c) The style of worship these days for a lot of church's is very different these days. LDS services look very old-school protestant, with the exception that individuals other than the pastor speak. Many, many, many Christian services are nothing more than a glorified soft RB&B rock concert with lyrics about Jesus. Obviously not all, but a lot of them are like that. Then finding a service that isn't woke is a lot harder these days. Methodists = woke, Lutherian = woke, Presbyterian = woke. Sure there are congregations of each that aren't (and the GMC vs. the UMC), Baptist are generally pretty non-woke, but a lot of rock-style. Don't forget the mega-churches with hundreds of people attending. You can go Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, but those services look very different as they are very liturgical based.
All that to say; it's a tough spot to be in for someone who believes in the OT/NT/BoM/PoGP/D&C to be somewhere else.
