LDS Freedom Forum

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:36 am

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:26 am

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:18 am

Yes, the Lord can do as he pleases, and in that case they were in a whole different world so to speak, but for our time, there is only one who holds keys to perform all the ordinances.

Reluctant Watchman knows that those two groups of Apostles were separated by continents and he is creating a strawman argument. By the way, the Lord has absolute power to do this.

Jerusalem had Apostles. Nephite Bountiful had disciples. They are not the same. That is why Christ gave them different names.

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:55 am

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:36 am

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:26 am

Reluctant Watchman knows that those two groups of Apostles were separated by continents and he is creating a strawman argument. By the way, the Lord has absolute power to do this.

Jerusalem had Apostles. Nephite Bountiful had disciples. They are not the same. That is why Christ gave them different names.

Is there any scriptural evidence that the Nephite disciples operated under the direction of the Jerusalem apostles? Did they call in on Zoom meetings for PPI's and quorum meetings? Did Mormon write to the apostles in Jerusalem and seek their counsel as he watched the church in America fall into apostasy around him?

We can play pretty little word games and make lots of assumptions to try and make the LDS version of priesthood keys jive with the scriptural record, or we can simply accept the word of God and acknowledge that Christ gave direct authority to the twelve whom he chose and ordained here in the Americas, and that those twelve and their successors in no way operated under the direction of anyone but the Lord himself. Not Peter. Not Paul.

The LDS doctrine of "keys" is mostly hogwash and speculation.

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:42 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:38 am

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:21 am

You might study gospel dispensations, there is no Halfness.

I have studied. The word Keys makes an appearance ONLY in this dispensation and it isn't even used consistently within the same context through out this "dispensation". Words mean things. So why use "fullness of priesthood keys" There MUST be a less than fullness of preisthood keys if that is the case. Otherwise they just are, or aren't. Anytime I speak with God and receive revelation, I am receiving a "Gospel dispensation" Why? because God is good. Gospel = good news. I have received a dispensing of good news. Words matter, we just made them mean something they aren't because we accepted what someone else told us without looking at things in context or actually studied it out with the intent to know the heart of God.

What do you think the Lord meant when he gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom?

Seed Starter wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 9:42 pm I'm nearly done with my resignation letter. I will share when I'm done. I'm not leaving this forum but I'm done white-knuckling my membership in the LDS church. The cognitive dissonance is too much for me to tolerate a minute longer. I'm feeling a great deal of weight this evening. Not because I'm unsure about my decision but because I feel locked in the cage of my birth. Pulling myself through the bars is painful. I've been a member for over half a century (my entire life) and I know what to expect from some family and even some friends. I feel conditioned not to do what I'm doing and I never thought it would be so uncomfortable to reject the conditioning.

I've spent over 3 years praying, studying the scriptures, pondering, and researching this decision. I'm extremely sad because in my opinion the corporate church contradicts the Gospel of Christ and many of its leaders aren't who they said they were. I feel like my trust was taken advantage of in many ways. I love Christ and His gospel. He is my rock and the only way to salvation. I believe in the Book of Mormon. I believe the Holy Ghost can confirm the truth of all things. The crazy thing is my love for those two things is why I'm separating myself from the corporate church. I believe I've come to understand the difference between a mistake and wanton disobedience to Christ. Spiritually speaking I am a rootbound tree growing in a pot inside of a house. I want to be outside where I can stretch my roots deeply into the soil and I want to produce good fruit and shade for the weary. I want to protect smaller plants. I want to grow strong enough to handle the wind in my branches. I want the sunlight to shine down on me. I did not put myself in the pot but that pot is limiting my growth in many ways.

I realize many members are on this site and I have no ill will toward them. I appreciate all of the things I've been taught by all of you wonderful people. Even in disagreement, there are lessons for me to learn. I appreciate the acts of kindness I've experienced here. This feels like my home ward. Thank you! I would appreciate anyone who feels like praying for me and my family to do so.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 9:54 am

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 9:46 am
The New Testament and Book of Mormon reference authority given by the laying on of hands. We are also as the children of Israel, who had a system for who held Priesthood authority to perform ordinances. The Lord does not have to personally visit each individual to make covenants with them.

Yes, those records do mention the process, but my point is that simply the action does not confer rights or authority. It must be commissioned by the Lord. IMO it doesn't have to be a personal visit, but certainly a commission received via personal revelation.

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:34 am

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:57 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:50 pm

Interesting how “my take” is nearly the opposite, after studying the scriptures, specifically the teachings of Christ.

JST Mark 9 would suggest that he won’t “replace” a leader, he invited us to trust in the Lord alone.

The righteous will remain on the Earth. In fact, the Lord specifically prophesied that he’d remove his gospel from wicked and apostate religions.

The Lord can and will raise up any number of prophets from various segment of society and cultures. The Lord and nearly all ancient prophets prophesied about the derelict nature of modern religious leaders. The LDS org is the epitome of apostasy and dereliction.

President Wilford Woodruff said: “The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty” (Official Declaration 1).

Circular logic. A man who claimed to be prophet told you that neither he nor any other man who claimed to be a prophet could lead you astray.

The scriptures however are full of warnings about false prophets and fallen prophets.

The claim is doctrinally and scripturally wrong.

I took have studied both scripture and LDS history extensively.

The answer is clearly the opposite of what the LDS church teaches on this matter.

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 12:04 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:42 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:38 am

I have studied. The word Keys makes an appearance ONLY in this dispensation and it isn't even used consistently within the same context through out this "dispensation". Words mean things. So why use "fullness of priesthood keys" There MUST be a less than fullness of preisthood keys if that is the case. Otherwise they just are, or aren't. Anytime I speak with God and receive revelation, I am receiving a "Gospel dispensation" Why? because God is good. Gospel = good news. I have received a dispensing of good news. Words matter, we just made them mean something they aren't because we accepted what someone else told us without looking at things in context or actually studied it out with the intent to know the heart of God.

What do you think the Lord meant when he gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom?

Are you talking about the New Testament? The part where Jesus is like "WHo do you say I am" And then Peter receives revelation that Jesus is the Christ and Jesus makes a pun and says that as a little rock (the masculine version), he has that revelation, but the revelation is the Rock (the feminine version of the word) is what Christ will build His church on. And then Jesus says and I"m gonna give you the keys? That part? Meaning Jesus is just telling Peter He is going to give Him the same authority that He has the power on earth as in heaven the same authority He tells the other apostles He is giving them, the same authority he later tells them to teach and give to all who believe. That same authority and power he gives to ALL of them 2 chapters later? That same authority and Power He tells them to teach all. Go and make disciples.( people just like me, Jesus). I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but have you ever wondered why we "bear" the name of Christ? Or at least we are supposed to?

Here put another way. Jesus for 3.5 years tells His Apostles and 70 to declare teh Kingdom of God is at hand, the Kingdom of God is within you. He saying "Hey I"m giving you authority to teach the kingdom of God" so that the Kingdom of Heaven is established through all of you first through Peter, you ahve to be converted and realize that You are the Kingdom, where you go you can increase the Kingdom of Heaven i.e. establish Zion - just as I have shown you I am one with the Father, so are you, be the Kingdom as I am the Kingdom. I represent the Father, You as a Son that doesn't see it yet, also represent the Father.

I find it interesting that we as a religion have taken one word, and established an entire religion around it, without looking at the rest of the context. That is scriptural railroading. Jesus "Hey from one Son, many Sons... except you guys can't really be Sons or have the authority of a Son (Jesus didn't really say that, He said the opposite). All authority I give to you... now go and teach others EVERYTHING I have taught you. What we struggle with most is unbelief.

But according to LDS tradition Maybe He has given His power unto man? It's just laying on of hands. Yeah, let's preach that God has done His work He established his "order"? So God can't do anything except through us.

2 nephi 28: 5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men; 6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

Jesus all the time is like "I have power over death and hades" calls it keys in Rev. Yep, He has power over death and hell. We as His Sons do too because we bear His name. Us though are like "ummm keys" Yeah, I HAVE THE ONLY SET OF KEYS, you MUST listen to me or you can't be saved/ receive exaltation or whatever. Oh... I guess Jesus doesn't have the power... unless maybe he means He is giving us the authority and power the same way He has.. which is forgive as I have forgiven, love as I have loved and you have the power to set people free and teach them who I am so they might be set free - here are keys to teach them who I am because you bear my name - What you bind on earth is bound in heaven.. what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven... Wait, you mean if I don't forgive then I can actually bind someone on earth... yeah... possibly, thankfully those that do Father's will are more powerful than those who don't, so don't forgive, lose whatever authority you ahve because you aren't actually bearing His name. Or bear His name and loose the chains that bind people, set them free from earth so they can be free in heaven and live in the righteousness of God.

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:55 am

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:36 am

kirtland r.m. wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:26 am

Reluctant Watchman knows that those two groups of Apostles were separated by continents and he is creating a strawman argument. By the way, the Lord has absolute power to do this.

Jerusalem had Apostles. Nephite Bountiful had disciples. They are not the same. That is why Christ gave them different names.

Is there any scriptural evidence that the Nephite disciples operated under the direction of the Jerusalem apostles? Did they call in on Zoom meetings for PPI's and quorum meetings? Did Mormon write to the apostles in Jerusalem and seek their counsel as he watched the church in America fall into apostasy around him?

We can play pretty little word games and make lots of assumptions to try and make the LDS version of priesthood keys jive with the scriptural record, or we can simply accept the word of God and acknowledge that Christ gave direct authority to the twelve whom he chose and ordained here in the Americas, and that those twelve and their successors in no way operated under the direction of anyone but the Lord himself. Not Peter. Not Paul.

The LDS doctrine of "keys" is mostly hogwash and speculation.

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:58 am

ransomme wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:35 am

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 8:34 am

The Church is true and still holds Priesthood authority despite any faults or past mistakes by leaders or members. The people are the Church, and we are a family. And we all know no family is perfect, and neither is any leader or member in the church. But the apostleship has not been taken away as it was before. The ordinances and covenants are gifts from God that seal you legally into his family. You need both the relationship with God, and the binding covenant done through Priesthood Keys to make your relationship legal or binding in heaven.

The fact that there is an end to the time of the Gentiles because they reject the Gospel, by definition means that the Church will not survive. It already walks in much apostasy. The blind are leading the blind.

Someone has to bring the gospel to the gentiles. So when did the time end or has it yet?

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:44 pm

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:55 am

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:36 am

Jerusalem had Apostles. Nephite Bountiful had disciples. They are not the same. That is why Christ gave them different names.

Is there any scriptural evidence that the Nephite disciples operated under the direction of the Jerusalem apostles? Did they call in on Zoom meetings for PPI's and quorum meetings? Did Mormon write to the apostles in Jerusalem and seek their counsel as he watched the church in America fall into apostasy around him?

We can play pretty little word games and make lots of assumptions to try and make the LDS version of priesthood keys jive with the scriptural record, or we can simply accept the word of God and acknowledge that Christ gave direct authority to the twelve whom he chose and ordained here in the Americas, and that those twelve and their successors in no way operated under the direction of anyone but the Lord himself. Not Peter. Not Paul.

The LDS doctrine of "keys" is mostly hogwash and speculation.

I agree with you.

No, the disciples in Bountiful didn't operate under the Jerusalem Apostles.

The discipline were followers of the Lord taught to teach more followers. The only difference is that the Apostles were with Christ from his baptism to ressurrection.

I don't believe in the LDS version because Jesus gave us the signs that follow believers which includes miracles the current LDS church says are only available with their version of priesthood keys. The Book of Mormon shares the same lists though, so it is the modern church that is wrongs not the Book of Mormon or Bible.

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:59 pm

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:44 pm

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:55 am

Is there any scriptural evidence that the Nephite disciples operated under the direction of the Jerusalem apostles? Did they call in on Zoom meetings for PPI's and quorum meetings? Did Mormon write to the apostles in Jerusalem and seek their counsel as he watched the church in America fall into apostasy around him?

We can play pretty little word games and make lots of assumptions to try and make the LDS version of priesthood keys jive with the scriptural record, or we can simply accept the word of God and acknowledge that Christ gave direct authority to the twelve whom he chose and ordained here in the Americas, and that those twelve and their successors in no way operated under the direction of anyone but the Lord himself. Not Peter. Not Paul.

The LDS doctrine of "keys" is mostly hogwash and speculation.

I agree with you.

No, the disciples in Bountiful didn't operate under the Jerusalem Apostles.

The discipline were followers of the Lord taught to teach more followers. The only difference is that the Apostles were with Christ from his baptism to ressurrection.

I don't believe in the LDS version because Jesus gave us the signs that follow believers which includes miracles the current LDS church says are only available with their version of priesthood keys. The Book of Mormon shares the same lists though, so it is the modern church that is wrongs not the Book of Mormon or Bible.

The church doesn't teach, at least currently, that you need Priesthood keys to perform miracles.

ransomme wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:55 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:58 am

ransomme wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:35 am

The fact that there is an end to the time of the Gentiles because they reject the Gospel, by definition means that the Church will not survive. It already walks in much apostasy. The blind are leading the blind.

Someone has to bring the gospel to the gentiles. So when did the time end or has it yet?

The Gentiles carried the Gospel from the original apostles. They received a boost with the Book of Mormon, but almost immediately departed from it; (1832 - D&C 84:54-59 (below)). Spoiler alert as a whole and in great numbers they will remain under that condemnation. To this point Nephi prophesied, "They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men." (2 Nephi 28:14)

The Lord further explained to the Nephites, "For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel...Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent...For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel...But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem." (3 Nephi 21:6,14,20,22-23)

The covenant is with the House of Israel and only those few "humble followers of Christ" who are Gentiles will repent and be grafted in and assist the remnant of Jacob to build Zion. This is of course important because this pertains to the covenant of Zion made with Enoch and fulfills prophecies in the Book of Revelation.

Here is a link (to someone else's work) of a harmony comparison of 3 Nephi chapters 16,20-22. The purpose is to harmonize passages from the Lord about the time of Jews and the time of the Gentiles. It's a good place to start.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oCNn-s ... sp=sharing


D&C 84
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

ransomme wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 3:04 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:59 pm

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:44 pm

I agree with you.

No, the disciples in Bountiful didn't operate under the Jerusalem Apostles.

The discipline were followers of the Lord taught to teach more followers. The only difference is that the Apostles were with Christ from his baptism to ressurrection.

I don't believe in the LDS version because Jesus gave us the signs that follow believers which includes miracles the current LDS church says are only available with their version of priesthood keys. The Book of Mormon shares the same lists though, so it is the modern church that is wrongs not the Book of Mormon or Bible.

The church doesn't teach, at least currently, that you need Priesthood keys to perform miracles.

IMO the doctrines have been muddied. I think the understanding of priesthood and keys has been taught incorrectly. For instance, at some point, the gifts of the Spirit have morphed into or conflated with the powers of the Priesthood. The scriptures say otherwise clearly, consistently, and often.

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:25 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 12:04 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:42 am

What do you think the Lord meant when he gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom?

Are you talking about the New Testament? The part where Jesus is like "WHo do you say I am" And then Peter receives revelation that Jesus is the Christ and Jesus makes a pun and says that as a little rock (the masculine version), he has that revelation, but the revelation is the Rock (the feminine version of the word) is what Christ will build His church on. And then Jesus says and I"m gonna give you the keys? That part? Meaning Jesus is just telling Peter He is going to give Him the same authority that He has the power on earth as in heaven the same authority He tells the other apostles He is giving them, the same authority he later tells them to teach and give to all who believe. That same authority and power he gives to ALL of them 2 chapters later? That same authority and Power He tells them to teach all. Go and make disciples.( people just like me, Jesus). I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but have you ever wondered why we "bear" the name of Christ? Or at least we are supposed to?

Here put another way. Jesus for 3.5 years tells His Apostles and 70 to declare teh Kingdom of God is at hand, the Kingdom of God is within you. He saying "Hey I"m giving you authority to teach the kingdom of God" so that the Kingdom of Heaven is established through all of you first through Peter, you ahve to be converted and realize that You are the Kingdom, where you go you can increase the Kingdom of Heaven i.e. establish Zion - just as I have shown you I am one with the Father, so are you, be the Kingdom as I am the Kingdom. I represent the Father, You as a Son that doesn't see it yet, also represent the Father.

I find it interesting that we as a religion have taken one word, and established an entire religion around it, without looking at the rest of the context. That is scriptural railroading. Jesus "Hey from one Son, many Sons... except you guys can't really be Sons or have the authority of a Son (Jesus didn't really say that, He said the opposite). All authority I give to you... now go and teach others EVERYTHING I have taught you. What we struggle with most is unbelief.

But according to LDS tradition Maybe He has given His power unto man? It's just laying on of hands. Yeah, let's preach that God has done His work He established his "order"? So God can't do anything except through us.

2 nephi 28: 5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men; 6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

Jesus all the time is like "I have power over death and hades" calls it keys in Rev. Yep, He has power over death and hell. We as His Sons do too because we bear His name. Us though are like "ummm keys" Yeah, I HAVE THE ONLY SET OF KEYS, you MUST listen to me or you can't be saved/ receive exaltation or whatever. Oh... I guess Jesus doesn't have the power... unless maybe he means He is giving us the authority and power the same way He has.. which is forgive as I have forgiven, love as I have loved and you have the power to set people free and teach them who I am so they might be set free - here are keys to teach them who I am because you bear my name - What you bind on earth is bound in heaven.. what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven... Wait, you mean if I don't forgive then I can actually bind someone on earth... yeah... possibly, thankfully those that do Father's will are more powerful than those who don't, so don't forgive, lose whatever authority you ahve because you aren't actually bearing His name. Or bear His name and loose the chains that bind people, set them free from earth so they can be free in heaven and live in the righteousness of God.

9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 12:04 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:42 am

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:38 am

I have studied. The word Keys makes an appearance ONLY in this dispensation and it isn't even used consistently within the same context through out this "dispensation". Words mean things. So why use "fullness of priesthood keys" There MUST be a less than fullness of preisthood keys if that is the case. Otherwise they just are, or aren't. Anytime I speak with God and receive revelation, I am receiving a "Gospel dispensation" Why? because God is good. Gospel = good news. I have received a dispensing of good news. Words matter, we just made them mean something they aren't because we accepted what someone else told us without looking at things in context or actually studied it out with the intent to know the heart of God.

What do you think the Lord meant when he gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom?

Are you talking about the New Testament? The part where Jesus is like "WHo do you say I am" And then Peter receives revelation that Jesus is the Christ and Jesus makes a pun and says that as a little rock (the masculine version), he has that revelation, but the revelation is the Rock (the feminine version of the word) is what Christ will build His church on. And then Jesus says and I"m gonna give you the keys? That part? Meaning Jesus is just telling Peter He is going to give Him the same authority that He has the power on earth as in heaven the same authority He tells the other apostles He is giving them, the same authority he later tells them to teach and give to all who believe. That same authority and power he gives to ALL of them 2 chapters later? That same authority and Power He tells them to teach all. Go and make disciples.( people just like me, Jesus). I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but have you ever wondered why we "bear" the name of Christ? Or at least we are supposed to?

Here put another way. Jesus for 3.5 years tells His Apostles and 70 to declare teh Kingdom of God is at hand, the Kingdom of God is within you. He saying "Hey I"m giving you authority to teach the kingdom of God" so that the Kingdom of Heaven is established through all of you first through Peter, you ahve to be converted and realize that You are the Kingdom, where you go you can increase the Kingdom of Heaven i.e. establish Zion - just as I have shown you I am one with the Father, so are you, be the Kingdom as I am the Kingdom. I represent the Father, You as a Son that doesn't see it yet, also represent the Father.

I find it interesting that we as a religion have taken one word, and established an entire religion around it, without looking at the rest of the context. That is scriptural railroading. Jesus "Hey from one Son, many Sons... except you guys can't really be Sons or have the authority of a Son (Jesus didn't really say that, He said the opposite). All authority I give to you... now go and teach others EVERYTHING I have taught you. What we struggle with most is unbelief.

But according to LDS tradition Maybe He has given His power unto man? It's just laying on of hands. Yeah, let's preach that God has done His work He established his "order"? So God can't do anything except through us.

2 nephi 28: 5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men; 6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

Jesus all the time is like "I have power over death and hades" calls it keys in Rev. Yep, He has power over death and hell. We as His Sons do too because we bear His name. Us though are like "ummm keys" Yeah, I HAVE THE ONLY SET OF KEYS, you MUST listen to me or you can't be saved/ receive exaltation or whatever. Oh... I guess Jesus doesn't have the power... unless maybe he means He is giving us the authority and power the same way He has.. which is forgive as I have forgiven, love as I have loved and you have the power to set people free and teach them who I am so they might be set free - here are keys to teach them who I am because you bear my name - What you bind on earth is bound in heaven.. what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven... Wait, you mean if I don't forgive then I can actually bind someone on earth... yeah... possibly, thankfully those that do Father's will are more powerful than those who don't, so don't forgive, lose whatever authority you ahve because you aren't actually bearing His name. Or bear His name and loose the chains that bind people, set them free from earth so they can be free in heaven and live in the righteousness of God.

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 3:07 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:25 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 12:04 pm

Are you talking about the New Testament? The part where Jesus is like "WHo do you say I am" And then Peter receives revelation that Jesus is the Christ and Jesus makes a pun and says that as a little rock (the masculine version), he has that revelation, but the revelation is the Rock (the feminine version of the word) is what Christ will build His church on. And then Jesus says and I"m gonna give you the keys? That part? Meaning Jesus is just telling Peter He is going to give Him the same authority that He has the power on earth as in heaven the same authority He tells the other apostles He is giving them, the same authority he later tells them to teach and give to all who believe. That same authority and power he gives to ALL of them 2 chapters later? That same authority and Power He tells them to teach all. Go and make disciples.( people just like me, Jesus). I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but have you ever wondered why we "bear" the name of Christ? Or at least we are supposed to?

Here put another way. Jesus for 3.5 years tells His Apostles and 70 to declare teh Kingdom of God is at hand, the Kingdom of God is within you. He saying "Hey I"m giving you authority to teach the kingdom of God" so that the Kingdom of Heaven is established through all of you first through Peter, you ahve to be converted and realize that You are the Kingdom, where you go you can increase the Kingdom of Heaven i.e. establish Zion - just as I have shown you I am one with the Father, so are you, be the Kingdom as I am the Kingdom. I represent the Father, You as a Son that doesn't see it yet, also represent the Father.

I find it interesting that we as a religion have taken one word, and established an entire religion around it, without looking at the rest of the context. That is scriptural railroading. Jesus "Hey from one Son, many Sons... except you guys can't really be Sons or have the authority of a Son (Jesus didn't really say that, He said the opposite). All authority I give to you... now go and teach others EVERYTHING I have taught you. What we struggle with most is unbelief.

But according to LDS tradition Maybe He has given His power unto man? It's just laying on of hands. Yeah, let's preach that God has done His work He established his "order"? So God can't do anything except through us.

2 nephi 28: 5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men; 6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

Jesus all the time is like "I have power over death and hades" calls it keys in Rev. Yep, He has power over death and hell. We as His Sons do too because we bear His name. Us though are like "ummm keys" Yeah, I HAVE THE ONLY SET OF KEYS, you MUST listen to me or you can't be saved/ receive exaltation or whatever. Oh... I guess Jesus doesn't have the power... unless maybe he means He is giving us the authority and power the same way He has.. which is forgive as I have forgiven, love as I have loved and you have the power to set people free and teach them who I am so they might be set free - here are keys to teach them who I am because you bear my name - What you bind on earth is bound in heaven.. what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven... Wait, you mean if I don't forgive then I can actually bind someone on earth... yeah... possibly, thankfully those that do Father's will are more powerful than those who don't, so don't forgive, lose whatever authority you ahve because you aren't actually bearing His name. Or bear His name and loose the chains that bind people, set them free from earth so they can be free in heaven and live in the righteousness of God.

9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

What does that have to do with anything? Sometimes the Holy Spirit was given by laying on of hands, sometimes it wasn't... What is your point? That the wizard's heart wasn't right before the Lord, so he wouldn't receive the power (which he grossly misinterpreted as power) unless or until he repented?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 5:24 am

Aussie wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 10:41 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:50 pm

Interesting how “my take” is nearly the opposite, after studying the scriptures, specifically the teachings of Christ.

JST Mark 9 would suggest that he won’t “replace” a leader, he invited us to trust in the Lord alone.

The righteous will remain on the Earth. In fact, the Lord specifically prophesied that he’d remove his gospel from wicked and apostate religions.

The Lord can and will raise up any number of prophets from various segment of society and cultures. The Lord and nearly all ancient prophets prophesied about the derelict nature of modern religious leaders. The LDS org is the epitome of apostasy and dereliction.

Yes that is right! Most of those leaders are the real apostates and have been since Brigham. He brought in the 'Satanic Adam God Theory' and it was taught for twenty five years! That's not just off track that's of the planet! The leaders and most of the members have apostatized and that's why the Davidic leaders coming and his name is David! He will complete the restoration and take all the scriptures and records from the gentiles and give them to the Jews. This is the fulfilling of the gentiles coming very soon!

I have a slightly different take on who the Lord will take the “fullness of the gospel”, I believe the “House of Israel” is anyone who has a broken heart and contrite spirit and receive a personal commission from the Lord. If you think about it, how much blood from Jerusalem is here in America already? How much native american blood is mixed with Gentile blood? And how many are simply adopted into the House of Israel by their humility and willingness to follow the Lord?

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 3:06 pm

ransomme wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:55 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 10:58 am

Someone has to bring the gospel to the gentiles. So when did the time end or has it yet?

The Gentiles carried the Gospel from the original apostles. They received a boost with the Book of Mormon, but almost immediately departed from it; (1832 - D&C 84:54-59 (below)). Spoiler alert as a whole and in great numbers they will remain under that condemnation. To this point Nephi prophesied, "They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men." (2 Nephi 28:14)

The Lord further explained to the Nephites, "For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel...Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent...For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel...But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem." (3 Nephi 21:6,14,20,22-23)

The covenant is with the House of Israel and only those few "humble followers of Christ" who are Gentiles will repent and be grafted in and assist the remnant of Jacob to build Zion. This is of course important because this pertains to the covenant of Zion made with Enoch and fulfills prophecies in the Book of Revelation.

Here is a link (to someone else's work) of a harmony comparison of 3 Nephi chapters 16,20-22. The purpose is to harmonize passages from the Lord about the time of Jews and the time of the Gentiles. It's a good place to start.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oCNn-s ... sp=sharing


D&C 84
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

The church was put under condemnation, but he still calls them the children of Zion and children of the Kingdom. And in the verse quoted, the gospel must come from the gentiles, and they must offer baptism and true points of doctrine. The church is the only people that fit that description, all while they are under condemnation for not remembering the Book of Mormon covenant.

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 3:36 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 3:07 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:25 pm

9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

What does that have to do with anything? Sometimes the Holy Spirit was given by laying on of hands, sometimes it wasn't... What is your point? That the wizard's heart wasn't right before the Lord, so he wouldn't receive the power (which he grossly misinterpreted as power) unless or until he repented?

The point is that the Holy Ghost was received by the laying on of hands of the apostles, and in that instance, wasn't received beforehand by believers. Just one point of evidence that authority was needed to lay hands on people to give them the ordinance of receiving the Holy Ghost, and Priesthood authority is the same way. Just like marriage, you need the true loving relationship, and you also need the covenant and ordinance to make the relationship legal and binding in heaven.

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 2:25 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 12:04 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:42 am

What do you think the Lord meant when he gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom?

Are you talking about the New Testament? The part where Jesus is like "WHo do you say I am" And then Peter receives revelation that Jesus is the Christ and Jesus makes a pun and says that as a little rock (the masculine version), he has that revelation, but the revelation is the Rock (the feminine version of the word) is what Christ will build His church on. And then Jesus says and I"m gonna give you the keys? That part? Meaning Jesus is just telling Peter He is going to give Him the same authority that He has the power on earth as in heaven the same authority He tells the other apostles He is giving them, the same authority he later tells them to teach and give to all who believe. That same authority and power he gives to ALL of them 2 chapters later? That same authority and Power He tells them to teach all. Go and make disciples.( people just like me, Jesus). I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but have you ever wondered why we "bear" the name of Christ? Or at least we are supposed to?

Here put another way. Jesus for 3.5 years tells His Apostles and 70 to declare teh Kingdom of God is at hand, the Kingdom of God is within you. He saying "Hey I"m giving you authority to teach the kingdom of God" so that the Kingdom of Heaven is established through all of you first through Peter, you ahve to be converted and realize that You are the Kingdom, where you go you can increase the Kingdom of Heaven i.e. establish Zion - just as I have shown you I am one with the Father, so are you, be the Kingdom as I am the Kingdom. I represent the Father, You as a Son that doesn't see it yet, also represent the Father.

I find it interesting that we as a religion have taken one word, and established an entire religion around it, without looking at the rest of the context. That is scriptural railroading. Jesus "Hey from one Son, many Sons... except you guys can't really be Sons or have the authority of a Son (Jesus didn't really say that, He said the opposite). All authority I give to you... now go and teach others EVERYTHING I have taught you. What we struggle with most is unbelief.

But according to LDS tradition Maybe He has given His power unto man? It's just laying on of hands. Yeah, let's preach that God has done His work He established his "order"? So God can't do anything except through us.

2 nephi 28: 5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men; 6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

Jesus all the time is like "I have power over death and hades" calls it keys in Rev. Yep, He has power over death and hell. We as His Sons do too because we bear His name. Us though are like "ummm keys" Yeah, I HAVE THE ONLY SET OF KEYS, you MUST listen to me or you can't be saved/ receive exaltation or whatever. Oh... I guess Jesus doesn't have the power... unless maybe he means He is giving us the authority and power the same way He has.. which is forgive as I have forgiven, love as I have loved and you have the power to set people free and teach them who I am so they might be set free - here are keys to teach them who I am because you bear my name - What you bind on earth is bound in heaven.. what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven... Wait, you mean if I don't forgive then I can actually bind someone on earth... yeah... possibly, thankfully those that do Father's will are more powerful than those who don't, so don't forgive, lose whatever authority you ahve because you aren't actually bearing His name. Or bear His name and loose the chains that bind people, set them free from earth so they can be free in heaven and live in the righteousness of God.

9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 4:21 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 3:36 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 3:07 pm

What does that have to do with anything? Sometimes the Holy Spirit was given by laying on of hands, sometimes it wasn't... What is your point? That the wizard's heart wasn't right before the Lord, so he wouldn't receive the power (which he grossly misinterpreted as power) unless or until he repented?

The point is that the Holy Ghost was received by the laying on of hands of the apostles, and in that instance, wasn't received beforehand by believers. Just one point of evidence that authority was needed to lay hands on people to give them the ordinance of receiving the Holy Ghost, and Priesthood authority is the same way. Just like marriage, you need the true loving relationship, and you also need the covenant and ordinance to make the relationship legal and binding in heaven.

Totally fine, in one instance it wasn't and in others it was. Cornelius and the Laminites are two points of evidence authority wasn't needed by someone else. If you notice the language actualy kind of demonstrates a sort of surprise that it hadn't fallen upon them yet. So the people likely lacked a bit of belief. They needed the laying on of hands to help them believe they could receive. IMagine hundreds of years of oppression being told you can't be like the jews and you are separate. It is a tough thing, so the jews come and say, yeah we are all equal now, beleive and lay hands on them.

I'm glad you brought up marriage, because we are teh bride of Christ- Does the groom not want to do anything for the bride? Or does the groom say "you can't speak to me?" The Spirit coming down is the confirmation- it doesn't make a relationship legal. A relationship is a relationship - As you grow in relationship and seek the Lord out it only grows in your knowledge of Him. Its why Jesus said "This is eternal life that they might KNOW thee, the eternal God and your Son whom you have sent." If you are relying on a piece of paper or hands laid on your head for relationship you are living far below your privilege.

I'm not against laying on of hands. Never have been, but I am against someone saying "you can't receive because no one laid their hands on your head." That is placing someone before my God and what He can and has done for me. I had hands laid upon my head and I can tell you I did not receive anything from those hands laid upon my head. It was me a few years later seeking out God in the secret place and I received from Him. So you can try and tell me God does something different, but I have literally experienced something else. So it is you talking from inexperience rather than from knowledge- you are repeating traditions you have been taught- but the reality there are many who are blessed from God and receive without any hands laid upon their head - so we should not "forbid" them from being baptized. It's ok that you ahve a wrong view we all have had one, but don't be so sure about yourself that you become like the apostles who "forbid another man from casting out in Jesus' name because he didn't follow them." Jesus responded "Forbid him not, for he who is not against me is with me and no one can do a miracle in my name and turn around and speak evil of me." If you want proof right there that hands aren't needed. That is your perfect proof. The dude wasn't even ordained and was doing the same as the Apostles. Preisthood is this : The power and authority to act in God's name. You ask God and get permission, you ahve His authority and power. Don't make it more complicated. It was the entire purpose for which Christ came- it was to restore us into relationship with the Father. Don't let your blind traditions prevent you from actually having relationship and more importantly don't you dare let it cause you to cause others to stumble into thinking they can't have a relationship with God because you "forbid" them.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 9:34 am

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 9:24 am If he did have authority given to him to perform ordinances, then those ordinances would still be valid. If a Bishop is committing adultery, any ordinances he approves or performs would still be valid. It just means we as members don't have to partake of the same sin. What is important too though is who on earth holds all the Priesthood Keys. Noah may not have had authority to call other Priests, but it sounds like Alma was ordained in the time of Zeniff, Noah's father, and who was a righteous man.

I disagree. The Lord alone commissions and authorizes his servants. Priesthood and authority (keys) do not transfer through hands on heads. Alma received a personal commission from the Lord. The BoM does not expressly state that, but the Nemenhah Records does.

Personally, I believe the ordinances themselves have become corrupt, so to me that invalidates the Lord's blessings regardless of any supposed keys and authority.

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 6:33 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 9:34 am

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 9:24 am If he did have authority given to him to perform ordinances, then those ordinances would still be valid. If a Bishop is committing adultery, any ordinances he approves or performs would still be valid. It just means we as members don't have to partake of the same sin. What is important too though is who on earth holds all the Priesthood Keys. Noah may not have had authority to call other Priests, but it sounds like Alma was ordained in the time of Zeniff, Noah's father, and who was a righteous man.

I disagree. The Lord alone commissions and authorizes his servants. Priesthood and authority (keys) do not transfer through hands on heads. Alma received a personal commission from the Lord. The BoM does not expressly state that, but the Nemenhah Records does.

Personally, I believe the ordinances themselves have become corrupt, so to me that invalidates the Lord's blessings regardless of any supposed keys and authority.

Neither on this mountain (ordinances) or at Jerusalem. Worship god I spirit and truth.
The days of ordinances is past

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 4:21 pm

Sarah wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 3:36 pm

John Tavner wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 3:07 pm

What does that have to do with anything? Sometimes the Holy Spirit was given by laying on of hands, sometimes it wasn't... What is your point? That the wizard's heart wasn't right before the Lord, so he wouldn't receive the power (which he grossly misinterpreted as power) unless or until he repented?

The point is that the Holy Ghost was received by the laying on of hands of the apostles, and in that instance, wasn't received beforehand by believers. Just one point of evidence that authority was needed to lay hands on people to give them the ordinance of receiving the Holy Ghost, and Priesthood authority is the same way. Just like marriage, you need the true loving relationship, and you also need the covenant and ordinance to make the relationship legal and binding in heaven.

Totally fine, in one instance it wasn't and in others it was. Cornelius and the Laminites are two points of evidence authority wasn't needed by someone else. If you notice the language actualy kind of demonstrates a sort of surprise that it hadn't fallen upon them yet. So the people likely lacked a bit of belief. They needed the laying on of hands to help them believe they could receive. IMagine hundreds of years of oppression being told you can't be like the jews and you are separate. It is a tough thing, so the jews come and say, yeah we are all equal now, beleive and lay hands on them.

I'm glad you brought up marriage, because we are teh bride of Christ- Does the groom not want to do anything for the bride? Or does the groom say "you can't speak to me?" The Spirit coming down is the confirmation- it doesn't make a relationship legal. A relationship is a relationship - As you grow in relationship and seek the Lord out it only grows in your knowledge of Him. Its why Jesus said "This is eternal life that they might KNOW thee, the eternal God and your Son whom you have sent." If you are relying on a piece of paper or hands laid on your head for relationship you are living far below your privilege.

I'm not against laying on of hands. Never have been, but I am against someone saying "you can't receive because no one laid their hands on your head." That is placing someone before my God and what He can and has done for me. I had hands laid upon my head and I can tell you I did not receive anything from those hands laid upon my head. It was me a few years later seeking out God in the secret place and I received from Him. So you can try and tell me God does something different, but I have literally experienced something else. So it is you talking from inexperience rather than from knowledge- you are repeating traditions you have been taught- but the reality there are many who are blessed from God and receive without any hands laid upon their head - so we should not "forbid" them from being baptized. It's ok that you ahve a wrong view we all have had one, but don't be so sure about yourself that you become like the apostles who "forbid another man from casting out in Jesus' name because he didn't follow them." Jesus responded "Forbid him not, for he who is not against me is with me and no one can do a miracle in my name and turn around and speak evil of me." If you want proof right there that hands aren't needed. That is your perfect proof. The dude wasn't even ordained and was doing the same as the Apostles. Preisthood is this : The power and authority to act in God's name. You ask God and get permission, you ahve His authority and power. Don't make it more complicated. It was the entire purpose for which Christ came- it was to restore us into relationship with the Father. Don't let your blind traditions prevent you from actually having relationship and more importantly don't you dare let it cause you to cause others to stumble into thinking they can't have a relationship with God because you "forbid" them.

AgeOfAquarius wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 9:50 pm Thank you for sharing that with us! I also have a Testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, The Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and the Restoration- ❤