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If it’s only for as long as time exists then this would not generally be understood to be eternal? And would therefore be a marriage for this life only? Am I understanding your point correctly?
My definition for "eternal" means "keeps turning". As long as time keeps turning.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:16 amIf it’s only for as long as time exists then this would not generally be understood to be eternal? And would therefore be a marriage for this life only? Am I understanding your point correctly?
Eternal, in my opinion, would be understood to mean how God lives, whether inside or outside of time.FrankOne wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:31 amMy definition for "eternal" means "keeps turning". As long as time keeps turning.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:16 amIf it’s only for as long as time exists then this would not generally be understood to be eternal? And would therefore be a marriage for this life only? Am I understanding your point correctly?
Time has existed for billions of years and will likely go billions more. Plenty of time to do whatever one wishes until one desires to go home which is not limited by time. The scriptures talk of the heavens rolling up into a giant scroll. Perhaps that depicts the closing of the book of time/space/matter. Hence the idea of the Big bang (expansion) to big collapse. Like a giant breath in and out.
Time is an easily proven constant in relativity to space and matter. If the heavens roll up, time goes with it.
God is incomprehensible.
There was a battle in the church as to who had more authority. The 12 also didn't like the office and greatly diminished the authority of it.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:15 am Interesting. So do we know what the justification was for eliminating this office? The first I heard of this was from a Denver Snuffer proponent but I never bothered to confirm it.
Interesting. I wasn’t fully aware of the details of all this. Somewhat fascinating.Telavian wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:53 amThere was a battle in the church as to who had more authority. The 12 also didn't like the office and greatly diminished the authority of it.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:15 am Interesting. So do we know what the justification was for eliminating this office? The first I heard of this was from a Denver Snuffer proponent but I never bothered to confirm it.
There was also supposedly a scandal where one of the patriarchs may have been gay.
Ultimately I think the office was just seen as unnecessary since the apostles (12 and 1st Presidency) want all authority and control.
https://www.exmormon.org/Why-Was-Office ... inated.pdf
So when time gets rolled up for this world you believe it will be rolled out again for another, so it’s accurate to you to say the sealing power binds for as long as time exists since it assumes time will go on existing perpetually? Not trying to be annoying just trying to wrap my head around your point.FrankOne wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:31 amMy definition for "eternal" means "keeps turning". As long as time keeps turning.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:16 amIf it’s only for as long as time exists then this would not generally be understood to be eternal? And would therefore be a marriage for this life only? Am I understanding your point correctly?
Time has existed for billions of years and will likely go billions more. Plenty of time to do whatever one wishes until one desires to go home which is not limited by time. The scriptures talk of the heavens rolling up into a giant scroll. Perhaps that depicts the closing of the book of time/space/matter. Hence the idea of the Big bang (expansion) to big collapse. Like a giant breath in and out.
Time is an easily proven constant in relativity to space and matter. If the heavens roll up, time goes with it.
God is incomprehensible.
Time isn't relative to just one world or just one group of people. The universe is based on time/space/matter/energy.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 12:10 pmSo when time gets rolled up for this world you believe it will be rolled out again for another, so it’s accurate to you to say the sealing power binds for as long as time exists since it assumes time will go on existing perpetually? Not trying to be annoying just trying to wrap my head around your point.FrankOne wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:31 amMy definition for "eternal" means "keeps turning". As long as time keeps turning.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:16 am
If it’s only for as long as time exists then this would not generally be understood to be eternal? And would therefore be a marriage for this life only? Am I understanding your point correctly?
Time has existed for billions of years and will likely go billions more. Plenty of time to do whatever one wishes until one desires to go home which is not limited by time. The scriptures talk of the heavens rolling up into a giant scroll. Perhaps that depicts the closing of the book of time/space/matter. Hence the idea of the Big bang (expansion) to big collapse. Like a giant breath in and out.
Time is an easily proven constant in relativity to space and matter. If the heavens roll up, time goes with it.
God is incomprehensible.
Interesting. So even if a given world ends as long as the universe that world exists in still exists then time still exists. So a sealed couple like that would still be sealed. But once the universe ends that that couple was sealed in, the sealing also ends? Yes?FrankOne wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 12:48 pmTime isn't relative to just one world or just one group of people. The universe is based on time/space/matter/energy.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 12:10 pmSo when time gets rolled up for this world you believe it will be rolled out again for another, so it’s accurate to you to say the sealing power binds for as long as time exists since it assumes time will go on existing perpetually? Not trying to be annoying just trying to wrap my head around your point.FrankOne wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:31 am
My definition for "eternal" means "keeps turning". As long as time keeps turning.
Time has existed for billions of years and will likely go billions more. Plenty of time to do whatever one wishes until one desires to go home which is not limited by time. The scriptures talk of the heavens rolling up into a giant scroll. Perhaps that depicts the closing of the book of time/space/matter. Hence the idea of the Big bang (expansion) to big collapse. Like a giant breath in and out.
Time is an easily proven constant in relativity to space and matter. If the heavens roll up, time goes with it.
God is incomprehensible.
The universe rolls up like a scroll and time ends. The book is closed. All the sealings have served their purpose and come to an end with time.
Time is a construct that serves a purpose and that purpose is salvation . A time of learning and returning. A venue. A stage. A schoolhouse.
When time ends, the school closes and we return home. Home is not relative to time.
As far as the cycle starting again, I have no guesses on that. Maybe. maybe not. I have no idea.
Good question. Everything in the temple is showing what can be if one is connected with heaven. I think it's probably good to have possibilities opened to our minds. At the same time, I believe that a married couple who have never been members of the LDS Church can have a marriage that God and angels will smile on, and if they are reaching for God, God will reach down, and can seal that marriage for all eternity.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 3:14 pm So the question in my mind then is: if people believe this should they go through the temple marriage ceremony or not? Or does it not matter one way or another?
I don't recall ever being taught much more than it is what seals a couple together. It's kind of like holding up a big circle as a carrot, but when people look at the carrot, it holds nothing they can understand because they haven't been taught plainly what it means.JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 6:51 pm Just curious what posters on this thread think the Holy Spirit of Promise is and what being sealed or having your sealing ratified would look like?
It's all well and good to say our marriage sealings are worthless without it but we should at least clarify what that means and why you think the HSP wouldn't honor a priesthood sealing for the faithful.
But BY was a usurper. He changed the doctrine of one wife to many wives, and blamed it on Joseph. Added to the endowment ceremony, "We'll kill those who killed Joseph and Hyrum," (not worded exactly that way, though). He also made up and enforced blood atonement. He did a lot of things to create apostasy. Therefor, any sealing power died with Joseph and Hyrum.JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 7:51 pm Because scripture says so:
I could of course quote D&C 132 but most here reject that scripture.
D&C 20:2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;
3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;
D&C 107:66 Or, in other words, the Presiding High Priest over the High Priesthood of the Church.
67 From the same comes the administering of ordinances and blessings upon the church, by the laying on of the hands.
D&C 27:12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
D&C 124:91...that my servant Hyrum may take the office of Priesthood and Patriarch, which was appointed unto him by his father, by blessing and also by right;
92 That from henceforth he shall hold the keys of the patriarchal blessings upon the heads of all my people,
93 That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
There is no patriarch of the Church. They got rid of that decades ago, and it wasn't too long ago that the patriarch (emeritus) died at something like 101 or 102 years old.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 7:56 pm So am I interpreting those scriptures correctly in that you believe they say that all apostles have the sealing power and also the patriarch of the church?
Nobody?
I'm really sure it was announced in the Deseret News at the time. I don't recall the official reason, but I think the secret reason was to eliminate competition with the President of the Church.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:15 am Interesting. So do we know what the justification was for eliminating this office? The first I heard of this was from a Denver Snuffer proponent but I never bothered to confirm it.
Article dated April 5, 2013Elder Eldred G. Smith, who served as patriarch to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from 1947 to 1979, turned 105 on Monday.
https://www.deseret.com/2012/1/10/20243 ... h-birthday
Elder Eldred Gee Smith, 106, an emeritus general authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since 1979 and the seventh and final of seven patriarchs to the church in general, died Thursday night.
He was the most long-lived general authority in the history of the LDS Church.
https://www.deseret.com/2013/4/5/205175 ... at-age-106
This is pretty fascinating to me. I want to look into this more when I have time. Thank you Silver Pie.Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 2:45 pm Article dated January 10, 2012Article dated April 5, 2013Elder Eldred G. Smith, who served as patriarch to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from 1947 to 1979, turned 105 on Monday.
https://www.deseret.com/2012/1/10/20243 ... h-birthdayElder Eldred Gee Smith, 106, an emeritus general authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints since 1979 and the seventh and final of seven patriarchs to the church in general, died Thursday night.
He was the most long-lived general authority in the history of the LDS Church.
https://www.deseret.com/2013/4/5/205175 ... at-age-106
So, I was off by a few years.
so you're saying the fruits are secret? I mean you take on fruits is personal knowledge, which others CANNOT judge. I claim to have received open visions of several things, you you would say I have no fruit because you don't accept it. I see some truth but ironically your statement means only the beholder can see, taste, observe the fruits............ Seems contradictory to the point of fruits being made, which see to be viewed on FF as external fruits. You cannot know what I have seen, so you cannot judge my fruits (those I eat) unless the spirit allows you to do so.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 7:57 amAs far as the fruits go, the fruits/power of the Melchizedek priesthood are clearly to have open visions of heaven and direct communication/communion with Jesus and God in their presence, and to be part of the church of the Firstborn according to the section JHLPROF cited.tmac wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 6:35 amIn my view, that goes without saying.
“37 That [the rights of the priesthood] may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.”
So, besides actual fruits, how would we know who actually still has God’s actual power and authority and who has lost it?
The way Nephi III was able to bind God, and the reason God told him that He would grant (and seal) anything that Nephi asked for, is because God also observed that Nephi would never ask for anything that was contrary to the Lord’s will. Doesn’t that make a difference — to have actual power and authority, and to use it to do the Lord’s will?
D&C 107
“The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.”
Yet no one has explained how it’s possible for prior q12 members to have apparently misused or abused their sealing power or why basically no q12 members for a long time have claimed any of the things mentioned in the above scripture let alone talked about them really.
As I have stated above, I disagree that all with PH have sealing power. Maybe I'm miss reading but it seems like you are saying this??? I don't see where Jesus gave sealing power to al 12, in fact, at least until the HG overcame them at pentecost, they seemed to have little power. Maybe I don't know what you are saying, but I feel administrative power can be handed down but true sealing power must come one-on-one from HSoP.JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 8:13 pmIn Matt 18:18 the Lord gave all the twelve authority to seal:fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 7:56 pmSo am I interpreting those scriptures correctly in that you believe they say that all apostles have the sealing power and also the patriarch of the church?JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 7:51 pm
Because scripture says so:
I could of course quote D&C 132 but most here reject that scripture.
D&C 20:2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;
3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;
D&C 107:66 Or, in other words, the Presiding High Priest over the High Priesthood of the Church.
67 From the same comes the administering of ordinances and blessings upon the church, by the laying on of the hands.
D&C 27:12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
D&C 124:91...that my servant Hyrum may take the office of Priesthood and Patriarch, which was appointed unto him by his father, by blessing and also by right;
92 That from henceforth he shall hold the keys of the patriarchal blessings upon the heads of all my people,
93 That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
They later called another Apostle to replace Judas. It was three of them gave the Apostleship to Joseph Smith.
I believe every worthy man correctly ordained by someone already in possession of the sealing authority holds the sealing power.
I happen to believe the accounts of the last charge meeting.
I also take Joseph at his word:
“The spirit, power, and calling of Elijah is, that ye have power to hold the key of the revelation, ordinances, oracles, powers and endowments of the fullness of the Melchizedek Priesthood and of the kingdom of God on the earth; and to receive, obtain, and perform all the ordinances belonging to the kingdom of God, even unto the turning of the hearts of the fathers unto the children, and the hearts of the children unto the fathers, even those who are in heaven” HC 6:251
“This is the spirit of Elijah, that we redeem our dead, and connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven, and seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrection; and here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those who dwell in heaven” HC 6:252
“The doctrine or sealing power of Elijah is as follows:—If you have power to seal on earth and in heaven, then we should be wise. The first thing you do, go and seal on earth your sons and daughters unto yourself, and yourself unto your fathers in eternal glory”. TPJS 340
I don’t feel the need to respond to this personally.TheDuke wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 4:15 pmso you're saying the fruits are secret? I mean you take on fruits is personal knowledge, which others CANNOT judge. I claim to have received open visions of several things, you you would say I have no fruit because you don't accept it. I see some truth but ironically your statement means only the beholder can see, taste, observe the fruits............ Seems contradictory to the point of fruits being made, which see to be viewed on FF as external fruits. You cannot know what I have seen, so you cannot judge my fruits (those I eat) unless the spirit allows you to do so.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 7:57 amAs far as the fruits go, the fruits/power of the Melchizedek priesthood are clearly to have open visions of heaven and direct communication/communion with Jesus and God in their presence, and to be part of the church of the Firstborn according to the section JHLPROF cited.tmac wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 6:35 am
In my view, that goes without saying.
“37 That [the rights of the priesthood] may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.”
So, besides actual fruits, how would we know who actually still has God’s actual power and authority and who has lost it?
The way Nephi III was able to bind God, and the reason God told him that He would grant (and seal) anything that Nephi asked for, is because God also observed that Nephi would never ask for anything that was contrary to the Lord’s will. Doesn’t that make a difference — to have actual power and authority, and to use it to do the Lord’s will?
D&C 107
“The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.”
Yet no one has explained how it’s possible for prior q12 members to have apparently misused or abused their sealing power or why basically no q12 members for a long time have claimed any of the things mentioned in the above scripture let alone talked about them really.
First time I've seen this in response to someone's demand (usually they just keep arguing in circles for pages. Even if they say, "I'm done," they come back and argue). I must say, it's quite refreshing to see this reply.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 4:25 pm I don’t feel the need to respond to this personally.
No justification was given that I am aware of. I guess I could go to a Denver website and research it.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:15 amInteresting. So do we know what the justification was for eliminating this office? The first I heard of this was from a Denver Snuffer proponent but I never bothered to confirm it.HereWeGo wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 10:50 amThe office of Patriarch of the Church was eliminated in 2013 when Hyram's descendant died. Christ set up this office in D&C and said that it was to always be there and be filled by one of Hyram's descendants.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 7:56 pm
So am I interpreting those scriptures correctly in that you believe they say that all apostles have the sealing power and also the patriarch of the church?
That’s strange. I’m pretty sure that priesthood office was appointed in the D&C based off the section JHLPROF cited. Without a vote, I’m not sure the q15 are allowed to remove it like they appear to have done. Seems pretty sketchy imo. I’m not sure these changes are above board frankly speaking.HereWeGo wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 4:44 pmNo justification was given that I am aware of. I guess I could go to a Denver website and research it.fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 11:15 amInteresting. So do we know what the justification was for eliminating this office? The first I heard of this was from a Denver Snuffer proponent but I never bothered to confirm it.
What do you think it means, and what do you think it looks like?JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 6:51 pm Just curious what posters on this thread think the Holy Spirit of Promise is and what being sealed or having your sealing ratified would look like?
It's all well and good to say our marriage sealings are worthless without it but we should at least clarify what that means and why you think the HSP wouldn't honor a priesthood sealing for the faithful.
Ultimately what can it even mean if Satan fell from his position? If Satan supposedly had no body then how could he have his agency? If no agency then how could he be punished? If he had agency and went against God then his "sealing" obviously was conditional in nature. If he wasn't "sealed" then what was he?tmac wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 5:54 pm What do you think it means, and what do you think it looks like?
It's part of the meat of gospel that is never mentioned or discussed anymore. I have my own views of what it means, but I'd prefer to hear yours first, to assess whether there is even any point of getting into it.