LDS Freedom Forum

Lizzy60 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2023, 3:05 pm Would someone go and listen carefully/memorize the current iteration of the marriage ceremony performed in the temple?

The last time I went, the ceremony pronounced the man and woman husband and wife.....and then SEALED upon them blessings, namely the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Nowhere did it say they were SEALED to each other. This was in contrast to the child-parent sealing which specifies stated that the child was sealed to the parents as though they had been born in the covenant.

This is quite true and for a very good reason. I have spent many, many hours reading and rereading my temple covenants. I got pretty confused about them a few years back. You see my partner left overnight from hospital with another man. The Lord told me many years ago I'd be with her again some day, if I continued to live my covenants. then he told me that was conditional, and if she didn't wish to return, he would provide another just like her to fulfill my covenants. I am also recently (Oct 2020) sealed to my current wife as directed by the Lord on August 6, 2020. I now read the covenants differently than before.

A careful reading (pre-1990 version anyway). Seems to have 3 parts. The first part is legal stuff for earthly marriage (taking your partner of you own free will, etc....). The second part is your covenants with the Lord and the blessings of celestial partnership. The third part is the promise. In the promise it says what your reward is. but, it does say it will be with your partner (by name). I'm not sure how it gets interpreted by women, but for men, where woman takes the man's name, I read it differently with what the Lord says. You see I took Ms. Mary Maiden Name of my own free will and lived my covenants with her (even now) so I will be with Mrs. Mary Married Name. Same first name, transitional last name. The Lord said in my case I will have "a Mary" if I live my covenants. It will be the woman I married if she is worthy and desires, and I am worthy and desire. If she doesn't, I will still be rewarded under this covenant. I cannot truly explain how it works. With my current wife she is NOT a Mary, nothing like her, so I needed a new covenant.

Anyway, the point is the covenants truly are three way. The majority between each of us and the Lord, and a third leg between the partners. Any partner can fail, and if you still believe in the other partner are in a promise to obtain them. So, very clever, I never saw how brilliant the Lord's wording was until it came home to roost.

But, I am strange. After all my first wife did to hurt me, I still see her as the epitome of virtue and want to be with her or someone just like her, not just some one else. But, I sure do wish to be with my current wife who is different as well. Gets complicated and has taken over 10,000 hours of prayer an meditation to get even this much understanding.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 4th, 2023, 7:27 pm

Dave62 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2023, 2:54 pm

Original_Intent wrote: ↑December 4th, 2023, 12:59 pm I chose other,

Like all ordinances, the ordinances themselves have no power in and of themselves, even if performed by so-called "proper authority"

Without ratification from heaven, all ordinances are empty and do nothing.
With ratification from heaven, all things are possible.

Also, on a poll a while back you said you would stop soon, you promised.
It is past soon.

I certainly agree with you. Just because we might be married in the temple it means nothing unless we convert that temple marriage into a celestial marriage.

I guess one question I would have based on your response is: is it then necessary to go thru the ordinance itself plus convert that temple marriage into a celestial one? Or is it enough to simply be married civilly and live a celestial type of marriage?

That is a nice sentiment that I encountered almost every day of my mission. Yes, the ordinance is necessary. The Father is quite particular that we approach Him through covenants with His Son. "Is there any other way?" has often been asked with honest sincerity but no, there is no other way.

As far as I understand, all the physical ordinances, including temple marriages and “sealings,” are meaningless and of no effect or eternal consequence whatsoever, unless they are ratified, sanctified and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

What does being sealed to another person and not to God mean? It seems LDS theology is one assumption covering for another assumption, built on an endless expanse of feel good ideas.

Suppose I am sealed to a spouse forever. What if they don't want it to be forever? What if they don't qualify for where I qualify for? What if eternity is more than making babies for other planets? What does marriage mean then?

I understand people want to be with someone they love in the next life. However that doesn't mean we should delude ourselves into thinking a church, that clearly shows they love Satan more than God, has the binding authority to do anything.

Eternal marriage is also frankly strange. The majority of the marriages are made with very little information, based on a healthy amount of lust. We are expected to be with this person *forever* when we realistically dated them for less than 6 months? Am I to believe that the person God wants me to be with *forever* was just by happen stance within my circle of acquaintances during the 6 months I was looking for a spouse and this applies to everyone? What about the people in the past who either had arranged marriages or only 1 or 2 people to choose for a spouse? Are they also supposedly with their spouse forever?

There is also not a single evidence that God is married yet we base our entire theology on the concept. Then we build other theology on that and so on. Eventually we have feel good lessons on "families can be together forever". What does this even mean in a trillion years? My kids grow up and move away and their kids do the same. What does "together" and "forever" even mean? How am I tied to my children in heaven any different than I would be otherwise? The majority of my earthly relationship with my children is an adult to adult relationship. Eternity will make this even worse. There are so many assumptions, and the LDS people just swallow them whole.

I think most of our theology is wrong and based on feel good ideas that just make heaven a better version of earth. I want heaven to be far better than earth in every way.

It’s the Mormon “eternal” mating model — send your kids to college, and let hormones take over from there, and do the rest — and then have the resulting “eternal union” sealed in the temple.

Dave62 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 2:17 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 4th, 2023, 7:27 pm

Dave62 wrote: ↑December 4th, 2023, 2:54 pm

I certainly agree with you. Just because we might be married in the temple it means nothing unless we convert that temple marriage into a celestial marriage.

I guess one question I would have based on your response is: is it then necessary to go thru the ordinance itself plus convert that temple marriage into a celestial one? Or is it enough to simply be married civilly and live a celestial type of marriage?

That is a nice sentiment that I encountered almost every day of my mission. Yes, the ordinance is necessary. The Father is quite particular that we approach Him through covenants with His Son. "Is there any other way?" has often been asked with honest sincerity but no, there is no other way.

I grew up Mormon so I am familiar with this line of reasoning. And it does make some sense to me. I know about the scriptures talking about sealing on earth and heaven, so it makes sense that if something is sealed here by proper authority they will also be sealed in heaven.

But since I would say most people on this forum believe RMN *isn’t* a prophet then it begs the question where is the sealing authority coming from? But I also understand that some believe he has it or that the institution holds it and since he sits at the top of the institution ipso facto, he holds the authority.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:12 am But since I would say most people on this forum believe RMN *isn’t* a prophet then it begs the question where is the sealing authority coming from? But I also understand that some believe he has it or that the institution holds it and since he sits at the top of the institution ipso facto, he holds the authority.

By this logic, then if President Oaks violently murdered President Nelson he would become the next President/Prophet and have the sealing authority to bind God since he would be the leader of the church?

Telavian wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:34 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:12 am But since I would say most people on this forum believe RMN *isn’t* a prophet then it begs the question where is the sealing authority coming from? But I also understand that some believe he has it or that the institution holds it and since he sits at the top of the institution ipso facto, he holds the authority.

By this logic, then if President Oaks violently murdered President Nelson he would become the next President/Prophet and have the sealing authority to bind God since he would be the leader of the church?

Yes exactly. Hence the rub. Where does the authority come from? Is it Melchizedek in nature? Patriarchal? Can one man pass this authority onto another?

Telavian wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 7:29 am What does being sealed to another person and not to God mean? It seems LDS theology is one assumption covering for another assumption, built on an endless expanse of feel good ideas.

Suppose I am sealed to a spouse forever. What if they don't want it to be forever? What if they don't qualify for where I qualify for? What if eternity is more than making babies for other planets? What does marriage mean then?

I understand people want to be with someone they love in the next life. However that doesn't mean we should delude ourselves into thinking a church, that clearly shows they love Satan more than God, has the binding authority to do anything.

Eternal marriage is also frankly strange. The majority of the marriages are made with very little information, based on a healthy amount of lust. We are expected to be with this person *forever* when we realistically dated them for less than 6 months? Am I to believe that the person God wants me to be with *forever* was just by happen stance within my circle of acquaintances during the 6 months I was looking for a spouse and this applies to everyone? What about the people in the past who either had arranged marriages or only 1 or 2 people to choose for a spouse? Are they also supposedly with their spouse forever?

There is also not a single evidence that God is married yet we base our entire theology on the concept. Then we build other theology on that and so on. Eventually we have feel good lessons on "families can be together forever". What does this even mean in a trillion years? My kids grow up and move away and their kids do the same. What does "together" and "forever" even mean? How am I tied to my children in heaven any different than I would be otherwise? The majority of my earthly relationship with my children is an adult to adult relationship. Eternity will make this even worse. There are so many assumptions, and the LDS people just swallow them whole.

I think most of our theology is wrong and based on feel good ideas that just make heaven a better version of earth. I want heaven to be far better than earth in every way.

read my post above, I discussed the issues of being sealed to someone by the HSoP that doesn't necessarily want the same thing.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:12 am

Dave62 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 2:17 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 4th, 2023, 7:27 pm

I guess one question I would have based on your response is: is it then necessary to go thru the ordinance itself plus convert that temple marriage into a celestial one? Or is it enough to simply be married civilly and live a celestial type of marriage?

That is a nice sentiment that I encountered almost every day of my mission. Yes, the ordinance is necessary. The Father is quite particular that we approach Him through covenants with His Son. "Is there any other way?" has often been asked with honest sincerity but no, there is no other way.

I grew up Mormon so I am familiar with this line of reasoning. And it does make some sense to me. I know about the scriptures talking about sealing on earth and heaven, so it makes sense that if something is sealed here by proper authority they will also be sealed in heaven.

But since I would say most people on this forum believe RMN *isn’t* a prophet then it begs the question where is the sealing authority coming from? But I also understand that some believe he has it or that the institution holds it and since he sits at the top of the institution ipso facto, he holds the authority.

to be clear, being a prophet to most means to prophesy. We mostly seem to agree there has been no or minimal prophesying since Joseph. However, if you mean Prophet, as a moniker for simply being "President" and having administrative sealing authority, then you're likely wrong.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:51 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:12 am

Dave62 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 2:17 am
That is a nice sentiment that I encountered almost every day of my mission. Yes, the ordinance is necessary. The Father is quite particular that we approach Him through covenants with His Son. "Is there any other way?" has often been asked with honest sincerity but no, there is no other way.

I grew up Mormon so I am familiar with this line of reasoning. And it does make some sense to me. I know about the scriptures talking about sealing on earth and heaven, so it makes sense that if something is sealed here by proper authority they will also be sealed in heaven.

But since I would say most people on this forum believe RMN *isn’t* a prophet then it begs the question where is the sealing authority coming from? But I also understand that some believe he has it or that the institution holds it and since he sits at the top of the institution ipso facto, he holds the authority.

to be clear, being a prophet to most means to prophesy. We mostly seem to agree there has been no or minimal prophesying since Joseph. However, if you mean Prophet, as a moniker for simply being "President" and having administrative sealing authority, then you're likely wrong.

I see. So you believe RMN has sealing power and authority from God but just has never prophesied anything? How did he come upon or receive the sealing power to seal marriages?

For a mortal man to have actual “sealing” power, like Nephi III, what he does has to be binding on God.

Just curious who believes that what the current “PSRs” are doing is binding on God, and why?

Is there any evidence that God has actually called them and laid His hands on their heads and ordained them, as is supposed to be the case?

It would remove quite a bit of debate if RMN actually said “God laid His hands on my head.” Then the only debate would be whether or not he was telling the truth. And, any such claims should be corroborated by actual fruits.

As it is, there are neither any such claims, nor corresponding fruits.

The BoM teaches something different about sealings than what the LDS church does.
This is the sealing power, to pronounce what heaven has already been decreed, because those who have the sealing power will do nothing with it except what the Father wants done. We know Nephi “sought [God’s] will and to keep [God’s] commandments” because God attributed this to Nephi in Helaman (LDS 10:4) (RLDS 3:115-116). In the next verse God adds more emphasis to this idea, “for thou [Nephi] shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will” Helaman (LDS 10:5) (RLDS 3:117).
https://seekingyhwh.org/2018/04/30/sealing-power/

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 10:59 am The BoM teaches something different about sealings than what the LDS church does.
This is the sealing power, to pronounce what heaven has already been decreed, because those who have the sealing power will do nothing with it except what the Father wants done. We know Nephi “sought [God’s] will and to keep [God’s] commandments” because God attributed this to Nephi in Helaman (LDS 10:4) (RLDS 3:115-116). In the next verse God adds more emphasis to this idea, “for thou [Nephi] shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will” Helaman (LDS 10:5) (RLDS 3:117).
https://seekingyhwh.org/2018/04/30/sealing-power/

Yes yours and Tmac’s responses and type of views are what started to give me pause *personally* about how the sealing power is viewed among lds. I’m not able personally to reconcile what is taught by the corporate church on the one hand, and what’s taught in the scriptures on the other about this subject. So it remains a rub when you talk about it to various people. That’s part of my interest in the topic and why I think it should be polled personally to see where people are at on it.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 10:59 am The BoM teaches something different about sealings than what the LDS church does.
This is the sealing power, to pronounce what heaven has already been decreed, because those who have the sealing power will do nothing with it except what the Father wants done. We know Nephi “sought [God’s] will and to keep [God’s] commandments” because God attributed this to Nephi in Helaman (LDS 10:4) (RLDS 3:115-116). In the next verse God adds more emphasis to this idea, “for thou [Nephi] shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will” Helaman (LDS 10:5) (RLDS 3:117).
https://seekingyhwh.org/2018/04/30/sealing-power/

This is a good point. In the temple sealing, when does the sealer get that guarantee from heaven that the permanent union is God's will? Or when did the sealer get the assurance from God that he won't ask anything contrary to God's will?

At 70 votes

• 54% believe the lds temple sealings for marriage are not or probably are not valid

• 26% believe they are or probably are

• 20% are undecided or believe ‘other’

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 11:35 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 10:59 am The BoM teaches something different about sealings than what the LDS church does.
This is the sealing power, to pronounce what heaven has already been decreed, because those who have the sealing power will do nothing with it except what the Father wants done. We know Nephi “sought [God’s] will and to keep [God’s] commandments” because God attributed this to Nephi in Helaman (LDS 10:4) (RLDS 3:115-116). In the next verse God adds more emphasis to this idea, “for thou [Nephi] shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will” Helaman (LDS 10:5) (RLDS 3:117).
https://seekingyhwh.org/2018/04/30/sealing-power/

This is a good point. In the temple sealing, when does the sealer get that guarantee from heaven that the permanent union is God's will? Or when did the sealer get the assurance from God that he won't ask anything contrary to God's will?

Personally I do not believe the LDS / Brighamite temple ceremony is from YHWH. It contradicts the scriptures. And many things such as lone and dreary world is not in the scriptures but is in the occult. https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/occult/

Quote:

Yes, yes, I know we can find ceremonies like those in LDS temples being done historically around the world. But that does not mean any of them were from God. Mystery Babylon has spread around the world. The ceremonies being performed in LDS / Brighamite temples are of the occult, which is of Mystery Babylon, and not of God. We can see how the works of darkness spread all over.

Helaman (LDS 6:28) (RLDS 2:154) … And it was that same being who led on the people who came from that tower into this land; who spread the works of darkness and abominations over all the face of the land, until he dragged the people down to an entire destruction, and to an everlasting hell.

If you ask me Joseph Smith was in the process of gathering evidence against Brigham Young to excommunicate him for his sins and crimes, which is why Brigham Young helped plan Joseph Smith’s murder, which is talked about in The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph & Hyrum: Part One along with “The Carthage Conspiracy” and Joseph Smith Was Murdered By Freemasons. (Knowing this I find verse Helaman (LDS 6:19) (RLDS 2:128) very telling, especially considering what is being described before and after it, not to mention Helaman (LDS 6:21) (RLDS 2:145).) When that was rooted out of me many other things started to make sense.

Helaman (LDS 6:19) (RLDS 2:128) And it was they [those with secret signs and words] who did murder the chief judge Cezoram [Joseph and Hyrum Smith], and his son [successor, Samuel Smith], while in the judgment-seat; and behold, they were not found.

If Helaman (LDS 6:22-27) (RLDS 2:146-152) does not sound like what happens in LDS Temples along with what members in politics and the law do to protecting the LDS / Brighamite church, and how and why many courts of love [of power] are conducted I don’t know what does. (see McKenna Denson a force for good for examples and Bishops are JUDGEs of Israel for explanation)

Helaman (LDS 6:22-27) (RLDS 2:146-152)
22 And it came to pass that they did have their SIGNS, yea, their SECRET SIGNS, and their SECRET WORDS; and this that they might DISTINGUISH a brother who had ENTERED into the COVENANT, that whatsoever wickedness his brother should do he SHOULD NOT BE INJURED BY HIS BROTHER [upholding their kingdom], nor by those who did belong to his band, who had taken this COVENANT. 23 And thus they might murder, and plunder, and steal, and commit WHOREDOMS and all manner of wickedness, CONTRARY to the LAWS of their COUNTRY and also the LAWS of their GOD. 24 And whosoever of those who BELONGED to their band should REVEAL unto the WORLD of their WICKEDNESS and their ABOMINATIONS, should be TRIED, not according to the laws of their country, BUT ACCORDING TO THE LAWS OF THEIR WICKEDNESS, which had been given by Gadianton and Kishkumen. 25 Now behold, it is these SECRET OATHS and COVENANTS which Alma commanded his son should not go forth unto the world, lest they should be a means of bringing down the people unto DESTRUCTION. 26 Now behold, those SECRET OATHS and COVENANTS did not come forth unto Gadianton from the records which were delivered unto Helaman; but behold, they were put into the heart of Gadianton by that same being who did entice our first parents to partake of the forbidden fruit— 27 Yea, that same being who did plot with Cain, that if he would murder his brother Abel it should not be known unto the world. And he did plot with Cain and his followers from that time forth.

Not to mention that the temple ceremonies that the sons of Aaron performed in the tabernacle, which later was done in the temple, were sacred but not secret as they written in the first five books of the Bible which are also known as the Torah.

https://seekingyhwh.org/2019/06/09/the- ... -the-same/

One interesting conclusion so far from this poll is that less people believe RMN is a prophet than those who believe he holds sealing authority/power to seal marriages for eternity.

This could be because people still believe that RMN holds some type of sealing authority whether personally or institutionally yet at the same time *don’t* believe he is a prophet (however they define that title). Or that different people primarily voted yes in this poll than those who voted yes in the “RMN is a prophet?” poll. Those would be the two most likely causes for this in my mind.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 9:08 pmBasically, do LDS marriage sealings have the ability to seal a man and woman for time and *all eternity* assuming they are worthy etc.

No. In fact, the LDS Church used to teach that. They pointed out that the actual sealing (by the Spirit of Promise) was done by heaven, not by any man. It depended on the couple and their righteousness, etc.

I honestly believe that for a man to have the power to seal anything or anyone, they need to get that power straight from God, not from a hierarchy, not from a position in an institution/religion, and I seriously doubt there is one man on earth with that power, with the exception of John, who was translated (not sure about other translated beings).

Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 2:55 pm I honestly believe that for a man to have the power to seal anything or anyone, they need to get that power straight from God, not from a hierarchy, not from a position in an institution/religion, and I seriously doubt there is one man on earth with that power, with the exception of John, who was translated (not sure about other translated beings).

So the question in my mind then is: if people believe this should they go through the temple marriage ceremony or not? Or does it not matter one way or another?

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:53 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:51 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:12 am

I grew up Mormon so I am familiar with this line of reasoning. And it does make some sense to me. I know about the scriptures talking about sealing on earth and heaven, so it makes sense that if something is sealed here by proper authority they will also be sealed in heaven.

But since I would say most people on this forum believe RMN *isn’t* a prophet then it begs the question where is the sealing authority coming from? But I also understand that some believe he has it or that the institution holds it and since he sits at the top of the institution ipso facto, he holds the authority.

to be clear, being a prophet to most means to prophesy. We mostly seem to agree there has been no or minimal prophesying since Joseph. However, if you mean Prophet, as a moniker for simply being "President" and having administrative sealing authority, then you're likely wrong.

I see. So you believe RMN has sealing power and authority from God but just has never prophesied anything? How did he come upon or receive the sealing power to seal marriages?

Actually I feel he has administrative power for sealing ordinances. I didn’t say “sealing power “

As far as prophecy, not what administration would mean

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 4:57 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:53 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 9:51 am

to be clear, being a prophet to most means to prophesy. We mostly seem to agree there has been no or minimal prophesying since Joseph. However, if you mean Prophet, as a moniker for simply being "President" and having administrative sealing authority, then you're likely wrong.

I see. So you believe RMN has sealing power and authority from God but just has never prophesied anything? How did he come upon or receive the sealing power to seal marriages?

Actually I feel he has administrative power for sealing ordinances. I didn’t say “sealing power “

As far as prophecy, not what administration would mean

I see. So, if I may ask, where does the sealing power to perform this ordinance come from then in your mind the Duke?

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 4:57 pm Actually I feel he has administrative power for sealing ordinances. I didn’t say “sealing power “

That sounds meaningless. "Administrative power" for ordinances. Of course he does. He is the leader of an organization that defines ordinances a certain way.
He can make up whatever ordinances he wants and then claim "administrative power" over them.

However, if the ordinance means nothing and has no eternal power then isn't he a major liar to claim anything else?

Just curious what posters on this thread think the Holy Spirit of Promise is and what being sealed or having your sealing ratified would look like?

It's all well and good to say our marriage sealings are worthless without it but we should at least clarify what that means and why you think the HSP wouldn't honor a priesthood sealing for the faithful.