LDS Freedom Forum

In light of your views about the HSoP, what is your view of Charity, and the Pure Love of Christ?

Telavian wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 6:02 pm

tmac wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 5:54 pm What do you think it means, and what do you think it looks like?

It's part of the meat of gospel that is never mentioned or discussed anymore. I have my own views of what it means, but I'd prefer to hear yours first, to assess whether there is even any point of getting into it.

Ultimately what can it even mean if Satan fell from his position? If Satan supposedly had no body then how could he have his agency? If no agency then how could he be punished? If he had agency and went against God then his "sealing" obviously was conditional in nature. If he wasn't "sealed" then what was he?

How could the Holy Spirit of Promise seal something so that it is binding if we commit "any manner of sin", yet not binding if we kill an innocent person?

According to this, the HSOP is the testimony of Jesus. Which I agree with. Ultimately in this life if we trust in God and have true faith in him, which is an action, then I think we are sealed to God and become part of his Kingdom. I don't think we need to be born during a certain period of the earth or be part of the "cool kids club". We need to have faith and believe. The doctrine of Christ is so simple, yet we always want it to be more complicated. There is a reason that God says he will save all the works of his hands. Anyone that wants to be saved will be. It will be a conscious choice to not be saved.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... -burgess/2

ahhh, you have brought forth an "untruth", about Lucifer not having a body and all. Show me that in canon, not J Fielding or Bruce R............... where does that come from? What does it mean for Lucifer to "fall", that is really figurative and refers to Revelations about falling (shooting) stars. What is the truth here? As you say Joseph clearly says you cannot become perdition without a body, neither before or after a life as a spirit. Same for the one third part, they claim are also perdition.

Kind of makes me lol really, God makes a council, has a vote. All that vote against him, using their agency, become perdition and are thrown out. Some Agency! I've written a thread on this topic (2 actually) and posited that Lucifer and not keeping his first estate (which is true) was not due to his vote or claim of leadership, but for other reasons. I feel he fills a needed role, perhaps role play even, after all this world would not be possible without Satan, there would be no good-vs-evil, no balance. It is a story, but it is a parable. Outside of this life (mortal probation, not even a normal mortality) there is no good or evil, there is just different levels of progression and different levels of laws and different rewards and different powers. None are good or bad, all are just different levels of progress. From simple intelligences that barely act for themselves to gods.

BTW in the beginning of the premortal council the first rule was every person has their agency and it cannot be taken, that includes Lucifer!

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 12:55 pm

FrankOne wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 12:48 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 12:10 pm

So when time gets rolled up for this world you believe it will be rolled out again for another, so it’s accurate to you to say the sealing power binds for as long as time exists since it assumes time will go on existing perpetually? Not trying to be annoying just trying to wrap my head around your point.

Time isn't relative to just one world or just one group of people. The universe is based on time/space/matter/energy.

The universe rolls up like a scroll and time ends. The book is closed. All the sealings have served their purpose and come to an end with time.

Time is a construct that serves a purpose and that purpose is salvation . A time of learning and returning. A venue. A stage. A schoolhouse.

When time ends, the school closes and we return home. Home is not relative to time.

As far as the cycle starting again, I have no guesses on that. Maybe. maybe not. I have no idea.

Interesting. So even if a given world ends as long as the universe that world exists in still exists then time still exists. So a sealed couple like that would still be sealed. But once the universe ends that that couple was sealed in, the sealing also ends? Yes?

yah. Our true state is incomprehensible. Time/matter/energy as we know it is just a school of experience. But...here we are and discussing our true nature doesn't do much good for most. We still have to go through this ...as it is.....now.

Planets within time require Lords to manage them , so ...the levels of "progression" are many. Lords are more like school masters. 'Some "Evil" and others "Good". The students under the Lords choose their curriculum. Some schools are very painful and others, blissful. The earth can be both, depending on the individual. Some enjoy this life, others hate it. Some are in abject torment within their minds, and others are peaceful. Heaven and Hell are both here. Some smile in peace while others weep, wail or gnash their teeth.

I don't want to derail this any further, so maybe on another thread , another time.

Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 2:30 pm

JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 7:51 pm Because scripture says so:

I could of course quote D&C 132 but most here reject that scripture.

D&C 20:2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;
3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;

D&C 107:66 Or, in other words, the Presiding High Priest over the High Priesthood of the Church.
67 From the same comes the administering of ordinances and blessings upon the church, by the laying on of the hands.

D&C 27:12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;

D&C 124:91...that my servant Hyrum may take the office of Priesthood and Patriarch, which was appointed unto him by his father, by blessing and also by right;
92 That from henceforth he shall hold the keys of the patriarchal blessings upon the heads of all my people,
93 That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

But BY was a usurper. He changed the doctrine of one wife to many wives, and blamed it on Joseph. Added to the endowment ceremony, "We'll kill those who killed Joseph and Hyrum," (not worded exactly that way, though). He also made up and enforced blood atonement. He did a lot of things to create apostasy. Therefor, any sealing power died with Joseph and Hyrum.

Utter nonsense.

JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 8:04 pm

Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 2:30 pm

JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 5th, 2023, 7:51 pm Because scripture says so:

I could of course quote D&C 132 but most here reject that scripture.

D&C 20:2 Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church;
3 And to Oliver Cowdery, who was also called of God, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the second elder of this church, and ordained under his hand;

D&C 107:66 Or, in other words, the Presiding High Priest over the High Priesthood of the Church.
67 From the same comes the administering of ordinances and blessings upon the church, by the laying on of the hands.

D&C 27:12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;

D&C 124:91...that my servant Hyrum may take the office of Priesthood and Patriarch, which was appointed unto him by his father, by blessing and also by right;
92 That from henceforth he shall hold the keys of the patriarchal blessings upon the heads of all my people,
93 That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

But BY was a usurper. He changed the doctrine of one wife to many wives, and blamed it on Joseph. Added to the endowment ceremony, "We'll kill those who killed Joseph and Hyrum," (not worded exactly that way, though). He also made up and enforced blood atonement. He did a lot of things to create apostasy. Therefor, any sealing power died with Joseph and Hyrum.

Utter nonsense.

I agree with silver pie. I will do my best to explain my thoughts-
First, please check out wiki on blood atonement.

In D&C 124:28-
It starts out saying there is not a place on earth where the Lord can come And Restore again which was lost (unto the church but not Joseph Smith- Joseph had the sealing power which is part of the Fulness of the Priesthood/Patriarchal Priesthood. )


28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.

32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.

33 For verily I say unto you, that after you have had sufficient time to build a house to me, wherein the ordinance of baptizing for the dead belongeth, and for which the same was instituted from before the foundation of the world, your baptisms for your dead cannot be acceptable unto me;

34 For therein are the keys of the holy priesthood ordained, that you may receive honor and glory.

35 And after this time, your baptisms for the dead, by those who are scattered abroad, are not acceptable unto me, saith the Lord.

91 And again, verily I say unto you, let my servant William be appointed, ordained, and anointed, as counselor unto my servant Joseph, in the room of my servant Hyrum, that my servant Hyrum may take the office of Priesthood and Patriarch, which was appointed unto him by his father, by blessing and also by right;

Hyrum Sr was the Patriarch but when Hyrum became worthy he was Blessed by his father to the office of Patriarch- Hyrum had that right because he was the eldest and the Lord by His voice conferred the Patriarchal Priesthood and sealing power

92 That from henceforth he shall hold the keys of the patriarchal blessings upon the heads of all my people,

93 That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

94 And from this time forth I appoint unto him that he may be a prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto my church, as well as my servant Joseph;

95 That he may act in concert also with my servant Joseph; and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and priesthood, and gifts of the priesthood, that once were put upon him that was my servant Oliver Cowdery;

96 That my servant Hyrum may bear record of the things which I shall show unto him, that his name may be had in honorable remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever.

When Hyrum and Joseph were murdered God took the Fulness of the Priesthood and sealing power from the church. I encourage you to do more research on Brigham young-

AgeOfAquarius wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 8:41 pm

JLHPROF wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 8:04 pm

Silver Pie wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 2:30 pm

But BY was a usurper. He changed the doctrine of one wife to many wives, and blamed it on Joseph. Added to the endowment ceremony, "We'll kill those who killed Joseph and Hyrum," (not worded exactly that way, though). He also made up and enforced blood atonement. He did a lot of things to create apostasy. Therefor, any sealing power died with Joseph and Hyrum.

Utter nonsense.

I agree with silver pie. I will do my best to explain my thoughts-
First, please check out wiki on blood atonement.

In D&C 124:28-
It starts out saying there is not a place on earth where the Lord can come And Restore again which was lost (unto the church but not Joseph Smith- Joseph had the sealing power which is part of the Fulness of the Priesthood/Patriarchal Priesthood. )


28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.

31 But I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me.

32 But behold, at the end of this appointment your baptisms for your dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord your God.

33 For verily I say unto you, that after you have had sufficient time to build a house to me, wherein the ordinance of baptizing for the dead belongeth, and for which the same was instituted from before the foundation of the world, your baptisms for your dead cannot be acceptable unto me;

34 For therein are the keys of the holy priesthood ordained, that you may receive honor and glory.

35 And after this time, your baptisms for the dead, by those who are scattered abroad, are not acceptable unto me, saith the Lord.

91 And again, verily I say unto you, let my servant William be appointed, ordained, and anointed, as counselor unto my servant Joseph, in the room of my servant Hyrum, that my servant Hyrum may take the office of Priesthood and Patriarch, which was appointed unto him by his father, by blessing and also by right;

Hyrum Sr was the Patriarch but when Hyrum became worthy he was Blessed by his father to the office of Patriarch- Hyrum had that right because he was the eldest and the Lord by His voice conferred the Patriarchal Priesthood and sealing power

92 That from henceforth he shall hold the keys of the patriarchal blessings upon the heads of all my people,

93 That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

94 And from this time forth I appoint unto him that he may be a prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto my church, as well as my servant Joseph;

95 That he may act in concert also with my servant Joseph; and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and priesthood, and gifts of the priesthood, that once were put upon him that was my servant Oliver Cowdery;

96 That my servant Hyrum may bear record of the things which I shall show unto him, that his name may be had in honorable remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever.

When Hyrum and Joseph were murdered God took the Fulness of the Priesthood and sealing power from the church. I encourage you to do more research on Brigham young-

I accept that the fullness was taken with Joseph (I don't believe Hyrum had anything to do with it). Joseph had the fullness, like Elijah. I don't see that fullness passed down. but, I don't think you know what the fullness means? What do you see as the fullness? I don't see what we have today is the fullness, just admin priesthood to perform the ordinances. but, that is all that is needed, and frankly all that god knew would make it. And it is more than has ever existed on the earth for this long, unless you want to claim one person every few hundred years (Abraham, Melchizedek, Moses, Elijah, John, Jesus). What was sealed after all that we see? Drought, then rain?

Telavian wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 6:02 pm According to this, the HSOP is the testimony of Jesus. Which I agree with. Ultimately in this life if we trust in God and have true faith in him, which is an action, then I think we are sealed to God and become part of his Kingdom. I don't think we need to be born during a certain period of the earth or be part of the "cool kids club". We need to have faith and believe. The doctrine of Christ is so simple, yet we always want it to be more complicated. There is a reason that God says he will save all the works of his hands. Anyone that wants to be saved will be. It will be a conscious choice to not be saved.
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... -burgess/2

Very well said.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 7:20 pm ahhh, you have brought forth an "untruth", about Lucifer not having a body and all. Show me that in canon, not J Fielding or Bruce R............... where does that come from? What does it mean for Lucifer to "fall", that is really figurative and refers to Revelations about falling (shooting) stars. What is the truth here? As you say Joseph clearly says you cannot become perdition without a body, neither before or after a life as a spirit. Same for the one third part, they claim are also perdition.

Kind of makes me lol really, God makes a council, has a vote. All that vote against him, using their agency, become perdition and are thrown out. Some Agency! I've written a thread on this topic (2 actually) and posited that Lucifer and not keeping his first estate (which is true) was not due to his vote or claim of leadership, but for other reasons. I feel he fills a needed role, perhaps role play even, after all this world would not be possible without Satan, there would be no good-vs-evil, no balance. It is a story, but it is a parable. Outside of this life (mortal probation, not even a normal mortality) there is no good or evil, there is just different levels of progression and different levels of laws and different rewards and different powers. None are good or bad, all are just different levels of progress. From simple intelligences that barely act for themselves to gods.

BTW in the beginning of the premortal council the first rule was every person has their agency and it cannot be taken, that includes Lucifer!

I was mainly just questioning the LDS position on things.

I don't know about bodies before this life, however I don't think it matters. Bodies seem to be the end goal in Mormonism however I don't think they matter. According to the Lectures on Faith, God doesn't have a body and why should he? I think it is silly to think a body is needed for anything other than to obey the laws of physics in this realm.

God can abide things not because he has some super powerful, physically impossible molecular structure, but because he doesn't have a molecular structure at all.

I don't think Satan fell before this life, but during it. He was able to enter God's presence and discuss Job. How would this be possible if he was banished along with 1/3 of all people even before this life? Satan is likely part of God's divine council and performing a vital role. Of course he may be going about it wrong.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 7:20 pmKind of makes me lol really, God makes a council, has a vote. All that vote against him, using their agency, become perdition and are thrown out.

I agree that that view is laughable in light of the fact that God views freedom to choose very highly.
I understand that he was thrown out for rebelling. His side lost the vote, and he got ticked off, and tried to take heaven by force.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:45 am I don't know about bodies before this life, however I don't think it matters. Bodies seem to be the end goal in Mormonism however I don't think they matter. According to the Lectures on Faith, God doesn't have a body and why should he? I think it is silly to think a body is needed for anything other than to obey the laws of physics in this realm.

Off topic, but I've noticed recently, as I've read the Lectures on Faith and the scriptures, that there are (2, I think) places where it says God is the Father of lights. It reminds me of those NDEs where the person experiencing it sees, not human forms, but lights. So, if the Father is the father of lights, then are we lights that take physical form?

Having a mortal body is a good way to test us and to let us learn things we could not learn otherwise.

AgeOfAquarius wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 8:41 pm In D&C 124:28-

91 And again, verily I say unto you, let my servant William be appointed, ordained, and anointed, as counselor unto my servant Joseph, in the room of my servant Hyrum, that my servant Hyrum may take the office of Priesthood and Patriarch, which was appointed unto him by his father, by blessing and also by right;

Hyrum Sr was the Patriarch but when Hyrum became worthy he was Blessed by his father to the office of Patriarch- Hyrum had that right because he was the eldest and the Lord by His voice conferred the Patriarchal Priesthood and sealing power

92 That from henceforth he shall hold the keys of the patriarchal blessings upon the heads of all my people,

93 That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

94 And from this time forth I appoint unto him that he may be a prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto my church, as well as my servant Joseph;

95 That he may act in concert also with my servant Joseph; and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and priesthood, and gifts of the priesthood, that once were put upon him that was my servant Oliver Cowdery;

96 That my servant Hyrum may bear record of the things which I shall show unto him, that his name may be had in honorable remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever.

When Hyrum and Joseph were murdered God took the Fulness of the Priesthood and sealing power from the church. I encourage you to do more research on Brigham young-

This doesn't seem to be common knowledge among the LDS, that Hyrum was considered by God to be every bit a prophet, seer, and revelator as was Joseph. When God took Joseph, he also took Hyrum. He took the sealing power away because they were the only two who had it at the time.

When I was 10 years old, I knew more about Brigham than maybe I ought to have. One of my older brothers had been a genealogy fanatic since he was a kid. By the time I was 10, he was also researching LDS history, and telling our mom what he'd learned - and I was there when he was talking to her. It made me dislike BY (though my brother didn't discover that it was BY who started spiritual wifery. I knew when I was a little kid that BY had started it, not JS. As a teenager, I learned the JS had started it - then, 10-11 years ago, I learned that I'd been right in the first place).

At exactly 100 votes

• 49% believe lds marriages are or probably are invalid

• 32% believe they are or probably are valid

• 19% are undecided or ‘other’

Just want to point this out.... Eyring gave a talk in 2012 talking about sealings, priesthood, etc. In some of the talk I disagree with how he explains priesthood and sealing power. As I mentioned in an earlier post I believe that God took the Fullness of the Priesthood, Patriarchal Priesthood and Sealing power from the church when Hyrum and Joseph were murdered. Eyring does bring up something in the talk that I absolutely agree with----

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... t?lang=eng

Families under Covenant

By President Henry B. Eyring


.......  Melchizedek Priesthood holders who are fathers in sealed families have been taught what they must do. There is nothing that has come or will come into your family as important as the sealing blessings. There is nothing more important than honoring the marriage and family covenants you have made or will make in the temples of God.

The way to do that is clear. The Holy Spirit of Promise, through our obedience and sacrifice, must seal our temple covenants in order to be realized in the world to come President Harold B. Lee explained what it means to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise by quoting Elder Melvin J. Ballard: “We may deceive men but we cannot deceive the Holy Ghost, and our blessings will not be eternal unless they are also sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. The Holy Ghost is one who reads the thoughts and hearts of men, and gives his sealing approval to the blessings pronounced upon their heads. Then it is binding, efficacious, and of full force.”......


“No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;....

Telavian wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 7:45 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 6th, 2023, 7:20 pm ahhh, you have brought forth an "untruth", about Lucifer not having a body and all. Show me that in canon, not J Fielding or Bruce R............... where does that come from? What does it mean for Lucifer to "fall", that is really figurative and refers to Revelations about falling (shooting) stars. What is the truth here? As you say Joseph clearly says you cannot become perdition without a body, neither before or after a life as a spirit. Same for the one third part, they claim are also perdition.

Kind of makes me lol really, God makes a council, has a vote. All that vote against him, using their agency, become perdition and are thrown out. Some Agency! I've written a thread on this topic (2 actually) and posited that Lucifer and not keeping his first estate (which is true) was not due to his vote or claim of leadership, but for other reasons. I feel he fills a needed role, perhaps role play even, after all this world would not be possible without Satan, there would be no good-vs-evil, no balance. It is a story, but it is a parable. Outside of this life (mortal probation, not even a normal mortality) there is no good or evil, there is just different levels of progression and different levels of laws and different rewards and different powers. None are good or bad, all are just different levels of progress. From simple intelligences that barely act for themselves to gods.

BTW in the beginning of the premortal council the first rule was every person has their agency and it cannot be taken, that includes Lucifer!

I was mainly just questioning the LDS position on things.

I don't know about bodies before this life, however I don't think it matters. Bodies seem to be the end goal in Mormonism however I don't think they matter. According to the Lectures on Faith, God doesn't have a body and why should he? I think it is silly to think a body is needed for anything other than to obey the laws of physics in this realm.

God can abide things not because he has some super powerful, physically impossible molecular structure, but because he doesn't have a molecular structure at all.

I don't think Satan fell before this life, but during it. He was able to enter God's presence and discuss Job. How would this be possible if he was banished along with 1/3 of all people even before this life? Satan is likely part of God's divine council and performing a vital role. Of course he may be going about it wrong.

Interesting sounds like you parrot eastern religions. In fact, the VERY opposite is true. the entire purpose of god is to bring to pass the "Immortality" and "eternal life" of man. So, the purpose of god is to create a process where by we can have an immortal body/soul and use the power it brings appropriately. The entire purpose of "life" is a body. It is the MOST essential part of happiness. there is no happiness w/o a body (see Paul's teachings here and Joseph's).

funny, one of the very first Star Trek's was about a species evolving to not need a body having transcended, only to find out all that mattered was having a body and touching and loving and feeling, etc... the entire purpose of spiritual beings is to become alive, at all costs really. To say bodies aren't important IMO is to say you don't know god.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 11:53 am Interesting sounds like you parrot eastern religions. In fact, the VERY opposite is true. the entire purpose of god is to bring to pass the "Immortality" and "eternal life" of man. So, the purpose of god is to create a process where by we can have an immortal body/soul and use the power it brings appropriately. The entire purpose of "life" is a body. It is the MOST essential part of happiness. there is no happiness w/o a body (see Paul's teachings here and Joseph's).

funny, one of the very first Star Trek's was about a species evolving to not need a body having transcended, only to find out all that mattered was having a body and touching and loving and feeling, etc... the entire purpose of spiritual beings is to become alive, at all costs really. To say bodies aren't important IMO is to say you don't know god.

To say bodies are the end goal of creation is to say you believe Brigham more than God.
If God has a body then how does he operate outside of time and space? He doesn't. Therefore there exists a realm where God doesn't exist.

If God has a body then does he have internal organs? Do they do anything? Does he literally just have an empty shell of a body with no organs?

You are assuming that God has a body because he needs it to have eternal intercourse with his trillion wives. There are so many assumptions we make and then when we read truth, we discount it because it violates our assumptions.

Telavian wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 1:22 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 11:53 am Interesting sounds like you parrot eastern religions. In fact, the VERY opposite is true. the entire purpose of god is to bring to pass the "Immortality" and "eternal life" of man. So, the purpose of god is to create a process where by we can have an immortal body/soul and use the power it brings appropriately. The entire purpose of "life" is a body. It is the MOST essential part of happiness. there is no happiness w/o a body (see Paul's teachings here and Joseph's).

funny, one of the very first Star Trek's was about a species evolving to not need a body having transcended, only to find out all that mattered was having a body and touching and loving and feeling, etc... the entire purpose of spiritual beings is to become alive, at all costs really. To say bodies aren't important IMO is to say you don't know god.

To say bodies are the end goal of creation is to say you believe Brigham more than God.
If God has a body then how does he operate outside of time and space? He doesn't. Therefore there exists a realm where God doesn't exist.

If God has a body then does he have internal organs? Do they do anything? Does he literally just have an empty shell of a body with no organs?

You are assuming that God has a body because he needs it to have eternal intercourse with his trillion wives. There are so many assumptions we make and then when we read truth, we discount it because it violates our assumptions.

I believe god and receive revelation via his spirit. Not sure why such a silly comment that having, needing and desiring a body would be attributed to BY? Foolishness IMO.

First because we know god's power comes from combing spirit and body, which is life and he is life eternal. and because that is what he says. And in EVERYTHING Jesus teaches is resurrection, which is being born again with a body.

D&C 45: 17 For as ye have looked upon the long absence of your spirits from your bodies to be a bondage, I will show unto you how the day of redemption shall come,

D&C 138: 50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

God does NOT live outside space and time in any way. Sounds like Catholic doctrine to me. Abraham, Mose, Joseph, etc talk of "god's time" in many verses and never says god is without time, but that his time is "endless" and "Endless" is his name. Joseph clearly teaches god uses natural laws to perform all his works, that is "within" time and space.
All we know about celestial bodies is they are: incorruptible, eternal, forever, can dwell in eternal burnings, etc... We know he has body that is tangible and made of flesh and bone, nothing is stated of internal organs. Jesus did eat honeycomb and fish after resurrection.

And BTW I'm not ASSUMING god has a body, I know it! It has been revealed to me such truth, I have many things I assume but that just ain't one of them.

Would like to see your source on the trillion wives thing, I suppose that is pulled from backside? It does show a complete lack of comprehension of who, what and even where god is, let alone even comprehending is mission statement to bring "man" to immortality, which is an eternal/endless body.

Not sure there is much we can discuss on this as I am a follower of Jesus and believe his and Joseph's words, not too concerned with sectarian notions of resurrection as they are ill founded and incomplete.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 5:36 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 1:22 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 11:53 am Interesting sounds like you parrot eastern religions. In fact, the VERY opposite is true. the entire purpose of god is to bring to pass the "Immortality" and "eternal life" of man. So, the purpose of god is to create a process where by we can have an immortal body/soul and use the power it brings appropriately. The entire purpose of "life" is a body. It is the MOST essential part of happiness. there is no happiness w/o a body (see Paul's teachings here and Joseph's).

funny, one of the very first Star Trek's was about a species evolving to not need a body having transcended, only to find out all that mattered was having a body and touching and loving and feeling, etc... the entire purpose of spiritual beings is to become alive, at all costs really. To say bodies aren't important IMO is to say you don't know god.

To say bodies are the end goal of creation is to say you believe Brigham more than God.
If God has a body then how does he operate outside of time and space? He doesn't. Therefore there exists a realm where God doesn't exist.

If God has a body then does he have internal organs? Do they do anything? Does he literally just have an empty shell of a body with no organs?

You are assuming that God has a body because he needs it to have eternal intercourse with his trillion wives. There are so many assumptions we make and then when we read truth, we discount it because it violates our assumptions.

And BTW I'm not ASSUMING god has a body, I know it! It has been revealed to me such truth, I have many things I assume but that just ain't one of them.

I respect your witness of the nature of god. I generally accept other's experiences when they are expressed in certainty , as you have done. I have had my own and I generally don't discuss them in any detail because they would not typically be accepted. Those types of experiences are given as certainties that are etched into our soul by God.

Is it possible that god, as you have described him, is a vessel as we are, of the Father of all? The life of the spirit, the breath of life itself? Not a being that organizes matter, a being that created all matter.

FrankOne wrote: ↑December 8th, 2023, 11:58 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 5:36 pm

Telavian wrote: ↑December 7th, 2023, 1:22 pm

To say bodies are the end goal of creation is to say you believe Brigham more than God.
If God has a body then how does he operate outside of time and space? He doesn't. Therefore there exists a realm where God doesn't exist.

If God has a body then does he have internal organs? Do they do anything? Does he literally just have an empty shell of a body with no organs?

You are assuming that God has a body because he needs it to have eternal intercourse with his trillion wives. There are so many assumptions we make and then when we read truth, we discount it because it violates our assumptions.

And BTW I'm not ASSUMING god has a body, I know it! It has been revealed to me such truth, I have many things I assume but that just ain't one of them.

I respect your witness of the nature of god. I generally accept other's experiences when they are expressed in certainty , as you have done. I have had my own and I generally don't discuss them in any detail because they would not typically be accepted. Those types of experiences are given as certainties that are etched into our soul by God.

Is it possible that god, as you have described him, is a vessel as we are, of the Father of all? The life of the spirit, the breath of life itself? Not a being that organizes matter, a being that created all matter.

Everyone has right to their own worshipping. For me the answer is NO, I feel i can comprehend the very beginning in principle and with what Joseph taught. I cannot put the genie back into the bottle

I need to ask a simple question. How many, if any, on FF even believe that a heavenly father and a heavenly mother can have offspring? How many feel that the creature in LDS terminology of premortal existence of "spirit child" believe they are created by or come from an eternal mother, or that such a being as offspring of celestial parents would be actually a celestial being?

I guess the vagueness of the PSR's and 200 year of teaching post-Joseph have made such discussions moot and vague and figurative and notional. I mean we have LDS saying that god (I suppose the father) created spirit children which are not celestial but lived with him (and perhaps his wife) then came here and for the very first time clothed in bodies? There is no a place for a wife or a mother in this. Even if you find a polite mention of mother, there is no motherhood in the LDS story today. Does that make any sense to anyone?

I see people accept it. I did, or at least I never thought of it for many years, just accepting what Fielding and others made up, and/or we just couldn't know. But it doesn't have any common sense.

Usually, I'd say "who cares", if some are just struggling to work through daily efforts of telestiality, so be it. But, my best friend's sister said she didn't know (just after becoming active for first time in 40 years) if she wanted to be in celestial. The LDS paint it as so vague. As do most of the thinkers on FF. To the learned, even here, the most glory we can bring to god is to make him vague and unknowable, more separate from man that possible, abstract. Yet we preach to know him is eternal life (or that is what Jesus preached anyway).

The OP asked about temple marriages. Well, they surely mean nothing to anyone that doesn't accept there is man and wife in celestial, that doesn't accept that "endless" means offspring and children, that doesn't accept offspring comes from Mother in some way or other, that thinks god the father or a god or a father or a man called "the son" just fashions some spirit matter into an exact likeness of himself and make is live out of nothing but his good graces, that doesn't believe Joseph and the scriptures that say man came from intelligence and is spirit and a soul is spirit and body.

I think a better OP might start with POLL; Is there mothers and fathers in celestial realm....... If not, then don't bother commenting on value of an earthly ordinance to make one up. If yes, then how else could one rise to that level in this or another mortality?