LDS Freedom Forum

I was lying in bed thinking about the widows mite and how the story would be received on LDS FF today, and how it would be written by many.

Here is what Mark said.
42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

But, in reality it would be considered by most inappropriate taxing of the poor, and today on FF Jesus would have condemned her for wasting her money.

There would be a watchman by the door of the temple. He would reluctantly tell her that she should not give her offering. It was meant to be ok in the past but that was before Herod, and current HPs, they money is used to make the temple rich. He even wrote a pamphlet about the evils of donating money to the temples coffers, he would like her to read it but alas, she cannot read. It is pointed out that the HP was consorting with Herod the King and supporting the evil Romans. Everyone knows that the Jewish leaders are in league with the Romans to overthrow Jewish freedoms. The HP and the Sanhedrin get rich from the money, they wear fine apparel, have enormous homes and even attack Jesus n their spare time. the HP was seen recently in the Kings home greeting Roman leaders with hugs that are usually associated with priests greeting each other on the temple grounds. Obviously the HP was using the unneeded money to buy harlots and engage in SRA on the temple grounds, why else would no one be allowed in the holy of holies. After all this when the widow cast her mite anyway, he would engage in following her around and brow beating her into feeling stupid about her donation, there are after all poor among them, and homeless Essenes that cannot even afford nice clothes or haircuts, much more needy than the HP and his friends.

When all was over and done and she left the temple, the question would still be asked, "what the heck was Jesus saying about her gift being so special". I suppose they would just determine that Jesus was misquoted and really meant she should have kept her mite, I mean tithing the poor is well..................

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 11:44 am There would be a watchman by the door of the temple. He would reluctantly tell her that she should not give her offering.

Well played, Duke.

https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/tithe-the-poor

The story of the Widow is about consecration. How's that working out for the modern LDS org and their temple covenants?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 11:47 am

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 11:44 am There would be a watchman by the door of the temple. He would reluctantly tell her that she should not give her offering.

Well played, Duke.

https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/tithe-the-poor

The story of the Widow is about consecration. How's that working out for the modern LDS org and their temple covenants?

There is nothing about consecration in the widow's mite. There is no discussion of why or how or her past or her expectations. It is about sacrifice, ok, but to claim consecration is teachings of men, mingled with scripture.

I cannot say how things work for a website (LDS.org) but it seems to have brought many to the Lord. It has been a major step (according to the spirit) in my obtaining a promise of exaltation. I know several others on the path as well. I cannot speak for the millions et al, and I don't think the concept of LDS.org (website or organization) obtaining salvation or exaltation makes any sense. I see those that no longer believe breaking into several groups. One honestly seeking to do what they feel is right, but the vocal ones just wanting to tred down what they no longer feel is deserving. More energy in tearing down than building up........

The moral dissonance in your post is really disturbing, Duke. Are you saying that things like SRA, embezzlement, fraud, and malfeasance aren't being committed by the leadership, or that they don't matter and we should let the Lord work about all of that?

Because there's so much incontrovertible evidence for embezzlement, fraud, and malfeasance among the Q15 that I think even you accept that it is happening. I believe that there's a substantial amount of evidence for the SRA among quite a few of our general leaders, as well, but I doubt that you accept this.

In any case, it seems that to you it doesn't matter which is true. We should ignore the responsibilities the Lord has given all priesthood holders teacher and above to watch over the Church to see that there is no iniquity and the duty he gave to all members to see that there is no iniquity in the Church.

It also seems that you are in favor of taking precious resources from needy children via fraud. To me, that's offending his little ones and is firmly in milestone territory.

Remember, the Lord didn't commend the woman's actions or recommend that others go and do likewise. He merely illustrated that he judges things based on circumstances, not on outward appearances.

Atrasado wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 12:11 pm The moral dissonance in your post is really disturbing, Duke. Are you saying that things like SRA, embezzlement, fraud, and malfeasance aren't being committed by the leadership, or that they don't matter and we should let the Lord work about all of that?

Because there's so much incontrovertible evidence for embezzlement, fraud, and malfeasance among the Q15 that I think even you accept that it is happening. I believe that there's a substantial amount of evidence for the SRA among quite a few of our general leaders, as well, but I doubt that you accept this.

In any case, it seems that to you it doesn't matter which is true. We should ignore the responsibilities the Lord has given all priesthood holders teacher and above to watch over the Church to see that there is no iniquity and the duty he gave to all members to see that there is no iniquity in the Church.

It also seems that you are in favor of taking precious resources from needy children via fraud. To me, that's offending his little ones and is firmly in milestone territory.

Remember, the Lord didn't commend the woman's actions or recommend that others go and do likewise. He merely illustrated that he judges things based on circumstances, not on outward appearances.

Please don't make up words to put in my mouth. the discussion of SRA, etc... was just so parallel such off-topic excuses on FF about tithes. My point is that excuses are made over and over, are the leaders righteous enough to take the donations, now you are claiming w/o ONE SHRED of evidence there is embezzlement and fraud in tithes. Perfect example. Now you mapping tithes to the poor.

Do you not read the bible. In this case it was the poor that gave the mite and was (according to Jesus) blessed for it.... If you wish to refute the story or put more context, feel free, but all the other points I made are just to show that is what is said on previous tithing threads on the Forum and Jesus just didn't seem to care. He'd whip the exchangers, rip the HP and priests a new one, but never said that the widow wasn't valiant and blessed.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 11:56 am There is nothing about consecration in the widow's mite.

I believe it had everything to do with consecration. The rich men gave little, the woman gave her all.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 12:43 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 11:56 am There is nothing about consecration in the widow's mite.

I believe it had everything to do with consecration. The rich men gave little, the woman gave her all.

Ok, please provide your personal definition of consecration, because it doesn't fit the normal English version nor that of LDS dictionary. I know you have your own free will and like to redefine things.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 12:45 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 12:43 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 11:56 am There is nothing about consecration in the widow's mite.

I believe it had everything to do with consecration. The rich men gave little, the woman gave her all.

Ok, please provide your personal definition of consecration, because it doesn't fit the normal English version nor that of LDS dictionary. I know you have your own free will and like to redefine things.

This isn’t that complicated…

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 1:00 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 12:45 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 12:43 pm
I believe it had everything to do with consecration. The rich men gave little, the woman gave her all.

Ok, please provide your personal definition of consecration, because it doesn't fit the normal English version nor that of LDS dictionary. I know you have your own free will and like to redefine things.

This isn’t that complicated…

Good then explain

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 11:44 am I was lying in bed thinking about the widows mite and how the story would be received on LDS FF today, and how it would be written by many.

Here is what Mark said.
42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

But, in reality it would be considered by most inappropriate taxing of the poor, and today on FF Jesus would have condemned her for wasting her money.

There would be a watchman by the door of the temple. He would reluctantly tell her that she should not give her offering. It was meant to be ok in the past but that was before Herod, and current HPs, they money is used to make the temple rich. He even wrote a pamphlet about the evils of donating money to the temples coffers, he would like her to read it but alas, she cannot read. It is pointed out that the HP was consorting with Herod the King and supporting the evil Romans. Everyone knows that the Jewish leaders are in league with the Romans to overthrow Jewish freedoms. The HP and the Sanhedrin get rich from the money, they wear fine apparel, have enormous homes and even attack Jesus n their spare time. the HP was seen recently in the Kings home greeting Roman leaders with hugs that are usually associated with priests greeting each other on the temple grounds. Obviously the HP was using the unneeded money to buy harlots and engage in SRA on the temple grounds, why else would no one be allowed in the holy of holies. After all this when the widow cast her mite anyway, he would engage in following her around and brow beating her into feeling stupid about her donation, there are after all poor among them, and homeless Essenes that cannot even afford nice clothes or haircuts, much more needy than the HP and his friends.

When all was over and done and she left the temple, the question would still be asked, "what the heck was Jesus saying about her gift being so special". I suppose they would just determine that Jesus was misquoted and really meant she should have kept her mite, I mean tithing the poor is well..................

Very thought provoking. Wickedness has happened in every institution, government, tribe, religion, family since the beginning of time and will continue till the end of time. I guess the lesson would be that we are commanded to be righteous under any and all circumstances, corrupt leaders or otherwise.

"Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation."

CuriousThinker wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 9:22 pm "Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation."

exactly..the widow was not responsible for what the wicked priests did with the Lords goods.....let the just be judged with the wicked..who may or not be pretending to be righteous.

farmerchick wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2023, 6:37 pm ..the widow was not responsible for what the wicked priests did with the Lords goods.....

And yet if a widow (or anyone else) insists on being willfully blind to undeniable financial corruption in the church, then they will be responsible for that.

Are we saved by ignorance? Partly? Then at some point, God’s like, “I gave you a brain to use and like the slothful servant, you buried your potential.” God knows our hearts and intentions and is a perfect judge.

Thinker wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2023, 6:53 pm

farmerchick wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2023, 6:37 pm ..the widow was not responsible for what the wicked priests did with the Lords goods.....

And yet if a widow (or anyone else) insists on being willfully blind to undeniable financial corruption in the church, then they will be responsible for that.

Are we saved by ignorance? Partly? Then at some point, God’s like, “I gave you a brain to use and like the slothful servant, you buried your potential.” God knows our hearts and intentions and is a perfect judge.

no I don't believe they will.....everyone has agency and if donated with a pure heart, without guile, expecting the servant of the vineyard to do as he is supposed to do with sacred resources given....the widow will be held blameless and will be obedient in the eyes of the Lord....possibly blessed temporally and of course spiritually if the Lord sees fit......then the Lord's supposed representative/servants will bear the burden of the misapplication of the sacred resources dutifully and obediently given for the Lord's house.....this is my interpretation as I've learned that my duty as a disciple of Christ is not canceled out because of someone else's free agency. At some point, the buck stops with each of us to do the "right thing." And your right, God knows our hearts and intentions and is a perfect judge....I'm quite at peace with that as a tithe payer and I do believe there will be a reckoning for the Lord's house and his "servants" who will answer to him for their stewardship even if they have never seen him or heard him in mortality. Steadying the Ark is a dangerous proposition as bad things happen to those who have no business doing it.....as we've been told in scripture......but each to his own..just my lowly opinion.

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 11:44 am I was lying in bed thinking about the widows mite and how the story would be received on LDS FF today, and how it would be written by many.

Here is what Mark said.
42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

But, in reality it would be considered by most inappropriate taxing of the poor, and today on FF Jesus would have condemned her for wasting her money.

There would be a watchman by the door of the temple. He would reluctantly tell her that she should not give her offering. It was meant to be ok in the past but that was before Herod, and current HPs, they money is used to make the temple rich. He even wrote a pamphlet about the evils of donating money to the temples coffers, he would like her to read it but alas, she cannot read. It is pointed out that the HP was consorting with Herod the King and supporting the evil Romans. Everyone knows that the Jewish leaders are in league with the Romans to overthrow Jewish freedoms. The HP and the Sanhedrin get rich from the money, they wear fine apparel, have enormous homes and even attack Jesus n their spare time. the HP was seen recently in the Kings home greeting Roman leaders with hugs that are usually associated with priests greeting each other on the temple grounds. Obviously the HP was using the unneeded money to buy harlots and engage in SRA on the temple grounds, why else would no one be allowed in the holy of holies. After all this when the widow cast her mite anyway, he would engage in following her around and brow beating her into feeling stupid about her donation, there are after all poor among them, and homeless Essenes that cannot even afford nice clothes or haircuts, much more needy than the HP and his friends.

When all was over and done and she left the temple, the question would still be asked, "what the heck was Jesus saying about her gift being so special". I suppose they would just determine that Jesus was misquoted and really meant she should have kept her mite, I mean tithing the poor is well..................

Interesting event in the life of Jesus!
So this history raises the question - what became of the widow's mite? what was that money/donation used for? was there a committee on the disposition of tithes? was it a tithe, or some other donation?
do we really know?

BroJones wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2023, 7:46 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 11:44 am I was lying in bed thinking about the widows mite and how the story would be received on LDS FF today, and how it would be written by many.

Here is what Mark said.
42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

But, in reality it would be considered by most inappropriate taxing of the poor, and today on FF Jesus would have condemned her for wasting her money.

There would be a watchman by the door of the temple. He would reluctantly tell her that she should not give her offering. It was meant to be ok in the past but that was before Herod, and current HPs, they money is used to make the temple rich. He even wrote a pamphlet about the evils of donating money to the temples coffers, he would like her to read it but alas, she cannot read. It is pointed out that the HP was consorting with Herod the King and supporting the evil Romans. Everyone knows that the Jewish leaders are in league with the Romans to overthrow Jewish freedoms. The HP and the Sanhedrin get rich from the money, they wear fine apparel, have enormous homes and even attack Jesus n their spare time. the HP was seen recently in the Kings home greeting Roman leaders with hugs that are usually associated with priests greeting each other on the temple grounds. Obviously the HP was using the unneeded money to buy harlots and engage in SRA on the temple grounds, why else would no one be allowed in the holy of holies. After all this when the widow cast her mite anyway, he would engage in following her around and brow beating her into feeling stupid about her donation, there are after all poor among them, and homeless Essenes that cannot even afford nice clothes or haircuts, much more needy than the HP and his friends.

When all was over and done and she left the temple, the question would still be asked, "what the heck was Jesus saying about her gift being so special". I suppose they would just determine that Jesus was misquoted and really meant she should have kept her mite, I mean tithing the poor is well..................

Interesting event in the life of Jesus!
So this history raises the question - what became of the widow's mite? what was that money/donation used for? was there a committee on the disposition of tithes? was it a tithe, or some other donation?
do we really know?

good question..as far as any of us know, it was squandered at worst and used by the flawed authority at best.....either way not sure it mattered to any of us how it was used.

From my perspective, this discussion completely, completely misses the fundamental point of the Widow’s Mite, on both sides.

There is no reason to believe that it has anything to do with who received her measly mites, and what they were used for. It has everything to do with her sacrifice, and the motives and intentions of her heart — regardless of who received the money, and what it was used for.

It is consistent with all of the substantive principles of Christ’s Christian message: How you treat your adversaries may be more important than how you treat your family and friends. If someone (anyone) asks for you r coat, give them your cloak also. If someone (anyone) asks you to go a mile, go two. Don’t skimp. Don’t scotch. Don’t be lukewarm and half-a$$ed. Give it your all, whether it be the church, your fellowman, or whatever. It is better not to give at all, and/or to give fully to a cause you can believe in, than it is to skim the surface, give only of your abundance, and make no real sacrifice.

Coupled with the rest of Christ’s teachings, is that not the real, fundamental message of the Widow’s Mite?

BroJones wrote: ↑December 2nd, 2023, 7:46 pm

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 11:44 am I was lying in bed thinking about the widows mite and how the story would be received on LDS FF today, and how it would be written by many.

Here is what Mark said.
42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

But, in reality it would be considered by most inappropriate taxing of the poor, and today on FF Jesus would have condemned her for wasting her money.

There would be a watchman by the door of the temple. He would reluctantly tell her that she should not give her offering. It was meant to be ok in the past but that was before Herod, and current HPs, they money is used to make the temple rich. He even wrote a pamphlet about the evils of donating money to the temples coffers, he would like her to read it but alas, she cannot read. It is pointed out that the HP was consorting with Herod the King and supporting the evil Romans. Everyone knows that the Jewish leaders are in league with the Romans to overthrow Jewish freedoms. The HP and the Sanhedrin get rich from the money, they wear fine apparel, have enormous homes and even attack Jesus n their spare time. the HP was seen recently in the Kings home greeting Roman leaders with hugs that are usually associated with priests greeting each other on the temple grounds. Obviously the HP was using the unneeded money to buy harlots and engage in SRA on the temple grounds, why else would no one be allowed in the holy of holies. After all this when the widow cast her mite anyway, he would engage in following her around and brow beating her into feeling stupid about her donation, there are after all poor among them, and homeless Essenes that cannot even afford nice clothes or haircuts, much more needy than the HP and his friends.

When all was over and done and she left the temple, the question would still be asked, "what the heck was Jesus saying about her gift being so special". I suppose they would just determine that Jesus was misquoted and really meant she should have kept her mite, I mean tithing the poor is well..................

Interesting event in the life of Jesus!
So this history raises the question - what became of the widow's mite? what was that money/donation used for? was there a committee on the disposition of tithes? was it a tithe, or some other donation?
do we really know?

of course there was! But what we do know fully is that it didn't matter to either the widow or the savior.

tmac wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 10:55 am From my perspective, this discussion completely, completely misses the fundamental point of the Widow’s Mite, on both sides.

There is no reason to believe that it has anything to do with who received her measly mites, and what they were used for. It has everything to do with her sacrifice, and the motives and intentions of her heart — regardless of who received the money, and what it was used for.

It is consistent with all of the substantive principles of Christ’s Christian message: How you treat your adversaries may be mor important than how you treat your family and friends. If someone (anyone) asks for you r coat, give them your cloak also. If someone (anyone) asks you to go a mile, go two. Don’t skimp. Don’t scotch. Don’t be lukewarm and half-a$$ed. Give it your all, whether it be the church, your fellowman, or whatever. It is better not to give at all, and/or to give fully to a cause you can believe in, than it is to skim the surface, give only of your abundance, and not really sacrifice.

Coupled with the rest of Christ’s teachings, is that not the real message of the Widow’s Mite?

sure in the bigger picture, but the point of this thread is that the actual use (i.e. by HP that murdered Jesus later) doesn't matter. Jesus called down several aspects of Jewish Pharasee worship, but this is not one of them. And the point here is the money, the temple was twisted between Herod and taxes and Rome and Jewish donations, and Jesus didn't complain, like so many on FF!

As the Lord told me directly, my covenants say I will tithe. If I wish the reward tithe. If I no longer wish the reward, walk away. If it is wasted RMN and co, will be held accountable. Then he hung up the connection and no matter how hard I try to take the topic up again, he lets me simply know that he said his piece and it is up to me to make my choice. Yet others say to follow a commandment or worse to expect a reward entered into by covenant, shouldn't really expect us to keep our end of the covenant, I mean we entered it under SWK and now we have RMN and the church was poor and is now rich. So, we're off the hook. We can just walk away from our covenants because we don't like or didn't understand the implications of an "eternal" promise.................................. Didn't bother Jesus as it turns out. Of course, he just got more coins from fishes mouths when he needed them!

There are many ways to tithe. I agree that however you decide to do it should be with full purpose of heart. But if you (or anyone) decides to tithe by giving in full measure to someone in greater need, I’m not sure that you’re in a position to say that God will use that as a strike against you/them.

But perhaps just as important, why not just live and let live, and not worry so much about how everyone else does things and arguably falls short? If in living in accordance with the dictates of your own conscience, you give anonymously and with full purpose of heart to the Church — or not (to another cause?) — what difference should it make to you or anyone else what someone else does in that regard?

Otherwise, is it not just another form of virtue signaling, which, as far as I can tell, is completely contrary to all of Christ’s fundamental substantive message(s)?

TheDuke wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 12:35 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑December 1st, 2023, 12:11 pm The moral dissonance in your post is really disturbing, Duke. Are you saying that things like SRA, embezzlement, fraud, and malfeasance aren't being committed by the leadership, or that they don't matter and we should let the Lord work about all of that?

Because there's so much incontrovertible evidence for embezzlement, fraud, and malfeasance among the Q15 that I think even you accept that it is happening. I believe that there's a substantial amount of evidence for the SRA among quite a few of our general leaders, as well, but I doubt that you accept this.

In any case, it seems that to you it doesn't matter which is true. We should ignore the responsibilities the Lord has given all priesthood holders teacher and above to watch over the Church to see that there is no iniquity and the duty he gave to all members to see that there is no iniquity in the Church.

It also seems that you are in favor of taking precious resources from needy children via fraud. To me, that's offending his little ones and is firmly in milestone territory.

Remember, the Lord didn't commend the woman's actions or recommend that others go and do likewise. He merely illustrated that he judges things based on circumstances, not on outward appearances.

Please don't make up words to put in my mouth. the discussion of SRA, etc... was just so parallel such off-topic excuses on FF about tithes. My point is that excuses are made over and over, are the leaders righteous enough to take the donations, now you are claiming w/o ONE SHRED of evidence there is embezzlement and fraud in tithes. Perfect example. Now you mapping tithes to the poor.

Do you not read the bible. In this case it was the poor that gave the mite and was (according to Jesus) blessed for it.... If you wish to refute the story or put more context, feel free, but all the other points I made are just to show that is what is said on previous tithing threads on the Forum and Jesus just didn't seem to care. He'd whip the exchangers, rip the HP and priests a new one, but never said that the widow wasn't valiant and blessed.

Duke, there's plenty of evidence of malfeasance. You won't look at the evidence and then you claim that there isn't any.

No, the Savior didn't condemn her sacrifice. He also didn't commend it either. He only noted that relative to the others her sacrifice was larger because she had much less. This he was saying in condemnation of the rich men who ostentatiously donated large sums of money to be seen of men.

As to reading the Bible, I do read it. Carefully. And I can show you many prophecies in the Bible, and other scriptures, criticizing the current leaders of the Church for their greed, mistreatment of the poor, mishandling of funds, and graft. But you won't believe it. Soften your heart, brother, before you make the Lord soften it for you.

I'm not against the Church, I'm doing what I can to try and protect it and stand as a watchman on the tower, as assigned to everyone who belongs to the Church and holds the priesthood.

Atrasado wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 11:27 am
No, the Savior didn't condemn her sacrifice. He also didn't commend it either. He only noted that relative to the others her sacrifice was larger because she had much less. This he was saying in condemnation of the rich men who ostentatiously donated large sums of money to be seen of men.

^^^^ this. Is this not the real message?

I'm with tmac on this one. Until now I had never considered that the widow might have been coerced and assumed (I know) that the donation was relative to being tithed. The rich guys gave lots but compared to their abundance it was a pittance. The widow gave her living away and would now suffer so that others could eat. She followed the example of the Saviour who showed us the way to God. What exactly that means is more worthy of discussion than lambasting the Q15; just sayin'.

Duke, I don't think you got an answer to your question to RW about defining consecration. I don't want to answer for him but I tend to go on quite a bit about this topic on the forum and I'll offer a perspective that RW will certainly appreciate. From the book of Mahnti Chapter 9 (Nemenhah Record). The first half describes how I see the law of consecration to work. I left the remainder of the chapter for those who are interested.

Mike

Chapter Nine

1. The words of Timothy did stir up the hearts of the people of Mentinah to a new dedication to the principles and teachings of the Temple and to a more fervent dedication to the teachings of the Lord. For, because that Jesus did visit us after His resurrection, the people sometimes became complacent because of His condescension unto them. But behold, the words of Timothy did renew in us the spirit of grace that had come upon us when Christ did sit with us and talk with us.
2. Now, I do take seriously the words of Timothy. Wherefore I felt to add unto this record a more clear vision of the manner in which the Nemenhah do live the Law of Consecration. Behold, this is the manner of it:
3. Each family maintains a plot of ground within the city of Mentinah itself. And when a young man and woman engage themselves to each other to be married, the Community Council meets to appoint a place for them. In this we strictly follow the ways and customs of the Ammonihah as laid down in the writings of the prophet Shi-Tugohah.
4. On this ground the family of the bride and groom, but more usually the brothers of the groom, labor together to build a house sufficient to meet the needs of the family. Now, this is not always so. For, sometimes the groom has few or no brothers, and in this case the family of the bride, and even the whole community, steps in to build the house. But there has never been an instance where a new bride and groom have had to begin their lives together in a homeless state.
5. Around about this house, the family sows those plants that are useful for food and which may be grown in sufficient quantity in this manner. Each family is careful to grow more food than is needed by them alone so that there is a surplus of food from their garden. Now, because each family does this, there is always an overabundance of such fresh food in the season thereof, as also of that amount of foodstuffs as may be safely preserved against the day of cold.
6. Each family also labors in some industry which can be done at home. Some put up garden foods to be used by the community in the day of cold. Others prepare dyes and colors from the same produce. Still others labor to provide seeds for subsequent seasons. Yet others prepare many items of common use from the fibers of the plants. Many concentrate their efforts in producing those plants that are especially needed because they provide medicine for the removal of the causes of disease.
7. But this is not all. Many families maintain workshops where goods of common use of all kinds are manufactured. These goods range in kind from the smallest and most inconsequential to the largest tools used by the smiths and mechanics. All these goods are consumables used commonly either directly by the families or by those engaged in larger industries. All of our tools are produced by families in the communities.
8. All of these things are produced by the members of the family, both young and old, depending upon their age and their capacity. And behold, they are not produced for the purpose of getting gain, but are exchanged for goods produced by other families. As there is always a surplus, it is brought to the storehouse and distributed liberally and without constrain unto all those who may need such things.
9. Now, there are many kinds of foods the growing of which is not suited for the small family holding. These things are produced on large tracts of land which do surround the city. Such things as grains of all kinds, cattle, and those plants we use for fibers for the making of cloth, especially linens, are grown outside the city. And behold, all the people go out in turns to work that crop which must be worked, or to labor in caring for livestock. All these things are brought into the city in the time of its harvest and are distributed liberally unto all that might have need of them. The surplus is held in storage and is used in trade with other cities and is exchanged for such things as may not be produced here. The surplus goods are traded equally for goods brought in the caravans from other cities of the Nemenhah, as well as other peoples with whom the city of Mentinah does hold commerce. In this way, we maintain a constant state of association with all the Nemenhah in all parts of the land, as well as with our brethren in the Land Southward, and with other places in the world.
10. The Nemenhah of Mentinah understand that many people in many places do consider themselves the owners of the land upon which they sojourn, and behold, that is their right, for we would not constrain any person to believe as we do. But, the Nemenhah do not consider themselves the owners of the land, but rather, we are stewards of the Lord‟s footstool. This has been our way since the inception of our city, yea, even since the first of our people left the settlements of Hagoth and resorted into our place of fastness. And it pleases me to say that, for the most part, all of the Nemenhah both of the mountains and of the plains, as well as the Nemenhah of Corianton, do so consider themselves.
11. For, how may a man think to own the earth? How may he possess that which is the Lord‟s? Will a man rob God? It is not to be considered. Nevertheless, we know that many peoples of the earth have different ideas than ours and we seek to constrain no one in their thought.
12. But behold, all men and women of the Nemenhah are made equal stewards of the land and no person may dictate to another the stewardship of another. When a family is appointed to steward a holding, their neighbors leave them to it and do not seek to manage what is not their stewardship. If a family neglects their stewardship, the matter is taken up by the Community Council, but no individual ever takes such things upon themselves. But, whereas every family labors diligently for their own support and for the surplus that is to be given unto others, there have been no such cases of neglect, except where there has been incapacity.
13. Now, the Nemenhah take some pride in the beauty of their city, and this might be considered sin in the eyes of some. But it is true. The city of Mentinah is a beautiful place because of the great care with which every family does manage their stewardship, and I can think of no great harm in taking pride in such things.
14. Now, there are numerous herbs grown by the Nemenhah for food. Many have been brought through trade with our brethren in the Land Southward, such as corn and black rice, beans and other ground nuts for the pot, papas, squash and gourds of all kinds, and all manner of leafy herbs for the pot and to be eaten raw. There are also many kinds of roots and tubers grown for food, such as the onion, garlic, camas, kous, bitter and biscuit, all of which have been taken out of the hills and valleys of our mountain home.
15. Of grains there are many, including wheat of the plains, ryegrass, millet and quinoa; some of which are brought in from far away places in the south.
16. Among the most curious of the herbs used as food are the tubers we have acquired in trade with those countries across the western sea. There are bitter and pungent roots known as Dzigon which burn in the mouth but sooth the belly when eaten raw. Yea, many are the strange herbs and plants which have been brought to us in trade with diverse countries.
17. The more important of the herbs grown in the small family holdings are those useful as medicine. Wherefore, I shall attempt to make an accounting of the common household medicine, but I shall not approach the larger task of making an account of the many plants used by the Healers, for their medicine is written in another book.
18. For the defenses of the body and for the cleansing of the blood, the family grows a liberal supply of the Spined Cone, of Yellow Man Root where much water and some shade is available, and the tree known as Arched Limb is also grown as a shade tree near the house. There is also a cancerous growth on the dead trees of the mountains that is highly sought and used for defense against such ailments.
19. To relieve the troubled senses, many small, leafy herbs are grown which have bright and pleasing odors and flavors. These include the Spear and the Hyssop, as well as the Sting and the Water Fodder. These are used in mild draughts to enliven the soul and to bring about a sense of well-being and of internal pleasure. These can also be useful to treat the headache and to clear the skin of pustules brought on by an excess of rich food.
20. There is also the root of a small forest plant that is brought in from the Nemenhah of Corianton that is very sweet and is useful for calming the nerves and also in flavoring other foods. It is called Groundsweet and is highly sought after.
21. In the hotter climate of the Land Southward a strange, sword-like plant grows abundantly in the deserts which is very good also to calm the troubled soul. But this is not all; it is also very good for the belly and relieves the troubled stomach. Its name is Aalowe, and this name is believed to have been adopted from the name given to a similar plant that our forefathers knew of in the land of Father Lehi‟s origin.
22. These are but a few of the common medicines used by the household in treating common complaints of the nerves and of the spirit. They were never rendered or ground too much, the mothers believing that too much alteration of the natural form harms the effectiveness of the medicine.
23. Now, there were also medicines to cleanse the inner sea and the blood, and they include the very bitter herbs which grow readily upon the hills of the valley. They are the Big Bush, and this is distinguished from a similar looking plant known to many as the White and Green Rabbit Fodder by its potent smell and pungent taste. It is bitter when made into a draught and serves to sweeten the waters. Many of the leafy vegetable plants grown in the family garden are also used for this purpose. But behold, one of the medicines most commonly used to sweeten the water is the very earth. The land around Mentinah in many places contains a salty sort of clay that is very useful in sweetening the water and carrying away that which causes putrification in the body. This soil is collected and is added to the soil of the garden where those plants are grown that have similar medicinal action.
24. For complaints of mothers, a comely flowering plant known as Mothers Bloom is used. It is most favored among women because it is gentle and yet very effective for relieving disquiet of the birth bed and its functions. It is also useful in bringing on childbirth safely. There is also a tuberous plant know as Chumrah or Eeyah that is brought in from far in the Land Southward and is very sweet. It is a pulpy plant often used as food, but is very good in controlling disquiet of the birth bed.
25. For complaints of fathers, a noisome smelling berry is used that can only be grown close to the sea in the Land Southward. It is called Palma, and it is believed that this name also comes from times before our fathers came to this land. A beautiful flowering shrub, the root of which is also useful in father‟s complaints and in restriction of flow, has been grown with great success in the gardens of Mentinah, in spite of the fact that it comes from far across the sea.
26. To aid the wind, especially in the day of cold, the families of the Nemenhah grow the Fury Leaf, Fury Staff and they also gather the seeds of the Big Bush. All of these are used in sacred smoke and do relieve restriction of wind because of the thickening of the wetness of the lungs. The small Feather Leaf is also used to relieve pain and irritation of the throat and also to bring down fever when of long and undesirable duration. Some families also use the spiny local plant called Clears The Wind, which is gathered and used in draughts.
27. For the belly and elimination, the bark of a tree known to the Nemenhah in the north has proven very effective and it is one of the medicines for which we trade our fine flaxen cloth with the communities in that part of the country. This dried bark is made into draughts and taken before retiring. This usually brings elimination upon waking. The Aalowe is also used for this purpose. These medicines are rarely needed, however, because of the custom of most of our people of eating foods that they grow themselves and of not relying upon much grinding and rendering in the preparation of food.
28. For ailments of the skin, the Nemenhah use plants and soils that serve to take away wetness and bring tone to the structure of the skin. They also bathe in the hot water springs that are so numerous in the valley.
29. The Nemenhah of Mentinah do not suffer much from ailments of the liver or of the kidneys. We believe that this is because of the quality and variety of the plants we use as food. Many of these plants are bitter and serve to cleanse and bring tone back to these organs without the need of additional medicine.
30. And behold, there are numerous other plants, minerals and even animal medicines that are used by the Nemenhah of Mentinah, and they are grown in abundance in the gardens of the family holdings. But also the Healers dedicate other space for the cultivation of herbs more specifically used in medicine. It is because of this diversity of medicinal plants, minerals and animal products that we believe that we are less stricken with the ailments that are common among other peoples.
31. But I would not that you should think that we rely overmuch upon our knowledge in the healing of our bodies. For, many are the gifts of the Spirit and we do esteem that the gift of healing is both the gift to heal through knowledge and the gift to be healed. And our healers are people with such gifts.
32. Behold, there are those whose gifts allow them to place their hands upon the stricken part of a sufferer‟s body and the part is healed by the power that is in them. And there are those whose gifts include a combination of the knowledge of plants and other healing substances with this same power to heal by the laying on of hands.
33. And still others have a gift for laboring with the workings of the body, returning it to the point before the person was stricken with sickness. This gift is especially useful in the case of accident and where healing from them is slowed because of pain and debility.
34. Some there are among the women of our communities whose gifts have only to do with assisting in the bearing of young, both among our women as also among the females of our beasts. These women provide a great service to our people and they are highly reverenced for this gift that they receive of the Lord and that they are willing to pass on to others.
35. And there are some who have a kind of sight that allows them to see into the body and the illness of a person and direct the hands of others. This combination of gifts has proven invaluable to the Nemenhah. Indeed, many have come from diverse places in the world simply to learn of our Healers of all gifts, most especially of those who have this sight.
36. It is curious to me that the gifts of the Spirit find their home in certain people. Some are healers and some are scholars. Some are artisans and find inspiration beyond that of others to the beautifying of our lives. Yea, I have often times pondered upon these gifts. But I say unto you, The gift that comes to women, to assist in childbirth, is one that I find curious indeed. For, I perceive that very few men ever receive of this healing gift in the same measure as women. Perhaps it is because no man can ever know what it is that women feel in giving birth or perhaps it is a special gift given of Mother in Heaven. I cannot say.
37. And there is another gift that is had by certain few among our communities. Yea, it is a gift that is to be desired by all. It is the gift to discern that portion of the knowledge of other peoples that is most useful to the Nemenhah. For behold, there are many peoples in the world and all have learned somewhat of the things that promote the health of the body. We do send out messengers unto all people and they do return with knowledge derived from foreign lands. It can be difficult at times to decide which of this knowledge is useful and applicable to our way of life. The Holy Ghost speaks to us of truth but does often leave the application unto us. In this sense, they who have the gift of discernment render a labor whose value cannot be estimated.
38. It is enough to say that we do not judge the gifts of the Spirit. One is no greater than the other and all are given so that we may aid and succor one another. But the gifts of healing are among those to which we all most aspire. For, that which wells up in the heart when one sees that another who was sick will not die, but will live on to serve the Lord and his neighbor, is a sensation that fills and completes the soul.
39. Now, for the Nemenhah of Mentinah, medicines constitute a great portion of that which we trade with other cities. For, many of the plants we use are not available here and still others are only available here. Wherefore, we do trade much for medicines and foods that are unique to other areas. These things are not purchased, but are traded liberally and freely. And it is our custom to study the medicine and food of other peoples with whom we come into contact, for thus we have been commanded to do by our God and King.
40. Wherefore, we do consider our medicine as part of the observance of our religion. And in this we feel that we do please our God. For, as often as we send emissaries into other lands to learn their medicines, they do also teach the people of those lands somewhat of our religion also. Wherefore, we do constantly receive visitors from those lands and peoples with whom we engage in trade and commerce, who do come even unto Mentinah to learn more about the covenants and ordinances of the High Place.
41. Now, fish we have in abundance in the lake upon the shores of which our city is built. But behold, they are not large fish. Nevertheless, these small fishes are dried and beaten into a meal for use in many kinds of food. So much of this meal is produced, and so popular is it, that we do engage in much trade of it also. And it is traded for the skins of the great cattle that dwell upon the plains. These are very popular and beautiful and they are used in many kinds of useful things.
42. Yea, the very floors of my own home are covered with these skins and they do greatly increase the warmth and comfort of the whole house. Yea, so desirable were they to me that I did labor vigorously in bringing in the fish and the drying of them and the grinding of them that I might provide an excess of the meal. And with this excess, the Council did trade for many, many skins with which the people did cover the floors of our houses. And this was a great pleasure for me. For, as the keeper of the records of my people, I do not often have opportunity to produce the kind of surplus that is useful for trade. Wherefore, in this did I also gain the pleasure of offering all my surplus for the good and comfort of my community.
43. Now, I include these things in my accounting of the manner in which we do live the Law of Consecration in order that my posterity might gain a more clear view of the manner in which we live. For, it does occur to me that some might think that we live an austere life with little comfort. But one may see that the Lord does greatly prosper us as a city and as a people because of our strict adherence to the laws and commandments which He has given us. Yea, we are drawn continually to give thanks unto the Lord for the way in which we have been blessed and prospered. And we do attribute this great happiness to our observance of the commandments of God.

It sounds a whole lot more like how the Amish and Anabaptists (including Hutterites) live than anything the Mormons have ever done for any significant amount of time.

Atrasado wrote: ↑December 3rd, 2023, 11:27 am
Duke, there's plenty of evidence of malfeasance. You won't look at the evidence and then you claim that there isn't any.

It does appear that you're either incapable of reading my comments or too busy to read them and jump to your conclusions. Please show me where in this thread I have made ANY CLAIM that there is no "malfeasance"? Please show me that! I never said such, I said it DOESNT MATTER to JESUS according to this story. I never said there was none.

So, are you making this claim on purpose (then a lie) or by accident and misreading? Please respond to this specifically if you disagree show MY words from an earlier post. Getting tired of people making their point by changing, adding or making up words that I supposedly said. I guess that is the current moral situation across the globe. Doesn't need to exist on FF.