What is the “right way”? An expose on love.

[Wolfwoman]

Someone tried to tell me that it was the loving thing to do to give alcohol to an alcoholic bum. Nope. That’s not real love.

[Reluctant Watchman]

A few words from Lehi to get the creative juices flowing:

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

Did God say the above or did a Man?

I would call the above, a sequential fallacy created by a Man to make an attempt to answer his own existence and convince others in order to validate his position.

"philosophies of men"

edit to add a brief conclusion to Lehi's words:

"happiness cannot exist if sin does not exist".

False

Do good and evil exist? Does righteousness and wickedness exist?

[FrankOne]

A few words from Lehi to get the creative juices flowing:

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

Did God say the above or did a Man?

I would call the above, a sequential fallacy created by a Man to make an attempt to answer his own existence and convince others in order to validate his position.

"philosophies of men"

edit to add a brief conclusion to Lehi's words:

"happiness cannot exist if sin does not exist".

False

Do good and evil exist? Does righteousness and wickedness exist?

I would think that it's all a matter of who is making the observation.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Did God say the above or did a Man?

I would call the above, a sequential fallacy created by a Man to make an attempt to answer his own existence and convince others in order to validate his position.

"philosophies of men"

edit to add a brief conclusion to Lehi's words:

"happiness cannot exist if sin does not exist".

False

Do good and evil exist? Does righteousness and wickedness exist?

I would think that it's all a matter of who is making the observation.

So you believe moral relativism.

While I do believe each individual have a high degree of flexibility in choosing what we do in this life, there are certain aspects to our very creation that align us with God. We are not left alone to our own devices to simply make up our own rules of right vs wrong. I do believe we each have the light of Christ, and that each of us will work out what that means between us and God. But deep down inside I can’t believe that “anything goes” and that misery doesn’t follow certain actions.

[FrankOne]

Do good and evil exist? Does righteousness and wickedness exist?

I would think that it's all a matter of who is making the observation.

So you believe moral relativism.

While I do believe each individual have a high degree of flexibility in choosing what we do in this life, there are certain aspects to our very creation that align us with God. We are not left alone to our own devices to simply make up our own rules of right vs wrong. I do believe we each have the light of Christ, and that each of us will work out what that means between us and God. But deep down inside I can’t believe that “anything goes” and that misery doesn’t follow certain actions.

No, I do not believe in moral relativism. Moral relativism is as flawed of a concept as Moral Absolutism.

When "God" is introduced into the moral equation in any discussion, the standard of Morality becomes whatever the person believes it is and then quotes one of various "Gods" to back up his stance. It's all subjective.

[FrankOne]

As Hermes said (the guy that created hermetic law) , "Do as thou wilt is the whole of the Law".

The question is, what consequence occurs when a person chooses "as they will"?

Is there such a thing as Universal Law of Action -> Consequence? Absolutely!

[Fight for the right]

Below is a FB post from a cousin of mine. My response (which I’ll share later) led to some interesting discussion.

I’d be curious if you agree or disagree (or have a nuanced view) w/ the following:

I thought my job as a dad was to teach my kids the right way.
I had to learn the “right way” is to just love them.

Chasten they son while there is hope and let not thy soul spare for his crying.
Proverbs 19.18

[JK4Woods]

… Ummm…

So I heard this the other day from a sister who went out to lunch with Stake President's wife last week.

She heard that some of the YM in our stake wards have turned into hooligans. Literally they pick on people, are rude and do rude things.

Because they are juvenile Delinquents the YW won't do combined activities with them anymore.

These YM will go to a supermarket, and climb the shelving and run/jump from shelf to shelf...

Newish young bishop of this ward (a lawyer for wills & trusts) with little kids, who often quotes Disney movies when speaking, has decided a book club is the way to wrangle the kids into some semblance of order....

Book club starts in January....

Where the heck are the parents?!

….Working… double incomes to make ends meet…

[CuriousThinker]

… Ummm…

So I heard this the other day from a sister who went out to lunch with Stake President's wife last week.

She heard that some of the YM in our stake wards have turned into hooligans. Literally they pick on people, are rude and do rude things.

Because they are juvenile Delinquents the YW won't do combined activities with them anymore.

These YM will go to a supermarket, and climb the shelving and run/jump from shelf to shelf...

Newish young bishop of this ward (a lawyer for wills & trusts) with little kids, who often quotes Disney movies when speaking, has decided a book club is the way to wrangle the kids into some semblance of order....

Book club starts in January....

Where the heck are the parents?!

….Working… double incomes to make ends meet…

Perhaps, but I know a lot of dual income homes where those kids would never get away with that. I think it is more of a parenting issue than a two working home issue.

[JK4Woods]

Where the heck are the parents?!

….Working… double incomes to make ends meet…

Perhaps, but I know a lot of dual income homes where those kids would never get away with that. I think it is more of a parenting issue than a two working home issue.

I know what you mean…. I was scoutmaster for five years, when my son was coming up thru the ranks.

Not one to do things halfway, first Weds night I had all the scouts bring any old bike from home or elsewhere. I’d bought an armful of skis from Deseret Industries for $20. We proceeded over next two weeks of activities to convert them into ski bikes.

Then took ‘em snow camping and go riding…
Best fun for two seasons…..

Made our own snow shoes for other two seasons..

Decided the boys needed to be challenged, started hiking with them. Camping plenty. Had them pull together a Ragnar team and we ran a Ragnar relay race, 194 miles in 48 hours… round the clock.

Took ‘em on a 50 miler canoe trip, had them up to the range every couple months trap shooting.

Archery in a serious way too.

Stuff the Dads would make time to go with us…

Made them do hard things…

They became confident and lived the law of the pack…

Didn’t worry about merit badges outside of summer camps, still 2/3rd’s made


Got released planning Mt. Whitney climb and a 500 mile bicycle relay race from Salt Lake to Las Vegas called “Saints to Sinners”…

Think it was because word got back to uptight moms that I’d taught the boys a couple card games… poker being the offending one..

Didn’t play basketball, or have video game nights…

[Seed Starter]

Below is a FB post from a cousin of mine. My response (which I’ll share later) led to some interesting discussion.

I’d be curious if you agree or disagree (or have a nuanced view) w/ the following:

I thought my job as a dad was to teach my kids the right way.
I had to learn the “right way” is to just love them.

Disagree. My first thought is who is he writing this for and where did he hear that? Why would he choose one or the other when doing both is obvious? For me this sounds like something he heard in conference or in a church magazine. I think we should teach our kids the truth as we understand it and love them regardless of how well they listen to us. Teaching truth is important but teaching a child how they can know the truth of things for themselves is key. Teaching spiritual self-sufficiency is a way of showing love. If you don't teach a child right and wrong the child will remain in ignorance. If a parent lets their child remain ignorant how can they claim to love their child? Don't teach them about how to cross a street and then let them be hit by a car and then tell me how much you love them.

Perhaps your cousin gets angry when his kids don't do the right thing and he's saying he needs to show love even when he's disappointed. I know I can work on that. I think I can be more loving but teaching and loving aren't mutually exclusive to me.

[Seed Starter]

….Working… double incomes to make ends meet…

Perhaps, but I know a lot of dual income homes where those kids would never get away with that. I think it is more of a parenting issue than a two working home issue.

I know what you mean…. I was scoutmaster for five years, when my son was coming up thru the ranks.

Not one to do things halfway, first Weds night I had all the scouts bring any old bike from home or elsewhere. I’d bought an armful of skis from Deseret Industries for $20. We proceeded over next two weeks of activities to convert them into ski bikes.

Then took ‘em snow camping and go riding…
Best fun for two seasons…..

Made our own snow shoes for other two seasons..

Decided the boys needed to be challenged, started hiking with them. Camping plenty. Had them pull together a Ragnar team and we ran a Ragnar relay race, 194 miles in 48 hours… round the clock.

Took ‘em on a 50 miler canoe trip, had them up to the range every couple months trap shooting.

Archery in a serious way too.

Stuff the Dads would make time to go with us…

Made them do hard things…

They became confident and lived the law of the pack…

Didn’t worry about merit badges outside of summer camps, still 2/3rd’s made


Got released planning Mt. Whitney climb and a 500 mile bicycle relay race from Salt Lake to Las Vegas called “Saints to Sinners”…

Think it was because word got back to uptight moms that I’d taught the boys a couple card games… poker being the offending one..

Didn’t play basketball, or have video game nights…

Nice! I had some good scout leaders back in the day. About what year were you doing all of this? This is how it should be IMO.

[JK4Woods]

Perhaps, but I know a lot of dual income homes where those kids would never get away with that. I think it is more of a parenting issue than a two working home issue.

I know what you mean…. I was scoutmaster for five years, when my son was coming up thru the ranks.

Not one to do things halfway, first Weds night I had all the scouts bring any old bike from home or elsewhere. I’d bought an armful of skis from Deseret Industries for $20. We proceeded over next two weeks of activities to convert them into ski bikes.

Then took ‘em snow camping and go riding…
Best fun for two seasons…..

Made our own snow shoes for other two seasons..

Decided the boys needed to be challenged, started hiking with them. Camping plenty. Had them pull together a Ragnar team and we ran a Ragnar relay race, 194 miles in 48 hours… round the clock.

Took ‘em on a 50 miler canoe trip, had them up to the range every couple months trap shooting.

Archery in a serious way too.

Stuff the Dads would make time to go with us…

Made them do hard things…

They became confident and lived the law of the pack…

Didn’t worry about merit badges outside of summer camps, still 2/3rd’s made


Got released planning Mt. Whitney climb and a 500 mile bicycle relay race from Salt Lake to Las Vegas called “Saints to Sinners”…

Think it was because word got back to uptight moms that I’d taught the boys a couple card games… poker being the offending one..

Didn’t play basketball, or have video game nights…

Nice! I had some good scout leaders back in the day. About what year were you doing all of this? This is how it should be IMO.

2010-2015…

[Reluctant Watchman]

Below is a FB post from a cousin of mine. My response (which I’ll share later) led to some interesting discussion.

I’d be curious if you agree or disagree (or have a nuanced view) w/ the following:

I thought my job as a dad was to teach my kids the right way.
I had to learn the “right way” is to just love them.

Disagree. My first thought is who is he writing this for and where did he hear that? Why would he choose one or the other when doing both is obvious? For me this sounds like something he heard in conference or in a church magazine. I think we should teach our kids the truth as we understand it and love them regardless of how well they listen to us. Teaching truth is important but teaching a child how they can know the truth of things for themselves is key. Teaching spiritual self-sufficiency is a way of showing love. If you don't teach a child right and wrong the child will remain in ignorance. If a parent lets their child remain ignorant how can they claim to love their child? Don't teach them about how to cross a street and then let them be hit by a car and then tell me how much you love them.

Perhaps your cousin gets angry when his kids don't do the right thing and he's saying he needs to show love even when he's disappointed. I know I can work on that. I think I can be more loving but teaching and loving aren't mutually exclusive to me.

The backstory here is quite important w/ regards to how he’s arrived at this position. I believe he’s having such a negative reaction to LDS culture and dogmas that he’s swinging from what he perceives as strict obedience to no obedience at all. Here was one response he gave me:

Here's some context to explain where I'm coming from. I had an idyllic childhood and thoroughly loved the home and community that raised me. Saying that, I noticed a pattern of language that fostered a decidedly us vs them view. Or at least it was baked into how I took it. In our sacred texts and hymns, I spied enormous amounts of battle metaphors. "Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war," for example. "We are all enlisted til the conflict is o'er," is another. Even Nephites vs Lamanites pitted entire groups against each other without allowing for shades and deviation. When I became a father, I felt duty bound to teach right and wrong, and drive that into my kids so they knew and followed it. To me, that one mandate overrode all others. To be a good father, I needed to hit that mark first and foremost. My knee-jerk habit was to instill this using fear, guilt, and shame. Not always aimed at them, though. Often at myself. It become part of my winning formula: "be a good boy." I took it to extremes, lumping mistakes with sin and condemning them all. Today I would point out that the "battle" and "conflict" is not against sinners, non-Christians, or any of the sort. In fact, it's neither a battle nor a conflict. All life is experience, so I'd encourage my children to reflect on those experiences and do more of what brings joy and less of what brings pain.

I think he makes some good points about how toxic church culture can be. I also don’t agree with him on a few things. He takes a black/white view of the Nephite/Lamanite cultures. There were plenty of “shades and deviations” where these groups both wained in their righteous and wickedness. Heck, one of the most righteous groups we know of were Lamanites. (Anti-Nephi-Lehis)

The church taught him to look down upon others who didn’t hold the same standard, as well as using fear, guilt, and shame (essentially compulsion) to get people to obey, when love really should be the greatest motivator.

He eventually commented/questioned the very dichotomy of right vs wrong. That’s how far he is swinging to the opposite side of the spectrum.

[Reluctant Watchman]

….Working… double incomes to make ends meet…

Perhaps, but I know a lot of dual income homes where those kids would never get away with that. I think it is more of a parenting issue than a two working home issue.

I know what you mean…. I was scoutmaster for five years, when my son was coming up thru the ranks.

Not one to do things halfway, first Weds night I had all the scouts bring any old bike from home or elsewhere. I’d bought an armful of skis from Deseret Industries for $20. We proceeded over next two weeks of activities to convert them into ski bikes.

Then took ‘em snow camping and go riding…
Best fun for two seasons…..

Made our own snow shoes for other two seasons..

Decided the boys needed to be challenged, started hiking with them. Camping plenty. Had them pull together a Ragnar team and we ran a Ragnar relay race, 194 miles in 48 hours… round the clock.

Took ‘em on a 50 miler canoe trip, had them up to the range every couple months trap shooting.

Archery in a serious way too.

Stuff the Dads would make time to go with us…

Made them do hard things…

They became confident and lived the law of the pack…

Didn’t worry about merit badges outside of summer camps, still 2/3rd’s made


Got released planning Mt. Whitney climb and a 500 mile bicycle relay race from Salt Lake to Las Vegas called “Saints to Sinners”…

Think it was because word got back to uptight moms that I’d taught the boys a couple card games… poker being the offending one..

Didn’t play basketball, or have video game nights…

That’s pretty awesome. I was a Scoutmaster for 10 years and served in 4 different wards. We took those kids on some pretty epic trips. For one high adventure we did a 3-day slot canyon rappelling trip with water canyons and wet suits. Took 6 months of planning which required leaders get certified. I believe we pushed some of those kids harder than they ever had been previously, but you could see the change in them by doing something they thought was almost impossible.

One of my favorite things was backpacking/overnight camping. Kids these day hardly have a clue how to do the basics of survival. Over time it became more and more difficult to push the kids because some of them physically couldn’t do it, but we mixed things up to allow the boys who could push themselves to go further, and then added in some car camping to get everybody out.

[Shawn Henry]

I’m struggling to find the verse in the BoM that prophesies that in the last days many shall say that there is no sin? Does anybody have a reference to that prophecy? I was pretty sure there was a verse outside of Levi’s discourse that talked about this.

I don't know about the Levi quote that speaks of those saying there is no sin in the last days, but...

“Moral relativism is the idea that there is no universal or absolute set of moral principles. It's a version of morality that advocates ‘to each her own,’ and those who follow it say, ‘Who am I to judge?’”

Here is his quote about relativism.

"The dogma of cultural relativism is challenged by the very people for whose moral benefit the anthropologists established it in the first place. The complaint the underdeveloped countries advance is not that they are being westernized, but that the westernization is proceeding too slowly."
Claude Levi-Strauss

The top 25 Levi quotes found here:
https://www.azquotes.com/author/8772-Cl ... vi_Strauss

[4Joshua8]

Below is a FB post from a cousin of mine. My response (which I’ll share later) led to some interesting discussion.

I’d be curious if you agree or disagree (or have a nuanced view) w/ the following:

I thought my job as a dad was to teach my kids the right way.
I had to learn the “right way” is to just love them.

They aren't mutually exclusive. Why do we do this so often---pit two things against each other that are actually complementary?

I love and adore my sons. That deep love often persuades me to teach them the right way. What's the alternative---to let the world raise your kids? Doesn't sound loving at all.

Young children are very teachable. They love instruction and kind, patient correction. They desperately need it. Even older children, young adults, and adult children sometimes need to be taught the right way with love.

I would ask, "If you're not teaching the right way, do you really love your children?" Seems completely obvious to me.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Below is a FB post from a cousin of mine. My response (which I’ll share later) led to some interesting discussion.

I’d be curious if you agree or disagree (or have a nuanced view) w/ the following:

I thought my job as a dad was to teach my kids the right way.
I had to learn the “right way” is to just love them.

They aren't mutually exclusive. Why do we do this so often---pit two things against each other that are actually complementary?

I love and adore my sons. That deep love often persuades me to teach them the right way. What's the alternative---to let the world raise your kids? Doesn't sound loving at all.

Young children are very teachable. They love instruction and kind, patient correction. They desperately need it. Even older children, young adults, and adult children sometimes need to be taught the right way with love.

I would ask, "If you're not teaching the right way, do you really love your children?" Seems completely obvious to me.

I was surprised at the vast amount of likes, thumbs up, and commentary affirming the statement from my cousin.

I teach my children because I love them. This kind of follows the same pattern noted in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

[Serragon]

Below is a FB post from a cousin of mine. My response (which I’ll share later) led to some interesting discussion.

I’d be curious if you agree or disagree (or have a nuanced view) w/ the following:

I thought my job as a dad was to teach my kids the right way.
I had to learn the “right way” is to just love them.

Children leading parents is a disaster. We end up with the culture we find ourselves in now where tantrums, mobs, and feelings reign.

But parents today seem to fear losing their kids love and approval much more than they fear God, so they pretend that acquiescing to their kids irrational wants/desires is actually Godly.

[Seed Starter]

Below is a FB post from a cousin of mine. My response (which I’ll share later) led to some interesting discussion.

I’d be curious if you agree or disagree (or have a nuanced view) w/ the following:

Disagree. My first thought is who is he writing this for and where did he hear that? Why would he choose one or the other when doing both is obvious? For me this sounds like something he heard in conference or in a church magazine. I think we should teach our kids the truth as we understand it and love them regardless of how well they listen to us. Teaching truth is important but teaching a child how they can know the truth of things for themselves is key. Teaching spiritual self-sufficiency is a way of showing love. If you don't teach a child right and wrong the child will remain in ignorance. If a parent lets their child remain ignorant how can they claim to love their child? Don't teach them about how to cross a street and then let them be hit by a car and then tell me how much you love them.

Perhaps your cousin gets angry when his kids don't do the right thing and he's saying he needs to show love even when he's disappointed. I know I can work on that. I think I can be more loving but teaching and loving aren't mutually exclusive to me.

The backstory here is quite important w/ regards to how he’s arrived at this position. I believe he’s having such a negative reaction to LDS culture and dogmas that he’s swinging from what he perceives as strict obedience to no obedience at all. Here was one response he gave me:

Here's some context to explain where I'm coming from. I had an idyllic childhood and thoroughly loved the home and community that raised me. Saying that, I noticed a pattern of language that fostered a decidedly us vs them view. Or at least it was baked into how I took it. In our sacred texts and hymns, I spied enormous amounts of battle metaphors. "Onward Christian Soldiers, marching as to war," for example. "We are all enlisted til the conflict is o'er," is another. Even Nephites vs Lamanites pitted entire groups against each other without allowing for shades and deviation. When I became a father, I felt duty bound to teach right and wrong, and drive that into my kids so they knew and followed it. To me, that one mandate overrode all others. To be a good father, I needed to hit that mark first and foremost. My knee-jerk habit was to instill this using fear, guilt, and shame. Not always aimed at them, though. Often at myself. It become part of my winning formula: "be a good boy." I took it to extremes, lumping mistakes with sin and condemning them all. Today I would point out that the "battle" and "conflict" is not against sinners, non-Christians, or any of the sort. In fact, it's neither a battle nor a conflict. All life is experience, so I'd encourage my children to reflect on those experiences and do more of what brings joy and less of what brings pain.

I think he makes some good points about how toxic church culture can be. I also don’t agree with him on a few things. He takes a black/white view of the Nephite/Lamanite cultures. There were plenty of “shades and deviations” where these groups both wained in their righteous and wickedness. Heck, one of the most righteous groups we know of were Lamanites. (Anti-Nephi-Lehis)

The church taught him to look down upon others who didn’t hold the same standard, as well as using fear, guilt, and shame (essentially compulsion) to get people to obey, when love really should be the greatest motivator.

He eventually commented/questioned the very dichotomy of right vs wrong. That’s how far he is swinging to the opposite side of the spectrum.

I can see how church culture would lead him to these conclusions. However, I think his ultimate conclusion is misguided. That last line, "do more of what brings joy and less of what brings pain" can be understood in a few different ways. I don't know if he's talking about short-term or long-term results. Standing up for what I believe often involves pain or discomfort. Should I stop doing that? All life is experience but that phrase gives me the sense that he walking away from making any judgments. I would tell him, "I think you've been immersed in a culture that has damaged you but right and wrong are still important. Overcome that culture that you know is sick and stand for truth, good sir! To me, this is just more evidence of sickness in the church culture that has caused someone to run away from the culture and even some of the good.

[Seed Starter]

Below is a FB post from a cousin of mine. My response (which I’ll share later) led to some interesting discussion.

I’d be curious if you agree or disagree (or have a nuanced view) w/ the following:

They aren't mutually exclusive. Why do we do this so often---pit two things against each other that are actually complementary?

I love and adore my sons. That deep love often persuades me to teach them the right way. What's the alternative---to let the world raise your kids? Doesn't sound loving at all.

Young children are very teachable. They love instruction and kind, patient correction. They desperately need it. Even older children, young adults, and adult children sometimes need to be taught the right way with love.

I would ask, "If you're not teaching the right way, do you really love your children?" Seems completely obvious to me.

I was surprised at the vast amount of likes, thumbs up, and commentary affirming the statement from my cousin.

I teach my children because I love them. This kind of follows the same pattern noted in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

That's interesting. In my comment I said I wonder who he is posting this for. Perhaps he needed a little ego boost because he feels guilty. I would guess he knew what sort of reaction he would get from his contacts. I don't know him so I can't say this for sure but this sounds like my new favorite phrase, "humble brag." I don't doubt that he's wrestling with things but I do wonder about the motivation behind sharing it with a few hundred people.

[Thinker]

…moral relativism.

While I do believe each individual have a high degree of flexibility in choosing what we do in this life, there are certain aspects to our very creation that align us with God. We are not left alone to our own devices to simply make up our own rules of right vs wrong. I do believe we each have the light of Christ, and that each of us will work out what that means between us and God. But deep down inside I can’t believe that “anything goes” and that misery doesn’t follow certain actions.

I agree.

People pretending to be ok with “anything goes” are doing so from the safety of a legal system that prevents people from hurting and killing them and their loved ones. They - including atheists -ignore the fact that Moses is honored in the US capital as being a “significant lawmaker.”

Don’t kill.
Don’t steal… etc are important basics to be able to function in a society. Take those basic morals away & you have killing & stealing without consequence etc.

That said, I also acknowledge how God sees our hearts and judges much more righteously because God understands more completely than we do. Even when I know undeniable facts that indicate someone is guilty of a,b & c, there are sooooo many other factors that I may likely be ignoring or unaware of. So, it’s good for us to not be too punitive with ourselves or others - since we are works in progress and there is much more than just the obvious tip of the iceberg.

[Seed Starter]

I know what you mean…. I was scoutmaster for five years, when my son was coming up thru the ranks.

Not one to do things halfway, first Weds night I had all the scouts bring any old bike from home or elsewhere. I’d bought an armful of skis from Deseret Industries for $20. We proceeded over next two weeks of activities to convert them into ski bikes.

Then took ‘em snow camping and go riding…
Best fun for two seasons…..

Made our own snow shoes for other two seasons..

Decided the boys needed to be challenged, started hiking with them. Camping plenty. Had them pull together a Ragnar team and we ran a Ragnar relay race, 194 miles in 48 hours… round the clock.

Took ‘em on a 50 miler canoe trip, had them up to the range every couple months trap shooting.

Archery in a serious way too.

Stuff the Dads would make time to go with us…

Made them do hard things…

They became confident and lived the law of the pack…

Didn’t worry about merit badges outside of summer camps, still 2/3rd’s made


Got released planning Mt. Whitney climb and a 500 mile bicycle relay race from Salt Lake to Las Vegas called “Saints to Sinners”…

Think it was because word got back to uptight moms that I’d taught the boys a couple card games… poker being the offending one..

Didn’t play basketball, or have video game nights…

Nice! I had some good scout leaders back in the day. About what year were you doing all of this? This is how it should be IMO.

2010-2015…

This was the last trip I went on with the scouts. Bonneville Salt Flats a few years back. I think I set an unofficial record for non-intoxicated people at least I don't see those scouts very often since they've moved away but it is the topic of conversation when I do. Motorsports events for scouts were frowned upon due to liability I think. Let's just say someone who outranked me drove the tow vehicle


In case you were wondering it works like waterskiing without a wake. I thought I would die but what a way to end it.

[JK4Woods]

8EE635CC-C524-44DF-87B3-6FC2969EED31.jpeg (498.8 KiB) Viewed 147 times

Home made ski bikes…

[logonbump]

Someone tried to tell me that it was the loving thing to do to give alcohol to an alcoholic bum. Nope. That’s not real love.

As a missionary, at a man's door, we were denied an offer of a message of Jesus Christ and before we left asked if there was anything he needed, anything we could do, and the man replied, asking if we had a cigarette.
My companion laughed and said no, turned and we left. Not far from the man's house I saw an unburned, clean, recently dropped cigarette, which, despite all objections, I retrieved and delivered to the poor suffering smoker, much to my companion's chagrin.