Alma 22:32 No location in Central America is nearly surrounded by water.

[larsenb]

Just one comment on your title of this thread. There certainly is a MesoAmerica area that could be thought of as being nearly surrounding by water. The most obvious place is the region SE of the Isthmus of Tehuanatepc in the area of northern Guatemala and the adjacent Mexican State of Chiapas and the country of Belize.

Why? To the east of the center of this area you have the Caribbean Ocean (or the Atlantic), to the north you have the Gulf of Mexico, to the due west, you have the Pacific; and a south ocean could possibly be inferred by the curve of the Guatemalan coastline to the east; as it goes further south it is running almost due east where it borders El Salvador.. Go look at a map.

[larsenb]

In actuality, Joseph Smith never stated that the hill in New York that Moroni had placed a small portion of records, was the actual Hill Cumorah of the Nephites aka Hill Ramah of the Jaredites. And he never actually corrected Oliver Cowdery's assumption of it either. The "hill" in New York is definitely the one that Moroni trekked to, to leave a few & the U&T, breastplate, and such.

OK, here is one item from Verneil Simmons that led to the discovery of Hill Rabon. I sent this letter to a friend who eventually got to go on one of the trips to Rabon with Neil Steede. I sent my friend this in 2006 or 2007.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Randall,

When I was down in McAllen, Texas back in December 1987 visiting the Simmons (Neil & Dana), and Frank Frye, (actually was sent there by bus from a Patriarch in Austin) even though it was not told directly to me, it seemed to be hinted that this family was the one that "pinned" Hill Rabon as being Hill Cumorah (Nephites name)/Hill Ramah (Jaredites name). Verneil seems to confirm it. But I also note she speaks of Dana's experience one night at or on Rabon. It may be that this is the story (of Dana's experience & the family's experiences & of their research) which inspired Neil Steede's day & night experiences at Hill Rabon in April of 1972.

Below excerpted online from March 26, 2006
"3 Witnesses in the Restoration" (12pp. documentary of Verneil's, Mildred's, and Louise' testimonies)

===================================
My Testimony:
Verneil Simmons

Along with my two good friends, Mildred Smith and Louise Gregson, I make my record of the many years I have lived as a member of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

<snipped>

As a teenager, my deepest desire was to be an archaeologist— a desire that the Great Depression of the thirties made only a dream. College for me was out of the question. My family moved to Cameron, Missouri in 1936. There I met and married a young Church member, Wayne Simmons, who held the office of priest. Wayne’s family also had a church heritage going back five generations, to the building of the Kirtland Temple. He was born at old Far West and his father was the pastor of the small church, which still stands there today. We shared a mutual interest in the Book of Mormon as he was teaching that subject to the adult class in the Cameron Branch. The years following our marriage saw the birth of two of our sons, five war years spent in the Caribbean island of Aruba, a year in Costa Rica and nearly two years in Caracas, Venezuela.

My husband, Wayne, worked for Standard Oil, the Inter-American School Service and then became the director of the Cultural Center for the U.S. State Department in Venezuela.

These varied assignments gave us an opportunity to study Spanish and to delve into the culture and pre-history of much of Latin America. During these years I continued to spend hours studying various aspects of the Book of Mormon.

We had chosen to live in Latin America with our sons because of our conviction that the Church must eventually open missions to the Lamanites there. We thought that hope was fulfilled in 1950 when the General Conference named Wayne as the first Spanish speaking missionary to Latin America. Actually, it meant waiting years on the border in south Texas, with only vacation trips into Mexico for my archaeological research.

My years of study had convinced me that the lands described in the Book of Mormon could only be found in the area of southern Mexico, to El Salvador, an area called “Mesoamerica” by archaeologists. Therefore, Mormon’s Hill Cumorah had to be somewhere in southern Mexico. The search for that hill became a family quest. Studies of the ancient trade routes, as recorded by the Spaniards, led to exploration of an area new to us. Through a most unusual experience we found Cerro Rabon which fit all the requirements I had listed from the book itself. It was a great satisfaction to the family. In 1965 we were finally sent to Mexico City by the Church. Our older sons had married and only Dana, born in 1950, accompanied us. He got the archaeology degree I had wanted at the University of the Americas in Mexico. In 1965 the Church purchased a beautiful residence on Embassy Row, which had the promise of fulfilling all the needs of a center for missionary work in Latin America.

A congregation was developed with the help of a number of couples who came to Mexico for work or study. We provided a home there for many RLDS students who came to Mexico for language studies in Spanish, and for six years we were the Church guides to the museum and the archaeological ruins for the many saints who visited. Dana enjoyed sharing the story of his night on Cerro Rabón.

During the six years we spent in Mexico we came to understand that the leadership of the RLDS Church had no deep convictions about developing work in Latin America. We often discovered we were in opposition to the leadership of the Church when we urged more resources be given to the divinely appointed tasks of the Church. Instead of supporting the work to the Lamanites they were interested in secularizing the Church beliefs and programs. This was proven when in the mid 1970’s they sold the Church property in Mexico City, and wiped out the work there. We had been returned to the USA in 1970, first to serve in Minneapolis and later back to the border in Texas. I continued teaching Book of Mormon classes in districts, reunions, branches and study workshops.

Frequently, I was urged to put all the information into a book, which at that time I had never considered. I did believe that the promise of the coming forth of the original records still hidden in Cumorah South was of vital importance to the Church. Because of that conviction I yielded to my students and accordingly, Peoples Places and Prophecies was written, printed at the Herald House, and went on sale at the 1978 Conference when we were retired from Church appointment.

I consider the printing of this book no small miracle. The 1980 Conference brought an order from the Presidency to remove from the Church’s bookstores forced Louise Gregson, Thelona Stevens, Roy Weldon and myself to find other outlets for our Book of Mormon materials. Because of our conviction that we must continue to witness the truths of the Book of Mormon to the Church and the world we found ways to do it. I gave my book to Brother Raymond Treat, and the Zarahemla Research Foundation published three thousand hard bound copies of the book. It is now out of print.

But in this same period, the RLDS leadership used its publications to raise doubts about the validity of the Book of Mormon as a historical document.

<snipped>

===================================

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I might add that in this one, Verneil left out further details. But she did take note that Dana must have had some sort of experience at Hill Rabon. I forget if Dana or Neil shared a brief about this "experience", but I think it had to do with an encounter with one of the 3 Nephites. And Dana, being a college classmate of Neil Steede, he shared the information with him, not realizing the impact of that. Neil went down to have an experience too. But then he brought out Hill Rabon into the spotlight, something the Simmons were hoping to slowly leak out. So I sensed a bit of tension here or hurt feelings. If you will notice that Verneil uses a term- Hill Cumorah South. They decided since so many were used to calling the hill in New York- Cumorah, that they had to distinguish between the two, thus Hill Cumorah North (in NY) & Cumorah South (Hill Rabon/Ramah of the BoM). If you Google the portion noted upfront, it may still be online. Also remember that any time RLDS/CoC list BoM references, the chapters & verses are not the same with LDS.

Let's see if I can find the other snip. OK, got it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Further Testimony of Verneil Simmons from 2011 (I think):
<http://www.thekeystone.org/news.html>

News
Book of Mormon Symposium

Verneil Simmons shared her testimony Saturday evening, May 29 (2011 I think), describing her life-long quest for the location of the ancient Hill Cumorah where Mormon placed the sacred records. About 125 people attended the event, a beginning in our promotion of fellowship among Book of Mormon believers in the church.

The official map published by the church in 1894 placed the hill in Western New York, the place where Joseph obtained the plates. That map was the winner of a church wide contest and was not based on any archeaological evidence. Even simple comparisons with the descriptions of the hill portrayed in the Book of Mormon and the hill in New York show inconsistencies.

Verneil’s quest began in 1932 with the visit of a stranger, whom her parents believed was one of the three Nephites. It required an intense study of the geography as recorded in the Book of Mormon and years of research in Mexico. Her entire family became involved.

One significant clue was discovered by her son Gareth in the mid-sixties. He found a 1933 report from a young student detailing the legends [in their Ethnography] at Jalapa de Diaz, a village at the base of Hill Rabon in Southern Mexico. One of them described three men who yearly came to the mountain and announced that they are guardians of the records of an ancient culture.

A comparison of Hill Rabon with the requirements that the Book of Mormon’s geography placed on it, as well as a trip by part of her family to the mountain’s base, confirmed it as the long-sought location.

Verneil’s testimony ended with account of another mysterious stranger who approved her husband’s intentions to share a photo of the hill with the saints for the first time. This happened in 1972. Verneil’s husband, Wayne, tried to meet the stranger after the meeting, but he had disappeared. No one present had seen him come or go. Neither did any know who he was. Wayne believed that he was one of the three Nephites, putting the confirming seal and approval on Verneil’s life-long quest.

Verneil said that the night’s testimony was the first time that this valiant latter-day saint has shared all the high points in the history of her remarkable discovery.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I might add that in this Ethnography of the 3 men who appeared in the village next to Hill Rabon did so in the first week of April, which may be linked to the church due to becoming a church on April 6th, 1830. And they state they are going to check on the "National Treasury". That term seems to correspond with Hurtak's "Keys of Enoch", of which was noted that the "Treasures of Heaven" are stored there at/in Cerro Rabon.


My trip to McAllen, Texas was back in December 1987. From what I understand, Frank is now living on Rabon or in that area, in the state of Oaxaca, Mexico. Here is a clip I found online.

++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++
http://www.cerro-rabon.org/2001/

http://warrenb234.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html
Frank Frye's class on Book of Mormon geography:

Frank said that a new set of 3 DVD’s will soon be available on Book of Mormon: Quetzalcoatl - Evidence that Jesus Christ ministered in America.

Eight Pillars of Evidence that supports the divinity of the Book of Mormon.

The Geography of the Book of Mormon

They will be available soon and can be purchased through the Mexican Ministry Support Group or through the Conference Office (CRE).


Notes from Frank’s class:
Where is Hill Cumorah?
Joseph Smith never said or wrote that that the hill in New York State was called Hill Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery made a false leap in a letter to think that the plates hidden by Mormon was the same hill in that the plates were found on in New York. (see Mormon RLDS/CoC 3:8) [LDS Mormon 6:6]

Mormon gave his son Moroni a “few plates” which were an abridgement of the plates of Nephi. This “abridgement” by Mormon is what what was hidden on the hill in New York.

The hill in New York is only 140 feet high. There are 10,000 other similar hills in New York. There is nothing outstanding about the hill where the plates were found. It is not a hill that Mormon would have chosen for the final battle as it is easily surrounded.

There are 10 requirements needed to identify Hill Cumorah:
It must be a prominent feature.
It had an excellent view to the south.
It was of strategic (military) value. (Mormon RLDS 3:5) [LDS Mormon 6:4]
It protected an area where many people could live for some time with ample water. (Mormon described it as a land of many waters).
It must be located in the “land of desolation.”
It must be near the “narrow neck of land.”
It must be on an important trade route. (Frank mentioned that Verneil Simmons found in her studies that there was a well established trade in salt which follows the river that passes by Hill Rabon (Cumorah) in Mexico).
It must have both an older and a younger culture in the area. (ie. Nephite and Olmec cultures.)
It must have caves in the same area. (The hill in New York area is not known for caves)
It must be on the eastern coast.
Does Cerro Rabon in Mexico fit these requirements? Yes.
Cerro Rabon is over 5000 feet high with a river running nearby and from its hillside you can see for miles to the south. It is of strategic military value. It has many caves. There is evidence of two major cultures having lived in this area, etc.
++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++

There has been an elaborate amount of underground caves that are being explored by current explorers. It is even possible they may link from Hill Shem (Shim) to Cumorah (Rabon). Somewhere I have the research map by ZRF or FRAA which shows the location of Hill Shim, but I would have to search for it. But as I noted earlier, the cliff wall side (high side) basically faces south. As to Hill Vigia, I would have to look back in Palmer's book to see if it mentions heighth.

I guess we'll pause here for now.

Lynn, Joseph Smith and every early church leader all called the Hill Cumorah, THE HILL CUMORAH! Were in the sam hill do these things just keep coming from. Here is a post I did on this subject last month, you may not have seen it.


“The hill Cumorah, with the surrounding vicinity, is distinguished as the great battlefield on which, and near which, two powerful nations were concentrated with all their forces. Men, women and children fought till hundreds of thousands on both sides were hewn down, and left to molder upon the ground… These new plates were given to Moroni to finish the history. And all the ancient plates, Mormon deposited in Cumorah, about three hundred and eighty-four years after Christ. When Moroni, about thirty-six years after, made the deposit of the book entrusted to him, he was, without doubt, inspired to select a department of the hill separate from the great depository of the numerous volumes hid up by his father. The particular place in the hill where Moroni secreted the book, was revealed, by the angel, to the prophet Joseph Smith, to whom the volume was delivered in September, A.D. 1827. But the grand repository of all the numerous records of the ancient nations of the western continent, was located in another department of the hill, and it’s contents under the charge of holy angels, until the day should come for them to be transferred to the sacred temple of Zion.” 1866 Orson Pratt Millennial Star (28 (27): 417)

About 10 years ago a friend of mine who worked in the Church Video department was on assignment at the Hill Cumorah for a project the Church was working on.

The west side of Hill Cumorah was being prepared for setting up the stage for the Hill Cumorah Pageant. A missionary couple had some guests on a tour showing them around this west facing hill Cumorah. After a time one of the families on tour noticed one of their children was missing from the group. A search for this young man began. After searching for a time the missionary couple and their guest family heard a yell for help several times. They came upon the missing young man who had fallen through an opening in the top west side of the Hill Cumorah.

The hole seemed to be 12-15 feet deep. Someone ran to their car and brought back some jumper cables to assist in bringing the young man up out of the hole.

After the rescue, my video friend was there with the others as they all looked at the hole which was very dark and hard to see anything. (See Photo left)

My friend put his camera with its light down the hole and snapped a few pictures. He was very surprised to see the appearance of a cave that was about 15 feet square. (Explained below). On the sides of the walls were stacked stones and there were some stones attached seemingly as shelves coming out from the stacked stones, which would mean the cave would have been man made. The cave was empty
What most people know about the hill Cumorah is that it is classified as a drumlin. “A drumlin, from the Irish word droimnín (“littlest ridge”), first recorded in 1833, and in the classical sense is an elongated hill in the shape of an inverted spoon or half-buried egg formed by glacial ice acting on underlying unconsolidated till or ground moraine.” Source: Wikipedia. Drumlins are created by a glacial drift with moving dirt and debris and won’t leave spaces for caves as other hills and mountains would.


Enlarge (This steel plate was covered by dirt)
After discovering this cave, the Church had a contractor notified about fixing the hole. They came out to the location and put a large thick piece of steel over the hole, (see photo left) and then covered it with dirt. I have some friends who have since been back with detectors and can easily locate the location of where the piece of steel was buried.

As you read in Mormon 4:23, “And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord.” This would mean the plates from Shim were hid up in a place close to Hill Cumorah.

In one of Jonathan Nevilles blogs he speaks about how the Cave of all the Plates including the Sword of Laban and Liahona were taken from the Cave at Cumorah and probably taken back to the Hill Shim to hide them from people today. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/a-hole-in-cumorah/



David Whitmer, Deseret Evening News, 16 August 1878
In an interview with P. Wilhelm Poulson, David Whitmer gave another account of the cave:
[Poulson]: Where are the plates now?
[Whitmer]: In a cave, where the angel has hidden them up till the time arrives when the plates, which are sealed, shall be translated. God will yet raise up a mighty one, who shall do his work till it is finished and Jesus comes again.
[Poulson]: Where is that cave?
[Whitmer]: In the State of New York.
[Poulson]: In the Hill of Comorah?
[Whitmer]: No, but not far away from that place.
From JOURNAL OF BOOK OF MORMON STUDIES 7-31-2004 Cumorah’s Cave by Cameron J. Packer Volume 13 Number 1 Article 6 Page 55

In his book Reminiscences of Joseph, the Prophet, and the Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon,
Edward Stevenson relates an interview with David Whitmer in 1877:
It was likewise stated to me by David Whitmer in the year 1877 that Oliver Cowdery told him that the Prophet Joseph and himself had seen this room and that it was filled with treasure, and on a table therein were the breastplate and the sword of Laban, as well as the portion of gold plates not yet translated, and that these plates were bound by three small gold rings, and would also be translated, as was the first portion in the days of Joseph. When they are translated much useful information will be brought to light. But till that day arrives, no Rochester adventurers shall ever see them or the treasures..."

In other places on thishttps://josephsmithfoundation.org/hill-cumorah-cave/ forhttps://josephsmithfoundation.org/hill-cumorah-cave/um, I have posted more on this, including the stone box containing the Book of Mormon Plates, what happened to it, and that an area minister later said when passing by the pathway beside the Hill C. not many years later, you could see the spot where the plates had been recovered. There are also materials within a mile or two of Cumorah that could have been used to make the stone box by Moroni all those centuries ago. All very interesting to the saints in our day.

Here is a link to many more early comments by church leaders on this subject. https://josephsmithfoundation.org/hill-cumorah-cave//
From what I have heard, Joseph didn't call the hill where he found the plates the Hill Cumorah. I haven't spent the time to verify that but I thought I would put it out there.
harakim, “The name Cumorah came into “common circulation [amongst Latter-day Saints] no earlier than the mid-1830s. The first documented person to identify the drumlin hill in Manchester, New York where Joseph Smith received the plates with the hill Cumorah appears to have been William W. Phelps in 1833.” William W. Phelps, “The Book of Mormon,” The Evening and the Morning Star 1, no. 8 (January 1833): 57.

Phelps’s identification was later followed by Oliver Cowdery in 1835.5 Probably due to the popularity and influence of these two early leaders’ writings, the identification of the hill in New York as the same hill Cumorah mentioned by Mormon in Book of Mormon became commonplace amongst early Latter-day Saints.6

As far as can be determined, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself only associated the hill in New York with the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon towards the end of his life. In an 1842 epistle the Prophet spoke of hearing “Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed” (Doctrine and Covenants 128:20).7 Before then, Joseph left the name of the New York hill where Moroni gave him the plates unnamed in his accounts of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.8 Whether the Prophet arrived at this conclusion about the location of Cumorah by revelation, by conforming to usage that had become common among the early members of the Church about Book of Mormon geography, or in some other way is historically unknown.9

In the decades after Joseph Smith’s death, other prominent early Latter-day Saints, including Lucy Mack Smith,10 Parley P. Pratt,11 and David Whitmer,12 recounted earlier incidents in which the New York hill was identified as Cumorah by the angel Moroni and by Joseph Smith. Since these statements are somewhat late recollections, coming after the identity of Cumorah as a hill near Palmyra, New York, had become widespread, they should be used cautiously.13 https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... 10_aoi58wq

I have mountains more of this stuff if anyone really needs to see it.

My posting this isn’t meant to speak for Lynn. But my take is:

“Joseph Smith . . . called the Hill Cumorah” For this statement to be true, you need to document Smith calling the Hill Cumorah in his own early writings, or at least two recorded quotes where he did so. It is also possible that he developed the common usage later

“The hill Cumorah, with the surrounding vicinity . . .” This statement from Orson Pratt simply shows he accepted the commonly held belief about Cumorah, That is all

“About 10 years ago a friend of mine . . . “ An interesting, provocative and even amazing story, but very anecdotal. Tough to believe that finding such a cave in a hill where the Book of Mormon was found, and from the description, not far from the actual depository of the plates, would not have elicited the utmost interest from Church officials or those responsible for the project they were working on. So, they just covered it up with a steel plate and dirt?? Unfortunately, such a non-reaction is tough to believe.

So, the story begs the following questions, at least in my mind:

1. Who is your friend? 2. Where are her pictures? 3. Why didn’t your videographer friend and the other witnesses get down in the hole with a light and video tape it? 4. How did the kid who fell down a 12-15 foot hole escape injury? 5. If ignorant Church officials who were there, ignored the significance of such a find and didn’t report it up the chain, why didn’t your friend report it. 6. Why hasn’t your friend written this story up, somewhere? 7. Can she supply any witnesses, whatsoever to back up her story, and if not, why not? 8. Can you supply a link to the photograph you claim was taken of the location of the steel plate covering the hole, or of the steel plate.

Regarding: “This would mean the plates from Shim were hid up in a place close to Hill Cumorah.” No. Mormon says in Mormon 6:6, that he hid all the records entrusted to him in the hill Cumorah. Quote: “I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.” And notice, he gave the abridgement to Moroni. Is there a passage that says Moroni returned “these few plates” back to the Cumorah repository after he had added to them? Not that I can find.

[Lynn]

"larsenb" noted:
++++++++++++++++
A real flood of information indicating a LOT of work you've put into these topics. I really appreciate it and will respond somewhat later. And you've come to many of the same conclusions I have.
++++++++++++++++


Yep, just a tad bit, since 1985. It is not that I actually always looked for it, but it somehow comes to me. For instance, the guy who had the experience at Hill Rabon in the early 1970s, came knocking on my door from the late 70s thru December 1987. Then in 1995, on either Memorial Day or Labor Day, I heard straighthand from the very one who had the encounter & was almost killed just before. I was listening to a cassette that he told it to in 1972 in Independence, Missouri. He did not identify the Hill's actual name, but explained the use or terms of Hill Cumorah North (for the one in NY) & Hill Cumorah South (in Mexico).

One RLDS earlier researcher- Roy Weldon, was born in the church. As he got older, he wondered what if my parents were wrong. It was his responsibility to make sure. So0 he investigated, eventually winding up in Mesoamerica as to being the true setting of the Book of Mormon. In his findings which he shared in books & booklets, he came across a "find". A very good one. When he walked into a museum in Merida, Yucatan, there in a bust, was a Mayan priest, wearing a headdress, breastplate, and guess what else? The Urim & Thummim. It caught Roy's eyes. He knew exactly what it was. When I saw it, I too knew it as well. There is even an Atlantean description of the "magical glasses" & how they operate. This bust was discovered in Merida while excavating before new construction of something. This was way back in 1957, so he took Black & White pictures. He shared them in at least two booklets. I'll look thru the pile & note the titles of which ones. There should be some used copies on ABEbooks.com or alibris.com available. What did Roy conclude? He was in the right church & the setting of the Book of Mormon is basically in Mesoamerica.

In fact, I think I will share SEALED (my incomplete research book- 8 of 24 chapters), but I will do it in a different thread so I won't get kirtland ruffled. The reason is that it connects the records of Joseph Smith, Edgar Cayce, and Atlantis (with those of Lemuria as well), as well as a 4th in Tibet/China. So, you may find out something extraordinary. Chapters 2 & 3 relate to the adventures of Hill Rabon.

I'll have to check out the other ones you noted, but from what I've be been led to, Hill Rabon (the Hill of the Masters) is pinning the tail on the donkey (X marks the spot).

[Lynn]

Hmm, kirtland,

Sorry to ruffle your feathers. I really appreciate all your contributions & research.

However, Joseph directly stated- " ... by reading the history of the Nephites in the Book of Mormon. They lived about the narrow neck of land, which now embraces Central America, with all the cities that can be found ...".

Roy Weldon brings out that "the land shadowing with wings" from Isaiah 18:1 is referencing the area of Mesoamerica and places a bird with wings to show the likeness of that.

Palmer (LDS) in his book on the bottom of page 23 states this ...
+++++++++++++++++++
"We will make no attempt to resolve statements of Book of Mormon geography by other Church (LDS) authorities, but will only try to reconcile the text of the Book of Mormon itself with physical geography and archaeological findings. The statements of Church leaders do not necessarily represent church doctrine. There is no doctrine of infallibility in the Church. If two Church leaders make conflicting statements concerning nondoctrinal matters, it is not a negative reflection on the Church. It is simply a reflection of the open spirit of inquiry and search for knowledge which was preached by Joseph Smith."
+++++++++++++++++++

Also, as noted earlier that certain markers needed to qualify for Hill or Cerro Vigia to be Ramah/Cumorah are met. Just like they are for Hill Rabon. On p.100, Palmer notes Hill Vigia as being 800 meters high. That is 2624.64 feet high. 1 mile being 5280 feet, A half mile is 2640 feet. So we will call it a Half mile high. Good lookout here, as well as Rabon. Rabon though comes in at 7700 feet high according to one source, just shy of a mile & a half high. Much better lookout with Rabon.


I might add that the records being tucked aside in Mexico, in a unique twist, kind of protects them from any USA bureaucratic retrieval and if it was a small hill like in New York. And some have mentioned problems in Mexico. Yes, on one of the annual trips around 2005-2007 of Neil Steede & others, Randall told me one portion of the group was robbed. But they continued on. Another portion had to pay ransom to remove a fallen log or tree off the road.

I need to get going on my end so I'll pause here.

[Jashon]

I've been looking for descriptors of cold or snow in the Book of Mormon. There's hardly anything, and nothing directly relevant to the Nephite climate, that I could see.

Has anyone found something on that?

[larsenb]

I've been looking for descriptors of cold or snow in the Book of Mormon. There's hardly anything, and nothing directly relevant to the Nephite climate, that I could see.

Has anyone found something on that?

You'd think that the Nephites living at or near the site of present-day of Buffalo NY, would have something to say about the extreme snowfall and cold in that neck of the woods.

[kirtland r.m.]

I've been looking for descriptors of cold or snow in the Book of Mormon. There's hardly anything, and nothing directly relevant to the Nephite climate, that I could see.

Has anyone found something on that?

You'd think that the Nephites living at or near the site of present-day of Buffalo NY, would have something to say about the extreme snowfall and cold in that neck of the woods.

Funny you should bring this up. (1 Nephi 8:11). The phrase, “whiteness of the driven snow” is Nephi’s description, recorded forty years after arriving in the Promised Land, suggesting that he lived somewhere in North America where blizzards “drive” the snow, providing an analogy that had a special and understandable meaning for those who witnessed snow driven by strong winds.” (See p. 300, Annotated Book of Mormon “Four Seasons in the Promised Land.”) In addition, Actually, snow and hail are mentioned three times in the text in conjunction with dreams and exhortations (1 Nephi 11:8, Mosiah 12:6 and Helaman 5:12).

When Mormon edited the plates for the coming Book of Mormon, climate in the holy land was not really mentioned, it seemed he had other things to pass on. By the way, there are descriptions of animals and other things making the following very important. If there were volcanoes, jungles, jade, jaguars, tapirs, massive stone pyramids, and, especially, millions of Mayans, these “most certainly” would not be mentioned.

[Jashon]

Well, hail doesn't clearly indicate a cold climate. All there is, then, is "driven snow", and Nephi might have used snow based on usage he was familiar with from the brass/bronze plates, or he might not have even used the term snow. The short phrase "driven snow" in the Book of Mormon might be a case of non-literal translation from whatever Nephi might have written.

[hideki]

Well, hail doesn't clearly indicate a cold climate. All there is, then, is "driven snow", and Nephi might have used snow based on usage he was familiar with from the brass/bronze plates, or he might not have even used the term snow. The short phrase "driven snow" in the Book of Mormon might be a case of non-literal translation from whatever Nephi might have written.

"White as snow" is a figurative and poetic wording that is also used in the Old Testament.
“Driven snow” in 1 Nephi 11:8 seems to refer to blizzard-like conditions—perhaps reflecting the intensity of the whiteness that Nephi wanted to convey in his account.

[larsenb]

I've been looking for descriptors of cold or snow in the Book of Mormon. There's hardly anything, and nothing directly relevant to the Nephite climate, that I could see.

Has anyone found something on that?

You'd think that the Nephites living at or near the site of present-day of Buffalo NY, would have something to say about the extreme snowfall and cold in that neck of the woods.

Funny you should bring this up. (1 Nephi 8:11). The phrase, “whiteness of the driven snow” is Nephi’s description, recorded forty years after arriving in the Promised Land, suggesting that he lived somewhere in North America where blizzards “drive” the snow, providing an analogy that had a special and understandable meaning for those who witnessed snow driven by strong winds.” (See p. 300, Annotated Book of Mormon “Four Seasons in the Promised Land.”) In addition, Actually, snow and hail are mentioned three times in the text in conjunction with dreams and exhortations (1 Nephi 11:8, Mosiah 12:6 and Helaman 5:12).

When Mormon edited the plates for the coming Book of Mormon, climate in the holy land was not really mentioned, it seemed he had other things to pass on. By the way, there are descriptions of animals and other things making the following very important. If there were volcanoes, jungles, jade, jaguars, tapirs, massive stone pyramids, and, especially, millions of Mayans, these “most certainly” would not be mentioned.

An excellent example of the 'grasping at straws' methodology used by Heartlanders when it comes to justifying their model from scripture.

Snow does fall in Jerusalem and environs from time-to-time. Snow is see on the higher elevations of Israel even more times, as it would be on the higher peaks of countries/locales to the south of us. Phrases incorporating snow is found 21 different times in the OT, and 4 times in the NT; with the phrase "white as snow" found in each of the NT passages and 6 times in the OT passages.

Regarding your other comments about things not mentioned in the BoM, no they didn't have the word jaguar but 'ravenous beasts' are mentioned. Could a jaguar be considered a ravenous beast? (Alma 2:37) And do you know what a "curelom" or a "cumon" is? I don't, but one of them could be a tapir. (Ether 9:19). Regarding the word 'jungle', could their word wilderness encompass a jungle? Why not? Wilderness is used repeatedly throughout the BofM. Elephants? Victor Von Hagen, in his book Ancient Sun Kingdoms of the Americas, sites evidence of finding elephant bones in the region of the Valley of Mexico.

And the massive stone pyramids. Once again, with feeling, these are common to the Mayan Classic to post classic era, not to the pre-classic. Regarding millions of Mayans, once again, the Book of Mormon time period was before the 'flower of the Mayan civilization. That there was some descent or cross-over of the Maya with the Book of Mormon people is indicated by several passages in their 'hidden' codices claiming they came from 7 tribes (as in the BofM), and came from across the sea from an original Land of Bountiful; these passages also contain strong hints/descriptions of their trek to the south of their land of origins before they reached their first Bountiful.

Tough to believe that Nephites living in NY state, especially the area of Buffalo, would not mention something about the common 2-4 foot show falls they would have to endure.

[kirtland r.m.]

You'd think that the Nephites living at or near the site of present-day of Buffalo NY, would have something to say about the extreme snowfall and cold in that neck of the woods.

Funny you should bring this up. (1 Nephi 8:11). The phrase, “whiteness of the driven snow” is Nephi’s description, recorded forty years after arriving in the Promised Land, suggesting that he lived somewhere in North America where blizzards “drive” the snow, providing an analogy that had a special and understandable meaning for those who witnessed snow driven by strong winds.” (See p. 300, Annotated Book of Mormon “Four Seasons in the Promised Land.”) In addition, Actually, snow and hail are mentioned three times in the text in conjunction with dreams and exhortations (1 Nephi 11:8, Mosiah 12:6 and Helaman 5:12).

When Mormon edited the plates for the coming Book of Mormon, climate in the holy land was not really mentioned, it seemed he had other things to pass on. By the way, there are descriptions of animals and other things making the following very important. If there were volcanoes, jungles, jade, jaguars, tapirs, massive stone pyramids, and, especially, millions of Mayans, these “most certainly” would not be mentioned.

An excellent example of the 'grasping at straws' methodology used by Heartlanders when it comes to justifying their model from scripture.

Snow does fall in Jerusalem and environs from time-to-time. Snow is see on the higher elevations of Israel even more times, as it would be on the higher peaks of countries/locales to the south of us. Phrases incorporating snow is found 21 different times in the OT, and 4 times in the NT; with the phrase "white as snow" found in each of the NT passages and 6 times in the OT passages.

Regarding your other comments about things not mentioned in the BoM, no they didn't have the word jaguar but 'ravenous beasts' are mentioned. Could a jaguar be considered a ravenous beast? (Alma 2:37) And do you know what a "curelom" or a "cumon" is? I don't, but one of them could be a tapir. (Ether 9:19). Regarding the word 'jungle', could their word wilderness encompass a jungle? Why not? Wilderness is used repeatedly throughout the BofM. Elephants? Victor Von Hagen, in his book Ancient Sun Kingdoms of the Americas, sites evidence of finding elephant bones in the region of the Valley of Mexico.

And the massive stone pyramids. Once again, with feeling, these are common to the Mayan Classic to post classic era, not to the pre-classic. Regarding millions of Mayans, once again, the Book of Mormon time period was before the 'flower of the Mayan civilization. That there was some descent or cross-over of the Maya with the Book of Mormon people is indicated by several passages in their 'hidden' codices claiming they came from 7 tribes (as in the BofM), and came from across the sea from an original Land of Bountiful; these passages also contain strong hints/descriptions of their trek to the south of their land of origins before they reached their first Bountiful.

Tough to believe that Nephites living in NY state, especially the area of Buffalo, would not mention something about the common 2-4 foot show falls they would have to endure.

Oh you want more, I knew you would. In Helaman 11:17, it says, “that it [rain] did bring forth her fruit in the season of her fruit”. In North America what is the season of her fruit?
Typically in Ohio the harvest season is July, August, and September. In South America what is the season of her fruit? All the time!

Alma 46:40 it says, “And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate—”

At what seasons of the year would fevers be more likely? In South America there are basically two seasons. Hot and hotter. Or, warm and warmer. Rainy or not rainy? Dry or wet? In North America there are 4 seasons of the year and and at what time of the year are fevers and the flu more frequent?


Peak Month of Flu Activity 1982-1983 through 2017-2018
The Flu Season
“While seasonal influenza (flu) viruses are detected year-round in the United States, flu viruses are most common during the fall and winter. The exact timing and duration of flu seasons can vary, but influenza activity often begins to increase in October. Most of the time flu activity peaks between December and February, although activity can last as late as May.” Center for Disease Control

“Remember that the southern hemisphere seasons are reversed – with summer roughly November to February, and winter in June to August. Peru is pretty much a year round destination thanks to its proximity to the equator. However, visit between January and March and you’ll be slap bang in the middle of the rainy season.” https://bookofmormonevidence.org/snow-c ... of-mormon/

[larsenb]

Funny you should bring this up. (1 Nephi 8:11). The phrase, “whiteness of the driven snow” is Nephi’s description, recorded forty years after arriving in the Promised Land, suggesting that he lived somewhere in North America where blizzards “drive” the snow, providing an analogy that had a special and understandable meaning for those who witnessed snow driven by strong winds.” (See p. 300, Annotated Book of Mormon “Four Seasons in the Promised Land.”) In addition, Actually, snow and hail are mentioned three times in the text in conjunction with dreams and exhortations (1 Nephi 11:8, Mosiah 12:6 and Helaman 5:12).

When Mormon edited the plates for the coming Book of Mormon, climate in the holy land was not really mentioned, it seemed he had other things to pass on. By the way, there are descriptions of animals and other things making the following very important. If there were volcanoes, jungles, jade, jaguars, tapirs, massive stone pyramids, and, especially, millions of Mayans, these “most certainly” would not be mentioned.

An excellent example of the 'grasping at straws' methodology used by Heartlanders when it comes to justifying their model from scripture.

Snow does fall in Jerusalem and environs from time-to-time. Snow is see on the higher elevations of Israel even more times, as it would be on the higher peaks of countries/locales to the south of us. Phrases incorporating snow is found 21 different times in the OT, and 4 times in the NT; with the phrase "white as snow" found in each of the NT passages and 6 times in the OT passages.

Regarding your other comments about things not mentioned in the BoM, no they didn't have the word jaguar but 'ravenous beasts' are mentioned. Could a jaguar be considered a ravenous beast? (Alma 2:37) And do you know what a "curelom" or a "cumon" is? I don't, but one of them could be a tapir. (Ether 9:19). Regarding the word 'jungle', could their word wilderness encompass a jungle? Why not? Wilderness is used repeatedly throughout the BofM. Elephants? Victor Von Hagen, in his book Ancient Sun Kingdoms of the Americas, sites evidence of finding elephant bones in the region of the Valley of Mexico.

And the massive stone pyramids. Once again, with feeling, these are common to the Mayan Classic to post classic era, not to the pre-classic. Regarding millions of Mayans, once again, the Book of Mormon time period was before the 'flower of the Mayan civilization. That there was some descent or cross-over of the Maya with the Book of Mormon people is indicated by several passages in their 'hidden' codices claiming they came from 7 tribes (as in the BofM), and came from across the sea from an original Land of Bountiful; these passages also contain strong hints/descriptions of their trek to the south of their land of origins before they reached their first Bountiful.

Tough to believe that Nephites living in NY state, especially the area of Buffalo, would not mention something about the common 2-4 foot show falls they would have to endure.

Oh you want more, I knew you would. In Helaman 11:17, it says, “that it [rain] did bring forth her fruit in the season of her fruit”. In North America what is the season of her fruit?
Typically in Ohio the harvest season is July, August, and September. In South America what is the season of her fruit? All the time!

Alma 46:40 it says, “And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate—”

At what seasons of the year would fevers be more likely? In South America there are basically two seasons. Hot and hotter. Or, warm and warmer. Rainy or not rainy? Dry or wet? In North America there are 4 seasons of the year and and at what time of the year are fevers and the flu more frequent?


Peak Month of Flu Activity 1982-1983 through 2017-2018
The Flu Season
“While seasonal influenza (flu) viruses are detected year-round in the United States, flu viruses are most common during the fall and winter. The exact timing and duration of flu seasons can vary, but influenza activity often begins to increase in October. Most of the time flu activity peaks between December and February, although activity can last as late as May.” Center for Disease Control

“Remember that the southern hemisphere seasons are reversed – with summer roughly November to February, and winter in June to August. Peru is pretty much a year round destination thanks to its proximity to the equator. However, visit between January and March and you’ll be slap bang in the middle of the rainy season.” https://bookofmormonevidence.org/snow-c ... of-mormon/

I'm not particularly interested in South America as a Book of Mormon model. I've even had dinner with the main proponent of the model (Potter) at my sister's house. Interesting conversation we had, but not too convincing.