Alma 22:32 No location in Central America is nearly surrounded by water.

[larsenb]

Many think it is the USA. However, even Joseph Smith pointed to Mesoamerica as the areas of the Book of Mormon. The Hill in New York is not capable of holding a cave, as the hill consists of gravel, therefore it would collapse according to LDS researchers. Refer to David A. Palmer's book- In Search of Cumorah'. My copy is 1981/1992/6th Print 1999 HB. Some LDS researchers think Hill Cumorah is Hill Vigia in Mexico near Tres Zapotes.

But some RLDS-CoC researchers pinpoint the Hill Cumorah- Nephites aka Hill Ramah- Jaredites, as Hill Rabon in the upper portion of Oaxaca state, Mexico near the Isthmus & many waters. As for Cerro Rabon being it, in the village next to it, in their ethnography, is that 3 men appear in the village the first week in April claiming to go check on the "National Treasure". People try to follow them as they head for the hill (mountain), but none have caught up with them. That is, until 1972, when young Neil Steede encountered one near the base of the cliff wall side. He was told it was not yet time & that he was not permitted to go further. Plus he was able to tell Neil all about himself & a friend of Neil's (and yet Neil had never met this man before). I have talked & stayed with the Simmons family (who made the Hill Rabon discovery) back in December 1987 & was even shown slides of the "hill" & where the cave it on the cliff side.

Ironically, in J.J. Hurtak's "Keys of Enoch" book 'The Book of Knowledge: The Keys of Enoch' of which was given to him by Enoch & Metatron. In Key # 108:24 it states that Michael is "the Creator of this local universe". In Key #215:41 it states that at Cerro Rabon the "Treasures of Heaven" are placed. Very similar to the term noted in Jalapa de Diaz's ethnography- the "National Treasury".

That would be the records & artifacts in the Cave Library high up on the cliff wall side.

Do you have any linked sources to any of this?

[kirtland r.m.]

From the gulf of teutanapec to south east Guatemala. Nearly surrounded by water Pacific Ocean and Gulf of Mexico

I answered this in great detail further up the thread. Further more, the so called narrow neck is not near as narrow as Great Lakes descriptions, along with all the other evidence. So where did they land? I believe they landed in modern day Florida for a variety of reasons. I can even do more but I don't want to wear out readers for the remaining month. What do I still have, you will see another thread on the latest D.N.A. evidence. You will learn something important there.

Yes, Florida, as the land of their first inheritance, i.e., where they first landed after their voyage from present day Oman. Problem with that is that several passages in the BofM don't square with that idea at all. This idea is one of the main force-fits employed by the Heartland modelers.

So next week, I will post on this.

[kirtland r.m.]

Many think it is the USA. However, even Joseph Smith pointed to Mesoamerica as the areas of the Book of Mormon. The Hill in New York is not capable of holding a cave, as the hill consists of gravel, therefore it would collapse according to LDS researchers. Refer to David A. Palmer's book- In Search of Cumorah'. My copy is 1981/1992/6th Print 1999 HB. Some LDS researchers think Hill Cumorah is Hill Vigia in Mexico near Tres Zapotes.

But some RLDS-CoC researchers pinpoint the Hill Cumorah- Nephites aka Hill Ramah- Jaredites, as Hill Rabon in the upper portion of Oaxaca state, Mexico near the Isthmus & many waters. As for Cerro Rabon being it, in the village next to it, in their ethnography, is that 3 men appear in the village the first week in April claiming to go check on the "National Treasure". People try to follow them as they head for the hill (mountain), but none have caught up with them. That is, until 1972, when young Neil Steede encountered one near the base of the cliff wall side. He was told it was not yet time & that he was not permitted to go further. Plus he was able to tell Neil all about himself & a friend of Neil's (and yet Neil had never met this man before). I have talked & stayed with the Simmons family (who made the Hill Rabon discovery) back in December 1987 & was even shown slides of the "hill" & where the cave it on the cliff side.

Ironically, in J.J. Hurtak's "Keys of Enoch" book 'The Book of Knowledge: The Keys of Enoch' of which was given to him by Enoch & Metatron. In Key # 108:24 it states that Michael is "the Creator of this local universe". In Key #215:41 it states that at Cerro Rabon the "Treasures of Heaven" are placed. Very similar to the term noted in Jalapa de Diaz's ethnography- the "National Treasury".

That would be the records & artifacts in the Cave Library high up on the cliff wall side.

Do you have any linked sources to any of this?

I knew this subject would be brought up sooner or later on the forum, here is a great description of what larsenb wants to defend. “Where did the idea that the Book of Mormon occurred in central America originate? The Smoking Gun of Book of Mormon Geography https://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-sm ... ography-2/

[kirtland r.m.]

Oh larsonb, that cave was rocked up (walled), you can do that even in a drumlin. I have seen several photos of it.

[kirtland r.m.]

nearly surrounded by water

In the Japanese Book of Mormon, "water" is "sea".
Is this a mistranslation?

Hello hideki, I have seen on another thread that you are interested to learn more about Book of Mormon geography and more. Keep reading on this forum, I have many evidences and I will continue to write much about this, and I study it intently as you can tell. Thank you for your posts. I am glad you found us. I enjoy your comments.

[hideki]

nearly surrounded by water

In the Japanese Book of Mormon, "water" is "sea".
Is this a mistranslation?

Hello hideki, I have seen on another thread that you are interested to learn more about Book of Mormon geography and more. Keep reading on this forum, I have many evidences and I will continue to write much about this, and I study it intently as you can tell. Thank you for your posts. I am glad you found us. I enjoy your comments.

I do not speak English, so I use self-automatic translation.
You seem to have a lot of knowledge.

I have researched.
Hopewell culture seems to have a small population.
Is this article wrong?
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blo ... -of-mormon

[kirtland r.m.]

nearly surrounded by water

In the Japanese Book of Mormon, "water" is "sea".
Is this a mistranslation?

Hello hideki, I have seen on another thread that you are interested to learn more about Book of Mormon geography and more. Keep reading on this forum, I have many evidences and I will continue to write much about this, and I study it intently as you can tell. Thank you for your posts. I am glad you found us. I enjoy your comments.

I do not speak English, so I use self-automatic translation.
You seem to have a lot of knowledge.

I have researched.
Hopewell culture seems to have a small population.
Is this article wrong?
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blo ... -of-mormon

Thanks for the question hideki, most of the Book of Mormon scholars who are now intently studying it and distances described in it, think most of the experiences once Nephites and Lamanites got settled here, happened in an area about the size of the U.S. state of Pennsylvania. They appeared at the right time for the Nephites, and disappeared at the right time (400 A.D. ish) for them to be the right people. They were more advanced over time than the Lamanites who survived after them, and they suddenly disappeared as the Nephite description describes.

Only two reasons could have caused that, disease which there is no evidence of, or a very large war. The surviving tribes (laminates) often describe them, even saying they had white skin, and in stories handed down over generations these survivors admit to killing these people in battles. Some admit to burying the chief of these people (that would have been Mormon) near the Hill Cumorah in New York state. The Hopewell had enough people to be the very Nephites we are talking about. They have Hebrew D.N.A. which I am about to do a new post on in a week or two. I have many, many evidences that they were the Nephites, and have been posting about them. Here are some links for you to directly read about different subjects surrounding them.

Here are some quotes for you. “We are surrounded by evidences that a race preceded them [the Europeans], farther advanced in civilization and the arts, and far more numerous. Here and there upon the brows of our hills, at the head of our ravines, are their fortifications; their locations selected with skill, adapted to refuge, subsistence and defense.” (O. Turner, Pioneer History of the Holland Purchase of Western New York. 1850, page 18)

It is my opinion that the terrible conflicts which produced such a GREAT NUMBER of FORTIFICATIONS as we find in Western New York,...It seems impossible that a people conditioned as they must have been would have spent SO MUCH LABOR in building such monuments and FORTIFICATIONS. Earthworks and Late Prehistory on the Lake Erie Plain,” ed. Lynne P. Sullivan, New York State Museum Bulletin, no. 489, The State Education Department, 1996, pp.15-16).

And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites. — (Book of Mormon, Mormon 6:4)

When Mormon leads his people to the Hill Cumorah, he makes a point of recording that it was located in the “land of many waters.” This would indicate that the number of lakes, rivers, streams and springs was unusual. The Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, NY, which we at Joseph Knew believe to be the Hill Cumorah spoken of by Mormon, is located in the Finger Lakes region of Western New York.

The early native people considered this area sacred and blessed by God. Native legend says that after He created the earth, God blessed it by placing his hand on this area, and this left the Finger Lakes. Lakes Cayuga and Seneca are among the deepest lakes in the United States. This area is a central part of the Iroquois homeland. The lakes sit below Lake Ontario and are a central feature in what Willard Bean called Cumorahland.

This area is certainly “a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains.” In New York there are over 1,600 fresh lakes, ponds and reservoirs. There are over 70,000 miles of rivers. The Finger Lakes are a group of eleven long, finger-like lakes.

The Finger Lakes area is a good candidate for The Land of Many Waters for several reasons.


The great number of lakes, rivers and streams would have slowed down the enemies from the south pursuing the Nephites northward. The Book of Mormon emphasizes the fact that the land of many waters was “an exceeding great distance” from the land of Zarahemla and that there were more streams, rivers, lakes, and fountains in that area than were to be found in any lands where these early people had dwelt.https://www.josephknew.com/land-of-many ... %20waters.

Western New York is truly a land of many waters containing nearly 850 waterfalls:https://library.buffalo.edu/maps/img/WNYwaterfalls.jpg

The Hill Cumorah is the largest hill in the area and would have served as a good look-out post. (Mormon 6:11)

Archeological evidence suggests two great nations perished in the Finger Lakes area.

In 1925 a farmer in Palmyra was digging a well and uncovered several large skeletons. The age of the skeletons was determined to be approximately 3,000 years old. This would fit in the time frame of the Jaradite Nation.

The Rochester Herald reported that, “In this pit were found an axe of peculiar shape, wide bit and other implements that bore signs of ancient warfare. There are dozens of similar ruins near Rochester. Upon these steep heights invading armies may have pressed a desperate assault, while all along the brow of the hills behind the rude fortifications of the great forest, stood the defenders of camp and home.”

Implements of war such as arrowheads, spearheads, axes and clubs have been found throughout the area which indicate great battles took place there around 600 – 300 B.C. and another 300 – 500 AD.

Remains of a giant race of people have been found in the area.

The next paragraph I believe, describes the Jaredites, who the scriptures described as large and mighty men.

In his 1888 book Pioneers of the Western Reserve, Harvey Rice recorded the recovery of human remains in the Finger Lakes area. He wrote: “Human bones of gigantic proportions were discovered in such a state of preservation as to be accurately described and measured. The cavities of the skulls were large enough in their dimensions to receive the entire head of a man of modern times, and could be put on one’s head with as much ease as a hat or cap. The jaw-bones were sufficiently large to admit of being placed so as to match or fit the outside of a modern man’s face.”https://www.josephknew.com/land-of-many ... %20waters.

Western New York is Unique(this is form bookofmormongeography.org.)

First and foremost it was populated with defensive forts, where forts should be, and how they should be, and lacking them where they should not be.

The great amount of copper implements and blocks of mica, that have been found, contradicts the theory of Mr. Squier that the tumuli located in Western New York are not the work of the Mound-Builders. I am satisfied, beyond a doubt, that the Indian races [Iroquois Nation] never mined for mica or copper, neither did they bury either of these articles with the remains of their distinguished dead (Frederick Larkin, M.D., Ancient Man in America Including Works in Western New York and Portions of Other States, 1880, p. 19).

The fact that Mr. Squier, after making some personal examinations of a few of the works in Western New York, has pronounced them the works of Indians [Iroquois Nation], has had great weight with modern investigators who have adopted that theory (Larkin, p. 62).

Notwithstanding the Iroquois were the most powerful and intellectual people north of the Montezumas, and that they displayed great energy, especially in war, and held much of the territory in eastern and central New York, I can learn of no mounds or military fortifications similar to those found in Western New York or that section lying between the southern shores of Lakes Erie and Ontario and the head waters of the Allegany River. No nation of Indians within the records of history has ever built structures that would stand the ravages of the time that has passed away since the foundations of many of the works located in Western New York have been laid (Larkin, p. 63).

It is admitted by all of the intelligent Iroquois with whom I have conversed, that the people who constructed the mounds were an unknown people, and that tradition interposes no beams of light to extricate them from the confusion which has been wrought by time (Larkin, p. 64).

The evidences of mound culture are more numerous in extreme western New York than east of the Genesee river (The Genesee River/Gorge, the “Grand Canyon of the East” was the East Sea). [TRUE] The culture seems to have entered the State along the shores of Lake Erie and up from the Allegheny river. Chautauqua, Erie and Cattaraugus counties thus contain a larger number of mounds than do other portions of the State, though certain other sections, as the Genesee valley, have yielded relics in abundance (Arthur Caswell Parker, Archeological History of New York, vol. 1-2, 1922, p. 9).

In 27 counties some form of mound has been reported and a summary of these follows. They are most frequent west of the center of the State (William M. Beauchamp, “Perch lake mounds, with notes on other New York mounds, and some accounts of Indian trails,” New York State Museum Bulletin, 87, Archeology 10, 1905, p. 25).

More Heartland model evidence,

From the appearance of the mounds and their location and mode of construction found in Western New York, I am led to believe that at the time those cruel and devastating wars were waged the assaulting party came from the south [TRUE] and it is not improbable that there might have been a northern and a southern confederacy, [TRUE] and that policies might have been in some way connected with it (Larkin, p. 75).

Second, it has the correct width, where the width is given.

Third, it is the correct length, where the length is given.

Fourth, it has water where water should be (or evidence of how it was anciently) and how it should be with rivers, waters and seas.

Fifth, it has a Narrow Neck where the Narrow Neck should be.

Sixth, the terrain is as it should be, where it should be, with plains, mountains, valleys, hills and harbors.

Seventh, it has timber and the types of timber used for houses, temples and ships, where they should exist and in adjacent areas where they could find timber.

Eighth, it has cement where cement should be and lacking it where it should not be.

Ninth, it has unique features that make it choice above all other lands, like a water filtration system, gravity fed irrigation system, continuous lighting, rich soils with plenty of precious metals, minerals and multiple fuel sources.

Tenth, land prophecies were fulfilled there including the changes that occurred at the coming of Jesus, the land becoming inhabited by multitudes of white Gentiles, the ownership of the land switching to the Gentiles, the Gentiles founding a new government with the Indians, that new government becoming a New Jerusalem, a land of liberty, without a king; becoming greater than all nations of the earth, a blessing to all nations of the earth, and a supporter of the restoration of the House of Israel, the establishment of the State of Israel.

Eleventh, a land that was filled with the Spirit of God, visits by Jesus, a state of doctrinal confusion and the place of the deposit and retrieval of the Nephite record.

Twelveth, the land where the mother countries of the Gentiles came to make war, by land and sea, against the Gentiles.

Thirteenth, the place where the power of God came down with miracles in support of the Gentiles.

I am persuaded that enough has been said to demonstrate the existence of a vast population, settled in towns, defended by forts, cultivating agriculture, and more advanced in civilization than the nations which have inhabited the same countries since the European discovery (Governor De Witt Clinton, Memoir on the Antiquities of the Western Parts of the State of New York, 1820, p. 14).

Swords of Iron, Steel & Copper in North America this information comes from

“…they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper.” (Ether 10:23)

If you are looking for the ores mentioned in the Book of Mormon, they do exist, and they have been found in North America. Many iron and copper swords HAVE been discovered. When most scientists or archaeologists find an unexplained item in their research, they very often label it a fake, or too good to be true. Since very few experts are looking in North America for iron and steel, it is ignored when they do find it.

“…Here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed. By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the Book of Mormon, you will read Mormon's account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope, or doubt.” Oliver Cowdery's Letter VII Joseph Smith Papers “Letter VII,” LDS Messenger and Advocate, July 1835, 1:155–159 .

“When I was plowing one day on the far end of the Sampson farm, (eastside of Hill Cumorah) Dad came by in the car, and suggested that I cross over the fence line into what had been he Bennett farm and plow up a field which had not been plowed for many years. I did so, and found the land to be exceptional, the soil was black and rich, the old Farmall H purred right along, pulling two 14” plows, which sunk into the maximum depth.
Above: Google Earth topo map with markings setup by Mark Ellis showing the length and wetland area of the farm.

When you plow a field for the first time, you lay out the first furrow very carefully, because if that furrow is crooked, so will be all the subsequent ones. The trick is to walk off the distance from the corners of the piece to a post or tree in the middle of the far side fence, then measure the same distance from the corresponding fence corner to your tractor. They you keep your eye on that center post, lining up the radiator cap with the target post, just like aiming a gun. It works every time.

After the initial furrow is laid down nice and straight, you just keep one wheel in the furrow and they all come nice and straight, you can even look behind to enjoy the beautiful sight of the plow turning over matching black ribbons of soil. Getting back to the point of this tale, after about 6 or 7 rounds I looked back at the new sod turning, and to my amazement it suddenly turned over a milky white color for a distance of about 12 or 15 feet, then back to black! The next two rounds the same thing happened, so that there was a white patch about 12 to 15 feet long and about 6 to 8 feet wide. I scooped up a handful of the white material which Dad sent off to Cornell College in Ithaca, NY; they identified it as being ancient human bone material.

Glen Ellis told me many times that he was plowing the Sampson Farm on the “other side” of the Hill Cumorah when he found the strange soil. Normally he did not plow that area because it was too wet. One year, he was able to plow the Sampson Farm field and noticed that the soil was an odd color, but that it changed color soon after it was turned over. He told his dad (Merlin Ellis) about the soil, who collected some of the odd soil and turned it into Cornell “College.” The analysis reported the material to be human bone.

I suspect that Glen used an International Farmall and pulled a 2-bottom plow with about 14-inch plowing depth. Time frame would have been between 1938 to 1946, likely the latter time frame.

The color change is easy to interpret. The soil was highly organic and was frequently under water. As the organic material in the soil degrades and consumes the oxygen in the soil/water the soil becomes anoxic. Anaerobic degradation generates hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg gas) that is liberated when the soil is turned. The soil would have changed from black to a lighter color or even to white as the hydrogen sulfide volatilized, 15 minutes likely.

Locations? I don ‘t know where the Sampson Farm was located, but Glen indicated the “other side” of the Hill Cumorah was the location of the Sampson farm. The “other side” of the Hill could have been the east side of the Hill or the south end. I would look for anything that appears to normally be wet, saturated or marshy. So, I also attach a map of wetlands around the Hill (Cumorah), or I would also look at woodlands.” By Glen Ellis & Mark Ellis edited by Wayne N. May Ancient American Magazine CUMORAH LAND AMERICA’S ANCIENT HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK LDS Special Edition VIII page 46:

The Sampson Farm is next to the hill Cumorah, take a look at this google image.https://i2.wp.com/www.bofm.blog/wp-cont ... .png?ssl=1.

In the next post on this thread, I will address the fairmormon page you read, and will give you more links to help round out your study and knowledge. おやすみ

[ransomme]

it's not worth a fight over stuff nobody knows for sure. I don't believe in the heartland model, but you post so much other good stuff that I'm gonna let this stuff slide...

a mudslide...

[ransomme]

It certainly can't be Central America ... this is a false theory that needs to be abandoned.

Christ came to "this land" and prophesied to the people: “Behold, now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the House of Israel. . . . And the Father hath commanded me that I should give you this land for your inheritance. . . . And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem.” 3 Nephi 20:10, 14, 22. You're not understanding what he's saying when you think he was standing in Central America saying that the New Jerusalem would be in "this land" when we know exactly where New Jerusalem will be: Missouri.

Depends on how broad you define "this land" to be.

Right away, there are problems with your interpretation, because: New Jerusalem refers to a city, not an entire country.

I'd like to see the dimensions of New Jerusalem transposed over central America.

Have Guatamala, or Mexico or Panama been known as lands of liberty?

There are so many reasons why central and/or South America don't fit as well as the Heartland.

[Lynn]

Noted:
++++++++++++++++++++
Do you have any linked sources to any of this?
++++++++++++++++++++

Depending upon what you are looking for, I guess I might start with Joseph Smith, jr.

This (noted down below) is cited in two books-

LDS
Book- 'In Search of Cumorah: New Evidences for the Book of Mormon from Ancient Mexico' by David A. Palmer (1981/1992/1999/6th Print HBw/BJ May 1999) published by Horizon Publishers PO Box 490 Bountiful, Utah 84011-0490 E-dress: <[email protected]> or Web-dress: <http://www.horizonpublishers.com> Note that this was listing from 1999. 270pp. Has an Appendix A Appendix B and References listed on pp.235-250. Map section pp.251-264. Index from pp.265-270. Size- 6.312" x 9.375" x 1.062" thick.

Palmer makes mention of Hill Rabon on p.91. It notes that ZRF has suggested after serious research that Hill Rabon, near Jalapa de Diaz could be Cumorah. However Palmer pushes Hill Vigia has his choice for Hill Cumorah/ Hill Ramah. I might note that Hill Vigia would also qualify as being near many waters, just as it is for Hill Rabon.

I will get into Palmer making some significant markers that would put New York out of the race for Cumorah later.

++++++++++++

RLDS (note that this family was one who broke off with the Restored group)
[I stay in touch with all groups, as not holding a priesthood function, I can freely congregate with whomever the Spirit sends me to.]
Book- crud, on the bottom of the stack behind me ...
'Peoples, Places and Prophecies: A Study of the Book of Mormon' by Verneil W. Simmons (1977/1981 HB) published by Zarahemla Research Foundation [ZRF]/ Po Box 1727 Independence, Missouri 64055 Note that is was good back around 1989/1990 & several groups merged in the past 20 years, so not sure who/what/went/where as I do not have high speed internet to search.
My copy may be a reprint of 1983. Dedicated in memory of her oldest son- Gareth Wayne Simmons. it is 273 pp. & has Notes from pp.259-269. Bibliography from pp.270-273. Size- 7.25" x 10.25" x 1.375" thick.
You might be able to get a used copy thru ABEbooks.com or Alibris.com

Verneil does not touch on Hill Rabon, but lays the groundwork. Verneil & family moved to Mexico due to her husband, petroleum job. Since he was a Seventy, then later a Patriarch in RLDS, they utilized him for ministry in Mexico. They were able to research much, as well as even after they moved back into Texas later.

Awhile back, Verneil shared on how Hill Rabon was found or pinpointed. Let's see if I can find that snip. I myself went or was headed to Mexico to investigate. The Inner Voice was summoning me to Rabon. But for some reason, I was to go to Austin to see the Patriarch who had given my Patriarchal Blessing. So I did. It seems his family & the Simmons were very close. He put me on a bus to them (to McAllen). I arrived the next morning & called the number given to me by Earl Allen once I arrived. I got Neil, who was now the eldest son (alive). He gave me a number for Frank Frye. As everybody was headed to their jobs. Frank picked me up, and we dropped my gear off at his house. I went to the school with Frank where he taught. I was able to listen to cassettes of their information away from the class. I almost got to see the previous summer's expedition on VHS to Rabon, but Frank had grabbed the wrong tape. At lunch, Neil & Dana (youngest brother) brought lunch & we all discussed why I was there. That afternoon as school ended, I was picked up, then we grabbed my gear & I was taken to the Simmon's multifamily complex. It seems Verneil & Wayne were up in Independence. I, Neil, and Dana discussed & shared, including the adventure of Neil Steede, who found out about Rabon from his classmate- Dana. Neil Steede eventually became an archaeologist & did much contract work for the Mexican government, as well as research the Mesoamerican setting of the Book of Mormon. He usually goes, along with others around the first week in April to Hill Rabon with others. Neil Steeded had an adventure in which he was saved by a miracle, and met one at the base of Hill Rabon, whom he believes was one of the 3 Nephites. As far as I Know, Neil Steede is still in RLDS/CoC

His book is 'Why I Believe ... In the Historical Veracity of the Book of Mormon' (2003/2004/2005 2nd Edition PB) Published by MLK Publications in the USA. 548 pp Size- 8.25" x 11" x 1.312" thick. A lot of stuff in this book. No index, but plenty of charts, illustrations & xeroxed pictures/photos. In collaboration with a Chinese archaeologist, the Mt Zerin seems to have been found, as well as Mt. Shelem, both in China. Neil signed my copy back in 2007.

I also have the 1986 Mexico map that Frank Frye gave me. It is running around here somewhere. I do have a 1990 one also. Anyways, there are two large lakes (one above & one to the east) near Hill Rabon, as well as plenty of rivers and creeks & smaller lake to the west. I have not scoped out Hill Vigia, but I am sure Palmer factored that into his equations.

As I noted up top, Joseph points to Mesoamerica. In both Simmons' & Palmer's book, Joseph relayed concerning a book that came out in his day, that we should take heed to, by John Lloyd Stephens. Joseph shared this in "Times & Seasons", Vol.3, No.23, p.927. See pp.21-23 of Palmer's book for the full quote/excerpt. The index only notes Times and Seasons on p.21, but it is listed on each of these 3 pages. Palmer also notes there was a problem with a notation of one of the entries into the new lands elsewhere in South America. This document (source) is now in question as to its true validity in LDS.

Simmons' brings this out on pp.106-108 of her book. She shares that Stephens came out with two volumes with descriptions of what he had seen & explored in Central America & Yucatan. The Book of Mormon was published in 1830. Stephens' first volume was published in 1841. The "Times & Seasons" had two references by Joseph in 1842. Here is the 1st snip- "Mr. Stephens' great developments of antiquities are made bare to the eyes of all the people by reading the history of the Nephites in the Book of Mormon. --->>> They lived about the narrow neck of land, which now embraces Central America, <<<--- with all the cities that can be found ... [italics by author]. (FN #2).
The second reference is much longer, so I will just share the the first & second sentences of it from "Times & Seasons"-
"Since our extract was published by Mr. Stephens 'Incidents of Travel', etc., we have found another important fact relating to the truth of the Book of Mormon. Central America, or Guatemala, is situated north of the Isthmus of Darian and once embraced several hundred miles of territory from north to south."
I make note that maybe there was a typo in there, as the isthmus is located north of Guatemala, but in Central America. However, it could be because the reference was made due to perhaps the reference of the Guatemala area, but not the actual current day borders of Guatemala. The next portions of the extract go on to note the similarities of places Stephens describing that coincided with Zarahemla in the Book of Mormon.

But Joseph identifies the Isthmus with the Book of Mormon lands. Hill Rabon is just west of the Isthmus (now called Isthmus of Tehuantepec), while Hill Vigia is further NW of Hill Rabon. Also note that Hill Rabon is a mountain, yet it is the final mountain of a range, but is much smaller than the others, thus it is referred to as a "hill"- "Cerro Rabon" (cerro meaning hill).

As you can see, I am not just a bookworm, but an adventurer, as to research. It was this story of a guy who went down to Mexico, who tried to retrieve the records from which came the Book of Mormon that brought me into RLDS. The first time I heard the story, was from my Uncle who had encountered the group RLDs in the late 1970s. In the mid 1980s (1985), I was told the story yet again by a friend who was currently in RLDS. I became a member of RLDS in 1986. And it was more detailed. From there, on one holiday in 1995, I was listening to cassettes a fellow member had sent me from Tennessee (a relative of our local pastor). I was listening to one when I realized it was the guy sharing of his adventure to Hill Rabon- Neil Steede. He shared of his experience in 1972. It was in December 1987 that I went to, or was headed to Hill Rabon (that I mentioned), of which I was diverted to the Simmons in McAllen, Texas. There I found the full story of Neil's adventure from the very family that firsthand had done the research & that Dana had shared this info with Neil. Come to find out, Neil did not actually go to get the records, he went to have a spiritual experience. And believe me he did. Neil has also noted that he wants no portion in retrieving the records, as that person will no longer have a personal life as they will be very busy being involved in such an extraordinary event in history. I share the 3 phases of Neil's adventure in chapter 3 (THE REAL DEAL), but substituting other names for all the players to protect their privacy, of my incomplete 3 section (1st section was 8 chapters of a total of 24) 1998 book (thru chapters 8 by October 2017) - 'The SEALED Records of Edgar Cayce, Joseph Smith, and Atlantis'. By an interesting twist of fate, SEALED was set aside due to certain events in early 1998. Academy (my 1997 email group called *The Academy*) members had free access to those chapters during late 1997 thru early 1998. At one time, The Academy had 3 websites (one main & 2 mirrors), but SEALED was only accessed on the main one). Academy Members (set up like Plato's & Einstein's) ranged from 50 to 200 worldwide, made up of like minds, yet diverse. The revealing of the Records shifted from 1998 to 2038 by a 40 year cycle. Nobody saw this one coming.

To take a side step, there are 3, of some 12 to 14 record caches placed around the globe, set to be accessed or released when "The Temple" reemerges from her hiding place in TOTO (Tongue of the Ocean), standing at a mile in heighth & not built my human hands, or even alien hands. These 3 sets have been placed in Atlantis (originals in or near The Temple), Egypt (of the Ra-Ta & Hept-Supt story of Edgar Cayce near the Spinx in an underground gold plated sealed pyramid known as the Hall of records or the pyramid of records), and the Yucatan or Central America set (those from which the Book of Mormon was a portion, now currently in Hill Rabon). And yet, there is a 4th that also may be accessed too. Two others note that another set lies in Tibet/China, but they do not note the Mexico/Yucatan/Central America set in their "3". This set in Tibet/China is in the cache in The Temple of the Great Tau Cross. As you can tell, I'm not just a bookworm or adventurer researcher, I am also a "player" heavily involved.

OK, so we now have shared evidence that Joseph pointed to Central America as the lands of the Book of Mormon story, which now points to the Hill Cumorah aka Hill Ramah being located there, not New York, as assumed. I will look for the details (the one or two shares) that Verneil shared of their research that led them to Hill Rabon. And I will post them here.

[Lynn]

You both speak of the "heartland". The heartland is not the New York area.

Perhaps if one has access to J.J. Hurtak's book 'The Book of Knowledge: The Keys of Enoch' (my copy is 1973/1977/1982/1987/1992/4th Ed. 1996 HB), see pages 49-50,On page 311 is another map of the sacred triangle of of which "KEYS" refers to Key # 105:48 noted " ... into the heartland of the Ancient of Days." And The Return of the Dove map on p.50 shows the outline of the Dove over North America which includes America, a tad of Canada, and Central America portions as well as out in the Bermuda Triangle area (which that very Key also takes note of). A diamond (at the heart/heartland of the dove, is over the area which includes Adam-ondi-Ahman & Independence, Missouri. But New York is not in the "heart/heartland" area. The head ironically is over & centered on the Isthmus. And I might add that the right eye would be right about where Hill Rabon is located of which I previously shared that the "KEYS" spoke of the "Treasures of Heaven" are stored in Cerro Rabon. The portions of the head seem to include the main portions of the Nephites' lands in Central America. I would mention something else I just spotted & realized from the Dove map, but I'll reserve that for perhaps later. For those wondering, The "KEYS" were given to Hurtak on January 2/3, 1973 by Enoch, as a gift of Revelation, not to be confused by teachings transmitted by or thru thinking computers, nor thru the power of channeled information. 64 Keys in spiritual & Science context were given to prepare mankind for what is to come in the next 30 or so years of "earth time". Some of the items revealed are that there were pyramids not only in China, but Mars as well, before the face & the D&M pyramid were discovered. And the link between the belt stars of Orion with the 3 Pyramids of Giza. And the list goes on & on.

I might add that a map showing the sacred triangle has the 3 end points of Tres Zapotes, Chichen-Itza, and Kaminaljuyu, along with two other points noted as Tikal & Palenque. And it is noted as the "Cerro Rabon area". This is on page 311. I might add that Hurtak's group organized a search group to research items from "KEYS" to match with discoveries around the world in science & spirituality. They have compiled a mass of data. I think I was given a copy of their findings to date as of back in or up to about the end of the century. It is upstairs in the Study (TreeHouse). Hurtak's group is AFFS or The Academy For Future Sciences.

[Lynn]

I forget if I added that Hill Rabon is the last in a chain of mountains, of which is unique. It is smaller, therefore also the reason it is called a "hill". It has an interesting feature. It has a high cliff wall on one side, more directed towards the south (compass-wise). But the opposite side is slow sloped, enough that you could use a 4x4 vehicle to drive all the way to the top. The cliff side is 5 miles from the village of Jalapa de Diaz. I had one co-worker from Mexico back in 1993-1995, tell me it was a sacred mountain. And there are some interesting notes concerning Rabon found in Joan Halifax's book- 'Shamanic Voices: A Survey of Visionary Narratives' 1991 PB dedicated to 3 people, one of which was Joseph Campbell.

This is from my notes on Rabon---
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Shamanic Voices: A Survey of Visionary Narratives (Arkana S.) by Joan Halifax (Paperback - Aug 15, 1991)
Used & new from $4.00
Other Editions: Paperback
Excerpt - page 221: "... contrary to fact, of a lake on top of the Cerro Rabon above Jalapa de Diaz. In this lake there exists ..."

***actually it is on pp.205 of the copy I acquired
=============================

Rabon info (2-10-07):

Moon Oaxaca (Moon Guides) by Bruce Whipperman (Paperback - Dec 5, 2006)
Buy new: $19.95 $13.57 Used & new from $13.19
Get it by Tuesday, Feb. 13, if you order in the next 63 hours and 52 minutes.
Excerpt - page 16: "... the highway climbs past the gigantic whale-back massif of the Cerro Rabon, ..."
› See more references to Cerro Rabon in this book.
Surprise me! See a random page in this book.


whale shaped Cerro Rabon
elevation about 7700 feet (2350 meters)
Mazatec's holy mountain
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Rabon is seen to resemble a whale if viewed from a certain side. I don't know about you, but that makes me think of Jonah & the whale story. Just a little over a mile high (on the cliff side). And is deemed by the Mazatec as a holy mountain.

The Cave library is way up, about 2/3rds or more (closer to the top of the cliff side) a little towards the left, as you might say, the right eye of the cliff side looking out below the cliff side. At one point, the vines had cleared (died) off & the cave was visible from the ground. From what I have gathered, Neil (Steede) seems to be focused on a lower cave of about 70 feet, which is not the Cave Library. From here (the one up high, a record-keeper could observe a vast area & be safe from marauders. I might add, the Simmons family also had access to airplanes in their research in Mexico, even around Hill Rabon.

The legends speak of an ancient lake on the top of the hill/mountain, but there is none (currently in actuality. That kind of reminds me of the original Zelda video game. Zelda gets the magic flute, plays it, and the lake evaporates to reveal a door.

That brings me to the interesting tidbit of the "old lady", be it an actual one (as several native Indian tribes live on the sloped side of Rabon), or a spirit. She knows the entrance of the Cave Library from the top of Rabon.

In 1986, I & another happened to get the same drift that a pyramid was within this mountain. You see, the characteristics of the hill/mountain Rabon, is one that was artificially "constructed". If you constantly bulldozed earth, you would create a structure in this fashion. If so, this was done in very ancient times, as if its purpose was pre-known. The fact that it resides on the end of a chain of mountains would give it the appearance it was a natural end of the chain, so as to disguise it.

You may wonder about what I have just shared, but you might compare that bit of info, to be akin Einstein's thought experiments, such as riding a beam of light, to be able to understand it better. For imagination is greater than knowledge, or should I say, leads into greater knowledge.

[Lynn]

In actuality, Joseph Smith never stated that the hill in New York that Moroni had placed a small portion of records, was the actual Hill Cumorah of the Nephites aka Hill Ramah of the Jaredites. And he never actually corrected Oliver Cowdery's assumption of it either. The "hill" in New York is definitely the one that Moroni trekked to, to leave a few & the U&T, breastplate, and such.

OK, here is one item from Verneil Simmons that led to the discovery of Hill Rabon. I sent this letter to a friend who eventually got to go on one of the trips to Rabon with Neil Steede. I sent my friend this in 2006 or 2007.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Randall,

When I was down in McAllen, Texas back in December 1987 visiting the Simmons (Neil & Dana), and Frank Frye, (actually was sent there by bus from a Patriarch in Austin) even though it was not told directly to me, it seemed to be hinted that this family was the one that "pinned" Hill Rabon as being Hill Cumorah (Nephites name)/Hill Ramah (Jaredites name). Verneil seems to confirm it. But I also note she speaks of Dana's experience one night at or on Rabon. It may be that this is the story (of Dana's experience & the family's experiences & of their research) which inspired Neil Steede's day & night experiences at Hill Rabon in April of 1972.

Below excerpted online from March 26, 2006
"3 Witnesses in the Restoration" (12pp. documentary of Verneil's, Mildred's, and Louise' testimonies)

===================================
My Testimony:
Verneil Simmons

Along with my two good friends, Mildred Smith and Louise Gregson, I make my record of the many years I have lived as a member of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

<snipped>

As a teenager, my deepest desire was to be an archaeologist— a desire that the Great Depression of the thirties made only a dream. College for me was out of the question. My family moved to Cameron, Missouri in 1936. There I met and married a young Church member, Wayne Simmons, who held the office of priest. Wayne’s family also had a church heritage going back five generations, to the building of the Kirtland Temple. He was born at old Far West and his father was the pastor of the small church, which still stands there today. We shared a mutual interest in the Book of Mormon as he was teaching that subject to the adult class in the Cameron Branch. The years following our marriage saw the birth of two of our sons, five war years spent in the Caribbean island of Aruba, a year in Costa Rica and nearly two years in Caracas, Venezuela.

My husband, Wayne, worked for Standard Oil, the Inter-American School Service and then became the director of the Cultural Center for the U.S. State Department in Venezuela.

These varied assignments gave us an opportunity to study Spanish and to delve into the culture and pre-history of much of Latin America. During these years I continued to spend hours studying various aspects of the Book of Mormon.

We had chosen to live in Latin America with our sons because of our conviction that the Church must eventually open missions to the Lamanites there. We thought that hope was fulfilled in 1950 when the General Conference named Wayne as the first Spanish speaking missionary to Latin America. Actually, it meant waiting years on the border in south Texas, with only vacation trips into Mexico for my archaeological research.

My years of study had convinced me that the lands described in the Book of Mormon could only be found in the area of southern Mexico, to El Salvador, an area called “Mesoamerica” by archaeologists. Therefore, Mormon’s Hill Cumorah had to be somewhere in southern Mexico. The search for that hill became a family quest. Studies of the ancient trade routes, as recorded by the Spaniards, led to exploration of an area new to us. Through a most unusual experience we found Cerro Rabon which fit all the requirements I had listed from the book itself. It was a great satisfaction to the family. In 1965 we were finally sent to Mexico City by the Church. Our older sons had married and only Dana, born in 1950, accompanied us. He got the archaeology degree I had wanted at the University of the Americas in Mexico. In 1965 the Church purchased a beautiful residence on Embassy Row, which had the promise of fulfilling all the needs of a center for missionary work in Latin America.

A congregation was developed with the help of a number of couples who came to Mexico for work or study. We provided a home there for many RLDS students who came to Mexico for language studies in Spanish, and for six years we were the Church guides to the museum and the archaeological ruins for the many saints who visited. Dana enjoyed sharing the story of his night on Cerro Rabón.

During the six years we spent in Mexico we came to understand that the leadership of the RLDS Church had no deep convictions about developing work in Latin America. We often discovered we were in opposition to the leadership of the Church when we urged more resources be given to the divinely appointed tasks of the Church. Instead of supporting the work to the Lamanites they were interested in secularizing the Church beliefs and programs. This was proven when in the mid 1970’s they sold the Church property in Mexico City, and wiped out the work there. We had been returned to the USA in 1970, first to serve in Minneapolis and later back to the border in Texas. I continued teaching Book of Mormon classes in districts, reunions, branches and study workshops.

Frequently, I was urged to put all the information into a book, which at that time I had never considered. I did believe that the promise of the coming forth of the original records still hidden in Cumorah South was of vital importance to the Church. Because of that conviction I yielded to my students and accordingly, Peoples Places and Prophecies was written, printed at the Herald House, and went on sale at the 1978 Conference when we were retired from Church appointment.

I consider the printing of this book no small miracle. The 1980 Conference brought an order from the Presidency to remove from the Church’s bookstores forced Louise Gregson, Thelona Stevens, Roy Weldon and myself to find other outlets for our Book of Mormon materials. Because of our conviction that we must continue to witness the truths of the Book of Mormon to the Church and the world we found ways to do it. I gave my book to Brother Raymond Treat, and the Zarahemla Research Foundation published three thousand hard bound copies of the book. It is now out of print.

But in this same period, the RLDS leadership used its publications to raise doubts about the validity of the Book of Mormon as a historical document.

<snipped>

===================================

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I might add that in this one, Verneil left out further details. But she did take note that Dana must have had some sort of experience at Hill Rabon. I forget if Dana or Neil shared a brief about this "experience", but I think it had to do with an encounter with one of the 3 Nephites. And Dana, being a college classmate of Neil Steede, he shared the information with him, not realizing the impact of that. Neil went down to have an experience too. But then he brought out Hill Rabon into the spotlight, something the Simmons were hoping to slowly leak out. So I sensed a bit of tension here or hurt feelings. If you will notice that Verneil uses a term- Hill Cumorah South. They decided since so many were used to calling the hill in New York- Cumorah, that they had to distinguish between the two, thus Hill Cumorah North (in NY) & Cumorah South (Hill Rabon/Ramah of the BoM). If you Google the portion noted upfront, it may still be online. Also remember that any time RLDS/CoC list BoM references, the chapters & verses are not the same with LDS.

Let's see if I can find the other snip. OK, got it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Further Testimony of Verneil Simmons from 2011 (I think):
<http://www.thekeystone.org/news.html>

News
Book of Mormon Symposium

Verneil Simmons shared her testimony Saturday evening, May 29 (2011 I think), describing her life-long quest for the location of the ancient Hill Cumorah where Mormon placed the sacred records. About 125 people attended the event, a beginning in our promotion of fellowship among Book of Mormon believers in the church.

The official map published by the church in 1894 placed the hill in Western New York, the place where Joseph obtained the plates. That map was the winner of a church wide contest and was not based on any archeaological evidence. Even simple comparisons with the descriptions of the hill portrayed in the Book of Mormon and the hill in New York show inconsistencies.

Verneil’s quest began in 1932 with the visit of a stranger, whom her parents believed was one of the three Nephites. It required an intense study of the geography as recorded in the Book of Mormon and years of research in Mexico. Her entire family became involved.

One significant clue was discovered by her son Gareth in the mid-sixties. He found a 1933 report from a young student detailing the legends [in their Ethnography] at Jalapa de Diaz, a village at the base of Hill Rabon in Southern Mexico. One of them described three men who yearly came to the mountain and announced that they are guardians of the records of an ancient culture.

A comparison of Hill Rabon with the requirements that the Book of Mormon’s geography placed on it, as well as a trip by part of her family to the mountain’s base, confirmed it as the long-sought location.

Verneil’s testimony ended with account of another mysterious stranger who approved her husband’s intentions to share a photo of the hill with the saints for the first time. This happened in 1972. Verneil’s husband, Wayne, tried to meet the stranger after the meeting, but he had disappeared. No one present had seen him come or go. Neither did any know who he was. Wayne believed that he was one of the three Nephites, putting the confirming seal and approval on Verneil’s life-long quest.

Verneil said that the night’s testimony was the first time that this valiant latter-day saint has shared all the high points in the history of her remarkable discovery.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I might add that in this Ethnography of the 3 men who appeared in the village next to Hill Rabon did so in the first week of April, which may be linked to the church due to becoming a church on April 6th, 1830. And they state they are going to check on the "National Treasury". That term seems to correspond with Hurtak's "Keys of Enoch", of which was noted that the "Treasures of Heaven" are stored there at/in Cerro Rabon.


My trip to McAllen, Texas was back in December 1987. From what I understand, Frank is now living on Rabon or in that area, in the state of Oaxaca, Mexico. Here is a clip I found online.

++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++
http://www.cerro-rabon.org/2001/

http://warrenb234.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html
Frank Frye's class on Book of Mormon geography:

Frank said that a new set of 3 DVD’s will soon be available on Book of Mormon: Quetzalcoatl - Evidence that Jesus Christ ministered in America.

Eight Pillars of Evidence that supports the divinity of the Book of Mormon.

The Geography of the Book of Mormon

They will be available soon and can be purchased through the Mexican Ministry Support Group or through the Conference Office (CRE).


Notes from Frank’s class:
Where is Hill Cumorah?
Joseph Smith never said or wrote that that the hill in New York State was called Hill Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery made a false leap in a letter to think that the plates hidden by Mormon was the same hill in that the plates were found on in New York. (see Mormon RLDS/CoC 3:8) [LDS Mormon 6:6]

Mormon gave his son Moroni a “few plates” which were an abridgement of the plates of Nephi. This “abridgement” by Mormon is what what was hidden on the hill in New York.

The hill in New York is only 140 feet high. There are 10,000 other similar hills in New York. There is nothing outstanding about the hill where the plates were found. It is not a hill that Mormon would have chosen for the final battle as it is easily surrounded.

There are 10 requirements needed to identify Hill Cumorah:
It must be a prominent feature.
It had an excellent view to the south.
It was of strategic (military) value. (Mormon RLDS 3:5) [LDS Mormon 6:4]
It protected an area where many people could live for some time with ample water. (Mormon described it as a land of many waters).
It must be located in the “land of desolation.”
It must be near the “narrow neck of land.”
It must be on an important trade route. (Frank mentioned that Verneil Simmons found in her studies that there was a well established trade in salt which follows the river that passes by Hill Rabon (Cumorah) in Mexico).
It must have both an older and a younger culture in the area. (ie. Nephite and Olmec cultures.)
It must have caves in the same area. (The hill in New York area is not known for caves)
It must be on the eastern coast.
Does Cerro Rabon in Mexico fit these requirements? Yes.
Cerro Rabon is over 5000 feet high with a river running nearby and from its hillside you can see for miles to the south. It is of strategic military value. It has many caves. There is evidence of two major cultures having lived in this area, etc.
++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++

There has been an elaborate amount of underground caves that are being explored by current explorers. It is even possible they may link from Hill Shem (Shim) to Cumorah (Rabon). Somewhere I have the research map by ZRF or FRAA which shows the location of Hill Shim, but I would have to search for it. But as I noted earlier, the cliff wall side (high side) basically faces south. As to Hill Vigia, I would have to look back in Palmer's book to see if it mentions heighth.

I guess we'll pause here for now.

[Subcomandante]

It certainly can't be Central America ... this is a false theory that needs to be abandoned.

Christ came to "this land" and prophesied to the people: “Behold, now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the House of Israel. . . . And the Father hath commanded me that I should give you this land for your inheritance. . . . And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem.” 3 Nephi 20:10, 14, 22. You're not understanding what he's saying when you think he was standing in Central America saying that the New Jerusalem would be in "this land" when we know exactly where New Jerusalem will be: Missouri.

Depends on how broad you define "this land" to be.

Right away, there are problems with your interpretation, because: New Jerusalem refers to a city, not an entire country.

I'd like to see the dimensions of New Jerusalem transposed over central America.

Have Guatamala, or Mexico or Panama been known as lands of liberty?

There are so many reasons why central and/or South America don't fit as well as the Heartland.

I don't know...during the pandemic, Mexico was quite free compared with the rest of the world.

[larsenb]

It certainly can't be Central America ... this is a false theory that needs to be abandoned.

Christ came to "this land" and prophesied to the people: “Behold, now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the House of Israel. . . . And the Father hath commanded me that I should give you this land for your inheritance. . . . And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem.” 3 Nephi 20:10, 14, 22. You're not understanding what he's saying when you think he was standing in Central America saying that the New Jerusalem would be in "this land" when we know exactly where New Jerusalem will be: Missouri.

Depends on how broad you define "this land" to be.

Right away, there are problems with your interpretation, because: New Jerusalem refers to a city, not an entire country.

I'd like to see the dimensions of New Jerusalem transposed over central America.

Have Guatamala, or Mexico or Panama been known as lands of liberty?

There are so many reasons why central and/or South America don't fit as well as the Heartland.

Ironically, we had a near neighbor consisting of a couple from Mexico with children. At one point, the mother of one of the couple, came to live with them, and I got to know her fairly well. But about a year later, she said she was going back to Mexico. I asked her why. She said she had a strong sense of a lack of freedom here, and didn't like that. Government interference to the max.

Then you have to consider that the entire hemisphere was a haven for those seeking freedom from their parent cultures/kingdoms, poverty, etc. So it really has been a haven for the oppressed, with a lot of liberations going on to throw off foreign domination/oppression. There are quite a few heroes of these movement in South America, etc.

[ransomme]

Depends on how broad you define "this land" to be.

Right away, there are problems with your interpretation, because: New Jerusalem refers to a city, not an entire country.

I'd like to see the dimensions of New Jerusalem transposed over central America.

Have Guatamala, or Mexico or Panama been known as lands of liberty?

There are so many reasons why central and/or South America don't fit as well as the Heartland.

I don't know...during the pandemic, Mexico was quite free compared with the rest of the world.

Mexico is very free, after all groups of people can run around killing others, growing and selling drugs, etc. relatively unchecked. Plus that is such an atypical period of time.

And the quality of liberty is only one of many aspects that need to fit the land described in scripture. For instance, it also needs to be an Egypt, a superpower.

[larsenb]

In actuality, Joseph Smith never stated that the hill in New York that Moroni had placed a small portion of records, was the actual Hill Cumorah of the Nephites aka Hill Ramah of the Jaredites. And he never actually corrected Oliver Cowdery's assumption of it either. The "hill" in New York is definitely the one that Moroni trekked to, to leave a few & the U&T, breastplate, and such. . . . .

A real flood of information indicating a LOT of work you've put into these topics. I really appreciate it and will respond somewhat later. And you've come to many of the same conclusions I have.

Incidentally, I posted earlier on the fairly recent work (2017) done by Warren Aston and Kirk Magleby and others, in trying to assess the best candicate for the Hill Cumorah/Ramah ( viewtopic.php?p=1437530#p1437530 ). They looked at Cerro Bernal, Cerro Rabin, Cerro Vegia (Sorenson's pick), and finally Cerro San Martin Pajapan in the Tuxtla Plateau in southern Vera Cruz, which they think is the best candidate.

I recently asked Warren if they have done any follow-up work, and he said they hadn't been able to get anything else off the ground.

[larsenb]

I'd like to see the dimensions of New Jerusalem transposed over central America.

Have Guatamala, or Mexico or Panama been known as lands of liberty?

There are so many reasons why central and/or South America don't fit as well as the Heartland.

I don't know...during the pandemic, Mexico was quite free compared with the rest of the world.

Mexico is very free, after all groups of people can run around killing others, growing and selling drugs, etc. relatively unchecked. Plus that is such an atypical period of time.

And the quality of liberty is only one of many aspects that need to fit the land described in scripture. For instance, it also needs to be an Egypt, a superpower.

Unfortunately, the general population of Mexico doesn't and probably didn't have a strong moral base comparable to the Puritan/Christian base much of our country has had (which is rapidly disintegrating). Here, the moral base has been mainly individualistic because of Protestantism, not one dominated and dictated by a single Church.

The requirement for a country with institutions that enabled the Restoration, and one that would later become a superpower, doesn't preclude other countries in the promised land from at least trying to throw off oppressors and acting as a refuge for immigrants from the old world, even though they don't reach superpower status.

[SantaFe]

I answered this in great detail further up the thread. Further more, the so called narrow neck is not near as narrow as Great Lakes descriptions, along with all the other evidence. So where did they land? I believe they landed in modern day Florida for a variety of reasons. I can even do more but I don't want to wear out readers for the remaining month. What do I still have, you will see another thread on the latest D.N.A. evidence. You will learn something important there.

Yes, Florida, as the land of their first inheritance, i.e., where they first landed after their voyage from present day Oman. Problem with that is that several passages in the BofM don't square with that idea at all. This idea is one of the main force-fits employed by the Heartland modelers.

So next week, I will post on this.

I used to live in the Florida Panhandle. There is an Ancient Indian Mount builder museum there.
https://www.fwb.org/347/Indian-Temple-Mound-Museum

[kirtland r.m.]

From the gulf of teutanapec to south east Guatemala. Nearly surrounded by water Pacific Ocean and Gulf of Mexico

I answered this in great detail further up the thread. Further more, the so called narrow neck is not near as narrow as Great Lakes descriptions, along with all the other evidence. So where did they land? I believe they landed in modern day Florida for a variety of reasons. I can even do more but I don't want to wear out readers for the remaining month. What do I still have, you will see another thread on the latest D.N.A. evidence. You will learn something important there.

Yes, Florida, as the land of their first inheritance, i.e., where they first landed after their voyage from present day Oman. Problem with that is that several passages in the BofM don't square with that idea at all. This idea is one of the main force-fits employed by the Heartland modelers.

Yes, I will post on this so you can argue with it next week.

[hideki]

Hello hideki, I have seen on another thread that you are interested to learn more about Book of Mormon geography and more. Keep reading on this forum, I have many evidences and I will continue to write much about this, and I study it intently as you can tell. Thank you for your posts. I am glad you found us. I enjoy your comments.

I do not speak English, so I use self-automatic translation.
You seem to have a lot of knowledge.

I have researched.
Hopewell culture seems to have a small population.
Is this article wrong?
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blo ... -of-mormon

Thanks for the question hideki, most of the Book of Mormon scholars who are now intently studying it and distances described in it, think most of the experiences once Nephites and Lamanites got settled here, happened in an area about the size of the U.S. state of Pennsylvania. They appeared at the right time for the Nephites, and disappeared at the right time (400 A.D. ish) for them to be the right people. They were more advanced over time than the Lamanites who survived after them, and they suddenly disappeared as the Nephite description describes.

Only two reasons could have caused that, disease which there is no evidence of, or a very large war. The surviving tribes (laminates) often describe them, even saying they had white skin, and in stories handed down over generations these survivors admit to killing these people in battles. Some admit to burying the chief of these people (that would have been Mormon) near the Hill Cumorah in New York state. The Hopewell had enough people to be the very Nephites we are talking about. They have Hebrew D.N.A. which I am about to do a new post on in a week or two. I have many, many evidences that they were the Nephites, and have been posting about them. Here are some links for you to directly read about different subjects surrounding them.

Here are some quotes for you. “We are surrounded by evidences that a race preceded them [the Europeans], farther advanced in civilization and the arts, and far more numerous. Here and there upon the brows of our hills, at the head of our ravines, are their fortifications; their locations selected with skill, adapted to refuge, subsistence and defense.” (O. Turner, Pioneer History of the Holland Purchase of Western New York. 1850, page 18)

It is my opinion that the terrible conflicts which produced such a GREAT NUMBER of FORTIFICATIONS as we find in Western New York,...It seems impossible that a people conditioned as they must have been would have spent SO MUCH LABOR in building such monuments and FORTIFICATIONS. Earthworks and Late Prehistory on the Lake Erie Plain,” ed. Lynne P. Sullivan, New York State Museum Bulletin, no. 489, The State Education Department, 1996, pp.15-16).

And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites. — (Book of Mormon, Mormon 6:4)

When Mormon leads his people to the Hill Cumorah, he makes a point of recording that it was located in the “land of many waters.” This would indicate that the number of lakes, rivers, streams and springs was unusual. The Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, NY, which we at Joseph Knew believe to be the Hill Cumorah spoken of by Mormon, is located in the Finger Lakes region of Western New York.

The early native people considered this area sacred and blessed by God. Native legend says that after He created the earth, God blessed it by placing his hand on this area, and this left the Finger Lakes. Lakes Cayuga and Seneca are among the deepest lakes in the United States. This area is a central part of the Iroquois homeland. The lakes sit below Lake Ontario and are a central feature in what Willard Bean called Cumorahland.

This area is certainly “a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains.” In New York there are over 1,600 fresh lakes, ponds and reservoirs. There are over 70,000 miles of rivers. The Finger Lakes are a group of eleven long, finger-like lakes.

The Finger Lakes area is a good candidate for The Land of Many Waters for several reasons.


The great number of lakes, rivers and streams would have slowed down the enemies from the south pursuing the Nephites northward. The Book of Mormon emphasizes the fact that the land of many waters was “an exceeding great distance” from the land of Zarahemla and that there were more streams, rivers, lakes, and fountains in that area than were to be found in any lands where these early people had dwelt.https://www.josephknew.com/land-of-many ... %20waters.

Western New York is truly a land of many waters containing nearly 850 waterfalls:https://library.buffalo.edu/maps/img/WNYwaterfalls.jpg

The Hill Cumorah is the largest hill in the area and would have served as a good look-out post. (Mormon 6:11)

Archeological evidence suggests two great nations perished in the Finger Lakes area.

In 1925 a farmer in Palmyra was digging a well and uncovered several large skeletons. The age of the skeletons was determined to be approximately 3,000 years old. This would fit in the time frame of the Jaradite Nation.

The Rochester Herald reported that, “In this pit were found an axe of peculiar shape, wide bit and other implements that bore signs of ancient warfare. There are dozens of similar ruins near Rochester. Upon these steep heights invading armies may have pressed a desperate assault, while all along the brow of the hills behind the rude fortifications of the great forest, stood the defenders of camp and home.”

Implements of war such as arrowheads, spearheads, axes and clubs have been found throughout the area which indicate great battles took place there around 600 – 300 B.C. and another 300 – 500 AD.

Remains of a giant race of people have been found in the area.

The next paragraph I believe, describes the Jaredites, who the scriptures described as large and mighty men.

In his 1888 book Pioneers of the Western Reserve, Harvey Rice recorded the recovery of human remains in the Finger Lakes area. He wrote: “Human bones of gigantic proportions were discovered in such a state of preservation as to be accurately described and measured. The cavities of the skulls were large enough in their dimensions to receive the entire head of a man of modern times, and could be put on one’s head with as much ease as a hat or cap. The jaw-bones were sufficiently large to admit of being placed so as to match or fit the outside of a modern man’s face.”https://www.josephknew.com/land-of-many ... %20waters.

Western New York is Unique(this is form bookofmormongeography.org.)

First and foremost it was populated with defensive forts, where forts should be, and how they should be, and lacking them where they should not be.

The great amount of copper implements and blocks of mica, that have been found, contradicts the theory of Mr. Squier that the tumuli located in Western New York are not the work of the Mound-Builders. I am satisfied, beyond a doubt, that the Indian races [Iroquois Nation] never mined for mica or copper, neither did they bury either of these articles with the remains of their distinguished dead (Frederick Larkin, M.D., Ancient Man in America Including Works in Western New York and Portions of Other States, 1880, p. 19).

The fact that Mr. Squier, after making some personal examinations of a few of the works in Western New York, has pronounced them the works of Indians [Iroquois Nation], has had great weight with modern investigators who have adopted that theory (Larkin, p. 62).

Notwithstanding the Iroquois were the most powerful and intellectual people north of the Montezumas, and that they displayed great energy, especially in war, and held much of the territory in eastern and central New York, I can learn of no mounds or military fortifications similar to those found in Western New York or that section lying between the southern shores of Lakes Erie and Ontario and the head waters of the Allegany River. No nation of Indians within the records of history has ever built structures that would stand the ravages of the time that has passed away since the foundations of many of the works located in Western New York have been laid (Larkin, p. 63).

It is admitted by all of the intelligent Iroquois with whom I have conversed, that the people who constructed the mounds were an unknown people, and that tradition interposes no beams of light to extricate them from the confusion which has been wrought by time (Larkin, p. 64).

The evidences of mound culture are more numerous in extreme western New York than east of the Genesee river (The Genesee River/Gorge, the “Grand Canyon of the East” was the East Sea). [TRUE] The culture seems to have entered the State along the shores of Lake Erie and up from the Allegheny river. Chautauqua, Erie and Cattaraugus counties thus contain a larger number of mounds than do other portions of the State, though certain other sections, as the Genesee valley, have yielded relics in abundance (Arthur Caswell Parker, Archeological History of New York, vol. 1-2, 1922, p. 9).

In 27 counties some form of mound has been reported and a summary of these follows. They are most frequent west of the center of the State (William M. Beauchamp, “Perch lake mounds, with notes on other New York mounds, and some accounts of Indian trails,” New York State Museum Bulletin, 87, Archeology 10, 1905, p. 25).

More Heartland model evidence,

From the appearance of the mounds and their location and mode of construction found in Western New York, I am led to believe that at the time those cruel and devastating wars were waged the assaulting party came from the south [TRUE] and it is not improbable that there might have been a northern and a southern confederacy, [TRUE] and that policies might have been in some way connected with it (Larkin, p. 75).

Second, it has the correct width, where the width is given.

Third, it is the correct length, where the length is given.

Fourth, it has water where water should be (or evidence of how it was anciently) and how it should be with rivers, waters and seas.

Fifth, it has a Narrow Neck where the Narrow Neck should be.

Sixth, the terrain is as it should be, where it should be, with plains, mountains, valleys, hills and harbors.

Seventh, it has timber and the types of timber used for houses, temples and ships, where they should exist and in adjacent areas where they could find timber.

Eighth, it has cement where cement should be and lacking it where it should not be.

Ninth, it has unique features that make it choice above all other lands, like a water filtration system, gravity fed irrigation system, continuous lighting, rich soils with plenty of precious metals, minerals and multiple fuel sources.

Tenth, land prophecies were fulfilled there including the changes that occurred at the coming of Jesus, the land becoming inhabited by multitudes of white Gentiles, the ownership of the land switching to the Gentiles, the Gentiles founding a new government with the Indians, that new government becoming a New Jerusalem, a land of liberty, without a king; becoming greater than all nations of the earth, a blessing to all nations of the earth, and a supporter of the restoration of the House of Israel, the establishment of the State of Israel.

Eleventh, a land that was filled with the Spirit of God, visits by Jesus, a state of doctrinal confusion and the place of the deposit and retrieval of the Nephite record.

Twelveth, the land where the mother countries of the Gentiles came to make war, by land and sea, against the Gentiles.

Thirteenth, the place where the power of God came down with miracles in support of the Gentiles.

I am persuaded that enough has been said to demonstrate the existence of a vast population, settled in towns, defended by forts, cultivating agriculture, and more advanced in civilization than the nations which have inhabited the same countries since the European discovery (Governor De Witt Clinton, Memoir on the Antiquities of the Western Parts of the State of New York, 1820, p. 14).

Swords of Iron, Steel & Copper in North America this information comes from

“…they did cast up mighty heaps of earth to get ore of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of copper.” (Ether 10:23)

If you are looking for the ores mentioned in the Book of Mormon, they do exist, and they have been found in North America. Many iron and copper swords HAVE been discovered. When most scientists or archaeologists find an unexplained item in their research, they very often label it a fake, or too good to be true. Since very few experts are looking in North America for iron and steel, it is ignored when they do find it.

“…Here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed. By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the Book of Mormon, you will read Mormon's account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope, or doubt.” Oliver Cowdery's Letter VII Joseph Smith Papers “Letter VII,” LDS Messenger and Advocate, July 1835, 1:155–159 .

“When I was plowing one day on the far end of the Sampson farm, (eastside of Hill Cumorah) Dad came by in the car, and suggested that I cross over the fence line into what had been he Bennett farm and plow up a field which had not been plowed for many years. I did so, and found the land to be exceptional, the soil was black and rich, the old Farmall H purred right along, pulling two 14” plows, which sunk into the maximum depth.
Above: Google Earth topo map with markings setup by Mark Ellis showing the length and wetland area of the farm.

When you plow a field for the first time, you lay out the first furrow very carefully, because if that furrow is crooked, so will be all the subsequent ones. The trick is to walk off the distance from the corners of the piece to a post or tree in the middle of the far side fence, then measure the same distance from the corresponding fence corner to your tractor. They you keep your eye on that center post, lining up the radiator cap with the target post, just like aiming a gun. It works every time.

After the initial furrow is laid down nice and straight, you just keep one wheel in the furrow and they all come nice and straight, you can even look behind to enjoy the beautiful sight of the plow turning over matching black ribbons of soil. Getting back to the point of this tale, after about 6 or 7 rounds I looked back at the new sod turning, and to my amazement it suddenly turned over a milky white color for a distance of about 12 or 15 feet, then back to black! The next two rounds the same thing happened, so that there was a white patch about 12 to 15 feet long and about 6 to 8 feet wide. I scooped up a handful of the white material which Dad sent off to Cornell College in Ithaca, NY; they identified it as being ancient human bone material.

Glen Ellis told me many times that he was plowing the Sampson Farm on the “other side” of the Hill Cumorah when he found the strange soil. Normally he did not plow that area because it was too wet. One year, he was able to plow the Sampson Farm field and noticed that the soil was an odd color, but that it changed color soon after it was turned over. He told his dad (Merlin Ellis) about the soil, who collected some of the odd soil and turned it into Cornell “College.” The analysis reported the material to be human bone.

I suspect that Glen used an International Farmall and pulled a 2-bottom plow with about 14-inch plowing depth. Time frame would have been between 1938 to 1946, likely the latter time frame.

The color change is easy to interpret. The soil was highly organic and was frequently under water. As the organic material in the soil degrades and consumes the oxygen in the soil/water the soil becomes anoxic. Anaerobic degradation generates hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg gas) that is liberated when the soil is turned. The soil would have changed from black to a lighter color or even to white as the hydrogen sulfide volatilized, 15 minutes likely.

Locations? I don ‘t know where the Sampson Farm was located, but Glen indicated the “other side” of the Hill Cumorah was the location of the Sampson farm. The “other side” of the Hill could have been the east side of the Hill or the south end. I would look for anything that appears to normally be wet, saturated or marshy. So, I also attach a map of wetlands around the Hill (Cumorah), or I would also look at woodlands.” By Glen Ellis & Mark Ellis edited by Wayne N. May Ancient American Magazine CUMORAH LAND AMERICA’S ANCIENT HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK LDS Special Edition VIII page 46:

The Sampson Farm is next to the hill Cumorah, take a look at this google image.https://i2.wp.com/www.bofm.blog/wp-cont ... .png?ssl=1.

In the next post on this thread, I will address the fairmormon page you read, and will give you more links to help round out your study and knowledge. おやすみ

This is an automatic translation.
Thanks.
I need to read a lot, so I will read carefully and then ask questions.


Implements of war such as arrowheads, spearheads, axes and clubs have been found throughout the area which indicate great battles took place there around 600 - 300 B.C. and another 300 - 500 AD.

What is the basis for this opinion?
Do you have any scientific evidence or scientific research results?


Second, it has the correct width, where the width is given.
Third, it is the correct length, where the length is given.
Fourth, it has water where water should be (or evidence of how it was anciently) and how it should be with rivers, waters and seas.
Fifth, it has a Narrow Neck where the Narrow Neck should be.
Sixth, the terrain is as it should be, where it should be, with plains, mountains, valleys, hills and harbors.
Seventh, it has timber and the types of timber used for houses, temples and ships, where they should exist and in adjacent areas where they could find timber .
Eighth, it has cement where cement should be and lacking it where it should not be.

I will not research this now.
I will study it later.
Because such matters can be magnified.
And the topography of ancient America has changed so much that the topography of the Book of Mormon in B.C. is not clear.

One returning American missionary who served a full-time mission in Japan claims that the Book of Mormon took place in Japan.
The geography is also calculated and guessed at.
Thus, there may be an expansive interpretation.

[larsenb]

I answered this in great detail further up the thread. Further more, the so called narrow neck is not near as narrow as Great Lakes descriptions, along with all the other evidence. So where did they land? I believe they landed in modern day Florida for a variety of reasons. I can even do more but I don't want to wear out readers for the remaining month. What do I still have, you will see another thread on the latest D.N.A. evidence. You will learn something important there.

Yes, Florida, as the land of their first inheritance, i.e., where they first landed after their voyage from present day Oman. Problem with that is that several passages in the BofM don't square with that idea at all. This idea is one of the main force-fits employed by the Heartland modelers.

Yes, I will post on this so you can argue with it next week.

Excellent. And while you're at it, try to square what you think with all of the passages in the BofM describing/dealing with the west sea, the land of first inheritance and their juxtapositions to the land of Nephi, and Zarahemla, the main Bountiful in the new world, the land Desolation, and the narrow/small neck/pass/passage described as the place where the sea divides the land.

[kirtland r.m.]

Yes, Florida, as the land of their first inheritance, i.e., where they first landed after their voyage from present day Oman. Problem with that is that several passages in the BofM don't square with that idea at all. This idea is one of the main force-fits employed by the Heartland modelers.

Yes, I will post on this so you can argue with it next week.

Excellent. And while you're at it, try to square what you think with all of the passages in the BofM describing/dealing with the west sea, the land of first inheritance and their juxtapositions to the land of Nephi, and Zarahemla, the main Bountiful in the new world, the land Desolation, and the narrow/small neck/pass/passage described as the place where the sea divides the land.

You know it just never ends with you. I will post lot's more on geography in the coming weeks.

[kirtland r.m.]

In actuality, Joseph Smith never stated that the hill in New York that Moroni had placed a small portion of records, was the actual Hill Cumorah of the Nephites aka Hill Ramah of the Jaredites. And he never actually corrected Oliver Cowdery's assumption of it either. The "hill" in New York is definitely the one that Moroni trekked to, to leave a few & the U&T, breastplate, and such.

OK, here is one item from Verneil Simmons that led to the discovery of Hill Rabon. I sent this letter to a friend who eventually got to go on one of the trips to Rabon with Neil Steede. I sent my friend this in 2006 or 2007.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Randall,

When I was down in McAllen, Texas back in December 1987 visiting the Simmons (Neil & Dana), and Frank Frye, (actually was sent there by bus from a Patriarch in Austin) even though it was not told directly to me, it seemed to be hinted that this family was the one that "pinned" Hill Rabon as being Hill Cumorah (Nephites name)/Hill Ramah (Jaredites name). Verneil seems to confirm it. But I also note she speaks of Dana's experience one night at or on Rabon. It may be that this is the story (of Dana's experience & the family's experiences & of their research) which inspired Neil Steede's day & night experiences at Hill Rabon in April of 1972.

Below excerpted online from March 26, 2006
"3 Witnesses in the Restoration" (12pp. documentary of Verneil's, Mildred's, and Louise' testimonies)

===================================
My Testimony:
Verneil Simmons

Along with my two good friends, Mildred Smith and Louise Gregson, I make my record of the many years I have lived as a member of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

<snipped>

As a teenager, my deepest desire was to be an archaeologist— a desire that the Great Depression of the thirties made only a dream. College for me was out of the question. My family moved to Cameron, Missouri in 1936. There I met and married a young Church member, Wayne Simmons, who held the office of priest. Wayne’s family also had a church heritage going back five generations, to the building of the Kirtland Temple. He was born at old Far West and his father was the pastor of the small church, which still stands there today. We shared a mutual interest in the Book of Mormon as he was teaching that subject to the adult class in the Cameron Branch. The years following our marriage saw the birth of two of our sons, five war years spent in the Caribbean island of Aruba, a year in Costa Rica and nearly two years in Caracas, Venezuela.

My husband, Wayne, worked for Standard Oil, the Inter-American School Service and then became the director of the Cultural Center for the U.S. State Department in Venezuela.

These varied assignments gave us an opportunity to study Spanish and to delve into the culture and pre-history of much of Latin America. During these years I continued to spend hours studying various aspects of the Book of Mormon.

We had chosen to live in Latin America with our sons because of our conviction that the Church must eventually open missions to the Lamanites there. We thought that hope was fulfilled in 1950 when the General Conference named Wayne as the first Spanish speaking missionary to Latin America. Actually, it meant waiting years on the border in south Texas, with only vacation trips into Mexico for my archaeological research.

My years of study had convinced me that the lands described in the Book of Mormon could only be found in the area of southern Mexico, to El Salvador, an area called “Mesoamerica” by archaeologists. Therefore, Mormon’s Hill Cumorah had to be somewhere in southern Mexico. The search for that hill became a family quest. Studies of the ancient trade routes, as recorded by the Spaniards, led to exploration of an area new to us. Through a most unusual experience we found Cerro Rabon which fit all the requirements I had listed from the book itself. It was a great satisfaction to the family. In 1965 we were finally sent to Mexico City by the Church. Our older sons had married and only Dana, born in 1950, accompanied us. He got the archaeology degree I had wanted at the University of the Americas in Mexico. In 1965 the Church purchased a beautiful residence on Embassy Row, which had the promise of fulfilling all the needs of a center for missionary work in Latin America.

A congregation was developed with the help of a number of couples who came to Mexico for work or study. We provided a home there for many RLDS students who came to Mexico for language studies in Spanish, and for six years we were the Church guides to the museum and the archaeological ruins for the many saints who visited. Dana enjoyed sharing the story of his night on Cerro Rabón.

During the six years we spent in Mexico we came to understand that the leadership of the RLDS Church had no deep convictions about developing work in Latin America. We often discovered we were in opposition to the leadership of the Church when we urged more resources be given to the divinely appointed tasks of the Church. Instead of supporting the work to the Lamanites they were interested in secularizing the Church beliefs and programs. This was proven when in the mid 1970’s they sold the Church property in Mexico City, and wiped out the work there. We had been returned to the USA in 1970, first to serve in Minneapolis and later back to the border in Texas. I continued teaching Book of Mormon classes in districts, reunions, branches and study workshops.

Frequently, I was urged to put all the information into a book, which at that time I had never considered. I did believe that the promise of the coming forth of the original records still hidden in Cumorah South was of vital importance to the Church. Because of that conviction I yielded to my students and accordingly, Peoples Places and Prophecies was written, printed at the Herald House, and went on sale at the 1978 Conference when we were retired from Church appointment.

I consider the printing of this book no small miracle. The 1980 Conference brought an order from the Presidency to remove from the Church’s bookstores forced Louise Gregson, Thelona Stevens, Roy Weldon and myself to find other outlets for our Book of Mormon materials. Because of our conviction that we must continue to witness the truths of the Book of Mormon to the Church and the world we found ways to do it. I gave my book to Brother Raymond Treat, and the Zarahemla Research Foundation published three thousand hard bound copies of the book. It is now out of print.

But in this same period, the RLDS leadership used its publications to raise doubts about the validity of the Book of Mormon as a historical document.

<snipped>

===================================

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I might add that in this one, Verneil left out further details. But she did take note that Dana must have had some sort of experience at Hill Rabon. I forget if Dana or Neil shared a brief about this "experience", but I think it had to do with an encounter with one of the 3 Nephites. And Dana, being a college classmate of Neil Steede, he shared the information with him, not realizing the impact of that. Neil went down to have an experience too. But then he brought out Hill Rabon into the spotlight, something the Simmons were hoping to slowly leak out. So I sensed a bit of tension here or hurt feelings. If you will notice that Verneil uses a term- Hill Cumorah South. They decided since so many were used to calling the hill in New York- Cumorah, that they had to distinguish between the two, thus Hill Cumorah North (in NY) & Cumorah South (Hill Rabon/Ramah of the BoM). If you Google the portion noted upfront, it may still be online. Also remember that any time RLDS/CoC list BoM references, the chapters & verses are not the same with LDS.

Let's see if I can find the other snip. OK, got it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Further Testimony of Verneil Simmons from 2011 (I think):
<http://www.thekeystone.org/news.html>

News
Book of Mormon Symposium

Verneil Simmons shared her testimony Saturday evening, May 29 (2011 I think), describing her life-long quest for the location of the ancient Hill Cumorah where Mormon placed the sacred records. About 125 people attended the event, a beginning in our promotion of fellowship among Book of Mormon believers in the church.

The official map published by the church in 1894 placed the hill in Western New York, the place where Joseph obtained the plates. That map was the winner of a church wide contest and was not based on any archeaological evidence. Even simple comparisons with the descriptions of the hill portrayed in the Book of Mormon and the hill in New York show inconsistencies.

Verneil’s quest began in 1932 with the visit of a stranger, whom her parents believed was one of the three Nephites. It required an intense study of the geography as recorded in the Book of Mormon and years of research in Mexico. Her entire family became involved.

One significant clue was discovered by her son Gareth in the mid-sixties. He found a 1933 report from a young student detailing the legends [in their Ethnography] at Jalapa de Diaz, a village at the base of Hill Rabon in Southern Mexico. One of them described three men who yearly came to the mountain and announced that they are guardians of the records of an ancient culture.

A comparison of Hill Rabon with the requirements that the Book of Mormon’s geography placed on it, as well as a trip by part of her family to the mountain’s base, confirmed it as the long-sought location.

Verneil’s testimony ended with account of another mysterious stranger who approved her husband’s intentions to share a photo of the hill with the saints for the first time. This happened in 1972. Verneil’s husband, Wayne, tried to meet the stranger after the meeting, but he had disappeared. No one present had seen him come or go. Neither did any know who he was. Wayne believed that he was one of the three Nephites, putting the confirming seal and approval on Verneil’s life-long quest.

Verneil said that the night’s testimony was the first time that this valiant latter-day saint has shared all the high points in the history of her remarkable discovery.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I might add that in this Ethnography of the 3 men who appeared in the village next to Hill Rabon did so in the first week of April, which may be linked to the church due to becoming a church on April 6th, 1830. And they state they are going to check on the "National Treasury". That term seems to correspond with Hurtak's "Keys of Enoch", of which was noted that the "Treasures of Heaven" are stored there at/in Cerro Rabon.


My trip to McAllen, Texas was back in December 1987. From what I understand, Frank is now living on Rabon or in that area, in the state of Oaxaca, Mexico. Here is a clip I found online.

++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++
http://www.cerro-rabon.org/2001/

http://warrenb234.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html
Frank Frye's class on Book of Mormon geography:

Frank said that a new set of 3 DVD’s will soon be available on Book of Mormon: Quetzalcoatl - Evidence that Jesus Christ ministered in America.

Eight Pillars of Evidence that supports the divinity of the Book of Mormon.

The Geography of the Book of Mormon

They will be available soon and can be purchased through the Mexican Ministry Support Group or through the Conference Office (CRE).


Notes from Frank’s class:
Where is Hill Cumorah?
Joseph Smith never said or wrote that that the hill in New York State was called Hill Cumorah. Oliver Cowdery made a false leap in a letter to think that the plates hidden by Mormon was the same hill in that the plates were found on in New York. (see Mormon RLDS/CoC 3:8) [LDS Mormon 6:6]

Mormon gave his son Moroni a “few plates” which were an abridgement of the plates of Nephi. This “abridgement” by Mormon is what what was hidden on the hill in New York.

The hill in New York is only 140 feet high. There are 10,000 other similar hills in New York. There is nothing outstanding about the hill where the plates were found. It is not a hill that Mormon would have chosen for the final battle as it is easily surrounded.

There are 10 requirements needed to identify Hill Cumorah:
It must be a prominent feature.
It had an excellent view to the south.
It was of strategic (military) value. (Mormon RLDS 3:5) [LDS Mormon 6:4]
It protected an area where many people could live for some time with ample water. (Mormon described it as a land of many waters).
It must be located in the “land of desolation.”
It must be near the “narrow neck of land.”
It must be on an important trade route. (Frank mentioned that Verneil Simmons found in her studies that there was a well established trade in salt which follows the river that passes by Hill Rabon (Cumorah) in Mexico).
It must have both an older and a younger culture in the area. (ie. Nephite and Olmec cultures.)
It must have caves in the same area. (The hill in New York area is not known for caves)
It must be on the eastern coast.
Does Cerro Rabon in Mexico fit these requirements? Yes.
Cerro Rabon is over 5000 feet high with a river running nearby and from its hillside you can see for miles to the south. It is of strategic military value. It has many caves. There is evidence of two major cultures having lived in this area, etc.
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There has been an elaborate amount of underground caves that are being explored by current explorers. It is even possible they may link from Hill Shem (Shim) to Cumorah (Rabon). Somewhere I have the research map by ZRF or FRAA which shows the location of Hill Shim, but I would have to search for it. But as I noted earlier, the cliff wall side (high side) basically faces south. As to Hill Vigia, I would have to look back in Palmer's book to see if it mentions heighth.

I guess we'll pause here for now.

Lynn, Joseph Smith and every early church leader all called the Hill Cumorah, THE HILL CUMORAH! Were in the sam hill do these things just keep coming from. Here is a post I did on this subject last month, you may not have seen it.


“The hill Cumorah, with the surrounding vicinity, is distinguished as the great battlefield on which, and near which, two powerful nations were concentrated with all their forces. Men, women and children fought till hundreds of thousands on both sides were hewn down, and left to molder upon the ground… These new plates were given to Moroni to finish the history. And all the ancient plates, Mormon deposited in Cumorah, about three hundred and eighty-four years after Christ. When Moroni, about thirty-six years after, made the deposit of the book entrusted to him, he was, without doubt, inspired to select a department of the hill separate from the great depository of the numerous volumes hid up by his father. The particular place in the hill where Moroni secreted the book, was revealed, by the angel, to the prophet Joseph Smith, to whom the volume was delivered in September, A.D. 1827. But the grand repository of all the numerous records of the ancient nations of the western continent, was located in another department of the hill, and it’s contents under the charge of holy angels, until the day should come for them to be transferred to the sacred temple of Zion.” 1866 Orson Pratt Millennial Star (28 (27): 417)

About 10 years ago a friend of mine who worked in the Church Video department was on assignment at the Hill Cumorah for a project the Church was working on.

The west side of Hill Cumorah was being prepared for setting up the stage for the Hill Cumorah Pageant. A missionary couple had some guests on a tour showing them around this west facing hill Cumorah. After a time one of the families on tour noticed one of their children was missing from the group. A search for this young man began. After searching for a time the missionary couple and their guest family heard a yell for help several times. They came upon the missing young man who had fallen through an opening in the top west side of the Hill Cumorah.

The hole seemed to be 12-15 feet deep. Someone ran to their car and brought back some jumper cables to assist in bringing the young man up out of the hole.

After the rescue, my video friend was there with the others as they all looked at the hole which was very dark and hard to see anything. (See Photo left)

My friend put his camera with its light down the hole and snapped a few pictures. He was very surprised to see the appearance of a cave that was about 15 feet square. (Explained below). On the sides of the walls were stacked stones and there were some stones attached seemingly as shelves coming out from the stacked stones, which would mean the cave would have been man made. The cave was empty
What most people know about the hill Cumorah is that it is classified as a drumlin. “A drumlin, from the Irish word droimnín (“littlest ridge”), first recorded in 1833, and in the classical sense is an elongated hill in the shape of an inverted spoon or half-buried egg formed by glacial ice acting on underlying unconsolidated till or ground moraine.” Source: Wikipedia. Drumlins are created by a glacial drift with moving dirt and debris and won’t leave spaces for caves as other hills and mountains would.


Enlarge (This steel plate was covered by dirt)
After discovering this cave, the Church had a contractor notified about fixing the hole. They came out to the location and put a large thick piece of steel over the hole, (see photo left) and then covered it with dirt. I have some friends who have since been back with detectors and can easily locate the location of where the piece of steel was buried.

As you read in Mormon 4:23, “And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord.” This would mean the plates from Shim were hid up in a place close to Hill Cumorah.

In one of Jonathan Nevilles blogs he speaks about how the Cave of all the Plates including the Sword of Laban and Liahona were taken from the Cave at Cumorah and probably taken back to the Hill Shim to hide them from people today. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/a-hole-in-cumorah/



David Whitmer, Deseret Evening News, 16 August 1878
In an interview with P. Wilhelm Poulson, David Whitmer gave another account of the cave:
[Poulson]: Where are the plates now?
[Whitmer]: In a cave, where the angel has hidden them up till the time arrives when the plates, which are sealed, shall be translated. God will yet raise up a mighty one, who shall do his work till it is finished and Jesus comes again.
[Poulson]: Where is that cave?
[Whitmer]: In the State of New York.
[Poulson]: In the Hill of Comorah?
[Whitmer]: No, but not far away from that place.
From JOURNAL OF BOOK OF MORMON STUDIES 7-31-2004 Cumorah’s Cave by Cameron J. Packer Volume 13 Number 1 Article 6 Page 55

In his book Reminiscences of Joseph, the Prophet, and the Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon,
Edward Stevenson relates an interview with David Whitmer in 1877:
It was likewise stated to me by David Whitmer in the year 1877 that Oliver Cowdery told him that the Prophet Joseph and himself had seen this room and that it was filled with treasure, and on a table therein were the breastplate and the sword of Laban, as well as the portion of gold plates not yet translated, and that these plates were bound by three small gold rings, and would also be translated, as was the first portion in the days of Joseph. When they are translated much useful information will be brought to light. But till that day arrives, no Rochester adventurers shall ever see them or the treasures..."

In other places on thishttps://josephsmithfoundation.org/hill-cumorah-cave/ forhttps://josephsmithfoundation.org/hill-cumorah-cave/um, I have posted more on this, including the stone box containing the Book of Mormon Plates, what happened to it, and that an area minister later said when passing by the pathway beside the Hill C. not many years later, you could see the spot where the plates had been recovered. There are also materials within a mile or two of Cumorah that could have been used to make the stone box by Moroni all those centuries ago. All very interesting to the saints in our day.

Here is a link to many more early comments by church leaders on this subject. https://josephsmithfoundation.org/hill-cumorah-cave//
From what I have heard, Joseph didn't call the hill where he found the plates the Hill Cumorah. I haven't spent the time to verify that but I thought I would put it out there.
harakim, “The name Cumorah came into “common circulation [amongst Latter-day Saints] no earlier than the mid-1830s. The first documented person to identify the drumlin hill in Manchester, New York where Joseph Smith received the plates with the hill Cumorah appears to have been William W. Phelps in 1833.” William W. Phelps, “The Book of Mormon,” The Evening and the Morning Star 1, no. 8 (January 1833): 57.

Phelps’s identification was later followed by Oliver Cowdery in 1835.5 Probably due to the popularity and influence of these two early leaders’ writings, the identification of the hill in New York as the same hill Cumorah mentioned by Mormon in Book of Mormon became commonplace amongst early Latter-day Saints.6

As far as can be determined, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself only associated the hill in New York with the Cumorah in the Book of Mormon towards the end of his life. In an 1842 epistle the Prophet spoke of hearing “Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed” (Doctrine and Covenants 128:20).7 Before then, Joseph left the name of the New York hill where Moroni gave him the plates unnamed in his accounts of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.8 Whether the Prophet arrived at this conclusion about the location of Cumorah by revelation, by conforming to usage that had become common among the early members of the Church about Book of Mormon geography, or in some other way is historically unknown.9

In the decades after Joseph Smith’s death, other prominent early Latter-day Saints, including Lucy Mack Smith,10 Parley P. Pratt,11 and David Whitmer,12 recounted earlier incidents in which the New York hill was identified as Cumorah by the angel Moroni and by Joseph Smith. Since these statements are somewhat late recollections, coming after the identity of Cumorah as a hill near Palmyra, New York, had become widespread, they should be used cautiously.13 https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/ ... 10_aoi58wq

I have mountains more of this stuff if anyone really needs to see it.

[larsenb]

Yes, I will post on this so you can argue with it next week.

Excellent. And while you're at it, try to square what you think with all of the passages in the BofM describing/dealing with the west sea, the land of first inheritance and their juxtapositions to the land of Nephi, and Zarahemla, the main Bountiful in the new world, the land Desolation, and the narrow/small neck/pass/passage described as the place where the sea divides the land.

You know it just never ends with you. I will post lot's more on geography in the coming weeks.

I'm only responding to you. So who does "it never end with"? You seem to be very wedded to the Heartland Model, yet the bottom line for what you post is a methodology that forces or ignores Book of Mormon passages you think, or don't think, support your hypothesis.

I have a certain aversion to such cock-sure presentations, those that never really respond to any counter arguments. It's using this forum mainly as an advertising place for your views on the matter.

But when advertising your particular views on a public forum, why are you surprised when you get opposition. For me, this board is a place to hear/learn new things and discuss their relative merits. Maybe its my science background.

I don't like to see this board as a launching pad for what I see as a wrong-headed methodology.