Alma 22:32 No location in Central America is nearly surrounded by water.

[kirtland r.m.]

I have one person on this forum who continues to work to shred the Book of Mormon heartland model. That's fine, yet their continued insistence that it's description when matched with western hemisphere geography is completely false is oh so wrong. I have seen certain B.Y.U. Professors with this same argument as well and they are wrong. I would say, get your head out of the 1970's and get with the continuing research (although I have some heartland info. from James E. Talmage which is rockingly awesome and I will post it later). This ongoing battle with one forum member drives about half of my geography posting so bear with me, here is yet further information showing they have been wrong. I will put future information in the next two weeks on this thread. If it bores you, you can know in advance and avoid it.

I have posted over and over on this subject this year. What I will post now is mostly new and things I have not posted in the past. Let's start with what may be small but what is evidently vital in the meso. theory. First, a geography lesson on two competing theories. There is ONLY ONE “Narrow Neck of Land” in the entire Book of Mormon. Ether 10:20. Also. nowhere in the Book of Ether does Moroni mention Nephite or Lamanite locations, except that the Jaredite hill Ramah is the same hill where Mormon hid the records (Ether 15:11). In the first verse of the first chapter, Moroni explained the territory addressed in the Book of Ether: “And now I, Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord upon the face of this north country.”

Despite its solitary appearance in Ether, many commentators have considered the “narrow neck of land” to be a defining feature of both Nephite and Jaredite lands. They think the verse in Ether refers to the same feature as a verse in Alma 22:32, which says “thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.” That interpretation is a mistake. Besides the difference in terminology (narrow does not mean small), the context and frame of reference of the two passages are entirely different, and they were written by different authors hundreds of years apart.

Notice that the small neck of land is an exception to the two lands being “nearly surrounded by water.” No location in Central America is nearly surrounded by water because at both ends there are enormous continents. In North America, both the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi are nearly surrounded by water, with a small neck of land between them, as I’ll explain.

Furthermore, the narrow neck of land in Mesoamerica is over 100 miles wide. Many people have observed the incongruity of describing such a wide stretch of difficult terrain as “narrow.” A feature this wide might appear “narrow” from a satellite, but to someone on the ground, this Isthmus is as wide as the adjacent land.

When we read the text, we need to put ourselves in the place of the authors, in their time and place. They didn’t have satellites. They described their territory as they saw it, from the surface. Perspective is key.

NARROW NECK- Where Hagoth built his ships. On Lake Michigan lower east side following Lake Michigan’s coast along the St Lawrence Continental Divide to the St. Joe River. Anciently the Grand Kankakee Marsh extended south of Lake Michigan and the Great Black Swamp extended west of Lake Erie. The neck running E/W was 30 miles between Warsaw, IN and Merriam IN. Alma 63:5

NARROW NECK OF LAND- Lake Ontario divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie divides the land at Buffalo, NY, and at Toledo, OH. In Central America the ”land divides the sea”. (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether. Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide.

SMALL NECK OF LAND- Allegheny, Susquehanna, and Genesee head-river gaps. (Triple Divide) Only 6 miles between each of these three river heads, where the two Continental Divides meet. (St Lawrence and Eastern Divide) Anciently this location was called the Forbidden Path, and was a strategic defensive location, hunting area, and buffer zone for the Native Americans to protect their south land. “Leading directly into the heart of the central New York Iroquois heartland, the Forbidden Path stood at a strategic transportation break linking river systems ultimately flowing into Chesapeake Bay, the Great Lakes, and the Ohio Valley.” (Journey on the Forbidden Path: Volume 89, Part 2 By Christian Frederick Post, John Hays) Alma 22:32. This is the gate of the Narrow Strip of Wilderness and the place which is the “Nearly” in “nearly surrounded by water.” Don’t confuse this location with the more well known, “Narrow Neck of Land.” (3 “NECKS” see # 3,4,5).

There are 3 unique mentions in the Book of Mormon about NECKS!

NARROW NECK OF LAND Ether 10:20
NARROW NECK Alma 63:5
SMALL NECK OF LAND Alma 22:32
These three unique mentions of NECK are all in different locations in North America. THE NARROW NECK OF LAND is defined below:

Lake Ontario (a sea) divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie (s sea) divides the land at Buffalo, NY.

In Central America, the ”land divides the sea”. (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) which is opposite of what the scripture says about the “sea divides” the land.

Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether. Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide and in Central America it is 140 miles, which doesn’t sound very narrow to me. In the Book of Mormon the Narrow Neck of Land is only described in the Book of Ether, so the Jaredites used it, not the Nephites. There is archaeological verification at the Niagara Peninsula that dates from 800 BC to 3000 BC which is the time of the Jaredites.
All the heavy lifting on this post was done by bookofmormonevidence.org, much thanks to them.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-on ... k-of-land/

That's a good start for now, have a great week!

[mudflap]

it's not worth a fight over stuff nobody knows for sure. I don't believe in the heartland model, but you post so much other good stuff that I'm gonna let this stuff slide...

[Bronco73idi]

it's not worth a fight over stuff nobody knows for sure. I don't believe in the heartland model, but you post so much other good stuff that I'm gonna let this stuff slide...

I used to believe in the Central America model, now I don’t.

It isn’t because the heartland model fits so eloquently, it’s because Central America ruins are an abomination per the mosaic law.

It’s also because Joseph Smith mentioned the territories to the north east and to the west from their point of view, as Lamanite’s land.

I do not believe anyone that wasn’t alive and served alongside Joseph Smith as very credible in this debate. Are they even led by the Holy Ghost? Or is Jeremiah 23 correct when he said ;

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

[hideki]

nearly surrounded by water

In the Japanese Book of Mormon, "water" is "sea".
Is this a mistranslation?

[kirtland r.m.]

nearly surrounded by water

In the Japanese Book of Mormon, "water" is "sea".
Is this a mistranslation?

In the case you are talking about I think so. I think it is good. As Nephi planned and prepared to build a ship, his brothers mocked him, saying he was a fool for thinking he could “build a ship … [and] cross these great waters” (1 Nephi 17:17).

[larsenb]

I have one person on this forum who continues to work to shred the Book of Mormon heartland model. . . . . .

I'm scratching my head wondering who on earth that might be

Obviously, not myself . . . . But I do confess, I'm very tempted to analyze and critique your assertions about BofM passages regarding the narrow/small neck, etc., and how they allegedly fit the Great Lakes region. But far be it from me to want to "shred the Book of Mormon Heartland model . . . .

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

I have one person on this forum who continues to work to shred the Book of Mormon heartland model. That's fine, yet their continued insistence that it's description when matched with western hemisphere geography is completely false is oh so wrong. I have seen certain B.Y.U. Professors with this same argument as well and they are wrong. I would say, get your head out of the 1970's and get with the continuing research (although I have some heartland info. from James E. Talmage which is rockingly awesome and I will post it later). This ongoing battle with one forum member drives about half of my geography posting so bear with me, here is yet further information showing they have been wrong. I will put future information in the next two weeks on this thread. If it bores you, you can know in advance and avoid it.

I have posted over and over on this subject this year. What I will post now is mostly new and things I have not posted in the past. Let's start with what may be small but what is evidently vital in the meso. theory. First, a geography lesson on two competing theories. There is ONLY ONE “Narrow Neck of Land” in the entire Book of Mormon. Ether 10:20. Also. nowhere in the Book of Ether does Moroni mention Nephite or Lamanite locations, except that the Jaredite hill Ramah is the same hill where Mormon hid the records (Ether 15:11). In the first verse of the first chapter, Moroni explained the territory addressed in the Book of Ether: “And now I, Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord upon the face of this north country.”

Despite its solitary appearance in Ether, many commentators have considered the “narrow neck of land” to be a defining feature of both Nephite and Jaredite lands. They think the verse in Ether refers to the same feature as a verse in Alma 22:32, which says “thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.” That interpretation is a mistake. Besides the difference in terminology (narrow does not mean small), the context and frame of reference of the two passages are entirely different, and they were written by different authors hundreds of years apart.

Notice that the small neck of land is an exception to the two lands being “nearly surrounded by water.” No location in Central America is nearly surrounded by water because at both ends there are enormous continents. In North America, both the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi are nearly surrounded by water, with a small neck of land between them, as I’ll explain.

Furthermore, the narrow neck of land in Mesoamerica is over 100 miles wide. Many people have observed the incongruity of describing such a wide stretch of difficult terrain as “narrow.” A feature this wide might appear “narrow” from a satellite, but to someone on the ground, this Isthmus is as wide as the adjacent land.

When we read the text, we need to put ourselves in the place of the authors, in their time and place. They didn’t have satellites. They described their territory as they saw it, from the surface. Perspective is key.

NARROW NECK- Where Hagoth built his ships. On Lake Michigan lower east side following Lake Michigan’s coast along the St Lawrence Continental Divide to the St. Joe River. Anciently the Grand Kankakee Marsh extended south of Lake Michigan and the Great Black Swamp extended west of Lake Erie. The neck running E/W was 30 miles between Warsaw, IN and Merriam IN. Alma 63:5

NARROW NECK OF LAND- Lake Ontario divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie divides the land at Buffalo, NY, and at Toledo, OH. In Central America the ”land divides the sea”. (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether. Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide.

SMALL NECK OF LAND- Allegheny, Susquehanna, and Genesee head-river gaps. (Triple Divide) Only 6 miles between each of these three river heads, where the two Continental Divides meet. (St Lawrence and Eastern Divide) Anciently this location was called the Forbidden Path, and was a strategic defensive location, hunting area, and buffer zone for the Native Americans to protect their south land. “Leading directly into the heart of the central New York Iroquois heartland, the Forbidden Path stood at a strategic transportation break linking river systems ultimately flowing into Chesapeake Bay, the Great Lakes, and the Ohio Valley.” (Journey on the Forbidden Path: Volume 89, Part 2 By Christian Frederick Post, John Hays) Alma 22:32. This is the gate of the Narrow Strip of Wilderness and the place which is the “Nearly” in “nearly surrounded by water.” Don’t confuse this location with the more well known, “Narrow Neck of Land.” (3 “NECKS” see # 3,4,5).

There are 3 unique mentions in the Book of Mormon about NECKS!

NARROW NECK OF LAND Ether 10:20
NARROW NECK Alma 63:5
SMALL NECK OF LAND Alma 22:32
These three unique mentions of NECK are all in different locations in North America. THE NARROW NECK OF LAND is defined below:

Lake Ontario (a sea) divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie (s sea) divides the land at Buffalo, NY.

In Central America, the ”land divides the sea”. (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) which is opposite of what the scripture says about the “sea divides” the land.

Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether. Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide and in Central America it is 140 miles, which doesn’t sound very narrow to me. In the Book of Mormon the Narrow Neck of Land is only described in the Book of Ether, so the Jaredites used it, not the Nephites. There is archaeological verification at the Niagara Peninsula that dates from 800 BC to 3000 BC which is the time of the Jaredites.
All the heavy lifting on this post was done by bookofmormonevidence.org, much thanks to them.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-on ... k-of-land/

That's a good start for now, have a great week!

From the gulf of teutanapec to south east Guatemala. Nearly surrounded by water Pacific Ocean and Gulf of Mexico

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

File of teutanapec in southern Mexico is a Narrow neck of land between the Pacific Ocean and the Gulf of Mexico at 72 miles across. A warrior runner messenger could easily run that distance in a day or is he was a new messenger in a days and a half

[MikeMaillet]

The topic in question is not one I have given much thought but the fact that the Book of Mormon was found in Palmyra, N.Y. is a good place to start, I think. Also, I have been reading more Native American material and it is amazing how much the topic of a white God shows up.

The Book of Mormon is the story of Hebrew people leaving Jerusalem and ending up on a Promised Land and establishing Zion, if only for a brief period. The land and its promise has not gone away and it will be in the heart of America, after it has been laid to waste, that the New Jerusalem will be built and where the Remnant Israelites will be gathered; their original Promised Land.

I'm good with that.

Christ said He had many sheep not of "this fold". I have often wondered about the Saviour visiting other peoples in order to establish His covenant. The people of South America are also God's people and why should we assume that He has not walked amongst their ancestors as well?

Mike

[LDS Physician]

It certainly can't be Central America ... this is a false theory that needs to be abandoned.

Christ came to "this land" and prophesied to the people: “Behold, now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the House of Israel. . . . And the Father hath commanded me that I should give you this land for your inheritance. . . . And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem.” 3 Nephi 20:10, 14, 22. You're not understanding what he's saying when you think he was standing in Central America saying that the New Jerusalem would be in "this land" when we know exactly where New Jerusalem will be: Missouri.

[larsenb]

It certainly can't be Central America ... this is a false theory that needs to be abandoned.

Christ came to "this land" and prophesied to the people: “Behold, now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the House of Israel. . . . And the Father hath commanded me that I should give you this land for your inheritance. . . . And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem.” 3 Nephi 20:10, 14, 22. You're not understanding what he's saying when you think he was standing in Central America saying that the New Jerusalem would be in "this land" when we know exactly where New Jerusalem will be: Missouri.

Depends on how broad you define "this land" to be.

Right away, there are problems with your interpretation, because: New Jerusalem refers to a city, not an entire country.

[kirtland r.m.]

I have one person on this forum who continues to work to shred the Book of Mormon heartland model. That's fine, yet their continued insistence that it's description when matched with western hemisphere geography is completely false is oh so wrong. I have seen certain B.Y.U. Professors with this same argument as well and they are wrong. I would say, get your head out of the 1970's and get with the continuing research (although I have some heartland info. from James E. Talmage which is rockingly awesome and I will post it later). This ongoing battle with one forum member drives about half of my geography posting so bear with me, here is yet further information showing they have been wrong. I will put future information in the next two weeks on this thread. If it bores you, you can know in advance and avoid it.

I have posted over and over on this subject this year. What I will post now is mostly new and things I have not posted in the past. Let's start with what may be small but what is evidently vital in the meso. theory. First, a geography lesson on two competing theories. There is ONLY ONE “Narrow Neck of Land” in the entire Book of Mormon. Ether 10:20. Also. nowhere in the Book of Ether does Moroni mention Nephite or Lamanite locations, except that the Jaredite hill Ramah is the same hill where Mormon hid the records (Ether 15:11). In the first verse of the first chapter, Moroni explained the territory addressed in the Book of Ether: “And now I, Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord upon the face of this north country.”

Despite its solitary appearance in Ether, many commentators have considered the “narrow neck of land” to be a defining feature of both Nephite and Jaredite lands. They think the verse in Ether refers to the same feature as a verse in Alma 22:32, which says “thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.” That interpretation is a mistake. Besides the difference in terminology (narrow does not mean small), the context and frame of reference of the two passages are entirely different, and they were written by different authors hundreds of years apart.

Notice that the small neck of land is an exception to the two lands being “nearly surrounded by water.” No location in Central America is nearly surrounded by water because at both ends there are enormous continents. In North America, both the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi are nearly surrounded by water, with a small neck of land between them, as I’ll explain.

Furthermore, the narrow neck of land in Mesoamerica is over 100 miles wide. Many people have observed the incongruity of describing such a wide stretch of difficult terrain as “narrow.” A feature this wide might appear “narrow” from a satellite, but to someone on the ground, this Isthmus is as wide as the adjacent land.

When we read the text, we need to put ourselves in the place of the authors, in their time and place. They didn’t have satellites. They described their territory as they saw it, from the surface. Perspective is key.

NARROW NECK- Where Hagoth built his ships. On Lake Michigan lower east side following Lake Michigan’s coast along the St Lawrence Continental Divide to the St. Joe River. Anciently the Grand Kankakee Marsh extended south of Lake Michigan and the Great Black Swamp extended west of Lake Erie. The neck running E/W was 30 miles between Warsaw, IN and Merriam IN. Alma 63:5

NARROW NECK OF LAND- Lake Ontario divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie divides the land at Buffalo, NY, and at Toledo, OH. In Central America the ”land divides the sea”. (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether. Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide.

SMALL NECK OF LAND- Allegheny, Susquehanna, and Genesee head-river gaps. (Triple Divide) Only 6 miles between each of these three river heads, where the two Continental Divides meet. (St Lawrence and Eastern Divide) Anciently this location was called the Forbidden Path, and was a strategic defensive location, hunting area, and buffer zone for the Native Americans to protect their south land. “Leading directly into the heart of the central New York Iroquois heartland, the Forbidden Path stood at a strategic transportation break linking river systems ultimately flowing into Chesapeake Bay, the Great Lakes, and the Ohio Valley.” (Journey on the Forbidden Path: Volume 89, Part 2 By Christian Frederick Post, John Hays) Alma 22:32. This is the gate of the Narrow Strip of Wilderness and the place which is the “Nearly” in “nearly surrounded by water.” Don’t confuse this location with the more well known, “Narrow Neck of Land.” (3 “NECKS” see # 3,4,5).

There are 3 unique mentions in the Book of Mormon about NECKS!

NARROW NECK OF LAND Ether 10:20
NARROW NECK Alma 63:5
SMALL NECK OF LAND Alma 22:32
These three unique mentions of NECK are all in different locations in North America. THE NARROW NECK OF LAND is defined below:

Lake Ontario (a sea) divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie (s sea) divides the land at Buffalo, NY.

In Central America, the ”land divides the sea”. (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) which is opposite of what the scripture says about the “sea divides” the land.

Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether. Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide and in Central America it is 140 miles, which doesn’t sound very narrow to me. In the Book of Mormon the Narrow Neck of Land is only described in the Book of Ether, so the Jaredites used it, not the Nephites. There is archaeological verification at the Niagara Peninsula that dates from 800 BC to 3000 BC which is the time of the Jaredites.
All the heavy lifting on this post was done by bookofmormonevidence.org, much thanks to them.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-on ... k-of-land/

That's a good start for now, have a great week!

From the gulf of teutanapec to south east Guatemala. Nearly surrounded by water Pacific Ocean and Gulf of Mexico

100 miles or so at the most narrow, not buying it. That and many more reasons.

Joseph Fielding Smith said about the theory of Book of Mormon Geography in Mesoamerica; “Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Edited by Bruce McConkie, Vol. 3 [1999] 232–243.

“From the time Father Bosley located near Avon, he found and plowed up axes and irons, and had sufficient to make his mill irons, and had always abundance of iron on hand without purchasing. In the towns of Bloomfield, Victor, Manchester, and in the regions round about, there were hills upon the tops of which were entrenchments and fortifications, and in them were human bones, axes, tomahawks, points of arrows, beads and pipes, which were frequently found; and it was a common occurrence in the country to plow up axes, which I have done many times myself.

I have visited the fortifications on the tops of those hills frequently, and the one near Bloomfield I have crossed hundreds of times, which is on the bluff of Honeyoye River, at the outlet of Honeyoye Lake. In that region there are many small deep lakes, and in some of them the bottom has never been found. Fish abound in them. The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it. In the State of New York, probably there are hundreds of these fortifications which are now visible, and I have seen them in many other parts of the United States. Readers of the Book of Mormon will remember that in this very region, according to that sacred record, the final battles were fought between the Nephites and Lamanites. At the hill Cumorah, the Nephites made their last stand prior to their utter extermination, A. D., 385. Thus was Heber preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, above the graves of the ancients of Israel, whose records with the fullness of that Gospel, and the relics of their prowess and civilization, were now whispering from the dust.” Life of Heber C. Kimball by Orson F. Whitney Mounds at Cumorah

“We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property. When we went up there and looked around, we felt that we were standing on holy ground. The brethren located, as near as they thought was possible, the place from which the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken by the Prophet. We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill. Evidence of the great battles that have been fought there in days gone by are manifest in the numerous spear and arrow-heads that have been found by farmers while plowing in that neighborhood. We were fortunate enough to obtain a few of the arrowheads.” (George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, Third Day—Morning Session p. 56)

“Outside the farmhouse Elder Taylor and myself noted several bushel baskets filled with arrow heads and I asked Mrs. Samson (local resident) what they were. She said they had just begun to plow up the hill Cumorah and around the hill, to plant some crops, and they turned up these arrow heads by the basket full” (J. M. Sjodahl, An Introduction to the Study of the Book of Mormon , p.7)

[AZRob]

I get most of my pro-Heartland info from kirtland r.m.(mostly because he just won't stop here). I get my pro-MesoAmerica info from Captain Kirk at https://bookofmormonresources.blogspot.com/.

I'm not certain on either model, but I would pay to see the two of them in an intellectual cage match to the death.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

I get most of my pro-Heartland info from kirtland r.m.(mostly because he just won't stop here). I get my pro-MesoAmerica info from Captain Kirk at https://bookofmormonresources.blogspot.com/.

I'm not certain on either model, but I would pay to see the two of them in an intellectual cage match to the death.

LOL

[larsenb]

I get most of my pro-Heartland info from kirtland r.m.(mostly because he just won't stop here). I get my pro-MesoAmerica info from Captain Kirk at https://bookofmormonresources.blogspot.com/.

I'm not certain on either model, but I would pay to see the two of them in an intellectual cage match to the death.

Probably Kirk Magleby.

I don't think the Kirt would win against the Kirk, personally.

[Sunain]

I always thought that the area of the Book of Mormon was the Great Lakes area. The Hill Cumorah, the Gold Plates, the body of Lamanite chieftain-warrior Zelph, are all geographical references.

[blitzinstripes]

Geography aside, the communist dictatorships of central and south America simply do not fit the scriptural prophecies of what constituted the "promised land". Only the USA fits that narrative. 1 Nephi 13 makes very specific prophecies on the settlement of the USA, the American revolution, and the scattering of the Laminates. Viewed through the lens of such prophecies, (restoration, JS, rise of the church) you can rule out Mexico and South America.

Much of the architecture of Central and South America seems more closely tied to southeast Asia. The Nephites appear to have worked more commonly with earth and timbers rather than massive stone structures.

[BroJones]

it's not worth a fight over stuff nobody knows for sure. I don't believe in the heartland model, but you post so much other good stuff that I'm gonna let this stuff slide...

I used to believe in the Central America model, now I don’t.

It isn’t because the heartland model fits so eloquently, it’s because Central America ruins are an abomination per the mosaic law.

It’s also because Joseph Smith mentioned the territories to the north east and to the west from their point of view, as Lamanite’s land.

[snip[]

Agreed!

Now let's summarize the evidence that LAMBS existed in North America during 600 BC-33 AD, shall we?
So that the Mosaic Law could be practiced. I would like to see this evidence!

[kirtland r.m.]

it's not worth a fight over stuff nobody knows for sure. I don't believe in the heartland model, but you post so much other good stuff that I'm gonna let this stuff slide...

I used to believe in the Central America model, now I don’t.

It isn’t because the heartland model fits so eloquently, it’s because Central America ruins are an abomination per the mosaic law.

It’s also because Joseph Smith mentioned the territories to the north east and to the west from their point of view, as Lamanite’s land.

[snip[]

Agreed!

Now let's summarize the evidence that LAMBS existed in North America during 600 BC-33 AD, shall we?
So that the Mosaic Law could be practiced. I would like to see this evidence!

"Based on the latest archeological findings, it can now be irrefutably shown that the Heartland of North America is the only location in the Western Hemisphere where all ten of the essential items were found anciently including; lambs, oxen, goats, doves, barley, wheat, grapes, and altars made of stacked, unhewn stones. These aforementioned items have not been found in the archaeological record of the pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica.” Amberli Nelson MBA Hebrew/Jewish Symbology Expert

What do Mesoamericanists believe about geography, horses, and the Law of Moses. This law could not be accomplished without animals and grains as described in the Book of Mormon which have not been found in Mesoamerica, but only in the Heartland.

For more on this subject, see Law of Moses and Horses- Not in Mesoamerica!https://bookofmormonevidence.org/law-of ... soamerica/

While we are at it, let's go all the way. The Book of Mormon indicates that the elephant was known to the peoples mentioned in its text. Ether's account of the Jaredites mentions the elephant during the reign of the house of Emer, a descendant of Jared (Ether 9:19). evidencecentral.org

This last part is all about a mention in the Book of Mormon and elephants. Anti church sources will mock the church for this idea, and will say there is absolutely no evidence. As usual, they are wrong. And where is this evidence showing up? Ever hear of the Book of Mormon Heartland Model? Of course you have. Here is some of that evidence. Elephants Among People in Ancient North America. https://bookofmormonheartland.com/eleph ... h-america/

[kirtland r.m.]

I have one person on this forum who continues to work to shred the Book of Mormon heartland model. That's fine, yet their continued insistence that it's description when matched with western hemisphere geography is completely false is oh so wrong. I have seen certain B.Y.U. Professors with this same argument as well and they are wrong. I would say, get your head out of the 1970's and get with the continuing research (although I have some heartland info. from James E. Talmage which is rockingly awesome and I will post it later). This ongoing battle with one forum member drives about half of my geography posting so bear with me, here is yet further information showing they have been wrong. I will put future information in the next two weeks on this thread. If it bores you, you can know in advance and avoid it.

I have posted over and over on this subject this year. What I will post now is mostly new and things I have not posted in the past. Let's start with what may be small but what is evidently vital in the meso. theory. First, a geography lesson on two competing theories. There is ONLY ONE “Narrow Neck of Land” in the entire Book of Mormon. Ether 10:20. Also. nowhere in the Book of Ether does Moroni mention Nephite or Lamanite locations, except that the Jaredite hill Ramah is the same hill where Mormon hid the records (Ether 15:11). In the first verse of the first chapter, Moroni explained the territory addressed in the Book of Ether: “And now I, Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord upon the face of this north country.”

Despite its solitary appearance in Ether, many commentators have considered the “narrow neck of land” to be a defining feature of both Nephite and Jaredite lands. They think the verse in Ether refers to the same feature as a verse in Alma 22:32, which says “thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.” That interpretation is a mistake. Besides the difference in terminology (narrow does not mean small), the context and frame of reference of the two passages are entirely different, and they were written by different authors hundreds of years apart.

Notice that the small neck of land is an exception to the two lands being “nearly surrounded by water.” No location in Central America is nearly surrounded by water because at both ends there are enormous continents. In North America, both the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi are nearly surrounded by water, with a small neck of land between them, as I’ll explain.

Furthermore, the narrow neck of land in Mesoamerica is over 100 miles wide. Many people have observed the incongruity of describing such a wide stretch of difficult terrain as “narrow.” A feature this wide might appear “narrow” from a satellite, but to someone on the ground, this Isthmus is as wide as the adjacent land.

When we read the text, we need to put ourselves in the place of the authors, in their time and place. They didn’t have satellites. They described their territory as they saw it, from the surface. Perspective is key.

NARROW NECK- Where Hagoth built his ships. On Lake Michigan lower east side following Lake Michigan’s coast along the St Lawrence Continental Divide to the St. Joe River. Anciently the Grand Kankakee Marsh extended south of Lake Michigan and the Great Black Swamp extended west of Lake Erie. The neck running E/W was 30 miles between Warsaw, IN and Merriam IN. Alma 63:5

NARROW NECK OF LAND- Lake Ontario divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie divides the land at Buffalo, NY, and at Toledo, OH. In Central America the ”land divides the sea”. (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether. Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide.

SMALL NECK OF LAND- Allegheny, Susquehanna, and Genesee head-river gaps. (Triple Divide) Only 6 miles between each of these three river heads, where the two Continental Divides meet. (St Lawrence and Eastern Divide) Anciently this location was called the Forbidden Path, and was a strategic defensive location, hunting area, and buffer zone for the Native Americans to protect their south land. “Leading directly into the heart of the central New York Iroquois heartland, the Forbidden Path stood at a strategic transportation break linking river systems ultimately flowing into Chesapeake Bay, the Great Lakes, and the Ohio Valley.” (Journey on the Forbidden Path: Volume 89, Part 2 By Christian Frederick Post, John Hays) Alma 22:32. This is the gate of the Narrow Strip of Wilderness and the place which is the “Nearly” in “nearly surrounded by water.” Don’t confuse this location with the more well known, “Narrow Neck of Land.” (3 “NECKS” see # 3,4,5).

There are 3 unique mentions in the Book of Mormon about NECKS!

NARROW NECK OF LAND Ether 10:20
NARROW NECK Alma 63:5
SMALL NECK OF LAND Alma 22:32
These three unique mentions of NECK are all in different locations in North America. THE NARROW NECK OF LAND is defined below:

Lake Ontario (a sea) divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie (s sea) divides the land at Buffalo, NY.

In Central America, the ”land divides the sea”. (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) which is opposite of what the scripture says about the “sea divides” the land.

Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether. Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide and in Central America it is 140 miles, which doesn’t sound very narrow to me. In the Book of Mormon the Narrow Neck of Land is only described in the Book of Ether, so the Jaredites used it, not the Nephites. There is archaeological verification at the Niagara Peninsula that dates from 800 BC to 3000 BC which is the time of the Jaredites.
All the heavy lifting on this post was done by bookofmormonevidence.org, much thanks to them.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-on ... k-of-land/

That's a good start for now, have a great week!

From the gulf of teutanapec to south east Guatemala. Nearly surrounded by water Pacific Ocean and Gulf of Mexico

I answered this in great detail further up the thread. Further more, the so called narrow neck is not near as narrow as Great Lakes descriptions, along with all the other evidence. So where did they land? I believe they landed in modern day Florida for a variety of reasons. I can even do more but I don't want to wear out readers for the remaining month. What do I still have, you will see another thread on the latest D.N.A. evidence. You will learn something important there.

[kirtland r.m.]

I get most of my pro-Heartland info from kirtland r.m.(mostly because he just won't stop here). I get my pro-MesoAmerica info from Captain Kirk at https://bookofmormonresources.blogspot.com/.

I'm not certain on either model, but I would pay to see the two of them in an intellectual cage match to the death.

LOL

Arm Chair Quarterback and AZRob, you are right on target. Most of the reasons I can't stop yet, are because people keep throwing down the challenge flag on every detail of what I post, so ha ha, silly me, I just have to put the additional info. and answers out there for everybody. You guys are funny, and great! It is awesome to see some good natured humor out there, thanks' guys and gals for reading! Next time some anti try's to blindside you on Book of Mormon evidence false doctrine you will be armed to the teeth with weapons of mass instruction and overwhelming thermo-nuclear truths!

[blitzinstripes]

it's not worth a fight over stuff nobody knows for sure. I don't believe in the heartland model, but you post so much other good stuff that I'm gonna let this stuff slide...

I used to believe in the Central America model, now I don’t.

It isn’t because the heartland model fits so eloquently, it’s because Central America ruins are an abomination per the mosaic law.

It’s also because Joseph Smith mentioned the territories to the north east and to the west from their point of view, as Lamanite’s land.

[snip[]

Agreed!

Now let's summarize the evidence that LAMBS existed in North America during 600 BC-33 AD, shall we?
So that the Mosaic Law could be practiced. I would like to see this evidence!

Abraham offered a ram caught in a thicket. If the law required the firstlings of their flocks, what if they raised something different than traditional sheep? Btw, as you know North America does in fact have several varieties of wild sheep and goats. The account of Ammon and the infamous arm slaughtering mentions flocks....do they by default have to be of the same variety as those found in ancient Israel? Could God not accept a worthy western world substitute of a related genus? Maybe they sacrificed the first born of their cureloms?

[Lynn]

Many think it is the USA. However, even Joseph Smith pointed to Mesoamerica as the areas of the Book of Mormon. The Hill in New York is not capable of holding a cave, as the hill consists of gravel, therefore it would collapse according to LDS researchers. Refer to David A. Palmer's book- In Search of Cumorah'. My copy is 1981/1992/6th Print 1999 HB. Some LDS researchers think Hill Cumorah is Hill Vigia in Mexico near Tres Zapotes.

But some RLDS-CoC researchers pinpoint the Hill Cumorah- Nephites aka Hill Ramah- Jaredites, as Hill Rabon in the upper portion of Oaxaca state, Mexico near the Isthmus & many waters. As for Cerro Rabon being it, in the village next to it, in their ethnography, is that 3 men appear in the village the first week in April claiming to go check on the "National Treasure". People try to follow them as they head for the hill (mountain), but none have caught up with them. That is, until 1972, when young Neil Steede encountered one near the base of the cliff wall side. He was told it was not yet time & that he was not permitted to go further. Plus he was able to tell Neil all about himself & a friend of Neil's (and yet Neil had never met this man before). I have talked & stayed with the Simmons family (who made the Hill Rabon discovery) back in December 1987 & was even shown slides of the "hill" & where the cave it on the cliff side.

Ironically, in J.J. Hurtak's "Keys of Enoch" book 'The Book of Knowledge: The Keys of Enoch' of which was given to him by Enoch & Metatron. In Key # 108:24 it states that Michael is "the Creator of this local universe". In Key #215:41 it states that at Cerro Rabon the "Treasures of Heaven" are placed. Very similar to the term noted in Jalapa de Diaz's ethnography- the "National Treasury".

That would be the records & artifacts in the Cave Library high up on the cliff wall side.

[larsenb]

Geography aside, the communist dictatorships of central and south America simply do not fit the scriptural prophecies of what constituted the "promised land". Only the USA fits that narrative. 1 Nephi 13 makes very specific prophecies on the settlement of the USA, the American revolution, and the scattering of the Laminates. Viewed through the lens of such prophecies, (restoration, JS, rise of the church) you can rule out Mexico and South America.

Much of the architecture of Central and South America seems more closely tied to southeast Asia. The Nephites appear to have worked more commonly with earth and timbers rather than massive stone structures.

People keep letting themselves be blindsided by the massive stone architecture of the Toltecan, classic and post-classic Mayan and Aztecs eras. Earlier culture is MesoAmeica didn't resort to that kind of architecture, with some exceptions. But the Book of Mormon itself talks about cement being used in the land northward/Desolation because of the destruction prevalent there, which is exactly where you find it, according to the location of the land of Desolation in various Meso models.

[larsenb]

I have one person on this forum who continues to work to shred the Book of Mormon heartland model. That's fine, yet their continued insistence that it's description when matched with western hemisphere geography is completely false is oh so wrong. I have seen certain B.Y.U. Professors with this same argument as well and they are wrong. I would say, get your head out of the 1970's and get with the continuing research (although I have some heartland info. from James E. Talmage which is rockingly awesome and I will post it later). This ongoing battle with one forum member drives about half of my geography posting so bear with me, here is yet further information showing they have been wrong. I will put future information in the next two weeks on this thread. If it bores you, you can know in advance and avoid it.

I have posted over and over on this subject this year. What I will post now is mostly new and things I have not posted in the past. Let's start with what may be small but what is evidently vital in the meso. theory. First, a geography lesson on two competing theories. There is ONLY ONE “Narrow Neck of Land” in the entire Book of Mormon. Ether 10:20. Also. nowhere in the Book of Ether does Moroni mention Nephite or Lamanite locations, except that the Jaredite hill Ramah is the same hill where Mormon hid the records (Ether 15:11). In the first verse of the first chapter, Moroni explained the territory addressed in the Book of Ether: “And now I, Moroni, proceed to give an account of those ancient inhabitants who were destroyed by the hand of the Lord upon the face of this north country.”

Despite its solitary appearance in Ether, many commentators have considered the “narrow neck of land” to be a defining feature of both Nephite and Jaredite lands. They think the verse in Ether refers to the same feature as a verse in Alma 22:32, which says “thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.” That interpretation is a mistake. Besides the difference in terminology (narrow does not mean small), the context and frame of reference of the two passages are entirely different, and they were written by different authors hundreds of years apart.

Notice that the small neck of land is an exception to the two lands being “nearly surrounded by water.” No location in Central America is nearly surrounded by water because at both ends there are enormous continents. In North America, both the land of Zarahemla and the land of Nephi are nearly surrounded by water, with a small neck of land between them, as I’ll explain.

Furthermore, the narrow neck of land in Mesoamerica is over 100 miles wide. Many people have observed the incongruity of describing such a wide stretch of difficult terrain as “narrow.” A feature this wide might appear “narrow” from a satellite, but to someone on the ground, this Isthmus is as wide as the adjacent land.

When we read the text, we need to put ourselves in the place of the authors, in their time and place. They didn’t have satellites. They described their territory as they saw it, from the surface. Perspective is key.

NARROW NECK- Where Hagoth built his ships. On Lake Michigan lower east side following Lake Michigan’s coast along the St Lawrence Continental Divide to the St. Joe River. Anciently the Grand Kankakee Marsh extended south of Lake Michigan and the Great Black Swamp extended west of Lake Erie. The neck running E/W was 30 miles between Warsaw, IN and Merriam IN. Alma 63:5

NARROW NECK OF LAND- Lake Ontario divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie divides the land at Buffalo, NY, and at Toledo, OH. In Central America the ”land divides the sea”. (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether. Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide.

SMALL NECK OF LAND- Allegheny, Susquehanna, and Genesee head-river gaps. (Triple Divide) Only 6 miles between each of these three river heads, where the two Continental Divides meet. (St Lawrence and Eastern Divide) Anciently this location was called the Forbidden Path, and was a strategic defensive location, hunting area, and buffer zone for the Native Americans to protect their south land. “Leading directly into the heart of the central New York Iroquois heartland, the Forbidden Path stood at a strategic transportation break linking river systems ultimately flowing into Chesapeake Bay, the Great Lakes, and the Ohio Valley.” (Journey on the Forbidden Path: Volume 89, Part 2 By Christian Frederick Post, John Hays) Alma 22:32. This is the gate of the Narrow Strip of Wilderness and the place which is the “Nearly” in “nearly surrounded by water.” Don’t confuse this location with the more well known, “Narrow Neck of Land.” (3 “NECKS” see # 3,4,5).

There are 3 unique mentions in the Book of Mormon about NECKS!

NARROW NECK OF LAND Ether 10:20
NARROW NECK Alma 63:5
SMALL NECK OF LAND Alma 22:32
These three unique mentions of NECK are all in different locations in North America. THE NARROW NECK OF LAND is defined below:

Lake Ontario (a sea) divides the land at Hamilton, OT Canada, and Lake Erie (s sea) divides the land at Buffalo, NY.

In Central America, the ”land divides the sea”. (Isthmus of Tehuantepec) which is opposite of what the scripture says about the “sea divides” the land.

Lake Ontario and Lake Erie are seas, where the “sea divides the land” as quoted in Ether. Ether 10:20. The N/S distance from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is only about 24 miles wide and in Central America it is 140 miles, which doesn’t sound very narrow to me. In the Book of Mormon the Narrow Neck of Land is only described in the Book of Ether, so the Jaredites used it, not the Nephites. There is archaeological verification at the Niagara Peninsula that dates from 800 BC to 3000 BC which is the time of the Jaredites.
All the heavy lifting on this post was done by bookofmormonevidence.org, much thanks to them.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/the-on ... k-of-land/

That's a good start for now, have a great week!

From the gulf of teutanapec to south east Guatemala. Nearly surrounded by water Pacific Ocean and Gulf of Mexico

I answered this in great detail further up the thread. Further more, the so called narrow neck is not near as narrow as Great Lakes descriptions, along with all the other evidence. So where did they land? I believe they landed in modern day Florida for a variety of reasons. I can even do more but I don't want to wear out readers for the remaining month. What do I still have, you will see another thread on the latest D.N.A. evidence. You will learn something important there.

Yes, Florida, as the land of their first inheritance, i.e., where they first landed after their voyage from present day Oman. Problem with that is that several passages in the BofM don't square with that idea at all. This idea is one of the main force-fits employed by the Heartland modelers.