LDS Freedom Forum

A simpler poll to see if there is more engagement or if it’s better in certain ways based on feedback. One vote per person. This poll will run for 10 days. Please feel free to give me further input on the polling. I’m trying to space them out so they’re not too frequent.

President Nelson is the presiding High Priest, and as such is the legitimate president of the church.
That is very different from being a prophet.
The Saints have these two things hopelessly conflated.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 1:17 pm President Nelson is the presiding High Priest, and as such is the legitimate president of the church.
That is very different from being a prophet.
The Saints have these two things hopelessly conflated.

Yes I have heard people point this out before. Important distinction imo.

I believe everyone has prophetic potential but some people are more open to it than others. In RMN's case he has several issues, including his ego and listening too much to the forces of this world... RMN could be more prophetic if he shifted his perspective.

Niemand wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:32 pm I believe everyone has prophetic potential but some people are more open to it than others. In RMN's case he has several issues, including his ego and listening too much to the forces of this world... RMN could be more prophetic if he shifted his perspective.

So out of curiosity did you vote and what option did you vote for? If you're comfortable sharing.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:35 pm

Niemand wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:32 pm I believe everyone has prophetic potential but some people are more open to it than others. In RMN's case he has several issues, including his ego and listening too much to the forces of this world... RMN could be more prophetic if he shifted his perspective.

So out of curiosity did you vote and what option did you vote for? If you're comfortable sharing.

Other.

Jesus Christ has already told us that we can know by their fruits.

I guess the question then is: what are the fruits of prophets should the world be looking for?

If only there was some kind of sacred text of holy writ that we could look to as a standard of what fruits a prophet of God would produce.

Niemand wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:37 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:35 pm

Niemand wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:32 pm I believe everyone has prophetic potential but some people are more open to it than others. In RMN's case he has several issues, including his ego and listening too much to the forces of this world... RMN could be more prophetic if he shifted his perspective.

So out of curiosity did you vote and what option did you vote for? If you're comfortable sharing.

Other.

So since you say he could be "more prophetic" you believe he is prophetic to *some* degree but could be more so by shifting his perspective?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 1:17 pm President Nelson is the presiding High Priest, and as such is the legitimate president of the church.
That is very different from being a prophet.
The Saints have these two things hopelessly conflated.

Yup, and that's were D&C 85 comes into play. All of God's words being fulfilled, you know.

In his case, I can't even say he is the legitimate president of the corporation, let alone prophet. He was ordained before he was sustained.

BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:48 pm In his case, I can't even say he is the legitimate president of the corporation, let alone prophet. He was ordained before he was sustained.

Wow interesting take. Care to elaborate?

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:03 pm

BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:48 pm In his case, I can't even say he is the legitimate president of the corporation, let alone prophet. He was ordained before he was sustained.

Wow interesting take. Care to elaborate?

It was a press conference, I believe, where they told us that RMN had already been ordained as PS&R. Obviously he wouldn't be sustained until GC later in April. The press conference was in January. They ordained him on Jan. 14th. That isn't the way things used to be done. Once upon a time, your "vote" mattered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keqbSQtqyOk

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:43 pm So since you say he could be "more prophetic" you believe he is prophetic to *some* degree but could be more so by shifting his perspective?

Yes. If you look in the Bible people much worse than him who become prophets. Adam helped invite Satan into this world. Noah got drunk. Moses killed someone. David sent Uriah off to his death to nail Bathsheba. Peter lied about Jesus and so on.

Whether he knows it or not, he has said several true things. He told us to follow the Holy Ghost, he told us to work on home study, and he told us to lessen social media. (Although the last one may have been for the wrong reasons.) I don't think he has delivered all the goods though.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 1:17 pm President Nelson is the presiding High Priest, and as such is the legitimate president of the church.
That is very different from being a prophet.
The Saints have these two things hopelessly conflated.

So they need to change the song to "follow the presiding high priest"? Who is the prophet children should follow? The common conclusion for most every primary teacher is RMN which speaks to your comment. I think most members think RMN is both. He's the president of the corporation and acting high priest but is he the only man who receives revelation for the church? Was Moses both? I think this distinction between prophet and PHP seems pretty important. To me presiding high priest makes me think of a point on an organization leadership chart, not parting waters.

BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:13 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:03 pm

BringerOfJoy wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:48 pm In his case, I can't even say he is the legitimate president of the corporation, let alone prophet. He was ordained before he was sustained.

Wow interesting take. Care to elaborate?

It was a press conference, I believe, where they told us that RMN had already been ordained as PS&R. Obviously he wouldn't be sustained until GC later in April. The press conference was in January. They ordained him on Jan. 14th. That isn't the way things used to be done. Once upon a time, your "vote" mattered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keqbSQtqyOk

So the lack of a sustaining vote means he was installed into office before the church was able to voice "consent" in your mind which makes his calling not legit?

Niemand wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:22 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:43 pm So since you say he could be "more prophetic" you believe he is prophetic to *some* degree but could be more so by shifting his perspective?

Yes. If you look in the Bible people much worse than him who become prophets. Adam helped invite Satan into this world. Noah got drunk. Moses killed someone. David sent Uriah off to his death to nail Bathsheba. Peter lied about Jesus and so on.

Whether he knows it or not, he has said several true things. He told us to follow the Holy Ghost, he told us to work on home study, and he told us to lessen social media. (Although the last one may have been for the wrong reasons.) I don't think he has delivered all the goods though.

Solid point. What was your interpretation of the "called by god" part if you're willing to explain your thinking?

Atrasado wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:45 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 1:17 pm President Nelson is the presiding High Priest, and as such is the legitimate president of the church.
That is very different from being a prophet.
The Saints have these two things hopelessly conflated.

Yup, and that's were D&C 85 comes into play. All of God's words being fulfilled, you know.

I looked at 85 but do you want to elaborate more or not really?

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 1:17 pm President Nelson is the presiding High Priest

Interesting. He has the same position that Caiaphas held.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:33 pm

Niemand wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:22 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:43 pm So since you say he could be "more prophetic" you believe he is prophetic to *some* degree but could be more so by shifting his perspective?

Yes. If you look in the Bible people much worse than him who become prophets. Adam helped invite Satan into this world. Noah got drunk. Moses killed someone. David sent Uriah off to his death to nail Bathsheba. Peter lied about Jesus and so on.

Whether he knows it or not, he has said several true things. He told us to follow the Holy Ghost, he told us to work on home study, and he told us to lessen social media. (Although the last one may have been for the wrong reasons.) I don't think he has delivered all the goods though.

Solid point. What was your interpretation of the "called by god" part if you're willing to explain your thinking?

You can be called but not answer properly or fulfil your calling. It is not unlikely that God has done so, but he has not listened properly or listened to the wrong voices. Francis is the same. They will be held accountable if they make the wrong choices especially as they influence so many others.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:38 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:45 pm

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 1:17 pm President Nelson is the presiding High Priest, and as such is the legitimate president of the church.
That is very different from being a prophet.
The Saints have these two things hopelessly conflated.

Yup, and that's were D&C 85 comes into play. All of God's words being fulfilled, you know.

I looked at 85 but do you want to elaborate more or not really?

When the one mighty and strong comes, the servant (presumably the presiding high priest of the Church, since that is who the one mighty and strong will be replacing) who was called and set apart who has steadied the ark will be destroyed as if by lightning. Or something like that.

Niemand wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 4:10 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:33 pm

Niemand wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:22 pm

Yes. If you look in the Bible people much worse than him who become prophets. Adam helped invite Satan into this world. Noah got drunk. Moses killed someone. David sent Uriah off to his death to nail Bathsheba. Peter lied about Jesus and so on.

Whether he knows it or not, he has said several true things. He told us to follow the Holy Ghost, he told us to work on home study, and he told us to lessen social media. (Although the last one may have been for the wrong reasons.) I don't think he has delivered all the goods though.

Solid point. What was your interpretation of the "called by god" part if you're willing to explain your thinking?

You can be called but not answer properly or fulfil your calling. It is not unlikely that God has done so, but he has not listened properly or listened to the wrong voices. Francis is the same. They will be held accountable if they make the wrong choices especially as they influence so many others.

Okay that could make sense. So you don't know how God called him but you believe He did and now Nelson's responsible for how he handles that calling that God extended to him?

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:39 pm If only there was some kind of sacred text of holy writ that we could look to as a standard of what fruits a prophet of God would produce.

Hugh B Brown gave a talk and said what the standard of a prophet should be as he spoke to a man who asked:

We agreed between us that the following characteristics should distinguish a man who claims to be a prophet:

1. He will boldly claim that God had spoken to him.

2. Any man so claiming would be a dignified man with a dignified message—no table jumping, no whisperings from the dead, no clairvoyance, but an intelligent statement of truth.

3. Any man claiming to be a prophet of God would declare his message without any fear and without making any weak concessions to public opinion.

4. If he were speaking for God he could not make concessions, although what he taught would be new and contrary to the accepted teachings of the day. A prophet bears witness to what he has seen and heard and seldom tries to make a case by argument. His message and not himself is important.

5. Such a man would speak in the name of the Lord, saying, “Thus said the Lord,” as did Moses, Joshua, and others.

6. Such a man would predict future events in the name of the Lord, and they would come to pass, as did those predicted by Isaiah and Ezekiel.

7. He would have not only an important message for his time but often a message for all future time, such as Daniel, Jeremiah, and others had.

8. He would have courage and faith enough to endure persecution and to give his life, if need be, for the cause he espoused, such as Peter, James, Paul, and others did.

9. Such a man would denounce wickedness fearlessly. He would generally be rejected or persecuted by the people of his time, but later generations and descendants of his persecutors would build monuments in his honor.

10. He would be able to do superhuman things—things that no man could do without God’s help. The consequence or result of his message and work would be convincing evidence of his prophetic calling: “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:20).

11. His teachings would be in strict conformity with scripture, and his words and his writings would become scripture. “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:21).

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/hugh-b-b ... a-prophet/

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 4:18 pm Okay that could make sense. So you don't know how God called him but you believe He did and now Nelson's responsible for how he handles that calling that God extended to him?

I think maybe it's like our rulers. God can and does remove them at will, and in the blink of an eye. However, he also allows them chances and choices, and probably does whisper to them. If they do not listen it is their fault.

God knew that he would become president of the LDS before he was even born. He also knew what his faults would be. Nelson was called in the sense that he was in the right place and the right time, and God has allowed him to live to this age..God did not give him that

Now here's the rub: he could be called by God, but is he ordained by God? You shall know them by their fruits.

Vote: Other


Deut 18:20-22
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Ezekiel 14:9 JST And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have NOT deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

TPJS 237-238
Speaking of Ezekiel 14: "the Lord had declared by the Prophet (Ezekiel) that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in the state of corruption of the Jewish church, that righteous persons could deliver only their own souls - applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints - that they (members) were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds.”

Isaiah 3:14-15 (BkM) 14 He will bring to trial the Elders of his people and their rulers, and say to them, It is you who have devoured the vineyard; you fill your houses by depriving the needy.
15 What do you mean by oppressing my people, humbling the faces of the poor? says Jehovah of Hosts.

Isaiah 9:14-16 (BkM) Therefore, Jehovah will cut off from Israel head and tail, palm top and reed, in a single day; the Elders or notables are the head, the prophets who teach falsehoods, the tail. The leaders of these people have misled them, and those who are led are confused.


Isaiah 28:7 These too have indulged in wine and are giddy with strong drink: priests and prophets have gone astray through liquor. They are intoxicated with wine and stagger because of strong drink; they err as seers, they blunder in their decisions.



Awful is our situation. RMN may have the keys. He may be a prophet. Certainly, RMN hath been deceived on many things (ie Vaxx). Based on the above scriptures, I trust no church leaders, or man, at this point. I only trust the Lord. Each separate teaching that come from the Church should be tested by the scriptures and approved by the Holy Spirit. PERIOD

I don't think this is a yes or no answer. A prophet could be right on one thing, and completely deceived on another. I do believe that members have gotten the leadership 'we' have deserved. We are in so much trouble.

I would like to thank all my LDSFF brothers and sisters. Knowing that others here feel as I do, that I haven't gone completely insane, has really helped me.

Does anyone really think the words spoken by these men from the pulpit twice a year or in press conferences are their own words?

The Lord said thru Joseph Smith, according to his First Vision, regarding the religionists of the day: "...they draw near into be with their lips but their hearts are far from me... teach for differences the commandments of men"
It's apparent to us that the talks are prepared speaches that originate or are processed thru the Correlation Committee and the meetings are not only as led by the spirit.

What about Ezekiel 23?

9 ¶ Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the Lord, and because of the words of his holiness

11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the Lord

12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the Lord.

13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

As far as keys, Joseph Smith Jr. was given the keys of the kingdom for time and eternity, as spoken by his father Joseph Smith in his patriarchal blessing, even though Hyrum was delegated to prophesy for the church prior to their deaths:
"Thou shalt like to do the work which the Lord shall command thee: Thou shalt hold the Keys of this ministry, even the presidency of this church, both in time and in eternity."