LDS Freedom Forum

Niemand wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 4:54 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 4:18 pm Okay that could make sense. So you don't know how God called him but you believe He did and now Nelson's responsible for how he handles that calling that God extended to him?

I think maybe it's like our rulers. God can and does remove them at will, and in the blink of an eye. However, he also allows them chances and choices, and probably does whisper to them. If they do not listen it is their fault.

God knew that he would become president of the LDS before he was even born. He also knew what his faults would be. Nelson was called in the sense that he was in the right place and the right time, and God has allowed him to live to this age..God did not give him that

Now here's the rub: he could be called by God, but is he ordained by God? You shall know them by their fruits.

JLHPROF wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 5:58 pm I put other. I believe God designed for His Church to have the leaders it has had in each period. It's God's restored Church.
I don't think anyone gets to lead it if God doesn't want them there.

Whether that makes him a prophet, worthy of his calling, or a steward I don't know.

Atrasado wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 4:18 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:38 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:45 pm
Yup, and that's were D&C 85 comes into play. All of God's words being fulfilled, you know.

I looked at 85 but do you want to elaborate more or not really?

When the one mighty and strong comes, the servant (presumably the presiding high priest of the Church, since that is who the one mighty and strong will be replacing) who was called and set apart who has steadied the ark will be destroyed as if by lightning. Or something like that.

• 70% of those polled believe RMN is not or is probably not a prophet called by god

• 12% believe he is

• 8% are undecided and 8% are ‘other’.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 6:19 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 4:18 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:38 pm

I looked at 85 but do you want to elaborate more or not really?

When the one mighty and strong comes, the servant (presumably the presiding high priest of the Church, since that is who the one mighty and strong will be replacing) who was called and set apart who has steadied the ark will be destroyed as if by lightning. Or something like that.

Okay. So you’re view is that the OM&S will take over the church because his church is at least part of God’s house and that means logically he’ll probably replace whoever the lds president is at that time?

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 6:19 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 4:18 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 3:38 pm

I looked at 85 but do you want to elaborate more or not really?

When the one mighty and strong comes, the servant (presumably the presiding high priest of the Church, since that is who the one mighty and strong will be replacing) who was called and set apart who has steadied the ark will be destroyed as if by lightning. Or something like that.

Okay. So you’re view is that the OM&S will take over the church because his church is at least part of God’s house and that means logically he’ll probably replace whoever the lds president is at that time?

Atrasado wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 8:10 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 6:19 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 4:18 pm
When the one mighty and strong comes, the servant (presumably the presiding high priest of the Church, since that is who the one mighty and strong will be replacing) who was called and set apart who has steadied the ark will be destroyed as if by lightning. Or something like that.

Okay. So you’re view is that the OM&S will take over the church because his church is at least part of God’s house and that means logically he’ll probably replace whoever the lds president is at that time?

Well, it will still be the Lord's Church, but it will be put in order by a servant sent by the Lord.

HereWeGo wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 4:20 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:39 pm If only there was some kind of sacred text of holy writ that we could look to as a standard of what fruits a prophet of God would produce.

Hugh B Brown gave a talk and said what the standard of a prophet should be as he spoke to a man who asked:

We agreed between us that the following characteristics should distinguish a man who claims to be a prophet:

1. He will boldly claim that God had spoken to him.

2. Any man so claiming would be a dignified man with a dignified message—no table jumping, no whisperings from the dead, no clairvoyance, but an intelligent statement of truth.

3. Any man claiming to be a prophet of God would declare his message without any fear and without making any weak concessions to public opinion.

4. If he were speaking for God he could not make concessions, although what he taught would be new and contrary to the accepted teachings of the day. A prophet bears witness to what he has seen and heard and seldom tries to make a case by argument. His message and not himself is important.

5. Such a man would speak in the name of the Lord, saying, “Thus said the Lord,” as did Moses, Joshua, and others.

6. Such a man would predict future events in the name of the Lord, and they would come to pass, as did those predicted by Isaiah and Ezekiel.

7. He would have not only an important message for his time but often a message for all future time, such as Daniel, Jeremiah, and others had.

8. He would have courage and faith enough to endure persecution and to give his life, if need be, for the cause he espoused, such as Peter, James, Paul, and others did.

9. Such a man would denounce wickedness fearlessly. He would generally be rejected or persecuted by the people of his time, but later generations and descendants of his persecutors would build monuments in his honor.

10. He would be able to do superhuman things—things that no man could do without God’s help. The consequence or result of his message and work would be convincing evidence of his prophetic calling: “By their fruits ye shall know them” (Matthew 7:20).

11. His teachings would be in strict conformity with scripture, and his words and his writings would become scripture. “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:21).

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/hugh-b-b ... a-prophet/

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 8:12 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 6:19 pm

Atrasado wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 4:18 pm
When the one mighty and strong comes, the servant (presumably the presiding high priest of the Church, since that is who the one mighty and strong will be replacing) who was called and set apart who has steadied the ark will be destroyed as if by lightning. Or something like that.

Okay. So you’re view is that the OM&S will take over the church because his church is at least part of God’s house and that means logically he’ll probably replace whoever the lds president is at that time?

This is why people think it will be a resurrected Joseph Smith Jr.:

8 But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments, and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.

9 For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;

10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

11 But verily I say unto you, I have decreed that your brethren which have been scattered shall return to the lands of their inheritances, and shall build up the waste places of Zion.

12 For after much tribulation, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, cometh the blessing.

13 Behold, this is the blessing which I have promised after your tribulations, and the tribulations of your brethren—your redemption, and the redemption of your brethren, even their restoration to the land of Zion, to be established, no more to be thrown down.

14 Nevertheless, if they pollute their inheritances they shall be thrown down; for I will not spare them if they pollute their inheritances.

15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be bled out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.

19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.

20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

21 Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you. (***IN REFERENCE TO D&C 101:43-69 ****)

22 Therefore let my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., say unto the strength of my house, my young men and the middle aged—Gather yourselves together unto the land of Zion, upon the land which I have bought with money that has been consecrated unto me.

Niemand wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 2:32 pm I believe everyone has prophetic potential but some people are more open to it than others. In RMN's case he has several issues, including his ego and listening too much to the forces of this world... RMN could be more prophetic if he shifted his perspective.

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 9:54 pm I think it is very doctrinally sound to use one's fruit to determine whether or not they're a prophet. I don't think it makes one a sign-seeker or a pickle sucker to look/ask for fruit.

With that said, I ask a fair question: If RMN is actually a prophet, what is his fruit?

I've had people suggest that the emphasis on home church and Come Follow Me shortly before covid is proof that RMN is a prophet. And frankly, if I was trying to argue that point, I too would probably lean on those examples. But that'd be because it would be the best argument I'd have, not because it's a good argument.

I don't mean or intend to be combative, and I don't have the energy to engage in a debate. I'm just asking a sincere question. What is RMN's prophetic fruit?

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 8:33 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 8:12 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 6:19 pm

Okay. So you’re view is that the OM&S will take over the church because his church is at least part of God’s house and that means logically he’ll probably replace whoever the lds president is at that time?

This is why people think it will be a resurrected Joseph Smith Jr.:

8 But inasmuch as they keep not my commandments, and hearken not to observe all my words, the kingdoms of the world shall prevail against them.

9 For they were set to be a light unto the world, and to be the saviors of men;

10 And inasmuch as they are not the saviors of men, they are as salt that has lost its savor, and is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out and trodden under foot of men.

11 But verily I say unto you, I have decreed that your brethren which have been scattered shall return to the lands of their inheritances, and shall build up the waste places of Zion.

12 For after much tribulation, as I have said unto you in a former commandment, cometh the blessing.

13 Behold, this is the blessing which I have promised after your tribulations, and the tribulations of your brethren—your redemption, and the redemption of your brethren, even their restoration to the land of Zion, to be established, no more to be thrown down.

14 Nevertheless, if they pollute their inheritances they shall be thrown down; for I will not spare them if they pollute their inheritances.

15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be bled out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.

19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.

20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

21 Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable which I have given unto you. (***IN REFERENCE TO D&C 101:43-69 ****)

22 Therefore let my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., say unto the strength of my house, my young men and the middle aged—Gather yourselves together unto the land of Zion, upon the land which I have bought with money that has been consecrated unto me.

Do you have an opinion on who it might be? You favor Joseph?

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 9:54 pm I think it is very doctrinally sound to use one's fruit to determine whether or not they're a prophet. I don't think it makes one a sign-seeker or a pickle sucker to look/ask for fruit.

With that said, I ask a fair question: If RMN is actually a prophet, what is his fruit?

I've had people suggest that the emphasis on home church and Come Follow Me shortly before covid is proof that RMN is a prophet. And frankly, if I was trying to argue that point, I too would probably lean on those examples. But that'd be because it would be the best argument I'd have, not because it's a good argument.

I don't mean or intend to be combative, and I don't have the energy to engage in a debate. I'm just asking a sincere question. What is RMN's prophetic fruit?

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 7:04 pm At 50 votes

• 70% of those polled believe RMN is not or is probably not a prophet called by god

• 12% believe he is

• 8% are undecided and 8% are ‘other’.

• 70% of voters (55 people) believe RMN is not or is probably not a legitimate prophet

• 11% (9 people) believe RMN is or probably is a legitimate prophet

• 9% (7 people) are undecided on this topic

hideki wrote: ↑November 14th, 2023, 3:05 am In Japan, a church member who denies the authority of the prophet and makes his claims public is considered an apostate.
In Japan, more than 90% of active members believe in the current prophet.
Almost all who do not believe are inactive.

IsaiahVision wrote: ↑November 14th, 2023, 7:46 am

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 13th, 2023, 7:04 pm At 50 votes

• 70% of those polled believe RMN is not or is probably not a prophet called by god

• 12% believe he is

• 8% are undecided and 8% are ‘other’.

D&C 64:38-40 For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known. And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead.