How much must a member contribute annually?

[Wolfwoman]

I am doing some research in preparation for giving a talk in church.

I followed a reference from Ian Ardern's recent General Conference talk to the Times and the Seasons March 15, 1842, pages 731-732 and found this:

There is a letter written by Richard Savary to Joseph Smith and Joseph prints it with his reply in the Times and Seasons. (Joseph Smith had just taken over as the editor at the beginning of March 1842.)
In the letter, Richard says he has met with John Page who is doing missionary work in Pennsylvania, and he has almost been persuaded to be a Christian through John's preaching and rational discussion. Then he asks this at the end of his letter:

I now wish to know through you the laws and regulations of your church—what is required of its members—how much (if a man of property,) must he contribute annually for its support. In short what is required to constitute good membership?
If you will please answer those questions comprehensively you will confer a favor on one who with pleasure subscribes himself your friend, and humble servant:
RICHARD SAVARY.

Joseph then replies that a person must repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, etc. and then in regards to how much must be given annually, he says this:

Respecting how much a man of property shall give annually we have no special instructions to give; he is to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all, wherever he finds them, to believe and obey all that God has revealed, does reveal, or will reveal, to do good unto all men, to be a member in good standing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Ed.

Anyway, I just thought it was interesting in regards to #tithing.

[Telavian]

The church today would certainly disavow that.

[Wolfwoman]

The church today would certainly disavow that.

They would say you gotta pay 10% of your wages, plus feed the hungry.

[Mindfields]

That would be the right take on "tithing", so how/why did it change? Was Joseph Smith behind it or was it changed by other church leaders?

[tmac]

The church today would certainly disavow that.

They would say you gotta pay 10% of your wages, plus feed the hungry.

If only the poor, widows and orphans (hungry) were taken care of, there wouldn’t be anything for the fat cats.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Thanks, Wolfwoman, this is one of the reasons why I appreciate the members on this forum, for finding gems like this.

I'm curious how you'll slip this one into your lesson.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I believe historical context and timing are VERY important here. These sentiments from Joseph were given AFTER D&C 109 was written.

[SJR3t2]

I am doing some research in preparation for giving a talk in church.

I followed a reference from Ian Ardern's recent General Conference talk to the Times and the Seasons March 15, 1842, pages 731-732 and found this:

There is a letter written by Richard Savary to Joseph Smith and Joseph prints it with his reply in the Times and Seasons. (Joseph Smith had just taken over as the editor at the beginning of March 1842.)
In the letter, Richard says he has met with John Page who is doing missionary work in Pennsylvania, and he has almost been persuaded to be a Christian through John's preaching and rational discussion. Then he asks this at the end of his letter:

I now wish to know through you the laws and regulations of your church—what is required of its members—how much (if a man of property,) must he contribute annually for its support. In short what is required to constitute good membership?
If you will please answer those questions comprehensively you will confer a favor on one who with pleasure subscribes himself your friend, and humble servant:
RICHARD SAVARY.

Joseph then replies that a person must repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, etc. and then in regards to how much must be given annually, he says this:

Respecting how much a man of property shall give annually we have no special instructions to give; he is to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all, wherever he finds them, to believe and obey all that God has revealed, does reveal, or will reveal, to do good unto all men, to be a member in good standing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Ed.

Anyway, I just thought it was interesting in regards to #tithing.

I would wonder what the timing of this possible statement in relations to D&C 119 and JST Genesis 14?
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/tithing/

[Wolfwoman]

I am doing some research in preparation for giving a talk in church.

I followed a reference from Ian Ardern's recent General Conference talk to the Times and the Seasons March 15, 1842, pages 731-732 and found this:

There is a letter written by Richard Savary to Joseph Smith and Joseph prints it with his reply in the Times and Seasons. (Joseph Smith had just taken over as the editor at the beginning of March 1842.)
In the letter, Richard says he has met with John Page who is doing missionary work in Pennsylvania, and he has almost been persuaded to be a Christian through John's preaching and rational discussion. Then he asks this at the end of his letter:

I now wish to know through you the laws and regulations of your church—what is required of its members—how much (if a man of property,) must he contribute annually for its support. In short what is required to constitute good membership?
If you will please answer those questions comprehensively you will confer a favor on one who with pleasure subscribes himself your friend, and humble servant:
RICHARD SAVARY.

Joseph then replies that a person must repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, etc. and then in regards to how much must be given annually, he says this:

Respecting how much a man of property shall give annually we have no special instructions to give; he is to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all, wherever he finds them, to believe and obey all that God has revealed, does reveal, or will reveal, to do good unto all men, to be a member in good standing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Ed.

Anyway, I just thought it was interesting in regards to #tithing.

I would wonder what the timing of this possible statement in relations to D&C 119 and JST Genesis 14?
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/tithing/

D&C 119 was given a few years prior to this. I’m not sure about JST Genesis 14.

[SJR3t2]

I am doing some research in preparation for giving a talk in church.

I followed a reference from Ian Ardern's recent General Conference talk to the Times and the Seasons March 15, 1842, pages 731-732 and found this:

There is a letter written by Richard Savary to Joseph Smith and Joseph prints it with his reply in the Times and Seasons. (Joseph Smith had just taken over as the editor at the beginning of March 1842.)
In the letter, Richard says he has met with John Page who is doing missionary work in Pennsylvania, and he has almost been persuaded to be a Christian through John's preaching and rational discussion. Then he asks this at the end of his letter:



Joseph then replies that a person must repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, etc. and then in regards to how much must be given annually, he says this:



Anyway, I just thought it was interesting in regards to #tithing.

I would wonder what the timing of this possible statement in relations to D&C 119 and JST Genesis 14?
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/tithing/

D&C 119 was given a few years prior to this. I’m not sure about JST Genesis 14.

If D&C 119 was given before this, I would find this quote suspect because it's claiming do what you want other than 1/10 of your SURPLUS.

[Shawn Henry]

If D&C 119 was given before this, I would find this quote suspect because it's claiming do what you want other than 1/10 of your SURPLUS.

Why would it be suspect if spot on with the Savior's own words to care for the poor?

Wouldn't a revelation being given to a church that had Christ himself remove his name from said church and to a people who Christ said were condemned be more suspect?

It seems to me as if Joseph is tailoring his message to the particular audience. A letter written in honesty gets an honest response. A condemned, however, church gets a condemned message.

[Wolfwoman]

I would wonder what the timing of this possible statement in relations to D&C 119 and JST Genesis 14?
https://seekingyhwh.org/resources/tithing/

D&C 119 was given a few years prior to this. I’m not sure about JST Genesis 14.

If D&C 119 was given before this, I would find this quote suspect because it's claiming do what you want other than 1/10 of your SURPLUS.

You can look it up on Joseph Smith papers. It’s there.
I can’t explain it. But found it interesting.

[randyps]

The church today would certainly disavow that.

They would say you gotta pay 10% of your wages, plus feed the hungry.

plus bring your own cleaning supplies on saturday chapel cleanups.

Not complaining, just stating a letter we received from our EQ today. Luckily I run a cleaning business and can bring my own and supply to others.

[Wolfwoman]

The church today would certainly disavow that.

They would say you gotta pay 10% of your wages, plus feed the hungry.

plus bring your own cleaning supplies on saturday chapel cleanups.

Not complaining, just stating a letter we received from our EQ today. Luckily I run a cleaning business and can bring my own and supply to others.

Wow. That’s crazy.
I might be okay with it, I guess, because I like to use the more natural, non-toxic cleaners. So I wouldn’t mind bringing my own. Still, it’s strange to require that. Our church building has tons of cleaning supplies.

[LDS Physician]

Fantastic find. Imagine tithing by your own conscience, between the Lord and yourself, for the benefit of those in want around you ... instead of through an intermediary corporation which frequently spends its funds on non-church-related properties, stocks, and plays shell games with the government.

[Atrasado]

Fantastic find. Imagine tithing by your own conscience, between the Lord and yourself, for the benefit of those in want around you ... instead of through an intermediary corporation which frequently spends its funds on non-church-related properties, stocks, and plays shell games with the government.

That's a terrible idea. There wouldn't be any more opportunities for enriching yourself and your family through the Church! How are we supposed to know who's righteous or not, then? Even though some people will naturally be richer than others under capitalism, it's access to large amounts of sacred funds that really separates the wheat from the tares.

[SJR3t2]

If D&C 119 was given before this, I would find this quote suspect because it's claiming do what you want other than 1/10 of your SURPLUS.

Why would it be suspect if spot on with the Savior's own words to care for the poor?

Wouldn't a revelation being given to a church that had Christ himself remove his name from said church and to a people who Christ said were condemned be more suspect?

It seems to me as if Joseph is tailoring his message to the particular audience. A letter written in honesty gets an honest response. A condemned, however, church gets a condemned message.

This quote is not spot on.

[SJR3t2]

D&C 119 was given a few years prior to this. I’m not sure about JST Genesis 14.

If D&C 119 was given before this, I would find this quote suspect because it's claiming do what you want other than 1/10 of your SURPLUS.

You can look it up on Joseph Smith papers. It’s there.
I can’t explain it. But found it interesting.

Not everything on JSP should be trusted.

[Wolfwoman]

If D&C 119 was given before this, I would find this quote suspect because it's claiming do what you want other than 1/10 of your SURPLUS.

You can look it up on Joseph Smith papers. It’s there.
I can’t explain it. But found it interesting.

Not everything on JSP should be trusted.

Here is the link for anyone interested in inspecting it.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ch-1842/15

Instead of saying the source cannot be trusted, you could just say something like, “We ought to accept canonized scripture over a letter in the newspaper.”

[SJR3t2]

You can look it up on Joseph Smith papers. It’s there.
I can’t explain it. But found it interesting.

Not everything on JSP should be trusted.

Here is the link for anyone interested in inspecting it.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper ... ch-1842/15

Instead of saying the source cannot be trusted, you could just say something like, “We ought to accept canonized scripture over a letter in the newspaper.”

Guess what Brigham Young modified church history. https://seekingyhwh.org/2023/07/12/jose ... ast-dream/