LDS Freedom Forum

As the title suggests, I have a hard time celebrating Veterans Day. Not because I don't love and care for those who have lost lives in thinking they are doing good in the world, but because of the lies that have been told to send our men and women to battle. As a general observation, most military systems demand exact obedience to another person who holds authority over them. In some ways, you lose your autonomy. The very training required of an active military requires you to deny various truths in scripture. I've done a fair amount of study on the reasons why America has gone to war. While on the surface many of these actions seem quite justified, below the surface is where a lot of lies, greed, and corruption can be found.

And on that same note, I also have a hard time reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I don't pledge my allegiance to a flag that stands as a symbol of the USA. I pledge my allegiance to God. I will support any nation that chooses to worship God and to live His laws. In the current state of things, the United States has become a symbol of Babylon. In some ways, a flag can become an idol in and of itself.

Agreed. Nothing against the individuals who think they are doing what's right. We should renounce war and proclaim peace. Rarely has the U.S. been involved in a justifiable war. The U.S. is akin to the Roman Empire, we just don't officially call it an empire. It is. If you have "750 military base sites estimated in around 80+ foreign countries and colonies/territories" you're an empire.

I feel the same way. Buffy Sante-Marie, who seems to be taking heat these days, had an interesting take on war and instead of blaming government and religion she blamed the soldiers in her song, Universal Soldier. The song was covered by Donovan in the 60s and it became a minor hit for him in Canada. I still remember hearing the song on the radio from when I was a child. Buffy's recording always brings tears to my eyes. I've included both versions, below:

Mike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYEsFQ_gt7c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC9pc4U40sI

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 9:57 am Buffy Sante-Marie...

Thanks for sharing. While she speaks to the soldier, I think the greater overtones are what the military complex has created, even a "Universal Soldier." Yet, at the same time, we all have our agency.

Here are the lyrics:

He's 5 foot 2 and he's 6 feet 4
And he fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17.
And he's been a soldier for a thousand years

He's five foot-two and he's six feet-four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
Been a soldier for a thousand year

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain
A Buddhist, and a Baptist, and a Jew
And he knows he shouldn't kill
And he knows he always will
Kill you for me, my friend, and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada
He's fighting for France
He's fighting for the U.S.A
And he's fighting for the Russians
And he's fighting for Japan
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for Democracy
He's fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
Who's to live and who's to die
And he never sees the writing on the wall

But without him
How would Hitler have condemned them at Labau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body as a weapon of the war
And without him all this killing can't go on

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from here and there and you and me
And brothers, can't you see?
This is not the way we put the end to war

People need to understand the if God truly did not want this to happen, it would not happen. These rulers are damning themselves and the men who are fighting and dying will be taken up and judged righteously by their Lord and God.

So what if ww1 was part of 3 horns going up and against the small diverse little horn? I know all of the leaders will be rewarded according to their works. The boots on the ground gave their all and I will celebrate them and not cry because this world isn’t perfect.

November 11th 11:11

I know that I agreed to be here on this earth at this time, before I was born. I know that I knew what I was getting into and that it wasn’t going to be perfect and I could not change it. So I have to trust that it will be alright.

For all the “we can change it” people, what did the lord truly change? He gave the saint and disciple an example and hope, for redemption and resurrection.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:12 am For all the “we can change it” people, what did the lord truly change? He gave the saint and disciple an example and hope, for redemption and resurrection.

He taught higher law and doctrine. War, enemies, and how we treat each other were actually very important aspects of his sermons.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:12 am People need to understand the if God truly did not want this to happen, it would not happen.

This is a false ideology. God allowing things does not equate to want. He wants us all to return to Him… but will that happen? No. Agency is a wonderful thing.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:41 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:12 am People need to understand the if God truly did not want this to happen, it would not happen.

This is a false ideology. God allowing things does not equate to want. He wants us all to return to Him… but will that happen? No. Agency is a wonderful thing.

Yes! We can, if we want to, live the covenant wherein we have no poor and have all in common. This is within our power and doing so would protect us from our mortal enemies. It is our failure to realize that we are living on covenanted/promised land that is the problem. We rebelled against the Father and got ourselves kicked out of the Garden. Father sent us a Saviour and our Saviour has promised that if we take care of the poor and needy that He will protect us, otherwise He will allow armies and navies to sweep us off the Promised Land. Is this not the sad story of the Nephites? Is this not the warning we have been given?

Isaiah 1

15) When you spread forth your hands,
I will conceal my eyes from you;
though you pray at length, I will not hear—
your hands are filled with blood.

16) Wash yourselves clean:
remove your wicked deeds
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil.

17) Learn to do good: demand justice,
stand up for the oppressed;
plead the cause of the fatherless,
appeal on behalf of the widow.

18) Come now, let us put it to the test,
says Jehovah:
though your sins are as scarlet,
they can be made white as snow;
though they have reddened as crimson,
they may become white as wool.

19) If you are willing and obey,
you shall eat the good of the land.

20) But if you are unwilling and disobey,
you shall be eaten by the sword.
By his mouth Jehovah has spoken it.

Mike

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:41 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:12 am People need to understand the if God truly did not want this to happen, it would not happen.

This is a false ideology. God allowing things does not equate to want. He wants us all to return to Him… but will that happen? No. Agency is a wonderful thing.

I understand your point of view of my words.

I said “did not want” I don’t mean he wanted them.

How many nukes could have gone off in the United States because of carelessness? At least 2 out of the 6 mishaps.

They did not go off because God did not want them to go off.

Obviously this is all my opinion.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:33 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:12 am For all the “we can change it” people, what did the lord truly change? He gave the saint and disciple an example and hope, for redemption and resurrection.

He taught higher law and doctrine. War, enemies, and how we treat each other were actually very important aspects of his sermons.

He did, he also said the children should not pay taxes because the kings get it from other nations.

“of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?“

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:26 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:33 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:12 am For all the “we can change it” people, what did the lord truly change? He gave the saint and disciple an example and hope, for redemption and resurrection.

He taught higher law and doctrine. War, enemies, and how we treat each other were actually very important aspects of his sermons.

He did, he also said the children should not pay taxes because the kings get it from other nations.

“of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?“

Do you think any of the wars in the past 2-3 generations have been commanded of the Lord?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:29 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:26 am

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:33 am
He taught higher law and doctrine. War, enemies, and how we treat each other were actually very important aspects of his sermons.

He did, he also said the children should not pay taxes because the kings get it from other nations.

“of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?“

Do you think any of the wars in the past 2-3 generations have been commanded of the Lord?

Was the kings taking away from other nations commanded of the Lord? No, that is how the world works and Jesus did not try to change it.

Only wars commanded of the Lord is wars led by a man of God. Revolutionary war and Civil war, in my humble opinion.

WW1 and 2 were foretold but not commanded.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:50 am Only wars commanded of the Lord is wars led by a man of God.

And even then, a "man of God" can still go to war having received no command from the Lord. All men are capable of committing unjust or unholy actions.

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:53 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:50 am Only wars commanded of the Lord is wars led by a man of God.

And even then, a "man of God" can still go to war having received no command from the Lord. All men are capable of committing unjust or unholy actions.

They are, let him, who is perfect, judge them.


I’ll be a man and celebrate the men who came before me and fought for what they thought was right.

Others can cry and sit on the sidelines because men has fought for those rights.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 12:15 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:53 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:50 am Only wars commanded of the Lord is wars led by a man of God.

And even then, a "man of God" can still go to war having received no command from the Lord. All men are capable of committing unjust or unholy actions.

They are, let him, who is perfect, judge them.


I’ll be a man and celebrate the men who came before me and fought for what they thought was right.

Others can cry and sit on the sidelines because men has fought for those rights.

So calling out unjust actions of wicked leaders/people is now sitting on the sidelines?

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 12:18 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 12:15 pm

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:53 am
And even then, a "man of God" can still go to war having received no command from the Lord. All men are capable of committing unjust or unholy actions.

They are, let him, who is perfect, judge them.


I’ll be a man and celebrate the men who came before me and fought for what they thought was right.

Others can cry and sit on the sidelines because men has fought for those rights.

So calling out unjust actions of wicked leaders/people is now sitting on the sidelines?

No, boycotting our Father’s who died for what they thought was right is weak.

I picked a nicer way of saying it.

creator wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 9:32 am Agreed. Nothing against the individuals who think they are doing what's right. We should renounce war and proclaim peace. Rarely has the U.S. been involved in a justifiable war. The U.S. is akin to the Roman Empire, we just don't officially call it an empire. It is. If you have "750 military base sites estimated in around 80+ foreign countries and colonies/territories" you're an empire.

Add a couple more... Coming soon...

"A battalion of 250 US Marines is conducting joint exercises with the Nyland Brigade in Syndalen, Hanko, on Finland's southernmost peninsula.

A significant defence cooperation agreement (DCA) between Finland and the United States is currently in the works. It would allow for the construction of US military infrastructure in Finland..."

https://yle.fi/a/74-20059246?utm_source ... n=ylefiapp

I feel nothing but sadness when I think of all the people who have suffered and died because of war and I don't have a problem using force to prevent someone from hurting another.

When I read the scriptures I hear a loving God calling out to His people to tell them He will take care of them if they take care of the poor and remember Him. Our Lord promises to protect us from our mortal enemies if we abide by His covenant. The problem is that we the LDS lack faith, and leadership. We promise in the temple to live the law of consecration but we are waiting for our drunken shepherds to take care of setting that up for us. That ain't gonna happen anytime soon but it is the law of Zion. Go and read 4 Nephi.

Mike

Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 9:01 am As the title suggests, I have a hard time celebrating Veterans Day. Not because I don't love and care for those who have lost lives in thinking they are doing good in the world, but because of the lies that have been told to send our men and women to battle. As a general observation, most military systems demand exact obedience to another person who holds authority over them. In some ways, you lose your autonomy. The very training required of an active military requires you to deny various truths in scripture. I've done a fair amount of study on the reasons why America has gone to war. While on the surface many of these actions seem quite justified, below the surface is where a lot of lies, greed, and corruption can be found.

And on that same note, I also have a hard time reciting the Pledge of Allegiance. I don't pledge my allegiance to a flag that stands as a symbol of the USA. I pledge my allegiance to God. I will support any nation that chooses to worship God and to live His laws. In the current state of things, the United States has become a symbol of Babylon. In some ways, a flag can become an idol in and of itself.

This is the problem with blind patriotism and worshipping symbols like the flag. They eventually lead people to rally around an "evil king". As if the American flag is currently being used to represent the founding principles of the country? No, it represents whatever the current government is doing.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:23 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:41 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:12 am People need to understand the if God truly did not want this to happen, it would not happen.

This is a false ideology. God allowing things does not equate to want. He wants us all to return to Him… but will that happen? No. Agency is a wonderful thing.

I understand your point of view of my words.

I said “did not want” I don’t mean he wanted them.

How many nukes could have gone off in the United States because of carelessness? At least 2 out of the 6 mishaps.

They did not go off because God did not want them to go off.

Obviously this is all my opinion.

Sure… but what I’m saying is very simple:

If God wants something, it may not happen. If he doesn’t want it, it may still happen.

His “want” can’t interfere with our agency.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 12:23 pm No, boycotting our Father’s who died for what they thought was right is weak.

I picked a nicer way of saying it.

Do you think this post is boycotting?

Put this into perspective, what if you fought in Iraq and Afghanistan and came to the realization that everything you went to war over was a lie?

I've done many things in my life, and followed many leaders, that weren't right. I'm glad when the scales of blind obedience are removed.

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 12:42 pm

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:23 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:41 am
This is a false ideology. God allowing things does not equate to want. He wants us all to return to Him… but will that happen? No. Agency is a wonderful thing.

I understand your point of view of my words.

I said “did not want” I don’t mean he wanted them.

How many nukes could have gone off in the United States because of carelessness? At least 2 out of the 6 mishaps.

They did not go off because God did not want them to go off.

Obviously this is all my opinion.

His “want” can’t interfere with our agency.

I disagree, Exodus 4:24

Anyone else besides Moses would have just dwindled in unbelief. Moses was going to die because he did not do what YHWH wanted. His wife had the free agency to do what Moses God wanted or let her husband die.

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:23 am

Gadianton Slayer wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:41 am

Bronco73idi wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:12 am People need to understand the if God truly did not want this to happen, it would not happen.

This is a false ideology. God allowing things does not equate to want. He wants us all to return to Him… but will that happen? No. Agency is a wonderful thing.

I understand your point of view of my words.

I said “did not want” I don’t mean he wanted them.

How many nukes could have gone off in the United States because of carelessness? At least 2 out of the 6 mishaps.

They did not go off because God did not want them to go off.

Obviously this is all my opinion.

According to some "in the know," it was extra-terrestrials that prevented them from going off.