LDS Freedom Forum

https://www.axios.com/2023/11/09/us-pop ... data-chart

No huge surprise, but the reality is, North Americans are no longer interested in being productive and reproductive, and are seemingly willing to be dependent upon the rest of the world for everything, including population growth.

But you never, ever hear the corporate Church and its leaders talk about family size any more.

tmac wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 6:00 am https://www.axios.com/2023/11/09/us-pop ... data-chart

No huge surprise, but the reality is, North Americans are no longer interested in being productive and reproductive, and are seemingly willing to be dependent upon the rest of the world for everything, including population growth.

But you never, ever hear the corporate Church and its leaders talk about family size any more.

The USA is trailing behind Europe and north east Asia on this. Europe's a total disaster demographically now and they use this as an excuse to bring in mass migration. (Often from areas which NATO has bombed out. Bad idea.)

Japan and italy are in a lot of trouble due to low birthrates. Scotland, Ireland, Portugal, Italy and Greece have haemorrhaged a lot of their natives away, while in more recent times having a mass influx of Africans. Entire villages are up for sale in Portugal. Japan is slowly being opened up for mass migration but not on the scale of Europe.

Latvia, Lithuania and some parts of Poland, Belarus, the Ukraine and Russia have also suffered mass flight of the young in the past twenty or thirty years. This has slowed down more recently. Some rural parts of Lithuania are particularly bad, because nearly all the youngsters had upped sticks and moved to western Europe.

China is still densely populated but is now dealing with the fallout from their defunct one-child policy.

In your opinion, why do you think the birthrate has fallen so low in these countries?

Subcomandante wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 6:37 am In your opinion, why do you think the birthrate has fallen so low in these countries?

The atomisation of society. People are more inclined to go after physical pleasure than long term duties. They also seem to prefer to look after animals than children. Also a hostile work environment, high cost of raising children etc.

There is also a level of infantilism. This is evident in Japan in kawaii culture. The Japanese were turned from a martial race into a collection of grown children in a few generations. The west has parallel phenomena.

I don't have any children of my own. There are several reasons for this but one of them is that I am horrified at the world I see emerging. I would fear for the children I'd bring into it... will they have work? Will they be brainwashed or turned into cyborgs? Or live under a terrible tyranny? I can't shake off those ideas. I find modern life disturbing enough as it is, but I have lived for decades. I wonder if my children would have much of a chance.

The other reason is that my relationships with women have been less than satisfactory. Sometimes the woman hasn't seen eye to eye with me, or sometimes I've liked the woman as a person but she is either not keen on having children, or has ideas that I'm not sure i'd want passed on to my children.

My guess is US popn is >> 335m right now. And high immigration seems more likely than medium immigration. So I don't see any population "bust", which is a term used by those who want to maintain the current corrupt, Ponzi-scheme politico-economic system.

Jashon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 7:55 am My guess is US popn is >> 335m right now. And high immigration seems more likely than medium immigration. So I don't see any population "bust", which is a term used by those who want to maintain the current corrupt, Ponzi-scheme politico-economic system.

Automation is the elephant in the room.

This is a topic I’m *very* interested in personally. Population growth is a key indicator of a nation’s or organization’s strength and one of the key factors that will determine its longevity and possibly reach. There are many factors that can potentially affect it though.

I believe there are people who want to capture most of the US population and control it and a smaller population is easier to control and this accounts for why you’re seeing this trend nationally. But I can’t say why the church seems so quiet about it. I’m thinking this is one reason they have dropped road shows and why ward activity budgets seem so tight though. I’m thinking they see it as throwing away money since their polls probably project growing dissatisfaction with the church as a whole regardless and less generational interest in religion as a whole anyways. It’s also a potential legal liability for them. Their relationship with the Boy Scouts proved disastrous and they don’t want to repeat that mistake. They’ve become *extremely* legally defensive and anticipatory lately imo. I think the lawyers have *significant* institutional control/capture along with the opinion pollers.

Demographic Winter. Produced by BYU TV in about 2008 to 2012. It explained the trajectory if things didn't change, and they have only changed for the ill.

Why would Americans of European descent have kids? They are taught that life is suffering and babies are better off being aborted than born. That the climate crisis will soon exact horrific suffering on humans. That they are personally responsible for all climate, social, and economic issues in the world. And that they are born into rasict sin that they can never atone for.

tmac wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 6:00 am https://www.axios.com/2023/11/09/us-pop ... data-chart

No huge surprise, but the reality is, North Americans are no longer interested in being productive and reproductive, and are seemingly willing to be dependent upon the rest of the world for everything, including population growth.

But you never, ever hear the corporate Church and its leaders talk about family size any more.

I have studied demographics for 15 years.

All charts are bunk. The UN appeared to publish somewhat accurate data in their population prospectus until about 2010/2012.

At which point the obvious became too obvious. So they began fudging the numbers. I'm not the only one to notice and point it out.

It is interesting that the author focuses on immigration instead of birth rate, or the two combined. It is the only real possibility we have for growth. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

It is my best guess we hit peak population in the USA in 2021/2022.

The old UN charts showed 2050 for peak world population on the low variant, but we have unfortunately come in way below that. Over the years I have slowly tightened my dates for peak world pop. I would guess 2030s at this point. It could be sooner however.

(High variant was calculated using half a child more than median, low valiant was half a child less.)

The benefit of demographics is, as long as the data is good, you can know the maximum number of people. What you can't know is the minimum.

Anything can lower population. Natural causes are the most obvious, but war, plague, social shifts can accelerate.

It is a little mind blowing to realize that it doesn't matter how many people in the earth, a million or 10 billion, they'll all be dead within 120 years. So unless people keep having babies. Humans are literally one generation from extinction.

The church actually did talk about declining birth rates for awhile. I feel like they got push back and stopped.

I use to wish people had more kids, but then parents got less and less responsible. Cruel to the kids. So I started encouraging people to prepare for the population collapse. People don't like that message. Some get very hostile.

I have loved seeing more public figure like Jordan Peterson and Elon Musk talking about this. The only problem is it is too little, too late.

I had hope for awhile that society would cycle back around to parenthood, but current data shows that is not happening.

Unfortunately, momentum matters and the car has almost rolled to a stop. It would take a serious effort to get it going again and that seems unlikely short of total societal and technological collapse.

This is not a problem for the next generation. The seeds were not planted. The summer is almost over and there will be little harvest. A famine is coming.

I'm not saying humans are going extinct, but we are going dormant.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 6:37 am In your opinion, why do you think the birthrate has fallen so low in these countries?

Couple of reasons: there's no benefit to having your own children anymore. Governments in those areas figured out ways to make family life expensive. used to be, you could buy a house for $7k, while making $2-4 / hr, and your wife could volunteer at the pta and bake cookies and make bread. But that was back when we had a gold standard. Health Care figured out how to fleece us at the hospital with $30k overnight stays. But it's ok: "insurance will cover it" (after you pay your deductible, monthly premium, cough up a lung, and only use drugs they approve of (not the ones your doctor prescribed)). Insurance is joke.

when I got a "real job" a few years back, I went to sign up for health insurance - cost for me at the time was $200 / mo. If I added my kids? another $200 / mo. Any amount of kids - 2 or 25 - it didn't matter - $200 / mo. so the total for me and the kids was $400 / mo. So then I entered my wife's info: $400 / mo. Wait - what? my wife is more expensive to add than 25 kids? you guys know how expensive childhood sicknesses, accidents, Rx, etc. are, right? I told the insurance rep at my company. Oh yes, she says, we know. So why does my wife - who never gets sick - cost double? She said, "because under Obamacare, your wife should get insurance through her employer." wow. so there's no incentive in a 1st world country for your wife to NOT have a job. After working a fulltime job, paying the credit card, student loans, groceries, hospital bills, house payment, car payment, internet, TV, utilities, pest control, and taxes, do you think either one of you feels like making babies? folks are too tired these days for that nonsense.

Children used to be "farm help". now they are just couch potatoes. so there's not really a benefit.

Let's see...what else..... oh yeah: women get child support, while men do not. So if I'm a modern man with no morals, and not a lot of money to waste, I guess I'll just get a vasectomy. Women are easy, right? liberated, burnt their bras, etc.

most of this bureaucratic mess doesn't exist in Africa, so their population is growing.

.
This is why the Border is wide open.
.
Something that the powers that be know.
.
The whole system would crash without immigration.

Subcomandante wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 6:37 am In your opinion, why do you think the birthrate has fallen so low in these countries?

Perhaps this is too broad for what you’re looking for, but I’d say the steady rise of secularism and hedonism.

As a reclusive introvert, there is a part of me that actually loves this.

Get off my lawn.

truefreedom wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 7:49 pm .
This is why the Border is wide open.
.
Something that the powers that be know.
.
The whole system would crash without immigration.

Militarized ‘immigrants’ distributing lethal drugs will further reduce the Caucasian population - especially those of reproductive age.

Grandparents were essential to families with lots of children - as caregivers & as teachers of life skills. As Elders in our western culture - instead of being revered as key to social wisdom & security - the medication conveyer belt erodes natural health crippling usefulness as we add years. If I had taken all the meds prescribed beginning at age 50 - I would have died before age-70. Seriously! Every one of those prescriptions have subsequently been found to be lethal or crippling. Many, are impossible to stop taking without horrific withdrawal outcomes.

The Big Boys are well along on lucifer’s agenda.

Clyde Lewis did his radio cast on Smart Cities last night. I read the transcript this morning. It describes the horrifying mechanisms being implemented to create their goal.

Hope the link below gets you to the text or access to his podcast

Curious how an ex’ed return missionary has managed to focus on uncomfortable realities impacting the very essence of free agency & guaranteed rights, including freedom of religious practice — scattered throughout his shows on the paranormal & conspiracy speculation. Often he nails it!

https://groundzeromedia.org/11-9-23-ein ... 99f59b0638

Subcomandante wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 6:37 am In your opinion, why do you think the birthrate has fallen so low in these countries?

1. Birth control pill.

In all seriousness though, in agrarian societies, children were somewhat of a financial asset. Once old enough, they could work the farm and help produce money for the family.
In modern society they are not a financial asset, but a financial liability.
When I was young, you could pile a bunch of kids into the back of a station wagon or the back of a truck, but you can’t do that now because everyone has to have a seatbelt on, and children have to be in a car seat until, oh, about age 9 or so. And the car seats take up a lot of room in the vehicle and they expire after a certain amount of time and have to be replaced. That’s just one example of how things have changed.
With stagnant wages and the recent inflation, it’s getting harder and harder for families to survive without some kind of assistance.

I've enjoyed reading your comments. I have four children and nine grandchildren and find myself worrying constantly about them. I've reached the point where I've accepted that Satan rules the world and that our governments, media, churches have all been taken over by the same people called Gadianton Robbers in the Book of Mormon. I've accepted that there is no government solution to our problem and that we and our governments are the problem. I'm sick of this place and I want out.

We have used the knowledge of the fallen angels to build factories that produce all sorts of wonderful and shiny gadgets. I remember lusting for an Apple II computer when they first came out; I was an idiot. Our lust for stuff has been a huge distraction. How much money is spent every year just to satisfy our vanity, let alone our needs? Branded clothing, cosmetics, shiny shoes, silk ties, that little black dress, hair dye, tattoos, nails that look like eagle talons... It goes on and on. Lambos, Ferraris, pools, boats, big houses, snowmobiles, cameras... All of this stuff costs money and while we labour 8-10+ hours per day at the desk or the production line or in sales or in shipping or in accounting... we leave our children in the hands of government employees to be brainwashed by leftist POS because as we know, it takes two salaries these days and raising kids is expensive. How can we afford another child? There's the mortgage, the car payment, the line of credit and then little Susie wants to go to college...

Mike

blitzinstripes wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 4:05 am As a reclusive introvert, there is a part of me that actually loves this.

Get off my lawn.

I would also consider myself a reclusive introvert and the part I like is watching what happens in the province of Quebec. Their hate towards English speaking people is palpable but their reproduction rates have lowered to the point where immigration is necessary to maintain/grow the population. Well guess what, most immigrants to Quebec can speak English but not French; heh heh

Mike

I know so many couples who struggle with infertility. It's hard to have a bunch of kids when you need medical help to get and stay pregnant.
It's all so expensive and mentally draining and exhausting. No one really understands unless they have walked the same path.

So, if we.wereleft.to our own devices, T. S. Eliot would be a prophet: (Would the last one out please close the door?)

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:37 am ...I remember lusting for an Apple II computer when they first came out; I was an idiot...

I really wanted one, too, and I earned one from delivering newspapers. It led to 44 years of intense learning and discovery.

When people think of Apple, they think of Steve Jobs and now that gay dude who can stare down "Mother Nature".

The genesis of Apple was the work Steve Wozniak did on the Apple II, which was TOTALLY different than everything that followed, starting with the Mac.

Wozniak is a gem of a man. He understands and supports freedom and agency. Those who came after him were the opposite.

The Apple II that Wozniak made was a super high-quality platform that really got things rolling. It was quality throughout including the ROM software and documentation. It was meant to be thoroughly understood and developed on. I figured that's just how computers were. Great!

When I got my first Mac, high on my Apple II experience, I couldn't find the manual that showed you how to program it. I thought I was going crazy. Where was it? Turns out Apple had done a 180 and was now going to enlist developers and only share information with them on programming the Mac. This was a spiritual travesty. I had no idea that this was even possible or anyone would come up with such a plan. It was foreshadowing for how the whole world would go, and in complete opposition to Steve Wozniak's original vision.

My next "other" computers were the Commodore VIC 20 and the Commodore 64. I couldn't figure out why they didn't work as well as the Apple II and why the ROM software was so poorly written. It turns out that Wozniak had set a standard that was as high as anyone could reach. That made the Apple II the very positive development that it was.

When I got my first IBM-type PC, it was overwhelmingly apparent that the vision behind it was ABYSMAL and it was NO FUN.

So, good technology is possible. The problem is that it's mostly getting coopted to manipulate and surveil people these days, building the beast system. Wozniak had Heavenly inspiration, though. He did things better than anyone, since.

Chip wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:56 am

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:37 am ...I remember lusting for an Apple II computer when they first came out; I was an idiot...

I really wanted one, too, and I earned one from delivering newspapers. It led to 44 years of intense learning and discovery.

When people think of Apple, they think of Steve Jobs and now that gay dude who can stare down "Mother Nature".

The genesis of Apple was the work Steve Wozniak did on the Apple II, which was TOTALLY different than everything that followed, starting with the Mac.

Wozniak is a gem of a man. He understands and supports freedom and agency. Those who came after him were the opposite.

The Apple II that Wozniak made was a super high-quality platform that really got things rolling. It was quality throughout including the ROM software and documentation. It was meant to be thoroughly understood and developed on. I figured that's just how computers were. Great!

When I got my first Mac, high on my Apple II experience, I couldn't find the manual that showed you how to program it. I thought I was going crazy. Where was it? Turns out Apple had done a 180 and was now going to enlist developers and only share information with them on programming the Mac. This was a spiritual travesty. I had no idea that this was even possible or anyone would come up with such a plan. It was foreshadowing for how the whole world would go, and in complete opposition to Steve Wozniak's original vision.

My next "other" computers were the Commodore VIC 20 and the Commodore 64. I couldn't figure out why they didn't work as well as the Apple II and why the ROM software was so poorly written. It turns out that Wozniak had set a standard that was as high as anyone could reach. That made the Apple II the very positive development that it was.

When I got my first IBM-type PC, it was overwhelmingly apparent that the vision behind it was ABYSMAL and it was NO FUN.

So, good technology is possible. The problem is that it's mostly getting coopted to manipulate and surveil people these days, building the beast system. Wozniak had a Heavenly vision, though. He did things better than anyone, since.

Did you use HyperCard? I'm not sure who wrote that but I used it quite a bit when working in a science centre in the 90s. It was quite powerful and was included with every Mac. It didn't support colour and we had some other software that was an imitation called SuperCard that handled colour but it was buggy. This was in the OS 8 and 9 days.

Mike

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 12:05 pm

Chip wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:56 am

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 10:37 am ...I remember lusting for an Apple II computer when they first came out; I was an idiot...

I really wanted one, too, and I earned one from delivering newspapers. It led to 44 years of intense learning and discovery.

When people think of Apple, they think of Steve Jobs and now that gay dude who can stare down "Mother Nature".

The genesis of Apple was the work Steve Wozniak did on the Apple II, which was TOTALLY different than everything that followed, starting with the Mac.

Wozniak is a gem of a man. He understands and supports freedom and agency. Those who came after him were the opposite.

The Apple II that Wozniak made was a super high-quality platform that really got things rolling. It was quality throughout including the ROM software and documentation. It was meant to be thoroughly understood and developed on. I figured that's just how computers were. Great!

When I got my first Mac, high on my Apple II experience, I couldn't find the manual that showed you how to program it. I thought I was going crazy. Where was it? Turns out Apple had done a 180 and was now going to enlist developers and only share information with them on programming the Mac. This was a spiritual travesty. I had no idea that this was even possible or anyone would come up with such a plan. It was foreshadowing for how the whole world would go, and in complete opposition to Steve Wozniak's original vision.

My next "other" computers were the Commodore VIC 20 and the Commodore 64. I couldn't figure out why they didn't work as well as the Apple II and why the ROM software was so poorly written. It turns out that Wozniak had set a standard that was as high as anyone could reach. That made the Apple II the very positive development that it was.

When I got my first IBM-type PC, it was overwhelmingly apparent that the vision behind it was ABYSMAL and it was NO FUN.

So, good technology is possible. The problem is that it's mostly getting coopted to manipulate and surveil people these days, building the beast system. Wozniak had a Heavenly vision, though. He did things better than anyone, since.

Did you use HyperCard? I'm not sure who wrote that but I used it quite a bit when working in a science centre in the 90s. It was quite powerful and was included with every Mac. It didn't support colour and we had some other software that was an imitation called SuperCard that handled colour but it was buggy. This was in the OS 8 and 9 days.

Mike

I didn't use HyperCard. I used a PCB layout program and PageMaker, primarily. We eventually had to switch to PC's because that's where the action was in embedded systems.

Chip wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 4:30 pm

MikeMaillet wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 12:05 pm

Chip wrote: ↑November 10th, 2023, 11:56 am


I really wanted one, too, and I earned one from delivering newspapers. It led to 44 years of intense learning and discovery.

When people think of Apple, they think of Steve Jobs and now that gay dude who can stare down "Mother Nature".

The genesis of Apple was the work Steve Wozniak did on the Apple II, which was TOTALLY different than everything that followed, starting with the Mac.

Wozniak is a gem of a man. He understands and supports freedom and agency. Those who came after him were the opposite.

The Apple II that Wozniak made was a super high-quality platform that really got things rolling. It was quality throughout including the ROM software and documentation. It was meant to be thoroughly understood and developed on. I figured that's just how computers were. Great!

When I got my first Mac, high on my Apple II experience, I couldn't find the manual that showed you how to program it. I thought I was going crazy. Where was it? Turns out Apple had done a 180 and was now going to enlist developers and only share information with them on programming the Mac. This was a spiritual travesty. I had no idea that this was even possible or anyone would come up with such a plan. It was foreshadowing for how the whole world would go, and in complete opposition to Steve Wozniak's original vision.

My next "other" computers were the Commodore VIC 20 and the Commodore 64. I couldn't figure out why they didn't work as well as the Apple II and why the ROM software was so poorly written. It turns out that Wozniak had set a standard that was as high as anyone could reach. That made the Apple II the very positive development that it was.

When I got my first IBM-type PC, it was overwhelmingly apparent that the vision behind it was ABYSMAL and it was NO FUN.

So, good technology is possible. The problem is that it's mostly getting coopted to manipulate and surveil people these days, building the beast system. Wozniak had a Heavenly vision, though. He did things better than anyone, since.

Did you use HyperCard? I'm not sure who wrote that but I used it quite a bit when working in a science centre in the 90s. It was quite powerful and was included with every Mac. It didn't support colour and we had some other software that was an imitation called SuperCard that handled colour but it was buggy. This was in the OS 8 and 9 days.

Mike

I didn't use HyperCard. I used a PCB layout program and PageMaker, primarily. We eventually had to switch to PC's because that's where the action was in embedded systems.

I remember being a big fan of PageMaker

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 8:25 am This is a topic I’m *very* interested in personally. Population growth is a key indicator of a nation’s or organization’s strength and one of the key factors that will determine its longevity and possibly reach. There are many factors that can potentially affect it though.

I believe there are people who want to capture most of the US population and control it and a smaller population is easier to control and this accounts for why you’re seeing this trend nationally. But I can’t say why the church seems so quiet about it. I’m thinking this is one reason they have dropped road shows and why ward activity budgets seem so tight though. I’m thinking they see it as throwing away money since their polls probably project growing dissatisfaction with the church as a whole regardless and less generational interest in religion as a whole anyways. It’s also a potential legal liability for them. Their relationship with the Boy Scouts proved disastrous and they don’t want to repeat that mistake. They’ve become *extremely* legally defensive and anticipatory lately imo. I think the lawyers have *significant* institutional control/capture along with the opinion pollers.

The reason the church does not come out against the satanic agendas like population reduction is because they are for it. They actually think satan will win. They finance satan and profited greatly from the population reducing jab. They hoard the cash because God has no need for it, but satan does.

Name something Christlike the church has spent a hundred million or more dollars on in the last 50 years.