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POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 8th, 2023, 9:04 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
Each voter can choose up to 5 options but please be careful not choose conflicting options obviously. This poll will run for 10 days.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 8th, 2023, 9:53 pm
by Chip
They do it all these days - accommodation, inclusion, the occasional warning. It's a rainbow tent, a freight train going down a hill with worn-out breaks.
“I Have to Be All Things to All People” -Jim Jones
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 8th, 2023, 10:00 pm
by Subcomandante
I think the option that best describes it is the part where the official stance hasn't really changed but the way they talk about it is definitely a lot softer than what it was before.
It also depends on a ward-by-ward level. Try defending the Family Proclamation in the Bay Area wards or in BYU, versus rural central Mexico. Night and day difference in the reaction.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 8th, 2023, 10:24 pm
by randyps
Virtual church is the answer, log in from home to see only the bishop talk without having to sit behind a gay couple in the pews.
Plandemic was exactly that, God planned and Godsend.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 5:10 am
by Niemand
They give contradictory opinions on the matter such as that silly thing about children of (a) gay parent(s) which was ill thought out.
BKP's death was probably a major watershed moment.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 7:09 am
by Christianlee
So many of its young people (even the straight ones) have become pro-LGBQT they are afraid to offend them for fear of losing a generation.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 7:32 am
by Rubicon
While there has been waffling and inconsistency from top Church leadership on this (threading the PR needle), happily, the Church institutionally has not caved on this yet. Happily, the dike is still holding (pun intended).
I think this is a feature of our very old top leadership, and I'm not placing bets as to decades down the road when we no longer have top leadership born before or during WW2. But, I think things are moving so rapidly, I'm not sure how much time is left before the "winding up stage."
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 8:05 am
by gradles21
The church literally supports "gay marriage" now, which was a prerequisite for the church's doctrine to change on this issue. It's no longer a matter of if but when their doctrine changes.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 8:30 am
by fractal_light_harvest
Chip wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 9:53 pm
They do it all these days - accommodation, inclusion, the occasional warning. It's a rainbow tent, a freight train going down a hill with worn-out breaks.
“I Have to Be All Things to All People” -Jim Jones
I agree. I think by trying to appease everyone they might just end up alienating most of their core members.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 9:49 am
by Korsgaard46
My family and friends tell me it isn't happening as proven by speeches given in GC. I say, look at what's going on in the real world.
BYU's Humanity department for starters.
Do a search on LDS Living and see all the pro LGBTQ articles.
https://www.ldsliving.com/search?q=lgbtq&p=1
For $15 dollars you can pay the Church to teach you how to be an ally to the gays.
https://seek.deseretbook.com/p/building ... n-schilaty
Florida "don't say gay" law that prevents teachers from teaching sex ed up through grade 4, the Church decided to side with the pedos on this one.
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/9/13 ... in-florida
And then of course the Church supporting the pro-Gay Marriage act.
https://apnews.com/article/religion-rel ... 98a199b860
Or the Church openly condemning it's members for standing up and protecting their children against pedos.
https://www.postregister.com/news/local ... a2ea2.html
"But The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a statement Tuesday that took issue with Saturday’s sit-in protest and the involvement of some LDS church members.
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not sanction or support these protests. Our faith does not support divisive or hateful behavior toward our brothers and sisters. We strive to follow the example of Jesus Christ to love one another,” said Cameron D. Brower, Chubbuck Idaho Stake president and the local representative for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in Tuesday’s statement."
So when members say the Church will not allow same-sex marriage ever, I just point them to the undercurrent that's pulling them along.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 10:04 am
by fractal_light_harvest
At over 100 votes but under 125 the top 3 options are
- The lds church is intentionally ambiguous on the LGBTQ topic — 18%
- LDS church has become noticeably less stringent against it. — 15 %
- BYU and other church entities are testing grounds to see how members will respond to this issue — 13%
All other options are below these percentages but so far the results are well distributed with most options atleast having one vote.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 10:17 am
by Chip
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 8:30 am
Chip wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 9:53 pm
They do it all these days - accommodation, inclusion, the occasional warning. It's a rainbow tent, a freight train going down a hill with worn-out breaks.
“I Have to Be All Things to All People” -Jim Jones
I agree. I think by trying to appease everyone they might just end up alienating most of their core members.
I think their unrepentent vaxx endorsement and their personal partaking of the Satanic elixir has left them commonly damaged and blinded. They know not what they do, anymore. Babylon looks normal to them. Satan seduced them with riches and phony wisdom.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 10:32 am
by Telavian
The LDS church has historically gone along with the world so that it can continue to do "God's work". I think over time this will include women in the Priesthood and some degree of acceptance of LGBT marriages. I would be shocked if the LDS church draw a line and didn't cross it eventually.
It does become a bit more nuanced though because with issues like Blacks in the Priesthood, then allowing ordination in this case was seen as caving to social pressure, however I think it was going back to truth.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 10:46 am
by fractal_light_harvest
Telavian wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 10:32 am
The LDS church has historically gone along with the world so that it can continue to do "God's work". I think over time this will include women in the Priesthood and some degree of acceptance of LGBT marriages. I would be shocked if the LDS church draw a line and didn't cross it eventually.
It does become a bit more nuanced though because with issues like Blacks in the Priesthood, then allowing ordination in this case was seen as caving to social pressure, however I think it was going back to truth.
I’m thinking this is almost undeniably true. Modern church history makes this trend pretty evident to my mind.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 11:31 am
by OPMissionary
Christianlee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 7:09 am
So many of its young people (even the straight ones) have become pro-LGBQT they are afraid to offend them for fear of losing a generation.
Even that's overstated. The youth of the church are overwhelmingly conservative.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 11:33 am
by Godislove
OPMissionary wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:31 am
Christianlee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 7:09 am
So many of its young people (even the straight ones) have become pro-LGBQT they are afraid to offend them for fear of losing a generation.
Even that's overstated. The youth of the church are overwhelmingly conservative.
From my own personal experience with some youth, I don't feel that's overstated.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 11:40 am
by BigFootCain
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 8:30 am
Chip wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 9:53 pm
They do it all these days - accommodation, inclusion, the occasional warning. It's a rainbow tent, a freight train going down a hill with worn-out breaks.
“I Have to Be All Things to All People” -Jim Jones
I agree. I think by trying to appease everyone they might just end up alienating most of their core members.
That's certainly how I felt when I first started pulling my head out of my rear end and waking up to what was happening with Church leadership. My initial struggles were in large part how they were handling this LGBT issue and forsaking truth to appease leftists and others who didn't understand the Gospel and Plan of Salvation. I felt they were trying to help these people who obviously didn't care for or believe in the Church much anyway, and forsaking those that actually were valiant members doing their best to follow the Gospel and uphold the truth.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 11:44 am
by Christianlee
OPMissionary wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:31 am
Christianlee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 7:09 am
So many of its young people (even the straight ones) have become pro-LGBQT they are afraid to offend them for fear of losing a generation.
Even that's overstated. The youth of the church are overwhelmingly conservative.
Young people includes college graduates. They seem to change at college. Even at BYU many of them come out liberal.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 11:51 am
by fractal_light_harvest
Christianlee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:44 am
OPMissionary wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:31 am
Christianlee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 7:09 am
So many of its young people (even the straight ones) have become pro-LGBQT they are afraid to offend them for fear of losing a generation.
Even that's overstated. The youth of the church are overwhelmingly conservative.
Young people includes college graduates. They seem to change at college. Even at BYU many of them come out liberal.
My guess is there is still a decent base of conservative youth in the church but the tide does seem to be significantly turning away from this and and at this point I don't know what the numbers would say personally. I don't see the conservative mindset gaining any significant ground back in the church in the coming days though, especially among the youth, only losing it.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 11:54 am
by Rubicon
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:51 am
My guess is there is still a decent base of conservative youth in the church but the tide does seem to be significantly turning away from this and and at this point I don't know what the numbers would say personally. I don't see the conservative mindset gaining any significant ground back in the church in the coming days though, especially among the youth, only losing it.
The problem, I think, is that modern conservative youth are riding on parents/grandparents' coattails, and don't know themselves why they are conservative. They haven't thought much about it. They don't feel it in their soul. So, under withering pressure in the world, at school, and increasingly in the Church, they cede ground and their conservativism gets eroded away.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 11:57 am
by fractal_light_harvest
Korsgaard46 wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 9:49 am
My family and friends tell me it isn't happening as proven by speeches given in GC. I say, look at what's going on in the real world.
BYU's Humanity department for starters.
Do a search on LDS Living and see all the pro LGBTQ articles.
https://www.ldsliving.com/search?q=lgbtq&p=1
For $15 dollars you can pay the Church to teach you how to be an ally to the gays.
https://seek.deseretbook.com/p/building ... n-schilaty
Florida "don't say gay" law that prevents teachers from teaching sex ed up through grade 4, the Church decided to side with the pedos on this one.
https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/9/13 ... in-florida
And then of course the Church supporting the pro-Gay Marriage act.
https://apnews.com/article/religion-rel ... 98a199b860
Or the Church openly condemning it's members for standing up and protecting their children against pedos.
https://www.postregister.com/news/local ... a2ea2.html
"But The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a statement Tuesday that took issue with Saturday’s sit-in protest and the involvement of some LDS church members.
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not sanction or support these protests. Our faith does not support divisive or hateful behavior toward our brothers and sisters. We strive to follow the example of Jesus Christ to love one another,” said Cameron D. Brower, Chubbuck Idaho Stake president and the local representative for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in Tuesday’s statement."
So when members say the Church will not allow same-sex marriage ever, I just point them to the undercurrent that's pulling them along.
This is a great point. Its almost like the leaders say one thing in official channels even as the subsidiaries of the church say another! I think they must know GC is going to be better paid attention to be by the older membership base and "pop culture" publications and social trends by the younger members. it does seem to be an attempt of trying to have your cake and eat it too imo.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 11:59 am
by Juliet
The third option:
Yes and no, the church’s *official* stance remains the same but it’s unofficial or implied stance has changed or is changing
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 12:02 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:54 am
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:51 am
My guess is there is still a decent base of conservative youth in the church but the tide does seem to be significantly turning away from this and and at this point I don't know what the numbers would say personally. I don't see the conservative mindset gaining any significant ground back in the church in the coming days though, especially among the youth, only losing it.
The problem, I think, is that modern conservative youth are riding on parents/grandparents' coattails, and don't know themselves why they are conservative. They haven't thought much about it. They don't feel it in their soul. So, under withering pressure in the world, at school, and increasingly in the Church, they cede ground and their conservativism gets eroded away.
Yes I'm thinking this is very likely. But at the same time my experience is that youth are infantilized in the church to avoid the risk of them straying. So I don't see how to resolve this issue personally.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 1:19 pm
by Rubicon
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 12:02 pm
Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:54 am
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:51 am
My guess is there is still a decent base of conservative youth in the church but the tide does seem to be significantly turning away from this and and at this point I don't know what the numbers would say personally. I don't see the conservative mindset gaining any significant ground back in the church in the coming days though, especially among the youth, only losing it.
The problem, I think, is that modern conservative youth are riding on parents/grandparents' coattails, and don't know themselves why they are conservative. They haven't thought much about it. They don't feel it in their soul. So, under withering pressure in the world, at school, and increasingly in the Church, they cede ground and their conservativism gets eroded away.
Yes I'm thinking this is very likely. But at the same time my experience is that youth are infantilized in the church to avoid the risk of them straying. So I don't see how to resolve this issue personally.
The only resolution is for individual families to transmit their values to their successive generations. They can't rely on the Church or Church culture to do it for them.
My family has seen firsthand the power of outsized influence and spheres of influence in the Church. It is possible for modern-day "Gideon's army" (small in size, but large in influence) to continue to exert influence and to help people want to be and have what they are. And if the Church falls apart (which I believe is prophesied, with the fulfilling of the times of the Gentiles), those families and those within their influence keep the fire of faith burning on the altars of their hearts.
Re: POLL: Is the church “caving” on the issue of homosexuality and/or related LGBTQ normalization? Choose 5 options
Posted: November 9th, 2023, 1:26 pm
by spiritMan
Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 1:19 pm
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 12:02 pm
Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:54 am
The problem, I think, is that modern conservative youth are riding on parents/grandparents' coattails, and don't know themselves why they are conservative. They haven't thought much about it. They don't feel it in their soul. So, under withering pressure in the world, at school, and increasingly in the Church, they cede ground and their conservativism gets eroded away.
Yes I'm thinking this is very likely. But at the same time my experience is that youth are infantilized in the church to avoid the risk of them straying. So I don't see how to resolve this issue personally.
The only resolution is for individual families to transmit their values to their successive generations. They can't rely on the Church or Church culture to do it for them.
Impossible.
It requires a community to instill values into the next generation; family is not good enough on it's own. It's just not.