LDS Freedom Forum

Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:54 am
The problem, I think, is that modern conservative youth are riding on parents/grandparents' coattails, and don't know themselves why they are conservative. They haven't thought much about it. They don't feel it in their soul. So, under withering pressure in the world, at school, and increasingly in the Church, they cede ground and their conservativism gets eroded away.

Just yesterday, a student in my upper-level German class asked me what a conservative is. My class is full of very conservative students (only two are LDS), and a couple of them heard the conversation (it was on the way out the door between class periods). He was trying to hang conservatism and liberalism on hooks in his mind. I told him that conservatives seek to "conserve" tradition and traditional values, while "progressives/liberals" seek to change them (in an nutshell). He asked about abortion, and I said I was anti-abortion, but liberals are pro-abortion. He was surprised, because he thought that all reasonable, good, thinking people are of course pro-abortion (he's not LDS). I mentioned guns as another issue (conservatives pro, liberals anti). Two other students were hanging around and contributing to the very brief, on-the-run conversation.

Most LDS families, just like most families, don't discuss politics, history, worldview, philosophy, etc. very much, and the societal currents lead firmly to liberalism. I try to do what good I can, without getting into trouble. Happily, I am in a very conservative school system (from the top), but the families feeding into it are increasingly more liberal as a default setting.

What about that gay choir that performed at our Temple's visitor centre about one year ago? https://affirmation.org/gayety-at-the-t ... rs-center/

Mike

I think a better question to ask is, does the church support the global depopulation initiative?

The gay agenda is just another name for population control. TPTB aren’t pandering to the gay community because they care about their feelings. They’re doing it because homosexual’s reproduce far less than heterosexual’s (obviously)!

If the church supports depopulation, then they absolutely support the gay agenda.

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 1:57 pm I think a better question to ask is, does the church support the global depopulation initiative?

The gay agenda is just another name for population control. TPTB aren’t pandering to the gay community because they care about their feelings. They’re doing it because homosexual’s reproduce far less than heterosexual’s (obviously)!

If the church supports depopulation, then they absolutely support the gay agenda.

Depopulation is institutional suicide for the Church, though. Falling birth rates will have catastrophic effects on Church demographics. Third-world countries, where the population control initiatives are in vogue from elites, are what is propping up Church growth statistics.

Why would the Church support depopulation?

I really believe that our current leaders mostly support (really support --- that is, really believe) the principles in the Proclamation.

Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 2:08 pm

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 1:57 pm I think a better question to ask is, does the church support the global depopulation initiative?

The gay agenda is just another name for population control. TPTB aren’t pandering to the gay community because they care about their feelings. They’re doing it because homosexual’s reproduce far less than heterosexual’s (obviously)!

If the church supports depopulation, then they absolutely support the gay agenda.

Depopulation is institutional suicide for the Church, though. Falling birth rates will have catastrophic effects on Church demographics. Third-world countries, where the population control initiatives are in vogue from elites, are what is propping up Church growth statistics.

Why would the Church support depopulation?

I really believe that our current leaders mostly support (really support --- that is, really believe) the principles in the Proclamation.

I think they're trying to straddle these two things personally and that's why we see so much dissonance. They desperately want the church to grow but also want to buddy up with larger global entities and international think tanks and agendas to grow the church's global name and reach. They want to have their cake and eat it too is what I'm seeing.

They also don't want to lose any remaining influence they have over the youth so they cater to their social ideals at times even against correct principles because if the youth leave then they've left 'the covenant" in leaderships minds and will go to hell.

Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 2:08 pm

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 1:57 pm I think a better question to ask is, does the church support the global depopulation initiative?

The gay agenda is just another name for population control. TPTB aren’t pandering to the gay community because they care about their feelings. They’re doing it because homosexual’s reproduce far less than heterosexual’s (obviously)!

If the church supports depopulation, then they absolutely support the gay agenda.

Depopulation is institutional suicide for the Church, though. Falling birth rates will have catastrophic effects on Church demographics. Third-world countries, where the population control initiatives are in vogue from elites, are what is propping up Church growth statistics.

Why would the Church support depopulation?

I really believe that our current leaders mostly support (really support --- that is, really believe) the principles in the Proclamation.

“Why would the Church support depopulation?”

Because they fully support, and are under the complete control of the United Nations!

Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 1:26 pm

Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:54 am
The problem, I think, is that modern conservative youth are riding on parents/grandparents' coattails, and don't know themselves why they are conservative. They haven't thought much about it. They don't feel it in their soul. So, under withering pressure in the world, at school, and increasingly in the Church, they cede ground and their conservativism gets eroded away.

Just yesterday, a student in my upper-level German class asked me what a conservative is. My class is full of very conservative students (only two are LDS), and a couple of them heard the conversation (it was on the way out the door between class periods). He was trying to hang conservatism and liberalism on hooks in his mind. I told him that conservatives seek to "conserve" tradition and traditional values, while "progressives/liberals" seek to change them (in an nutshell). He asked about abortion, and I said I was anti-abortion, but liberals are pro-abortion. He was surprised, because he thought that all reasonable, good, thinking people are of course pro-abortion (he's not LDS). I mentioned guns as another issue (conservatives pro, liberals anti). Two other students were hanging around and contributing to the very brief, on-the-run conversation.

Most LDS families, just like most families, don't discuss politics, history, worldview, philosophy, etc. very much, and the societal currents lead firmly to liberalism. I try to do what good I can, without getting into trouble. Happily, I am in a very conservative school system (from the top), but the families feeding into it are increasingly more liberal as a default setting.

True. Watching TV, movies, going to school, hanging out with friends. All of these things can influence a person to become liberal and/or pro LGBTQ.

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 2:15 pm
Because they fully support, and are under the complete control of the United Nations!

I think "fully support" and "under the complete control of the United Nations" is hyperbolic nonsense. Yes, the Church is currying favor with the elite powers that be, but it isn't as extreme as you and others portray. As it approaches that extreme, even those who might want to know that it would cause huge problems with more and more not-as-conservative people in the Church. The frog couldn't be boiled in the pot slowly enough.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 2:14 pm
I think they're trying to straddle these two things personally and that's why we see so much dissonance. They desperately want the church to grow but also want to buddy up with larger global entities and international think tanks and agendas to grow the church's global name and reach. They want to have their cake and eat it too is what I'm seeing.

They also don't want to lose any remaining influence they have over the youth so they cater to their social ideals at times even against correct principles because if the youth leave then they've left 'the covenant" in leaderships minds and will go to hell.

Agreed.

I think (or at least hope) that the pendulum will swing back the other way as they come to terms with the fact that not emphasizing standards and trying to avoid guilt at all costs among the young doesn't actually keep them "in the boat."

At 150+ votes the top 3 choices now are

• The church is *intentionally* ambiguous on the LGBTQ topic and gives conflicting advice and teachings on it -- 19%

• Yes and no, the church’s *official* stance remains the same but it’s unofficial or implied stance has changed or is changing -- 14%

• The church has become noticeably less stringent against the practice -- 14%

At 185+ votes the top 3 choices now are

• The church is *intentionally* ambiguous on the LGBTQ topic and gives conflicting advice and teachings on it -- 19%

• The church’s *official* stance remains the same but it’s unofficial or implied stance has changed or is changing -- 15%

• The church has become noticeably less stringent against the practice -- 15%

Other results were

• 59% of the vote (but likely a higher percentage of people since people could choose 5 options) believe the church has caved on the LGBTQ issue in some way.

• 22% of the votes indicated the church is running polling or testing the waters in some capacity on this issue

• 3% of the vote indicates the church has stayed consistent

• No one believes the church has become more outspoken against the practice

At just under 200 votes total (each person could vote for up to 5 options) I believe the key takeaways from this poll are that there’s a forum consensus that the lds church is

a) ambiguous or unclear on its stance toward this issue and

b) this confusion *mostly* comes from the church softening its take on the issue in confusing or unofficial ways at some times but attempting to maintain the status quo at others

I voted for this: "Not sure, I believe the leadership is not in agreement on this issue themselves and this is reflected in church teachings at times, which can be confusing or contradictory on this issue."

Only I might strike both instances of "this issue" and replace with "any issue."

Caffeinated soft drinks, human evolution, Sabbath day observance, gambling, Word of Wisdom, abortion, Noah's flood, Cumorah, temple garments vis-à-vis other underwear—any possible issue you could name, it's all a mishmash of conflicting opinions among those in charge.

In this satirical look at christianity abandoning its moral biblical code in favor of following a worldly political agenda, the tongue-in-cheek Babylon Bee reports that:

"I don't think saving the lives of babies is a political matter — " one church member began to say before being excommunicated for overt-politicalness.

"Look, it's not hard! The church is not of this world, therefore it should never have any noticeable effect on the world whatsoever," answered Rev. Elymas. "Unless we're talking about supporting BLM. Or attending a pride parade. Or handing out pre-filled Democratic ballots with communion so that our local tax levy to give the poor free electric scooters will pass. Those are different, obviously."

Here's a link to the full Babylon Bee Article:

https://babylonbee.com/news/church-shou ... n-building

Note: you know you're losing the argument (in this case Christian churches going woke, supporting LGBTQ issues, and going silent on the evils of those practices), when you're the butt of jokes. Well done Babylon Bee. Keep poking fun until christians (especially Mormons) wake up from being woke. And just in case we want to justify going silent on sensitive moral issues like this in order to keep the peace in society and family I offer these words of Jesus: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

captainfearnot wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 10:17 am I voted for this: "Not sure, I believe the leadership is not in agreement on this issue themselves and this is reflected in church teachings at times, which can be confusing or contradictory on this issue."

Only I might strike both instances of "this issue" and replace with "any issue."

Caffeinated soft drinks, human evolution, Sabbath day observance, gambling, Word of Wisdom, abortion, Noah's flood, Cumorah, temple garments vis-à-vis other underwear—any possible issue you could name, it's all a mishmash of conflicting opinions among those in charge.

That’s valid I think. Appreciate the input.

This is an automatic translation.
I believe there will be a major split in the church membership before the construction of the New Jerusalem.
The majority conservatives, who support the President, and the minority liberals.
The liberals will be less than a third.
Some of the leaders may be liberals.
I think this is a big sieve.
I do not believe that the Church's doctrine or policy on sacred points will change significantly.
I do not believe there will be same-sex temple marriages.
Under church rules, people who have undergone gender reassignment surgery cannot be baptized.

hideki wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 5:24 pm This is an automatic translation.
I believe there will be a major split in the church membership before the construction of the New Jerusalem.
The majority conservatives, who support the President, and the minority liberals.
The liberals will be less than a third.
Some of the leaders may be liberals.
I think this is a big sieve.
I do not believe that the Church's doctrine or policy on sacred points will change significantly.
I do not believe there will be same-sex temple marriages.
Under church rules, people who have undergone gender reassignment surgery cannot be baptized.

Interesting.

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 2:15 pm

Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 2:08 pm

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 1:57 pm I think a better question to ask is, does the church support the global depopulation initiative?

The gay agenda is just another name for population control. TPTB aren’t pandering to the gay community because they care about their feelings. They’re doing it because homosexual’s reproduce far less than heterosexual’s (obviously)!

If the church supports depopulation, then they absolutely support the gay agenda.

Depopulation is institutional suicide for the Church, though. Falling birth rates will have catastrophic effects on Church demographics. Third-world countries, where the population control initiatives are in vogue from elites, are what is propping up Church growth statistics.

Why would the Church support depopulation?

I really believe that our current leaders mostly support (really support --- that is, really believe) the principles in the Proclamation.

“Why would the Church support depopulation?”

Because they fully support, and are under the complete control of the United Nations!

they fully support depopulation
they have used billions$$$$ of tithing funds - FOR DECADES --on VAXXX programs around the world
they are super proud of it, too ---part of their great and spacious global citizenry HUMANITARIAN AID
they declare partnership with many "charitable" orgs that can do whatever they wish with the money (IE "light world" vending machines..)
these benevolent, holy entities flood the world with free-for all abortions - contraceptives of every sort -- bet those can come out of vending machines, too
under eubank's careful watch

TwochurchesOnly wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 10:51 am

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 2:15 pm

Rubicon wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 2:08 pm

Depopulation is institutional suicide for the Church, though. Falling birth rates will have catastrophic effects on Church demographics. Third-world countries, where the population control initiatives are in vogue from elites, are what is propping up Church growth statistics.

Why would the Church support depopulation?

I really believe that our current leaders mostly support (really support --- that is, really believe) the principles in the Proclamation.

“Why would the Church support depopulation?”

Because they fully support, and are under the complete control of the United Nations!

they fully support depopulation
they have used billions$$$$ of tithing funds - FOR DECADES --on VAXXX programs around the world
they are super proud of it, too ---part of their great and spacious global citizenry HUMANITARIAN AID
they declare partnership with many "charitable" orgs that can do whatever they wish with the money (IE "light world" vending machines..)
these benevolent, holy entities flood the world with free-for all abortions - contraceptives of every sort -- bet those can come out of vending machines, too
under eubank's careful watch

It’s just sad that so many choose not to see it.

“they have used billions$$$$ of tithing funds”

And anyone still paying “tithes” to the LDS corp has blood on their hands.

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 11:38 am

TwochurchesOnly wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 10:51 am

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 2:15 pm

“Why would the Church support depopulation?”

Because they fully support, and are under the complete control of the United Nations!

they fully support depopulation
they have used billions$$$$ of tithing funds - FOR DECADES --on VAXXX programs around the world
they are super proud of it, too ---part of their great and spacious global citizenry HUMANITARIAN AID
they declare partnership with many "charitable" orgs that can do whatever they wish with the money (IE "light world" vending machines..)
these benevolent, holy entities flood the world with free-for all abortions - contraceptives of every sort -- bet those can come out of vending machines, too
under eubank's careful watch

It’s just sad that so many choose not to see it.

“they have used billions$$$$ of tithing funds”

And anyone still paying “tithes” to the LDS corp has blood on their hands.

It is sad imo.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 10:55 am

captainfearnot wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 10:17 am I voted for this: "Not sure, I believe the leadership is not in agreement on this issue themselves and this is reflected in church teachings at times, which can be confusing or contradictory on this issue."

Only I might strike both instances of "this issue" and replace with "any issue."

Caffeinated soft drinks, human evolution, Sabbath day observance, gambling, Word of Wisdom, abortion, Noah's flood, Cumorah, temple garments vis-à-vis other underwear—any possible issue you could name, it's all a mishmash of conflicting opinions among those in charge.

That’s valid I think. Appreciate the input.

I agree. Doctrine and Covenants 101 speaks of the leadership being at variance with each other and this is why they end up disobeying the Lord and destruction comes.


Doctrine and Covenants 101:
50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 1:34 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 10:55 am

captainfearnot wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 10:17 am I voted for this: "Not sure, I believe the leadership is not in agreement on this issue themselves and this is reflected in church teachings at times, which can be confusing or contradictory on this issue."

Only I might strike both instances of "this issue" and replace with "any issue."

Caffeinated soft drinks, human evolution, Sabbath day observance, gambling, Word of Wisdom, abortion, Noah's flood, Cumorah, temple garments vis-à-vis other underwear—any possible issue you could name, it's all a mishmash of conflicting opinions among those in charge.

That’s valid I think. Appreciate the input.

I agree. Doctrine and Covenants 101 speaks of the leadership being at variance with each other and this is why they end up disobeying the Lord and destruction comes.


Doctrine and Covenants 101:
50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

So the somewhat obvious interpretation of this parable seems to me to be that you believe “the enemy” has come among the church and “broke down the hedge”?

Therefore their previous works are destroyed and also the olive trees they were cultivating before the hedge was broken down are destroyed or being destroyed?

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 11:38 am

TwochurchesOnly wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 10:51 am

IcedKoffee wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 2:15 pm

“Why would the Church support depopulation?”

Because they fully support, and are under the complete control of the United Nations!

they fully support depopulation
they have used billions$$$$ of tithing funds - FOR DECADES --on VAXXX programs around the world
they are super proud of it, too ---part of their great and spacious global citizenry HUMANITARIAN AID
they declare partnership with many "charitable" orgs that can do whatever they wish with the money (IE "light world" vending machines..)
these benevolent, holy entities flood the world with free-for all abortions - contraceptives of every sort -- bet those can come out of vending machines, too
under eubank's careful watch

It’s just sad that so many choose not to see it.

“they have used billions$$$$ of tithing funds”

And anyone still paying “tithes” to the LDS corp has blood on their hands.

Not to boast, but the Lord told me of His disgust with the City Creek Center in 2010, and we quit paying tithing then. We have had our most profitable years in the time since then. We still “tithe” but not to any evil corporations/charities. I highly recommend it.

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 1:51 pm

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 1:34 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 11th, 2023, 10:55 am

That’s valid I think. Appreciate the input.

I agree. Doctrine and Covenants 101 speaks of the leadership being at variance with each other and this is why they end up disobeying the Lord and destruction comes.


Doctrine and Covenants 101:
50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

So the somewhat obvious interpretation of this parable seems to me to be that you believe “the enemy” has come among the church and “broke down the hedge”?

Therefore their previous works are destroyed and also the olive trees they were cultivating before the hedge was broken down are destroyed or being destroyed?

I think the destruction is still internal at this point. When the outside enemy comes, it will be obvious to all.

The LDS church is already on the verge of losing everything with the stock and bank crashes that are in the horizon. Such a waste. The money that could be used or feed, clothe and shelter today will be wiped away having helped no one as it sat on digital ledgers.

The LDS church is going to be a shell of it's former self, if it exists at all.

Now, that doesn't meant I think that true disciples of Christ will be destroyed. I think Isaiah makes it clear the Lord will take care of his true people.

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 2:21 pm

fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 1:51 pm

JuneBug12000 wrote: ↑November 12th, 2023, 1:34 pm

I agree. Doctrine and Covenants 101 speaks of the leadership being at variance with each other and this is why they end up disobeying the Lord and destruction comes.


Doctrine and Covenants 101:
50 And while they were at variance one with another they became very slothful, and they hearkened not unto the commandments of their lord.

51 And the enemy came by night, and broke down the hedge; and the servants of the nobleman arose and were affrighted, and fled; and the enemy destroyed their works, and broke down the olive trees.

So the somewhat obvious interpretation of this parable seems to me to be that you believe “the enemy” has come among the church and “broke down the hedge”?

Therefore their previous works are destroyed and also the olive trees they were cultivating before the hedge was broken down are destroyed or being destroyed?

I think the destruction is still internal at this point. When the outside enemy comes, it will be obvious to all.

The LDS church is already on the verge of losing everything with the stock and bank crashes that are in the horizon. Such a waste. The money that could be used or feed, clothe and shelter today will be wiped away having helped no one as it sat on digital ledgers.

The LDS church is going to be a shell of it's former self, if it exists at all.

Now, that doesn't meant I think that true disciples of Christ will be destroyed. I think Isaiah makes it clear the Lord will take care of his true people.

Ahhh very perceptive imo. So you believe there’s an internal variance happening right now among leaders or within the church and this will eventually result in pretty large scale failures of the church? Just to be clear