More Nauvoo area Heartland Model evidence on the Mississippi, the only spot fitting scripture description.

[Christianlee]

The Book of Mormon doesn’t really fit any geographic model.

Now there's a bold assertion. There are models that fit the book to some degree. The Meso model fits it the best, in my view and that of many others. But there are still questions not fully answered.

If it fit a model you wouldn’t be arguing about it. If I had to choose it would be the Heartland model, but centered almost exclusively in western New York. I’ve seen models using ancient Lake Ticonderoga which may make sense. The founding population of the Nephite civilization would have been too small to create a group of millions of people. At any rate I don’t think you will find Book of Mormon evidence in the dirt. Just faith which is enough.

[Niyr]

The Hopewell, for whatever reason, have been mostly ignored. However, at their height they easily had the numbers the Nephites had. They were a huge civilization for the ancient world.

Who would the Lamanites have been, who were more numerous and stayed around longer than 400 AD?

They would be Native Americans in Joseph's and our day, who live in the areas where these events took place. They are there, and their traditions show much evidence as to that being the case.

As recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord sent missionaries to the Indians living in New York, Ohio, and Missouri, specifically identifying them as Lamanites and telling them that He (the Lord) “would go with them and be in their midst.” (D&C 32:2) During this mission, Joseph Smith told tribes from Michigan that the Book of Mormon was the history of their ancestors. He wrote that the Book of Mormon is a record of “the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians.” Joseph Smith, “Mormonism,” The American Revivalist and Rochester Observer 7/6 (February 2, 1833). Only the last two paragraphs of Joseph’s letter to the newspaper were printed. The entire letter appeared eleven years later in the November 15, 18. issue of the Times and Seasons. ↩

I'm asking who would have been the mound builder's rivals in that time, with a larger influence, especially after the mound builder's demise? Surely there is some evidence.

[larsenb]

The Book of Mormon doesn’t really fit any geographic model.

Now there's a bold assertion. There are models that fit the book to some degree. The Meso model fits it the best, in my view and that of many others. But there are still questions not fully answered.

If it fit a model you wouldn’t be arguing about it. If I had to choose it would be the Heartland model, but centered almost exclusively in western New York. I’ve seen models using ancient Lake Ticonderoga which may make sense. The founding population of the Nephite civilization would have been too small to create a group of millions of people. At any rate I don’t think you will find Book of Mormon evidence in the dirt. Just faith which is enough.

Nope. I'm not arguing about the Meso model. I'm going up against the extravagant and unsupported claims of the Heartlanders.

And Book of Mormon evidence has already been found "in the dirt", so to speak.

[kirtland r.m.]

Now there's a bold assertion. There are models that fit the book to some degree. The Meso model fits it the best, in my view and that of many others. But there are still questions not fully answered.

If it fit a model you wouldn’t be arguing about it. If I had to choose it would be the Heartland model, but centered almost exclusively in western New York. I’ve seen models using ancient Lake Ticonderoga which may make sense. The founding population of the Nephite civilization would have been too small to create a group of millions of people. At any rate I don’t think you will find Book of Mormon evidence in the dirt. Just faith which is enough.

Nope. I'm not arguing about the Meso model. I'm going up against the extravagant and unsupported claims of the Heartlanders.

And Book of Mormon evidence has already been found "in the dirt", so to speak.

It was found in the dirt alright, at Palmyra N.Y..

There is a temple mound situated above the Ohio River near Cincinnati. “Fragments of burnt limestone may still be seen on the top. The mound is a rectangle two hundred and twenty-five feet long by one hundred and twenty feet broad, and seven feet high.” In contrast to the hewn stone buildings and altars of Mexico, the Ohio mound has the right dimensions to have accommodated a timber and burnt lime plaster (“cement”) building of the size and proportions of Solomon’s Temple.” J. P. Maclean, The Mound Builders – Archaeology of Butler County, Ohio, 1904, pp. 222-223.

“Few realize that some of the oldest, largest and most complex structures of ancient archaeology were built of earth, clay, and stone right here in America, in the Ohio and Mississippi valleys...North America was home to some of the most highly advanced and well organized civilizations in the world – complete with cities, roads, and commerce.” Dr. Roger Kennedy, former director of the Smithsonian’s American History Museum

Joseph Smith said, “Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God. In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. This book also tells us that our Saviour made his appearance upon this continent after his resurrection, that he planted the gospel here in all its fulness, and richness, and power, and blessing; that they had apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists; the same order, the same priesthood, the same ordinances, gifts, powers, and blessing, as was enjoyed on the eastern continent…” The Wentworth Letter, Joseph Smith Jr.

The Heartland geography research has overwhelmingly demonstrated through Book of Mormon prophesies, Joseph Smith’s writings, DNA, archaeological, linguistic and cultural evidences that the most likely location for the setting of the Book of Mormon was in America’s Heartland. This painting is consistent with Joseph Smith’s known and historically documented statements and actions in such accounts as the those found in D&C 28, 30, and 32, the Wentworth Letter, the American Revivalist account, the Zelph accounts, Joseph’s hand-written letter to his wife while on Zion’s camp, and many additional sources.” Rod Meldrum, Author “Exploring the Book of Mormon in America’s Heartland

[larsenb]

. . . . . The Heartland geography research has overwhelmingly demonstrated through Book of Mormon prophesies, Joseph Smith’s writings, DNA, archaeological, linguistic and cultural evidences that the most likely location for the setting of the Book of Mormon was in America’s Heartland. This painting is consistent with Joseph Smith’s known and historically documented statements and actions in such accounts as the those found in D&C 28, 30, and 32, the Wentworth Letter, the American Revivalist account, the Zelph accounts, Joseph’s hand-written letter to his wife while on Zion’s camp, and many additional sources.” Rod Meldrum, Author “Exploring the Book of Mormon in America’s Heartland

Unfortunately, it fails miserably when measured against actual Book of Mormon passages dealing with locations, distances, directions, travel times and geographical juxtapositions.

[larsenb]

Geology? That's a fascinating subject. I've worked with several geologists and envy the outdoor work many of them get. To me, it seems there's always a puzzle to be solved with geology.

Yep. And as a generality, the study area is alwayks right in front of you.

And the outdoor work . . . Some of the hardest grunt work I've ever done was hauling rock samples out of Wadi Sayq last February, which is incredibly rugged, littered with massive boulder fields; or being knocked over backwards in a somersault by a high wave hitting a small fishing boat used for transportation to the field site, a few years before this.

Now that would be a great place to visit. What an interesting local mini climate. I'm not sure about the hauling rocks part.

It's a fascinating area to visit for several reasons. One being that its in a locale that is the wettest and with the most vegetation/trees in all of the Saudi Arabian Peninsula. Oman has recently designated it as a Protectorate, and you need permission to even go there.

One tidbit. Myself and some companions were talking to our turbaned Omani Ministry overseer in a ramshackle hotel room in Dahlqut. He was of the Jubali tribe, a mountain tribe living in the Dhofar region of southern Oman, with no written language (but they speak Arabic and subscribe to Islam . . . for the most part), and one of us asked him if he knew what Irreantum meant. He said (paraphrased): "Irreanum means many waters (his actual words, but dropping the 't'), but it refers to our wet season". Seemed like an obvious connection confirming the Nephi's mention of irreantum; but if the meaning application shifted over the last 2600 years, no surprise.

Here's a picture of him. I know his name, but it has slipped my recall at the moment.

[Atrasado]

Yep. And as a generality, the study area is alwayks right in front of you.

And the outdoor work . . . Some of the hardest grunt work I've ever done was hauling rock samples out of Wadi Sayq last February, which is incredibly rugged, littered with massive boulder fields; or being knocked over backwards in a somersault by a high wave hitting a small fishing boat used for transportation to the field site, a few years before this.

Now that would be a great place to visit. What an interesting local mini climate. I'm not sure about the hauling rocks part.

It's a fascinating area to visit for several reasons. One being that its in a locale that is the wettest and with the most vegetation/trees in all of the Saudi Arabian Peninsula. Oman has recently designated it as a Protectorate, and you need permission to even go there.

One tidbit. Myself and some companions were talking to our turbaned Omani Ministry overseer in a ramshackle hotel room in Dahlqut. He was of the Jubali tribe, a mountain tribe living in the Dhofar region of southern Oman, with no written language (but they speak Arabic and subscribe to Islam . . . for the most part), and one of us asked him if he knew what Irreantum meant. He said (paraphrased): "Irreanum means many waters (his actual words, but dropping the 't'), but it refers to our wet season". Seemed like an obvious connection confirming the Nephi's mention of irreantum; but if the meaning application shifted over the last 2600 years, no surprise.

Here's a picture of him. I know his name, but it has slipped my recall at the moment.

That's awesome. The forests of Arabia.

[kirtland r.m.]

"Use Book of Mormon text to build geography models" is what I did. I read the Book of Mormon and listed all the verses and what they said about the geography, plants, minerals, animals, anything that might be a clue, etc. I decided where I thought it probably took place based on that. When I then learned about the heartland model it closely matched where I already thought.

What have your come up with on the subject of plants that cure fevers? On this hemisphere there is only one locale that supports this scripture: the Andes mountains of Peru.

Devon DowDell argues for a South American model for the first landing in his book, Lehi Never Saw Mesoamerica. A principal argument of his (one of many included in his voluminous blog, nephicode.blogspot.com, as well) was that the herbs made mention of in Alma 46:40 used for the treatment of fever and malaria were the one sourced to make quinine, a recent discovery.

I second your South American model thoughts. Until I came across the website nephicode.blogspot.com, I thought that the Book of Mormon could have taken place here in the USA with the final battle at the hill Cumorah in New York. However, Del DowDell has done such thorough research that covers practically every angle ever considered, that I am convinced that Nephi's family landed in Chile and from there traveled into Peru and Ecuador. Del DowDell follows the scriptural record with every detail matching from the BOM. Everything from where a ship could sail being driven before the wind taking into account wind patterns and currents of the ocean, to where they could have landed with their seeds being able to grow abundantly (there are only 2 places in the whole western hemisphere with the same climate as Jerusalem), to having lots of gold, silver, copper, etc., the mountains whose height is great, and a numerous list of other things that match the scriptural record. The author has so much information and evidence including pictures on his website that is very compelling for the South American model.

Del Dowell says that the Amazon basin used to be under water (which even the scientists admit is true). However, the scientists think that this was millions of years ago instead of in more recent times. However, the BOM talks about cataclysmic changes which happened at the time of Christ's crucifixion which show that drastic change does not always take millions of years to occur gradually. With most of South America under water until Christ was crucified, the land was more like an island which also agrees with Jacob saying they were on an isle of the sea. According to this model, the mountains that Samuel prophesied to the people whose height would be great are the Andes mountains which rose even higher at Christ's crucifixion. There are farming terraces on the mountains there now which are 3,000 feet higher than any crops can even grow. The heartland model does not have any mountains whose height is great. I highly recommend checking out the website nephicode.blogspot.com for a lot more information than I can even include here. It would probably take weeks or months to read it all if anyone is truly interested. However, there is a nice search tool which is very useful to find any information that you might be looking for there. He covers basically every argument made by other theorists and uses the BOM itself as evidence.

Of course there is evidence of other civilizations from the Nephites and Lamanites in meso America and also the USA. That is because they immigrated northward. It specifically says that Hagoth went north in his ships. Meso America is north of Peru. From there I am sure that they continued to go northward into the USA. Anyway, just my 2 cents worth. I have no desire to argue about it, though. I just wanted to add my opinion about it and give other people a different perspective.

Thanks for your thoughtful post on this subject. It will probably not surprise you that I have been there (nephicode) several times. He has worked hard on his theories but he in my opinion, ignores tons of things that go against his main ideas. If you want examples, start with D.N.A. and anything else I post about on my many threads. I still absolutely look at him as an ally though in our efforts to defend the Lord's restoration of the fullness of His gospel. Thanks again.

[kirtland r.m.]

. . . . There's no northerly route for Hagoth in the Heartland model unless you have him going up through the Hudson Bay and then the NW passage. Keep in mind that after Nephi's mention of snow, snow isn't even mentioned a single time after that. We have lots of references of warm to hot weather. There's also conditions consistent with volcanism in 3 Nephi 8 and the Midwest simply does not have the vulcanism that Mesoamerica , Central America, and South America has. Not to mention the earthquakes down there are far larger than anything conjured up in the NMSZ.

But the big problem with Hagoth, is that the BofM says he built ships and launched them into the west sea. Later it elaborates and says he was heading north after launching into the west sea.

The west sea is also identified as bordering the Nephite/Lamanite land of their first inheritance. I.e., they first landed coming from the west sea.

Neither of these descriptions fit the Heartland model, except with extreme twisting.

I remind you of the New Madrid fault.

[kirtland r.m.]

. . . . . The Heartland geography research has overwhelmingly demonstrated through Book of Mormon prophesies, Joseph Smith’s writings, DNA, archaeological, linguistic and cultural evidences that the most likely location for the setting of the Book of Mormon was in America’s Heartland. This painting is consistent with Joseph Smith’s known and historically documented statements and actions in such accounts as the those found in D&C 28, 30, and 32, the Wentworth Letter, the American Revivalist account, the Zelph accounts, Joseph’s hand-written letter to his wife while on Zion’s camp, and many additional sources.” Rod Meldrum, Author “Exploring the Book of Mormon in America’s Heartland

Unfortunately, it fails miserably when measured against actual Book of Mormon passages dealing with locations, distances, directions, travel times and geographical juxtapositions.

If there were no Great Lakes, no narrow necks of land there (only mentioned once in the Book of Mormon and there are more than one in the G. Lakes area) no Cumorah in Western New York, no massive battle evidence, no Hebrew evidence, no building as the B. of M. people built mostly of earth and wood, as the scriptures and H. Nibley point out, no evidence of a light skinned people wiped out by a less advanced dark skinned people, and about 50 other things I might take some interest in what you have to say. As you ignore all of this, you won't be too disappointed in the fact that I am not real interested on communicating with you much more on this subject as we have already for many posts on various threads, but if you continue to dispute the evidences and facts I post, I suppose I am duty bound to continue.

By the way, that narrow neck of land the Meso folks want to point to in Central America is not so narrow as those I describe, which actually are. The distance between Atlantic and Pacific in meso theory is about 70 miles at it's most narrow. Not so narrow. Especially since the most current thinking on most of the Book of Mormon taking place in an area about the size of Pennsylvania. Now I know what is coming next from you, and that is the Heartland area is bigger than that. Remember, remember, we only have a fragment of the Book of Mormon records handed down to us, there were many more records, and so we are not going to have an exact map but we still have many important keys. In coming days I will be posting more on the Great Lakes and Book of Mormon geography. I am sure you will be looking forward to that.

[honestseeker12]

What have your come up with on the subject of plants that cure fevers? On this hemisphere there is only one locale that supports this scripture: the Andes mountains of Peru.

Devon DowDell argues for a South American model for the first landing in his book, Lehi Never Saw Mesoamerica. A principal argument of his (one of many included in his voluminous blog, nephicode.blogspot.com, as well) was that the herbs made mention of in Alma 46:40 used for the treatment of fever and malaria were the one sourced to make quinine, a recent discovery.

I second your South American model thoughts. Until I came across the website nephicode.blogspot.com, I thought that the Book of Mormon could have taken place here in the USA with the final battle at the hill Cumorah in New York. However, Del DowDell has done such thorough research that covers practically every angle ever considered, that I am convinced that Nephi's family landed in Chile and from there traveled into Peru and Ecuador. Del DowDell follows the scriptural record with every detail matching from the BOM. Everything from where a ship could sail being driven before the wind taking into account wind patterns and currents of the ocean, to where they could have landed with their seeds being able to grow abundantly (there are only 2 places in the whole western hemisphere with the same climate as Jerusalem), to having lots of gold, silver, copper, etc., the mountains whose height is great, and a numerous list of other things that match the scriptural record. The author has so much information and evidence including pictures on his website that is very compelling for the South American model.

Del Dowell says that the Amazon basin used to be under water (which even the scientists admit is true). However, the scientists think that this was millions of years ago instead of in more recent times. However, the BOM talks about cataclysmic changes which happened at the time of Christ's crucifixion which show that drastic change does not always take millions of years to occur gradually. With most of South America under water until Christ was crucified, the land was more like an island which also agrees with Jacob saying they were on an isle of the sea. According to this model, the mountains that Samuel prophesied to the people whose height would be great are the Andes mountains which rose even higher at Christ's crucifixion. There are farming terraces on the mountains there now which are 3,000 feet higher than any crops can even grow. The heartland model does not have any mountains whose height is great. I highly recommend checking out the website nephicode.blogspot.com for a lot more information than I can even include here. It would probably take weeks or months to read it all if anyone is truly interested. However, there is a nice search tool which is very useful to find any information that you might be looking for there. He covers basically every argument made by other theorists and uses the BOM itself as evidence.

Of course there is evidence of other civilizations from the Nephites and Lamanites in meso America and also the USA. That is because they immigrated northward. It specifically says that Hagoth went north in his ships. Meso America is north of Peru. From there I am sure that they continued to go northward into the USA. Anyway, just my 2 cents worth. I have no desire to argue about it, though. I just wanted to add my opinion about it and give other people a different perspective.

Thanks for your thoughtful post on this subject. It will probably not surprise you that I have been there (nephicode) several times. He has worked hard on his theories but he in my opinion, ignores tons of things that go against his main ideas. If you want examples, start with D.N.A. and anything else I post about on my many threads. I still absolutely look at him as an ally though in our efforts to defend the Lord's restoration of the fullness of His gospel. Thanks again.

Regardless of where the main BOM history took place, I would be very excited to learn about the entire history of all of the native people in North, South, and Central America. (I can't wait until our gaps in knowledge are filled in--maybe during the Millenium when we have access to more sacred records.) Many of the tribes ranging all the way from up north in USA/Canada to Mexico and Central America and all the way to Peru and other South American areas all have legends of a great white God appearing to them, and many have customs, culture, or language that is related in some way to that of the Hebrews and/or Egyptians. I think that many or even all of these people are descendants of Lehi, and they spread out as they immigrated northward. However, if these people did not all come from Lehi, then perhaps they are from another group that the Lord has led away from Israel as prophesied in the allegory of the olive trees. I would like to know about all of them. I think eventually they all go back to the House of Israel.

[Cruiserdude]

Yep. And as a generality, the study area is alwayks right in front of you.

And the outdoor work . . . Some of the hardest grunt work I've ever done was hauling rock samples out of Wadi Sayq last February, which is incredibly rugged, littered with massive boulder fields; or being knocked over backwards in a somersault by a high wave hitting a small fishing boat used for transportation to the field site, a few years before this.

Now that would be a great place to visit. What an interesting local mini climate. I'm not sure about the hauling rocks part.

It's a fascinating area to visit for several reasons. One being that its in a locale that is the wettest and with the most vegetation/trees in all of the Saudi Arabian Peninsula. Oman has recently designated it as a Protectorate, and you need permission to even go there.

One tidbit. Myself and some companions were talking to our turbaned Omani Ministry overseer in a ramshackle hotel room in Dahlqut. He was of the Jubali tribe, a mountain tribe living in the Dhofar region of southern Oman, with no written language (but they speak Arabic and subscribe to Islam . . . for the most part), and one of us asked him if he knew what Irreantum meant. He said (paraphrased): "Irreanum means many waters (his actual words, but dropping the 't'), but it refers to our wet season". Seemed like an obvious connection confirming the Nephi's mention of irreantum; but if the meaning application shifted over the last 2600 years, no surprise.

Here's a picture of him. I know his name, but it has slipped my recall at the moment.

What an awesome experience/story! Thanks for sharing that Larsen

[larsenb]

The Hopewell, for whatever reason, have been mostly ignored. However, at their height they easily had the numbers the Nephites had. They were a huge civilization for the ancient world.

Who would the Lamanites have been, who were more numerous and stayed around longer than 400 AD?

They would be Native Americans in Joseph's and our day, who live in the areas where these events took place. They are there, and their traditions show much evidence as to that being the case.

As recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord sent missionaries to the Indians living in New York, Ohio, and Missouri, specifically identifying them as Lamanites and telling them that He (the Lord) “would go with them and be in their midst.” (D&C 32:2) During this mission, Joseph Smith told tribes from Michigan that the Book of Mormon was the history of their ancestors. He wrote that the Book of Mormon is a record of “the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians.” Joseph Smith, “Mormonism,” The American Revivalist and Rochester Observer 7/6 (February 2, 1833). Only the last two paragraphs of Joseph’s letter to the newspaper were printed. The entire letter appeared eleven years later in the November 15, 18. issue of the Times and Seasons. ↩

Claiming the "Book of Mormon [was] a record of "the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians"" could be perfectly accurate even if you posit MesoAmerica as their main original homeland. With all the northerrn migrations of the Nephites and Lamanites documented in the book, this shouldn't surprise anyone.

Though, to be correct in terms of our more recent understandings, JS would have been more accurate to have used the phrase: "some of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians".

[larsenb]

If it fit a model you wouldn’t be arguing about it. If I had to choose it would be the Heartland model, but centered almost exclusively in western New York. I’ve seen models using ancient Lake Ticonderoga which may make sense. The founding population of the Nephite civilization would have been too small to create a group of millions of people. At any rate I don’t think you will find Book of Mormon evidence in the dirt. Just faith which is enough.

Nope. I'm not arguing about the Meso model. I'm going up against the extravagant and unsupported claims of the Heartlanders.

And Book of Mormon evidence has already been found "in the dirt", so to speak.

It was found in the dirt alright, at Palmyra N.Y..

There is a temple mound situated above the Ohio River near Cincinnati. “Fragments of burnt limestone may still be seen on the top. The mound is a rectangle two hundred and twenty-five feet long by one hundred and twenty feet broad, and seven feet high.” In contrast to the hewn stone buildings and altars of Mexico, the Ohio mound has the right dimensions to have accommodated a timber and burnt lime plaster (“cement”) building of the size and proportions of Solomon’s Temple.” J. P. Maclean, The Mound Builders – Archaeology of Butler County, Ohio, 1904, pp. 222-223.

“Few realize that some of the oldest, largest and most complex structures of ancient archaeology were built of earth, clay, and stone right here in America, in the Ohio and Mississippi valleys...North America was home to some of the most highly advanced and well organized civilizations in the world – complete with cities, roads, and commerce.” Dr. Roger Kennedy, former director of the Smithsonian’s American History Museum

Joseph Smith said, “Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God. In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. This book also tells us that our Saviour made his appearance upon this continent after his resurrection, that he planted the gospel here in all its fulness, and richness, and power, and blessing; that they had apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists; the same order, the same priesthood, the same ordinances, gifts, powers, and blessing, as was enjoyed on the eastern continent…” The Wentworth Letter, Joseph Smith Jr.

The Heartland geography research has overwhelmingly demonstrated through Book of Mormon prophesies, Joseph Smith’s writings, DNA, archaeological, linguistic and cultural evidences that the most likely location for the setting of the Book of Mormon was in America’s Heartland. This painting is consistent with Joseph Smith’s known and historically documented statements and actions in such accounts as the those found in D&C 28, 30, and 32, the Wentworth Letter, the American Revivalist account, the Zelph accounts, Joseph’s hand-written letter to his wife while on Zion’s camp, and many additional sources.” Rod Meldrum, Author “Exploring the Book of Mormon in America’s Heartland

The problem with this quote and using it to support the Book of Mormon, is that it consists of a personal description charged with conjecture. Questions that arise in my mind regarding it, are: Did the fellow take any pictures or samples? Did he produce any diagrams? Was the mound he found the material on, a burial mound? What exactly does he mean by “burnt limestone” or “burnt lime plaster, was it a mortar, or what, and how much did he find”? is the structure level? And the dimensions of the mound being 220 by 120 feet long are more than enough to support the dimensions of Solomon's Temple, but why didn’t they make it more in proportion to the temple, which is 20 by 60 cubits, or 30 ft by 90 ft. Also what was the orientation of the mound; does is conform to Jewish/Israelitish practice when it comes to orienting their sanctuaries/temples?

And there is nothing in your 2nd paragraph that negates another location for the main Book of Mormon stories.

And your claims of the final paragraph are in much dispute. The Heartland geography simply does NOT “overwhelmingly demonstrate” the location of the main Book of Mormon history. But I have no problem with your thinking it does. Carry on.

[larsenb]

. . . . There's no northerly route for Hagoth in the Heartland model unless you have him going up through the Hudson Bay and then the NW passage. Keep in mind that after Nephi's mention of snow, snow isn't even mentioned a single time after that. We have lots of references of warm to hot weather. There's also conditions consistent with volcanism in 3 Nephi 8 and the Midwest simply does not have the vulcanism that Mesoamerica , Central America, and South America has. Not to mention the earthquakes down there are far larger than anything conjured up in the NMSZ.

But the big problem with Hagoth, is that the BofM says he built ships and launched them into the west sea. Later it elaborates and says he was heading north after launching into the west sea.

The west sea is also identified as bordering the Nephite/Lamanite land of their first inheritance. I.e., they first landed coming from the west sea.

Neither of these descriptions fit the Heartland model, except with extreme twisting.

I remind you of the New Madrid fault.

The New Madrid fault system doesn't really cover the bases for the destruction described in 3rd Nephi. Also, the main 'epicenter' is quite distant from the Heartlander placement of the main destruction centered on Zarahemla and the "land of Bountiful".

[larsenb]

Now that would be a great place to visit. What an interesting local mini climate. I'm not sure about the hauling rocks part.

It's a fascinating area to visit for several reasons. One being that its in a locale that is the wettest and with the most vegetation/trees in all of the Saudi Arabian Peninsula. Oman has recently designated it as a Protectorate, and you need permission to even go there.

One tidbit. Myself and some companions were talking to our turbaned Omani Ministry overseer in a ramshackle hotel room in Dahlqut. He was of the Jubali tribe, a mountain tribe living in the Dhofar region of southern Oman, with no written language (but they speak Arabic and subscribe to Islam . . . for the most part), and one of us asked him if he knew what Irreantum meant. He said (paraphrased): "Irreanum means many waters (his actual words, but dropping the 't'), but it refers to our wet season". Seemed like an obvious connection confirming the Nephi's mention of irreantum; but if the meaning application shifted over the last 2600 years, no surprise.

Here's a picture of him. I know his name, but it has slipped my recall at the moment.

What an awesome experience/story! Thanks for sharing that Larsen

It's been a really amazing experience going to this region a few times. I feel quite fortunate. And this story about our Jubali 'overseer' is just the tip of the iceberg, in terms of interesting stories and experiences. His name, as I recall, is Salhadan.

[larsenb]

. . . . . The Heartland geography research has overwhelmingly demonstrated through Book of Mormon prophesies, Joseph Smith’s writings, DNA, archaeological, linguistic and cultural evidences that the most likely location for the setting of the Book of Mormon was in America’s Heartland. This painting is consistent with Joseph Smith’s known and historically documented statements and actions in such accounts as the those found in D&C 28, 30, and 32, the Wentworth Letter, the American Revivalist account, the Zelph accounts, Joseph’s hand-written letter to his wife while on Zion’s camp, and many additional sources.” Rod Meldrum, Author “Exploring the Book of Mormon in America’s Heartland

Unfortunately, it fails miserably when measured against actual Book of Mormon passages dealing with locations, distances, directions, travel times and geographical juxtapositions.

If there were no Great Lakes, no narrow necks of land there (only mentioned once in the Book of Mormon and there are more than one in the G. Lakes area) no Cumorah in Western New York, no massive battle evidence, no Hebrew evidence, no building as the B. of M. people built mostly of earth and wood, as the scriptures and H. Nibley point out, no evidence of a light skinned people wiped out by a less advanced dark skinned people, and about 50 other things I might take some interest in what you have to say. As you ignore all of this, you won't be too disappointed in the fact that I am not real interested on communicating with you much more on this subject as we have already for many posts on various threads, but if you continue to dispute the evidences and facts I post, I suppose I am duty bound to continue.

By the way, that narrow neck of land the Meso folks want to point to in Central America is not so narrow as those I describe, which actually are. The distance between Atlantic and Pacific in meso theory is about 70 miles at it's most narrow. Not so narrow. Especially since the most current thinking on most of the Book of Mormon taking place in an area about the size of Pennsylvania. Now I know what is coming next from you, and that is the Heartland area is bigger than that. Remember, remember, we only have a fragment of the Book of Mormon records handed down to us, there were many more records, and so we are not going to have an exact map but we still have many important keys. In coming days I will be posting more on the Great Lakes and Book of Mormon geography. I am sure you will be looking forward to that.

You poor lady. Tough to deal w/opposing views.

You seem to be totally unaware of the claims/evidence for light skinned groups in the Meso area, or the arguments in that area for narrow necks or passes, fortifications, real cement (not adobe), intriguing accounts from Mayan Codices, etc., of origins described as very similar to Lehi's treck and first land of Bountiful; or of new LIDAR finding suggesting much more dense populations existing in N. Guatemala areas than archaeologists had ever thought. And the list could be expanded quite a bit from this short list. We aren't even talking about the Columbus 'controversy'; and you seem to gloss over the claim you presented of various Indian tribes claiming they came from the Yucatan, probably more accurately described as the region of the Yucatan, if you questioned them more closely.

Heartlanders, as far as I know, don't deal with Brian Stubb's linguistic work. They don't handle very well at all, the whole treatment of the West Sea, mentions of which are replete all through the Book of Mormon, and its specific juxtaposition to the Nephite/Lamanite first land of inheritance.

The location of the main Book of Mormon lands are in dispute. Their location in the US Heartland has not been conclusively established, by any means. Sorry. That's just reality.

[kirtland r.m.]

. . . . . The Heartland geography research has overwhelmingly demonstrated through Book of Mormon prophesies, Joseph Smith’s writings, DNA, archaeological, linguistic and cultural evidences that the most likely location for the setting of the Book of Mormon was in America’s Heartland. This painting is consistent with Joseph Smith’s known and historically documented statements and actions in such accounts as the those found in D&C 28, 30, and 32, the Wentworth Letter, the American Revivalist account, the Zelph accounts, Joseph’s hand-written letter to his wife while on Zion’s camp, and many additional sources.” Rod Meldrum, Author “Exploring the Book of Mormon in America’s Heartland

Unfortunately, it fails miserably when measured against actual Book of Mormon passages dealing with locations, distances, directions, travel times and geographical juxtapositions.

That's your opinion and you are sticking to it. Here is one of many examples of what you don't want to view.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/unders ... of-land-2/ UNDERSTANDING NECKS, LINES, PASSAGES, STRIPS, AND THE NARROW NECK OF LAND

[kirtland r.m.]

Unfortunately, it fails miserably when measured against actual Book of Mormon passages dealing with locations, distances, directions, travel times and geographical juxtapositions.

If there were no Great Lakes, no narrow necks of land there (only mentioned once in the Book of Mormon and there are more than one in the G. Lakes area) no Cumorah in Western New York, no massive battle evidence, no Hebrew evidence, no building as the B. of M. people built mostly of earth and wood, as the scriptures and H. Nibley point out, no evidence of a light skinned people wiped out by a less advanced dark skinned people, and about 50 other things I might take some interest in what you have to say. As you ignore all of this, you won't be too disappointed in the fact that I am not real interested on communicating with you much more on this subject as we have already for many posts on various threads, but if you continue to dispute the evidences and facts I post, I suppose I am duty bound to continue.

By the way, that narrow neck of land the Meso folks want to point to in Central America is not so narrow as those I describe, which actually are. The distance between Atlantic and Pacific in meso theory is about 70 miles at it's most narrow. Not so narrow. Especially since the most current thinking on most of the Book of Mormon taking place in an area about the size of Pennsylvania. Now I know what is coming next from you, and that is the Heartland area is bigger than that. Remember, remember, we only have a fragment of the Book of Mormon records handed down to us, there were many more records, and so we are not going to have an exact map but we still have many important keys. In coming days I will be posting more on the Great Lakes and Book of Mormon geography. I am sure you will be looking forward to that.

You poor lady. Tough to deal w/opposing views.

You seem to be totally unaware of the claims/evidence for light skinned groups in the Meso area, or the arguments in that area for narrow necks or passes, fortifications, real cement (not adobe), intriguing accounts from Mayan Codices, etc., of origins described as very similar to Lehi's treck and first land of Bountiful; or of new LIDAR finding suggesting much more dense populations existing in N. Guatemala areas than archaeologists had ever thought. And the list could be expanded quite a bit from this short list. We aren't even talking about the Columbus 'controversy'; and you seem to gloss over the claim you presented of various Indian tribes claiming they came from the Yucatan, probably more accurately described as the region of the Yucatan, if you questioned them more closely.

Heartlanders, as far as I know, don't deal with Brian Stubb's linguistic work. They don't handle very well at all, the whole treatment of the West Sea, mentions of which are replete all through the Book of Mormon, and its specific juxtaposition to the Nephite/Lamanite first land of inheritance.

The location of the main Book of Mormon lands are in dispute. Their location in the US Heartland has not been conclusively established, by any means. Sorry. That's just reality.

I said several weeks ago, that there was also some evidence for your ideas, and I said it right on an answer to one of your posts. I am not totally unaware as you say, I grew up on things like the Jack West slides. By the way, while you are at it, why don't you point out that hardened copper has also been found in Meso. America? One thing you might want to rethink is that I am unaware when it comes to gospel subjects. Hahaha. By their fruits and many multi subject posts dude. I can shoot down the Meso. theory if that's what I wanted to do, but I don't take things as personal as you do. What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct, not spending lot's of time elsewhere although I will post a few things in this vein. Start with Cumorah and other sites like the Zelph Mound, and Manti ect. ect. which were pointed out by Joseph Smith. As I have already said, post your own threads with evidence.

[larsenb]

. . . . . The Heartland geography research has overwhelmingly demonstrated through Book of Mormon prophesies, Joseph Smith’s writings, DNA, archaeological, linguistic and cultural evidences that the most likely location for the setting of the Book of Mormon was in America’s Heartland. This painting is consistent with Joseph Smith’s known and historically documented statements and actions in such accounts as the those found in D&C 28, 30, and 32, the Wentworth Letter, the American Revivalist account, the Zelph accounts, Joseph’s hand-written letter to his wife while on Zion’s camp, and many additional sources.” Rod Meldrum, Author “Exploring the Book of Mormon in America’s Heartland

Unfortunately, it fails miserably when measured against actual Book of Mormon passages dealing with locations, distances, directions, travel times and geographical juxtapositions.

That's your opinion and you are sticking to it. Here is one of many examples of what you don't want to view.https://bookofmormonevidence.org/unders ... of-land-2/ UNDERSTANDING NECKS, LINES, PASSAGES, STRIPS, AND THE NARROW NECK OF LAND

Are you aware of the things I mentioned? And do you have explanations for them? If not, what I said is not just my opinion. How about encapsulating what you thing the article referenced in your link is saying in understanding all these things. Then you have to show they only apply to what the article is referencing.

[larsenb]

If there were no Great Lakes, no narrow necks of land there (only mentioned once in the Book of Mormon and there are more than one in the G. Lakes area) no Cumorah in Western New York, no massive battle evidence, no Hebrew evidence, no building as the B. of M. people built mostly of earth and wood, as the scriptures and H. Nibley point out, no evidence of a light skinned people wiped out by a less advanced dark skinned people, and about 50 other things I might take some interest in what you have to say. As you ignore all of this, you won't be too disappointed in the fact that I am not real interested on communicating with you much more on this subject as we have already for many posts on various threads, but if you continue to dispute the evidences and facts I post, I suppose I am duty bound to continue.

By the way, that narrow neck of land the Meso folks want to point to in Central America is not so narrow as those I describe, which actually are. The distance between Atlantic and Pacific in meso theory is about 70 miles at it's most narrow. Not so narrow. Especially since the most current thinking on most of the Book of Mormon taking place in an area about the size of Pennsylvania. Now I know what is coming next from you, and that is the Heartland area is bigger than that. Remember, remember, we only have a fragment of the Book of Mormon records handed down to us, there were many more records, and so we are not going to have an exact map but we still have many important keys. In coming days I will be posting more on the Great Lakes and Book of Mormon geography. I am sure you will be looking forward to that.

You poor lady. Tough to deal w/opposing views.

You seem to be totally unaware of the claims/evidence for light skinned groups in the Meso area, or the arguments in that area for narrow necks or passes, fortifications, real cement (not adobe), intriguing accounts from Mayan Codices, etc., of origins described as very similar to Lehi's treck and first land of Bountiful; or of new LIDAR finding suggesting much more dense populations existing in N. Guatemala areas than archaeologists had ever thought. And the list could be expanded quite a bit from this short list. We aren't even talking about the Columbus 'controversy'; and you seem to gloss over the claim you presented of various Indian tribes claiming they came from the Yucatan, probably more accurately described as the region of the Yucatan, if you questioned them more closely.

Heartlanders, as far as I know, don't deal with Brian Stubb's linguistic work. They don't handle very well at all, the whole treatment of the West Sea, mentions of which are replete all through the Book of Mormon, and its specific juxtaposition to the Nephite/Lamanite first land of inheritance.

The location of the main Book of Mormon lands are in dispute. Their location in the US Heartland has not been conclusively established, by any means. Sorry. That's just reality.

I said several weeks ago, that there was also some evidence for your ideas, and I said it right on an answer to one of your posts. I am not totally unaware as you say, I grew up on things like the Jack West slides. By the way, while you are at it, why don't you point out that hardened copper has also been found in Meso. America? One thing you might want to rethink is that I am unaware when it comes to gospel subjects. Hahaha. By their fruits and many multi subject posts dude. I can shoot down the Meso. theory if that's what I wanted to do, but I don't take things as personal as you do. What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct, not spending lot's of time elsewhere although I will post a few things in this vein. Start with Cumorah and other sites like the Zelph Mound, and Manti ect. ect. which were pointed out by Joseph Smith. As I have already said, post your own threads with evidence.

Why would I think you were unaware of gospel subjects? I'm not aware I ever raised such a point.

I could care less if you "shot down the Meso theory" And you think I'm taking things personal? You don't know me very well.

Your statement: "What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct". Yes that is a true statement, I believe. Not very conducive to any kind of back-and-forth analysis or discussion, though. The position allows you to avoid any questions that don't fit your already arrived at conclusion. At least you're honest about it.

[kirtland r.m.]

You poor lady. Tough to deal w/opposing views.

You seem to be totally unaware of the claims/evidence for light skinned groups in the Meso area, or the arguments in that area for narrow necks or passes, fortifications, real cement (not adobe), intriguing accounts from Mayan Codices, etc., of origins described as very similar to Lehi's treck and first land of Bountiful; or of new LIDAR finding suggesting much more dense populations existing in N. Guatemala areas than archaeologists had ever thought. And the list could be expanded quite a bit from this short list. We aren't even talking about the Columbus 'controversy'; and you seem to gloss over the claim you presented of various Indian tribes claiming they came from the Yucatan, probably more accurately described as the region of the Yucatan, if you questioned them more closely.

Heartlanders, as far as I know, don't deal with Brian Stubb's linguistic work. They don't handle very well at all, the whole treatment of the West Sea, mentions of which are replete all through the Book of Mormon, and its specific juxtaposition to the Nephite/Lamanite first land of inheritance.

The location of the main Book of Mormon lands are in dispute. Their location in the US Heartland has not been conclusively established, by any means. Sorry. That's just reality.

I said several weeks ago, that there was also some evidence for your ideas, and I said it right on an answer to one of your posts. I am not totally unaware as you say, I grew up on things like the Jack West slides. By the way, while you are at it, why don't you point out that hardened copper has also been found in Meso. America? One thing you might want to rethink is that I am unaware when it comes to gospel subjects. Hahaha. By their fruits and many multi subject posts dude. I can shoot down the Meso. theory if that's what I wanted to do, but I don't take things as personal as you do. What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct, not spending lot's of time elsewhere although I will post a few things in this vein. Start with Cumorah and other sites like the Zelph Mound, and Manti ect. ect. which were pointed out by Joseph Smith. As I have already said, post your own threads with evidence.

Why would I think you were unaware of gospel subjects? I'm not aware I ever raised such a point.

I could care less if you "shot down the Meso theory" And you think I'm taking things personal? You don't know me very well.

Your statement: "What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct". Yes that is a true statement, I believe. Not very conducive to any kind of back-and-forth analysis or discussion, though. The position allows you to avoid any questions that don't fit your already arrived at conclusion. At least you're honest about it.

I have answered you back on this subject very often. If you just want a give and take discussion back and forth on this topic or any other, I am good with that. I work to be very direct when people disagree with me, to get to the point and the root of the issues. So we can just go on discussing this if you like. The last thing on earth I am afraid of or avoid is the truth.

[larsenb]

I said several weeks ago, that there was also some evidence for your ideas, and I said it right on an answer to one of your posts. I am not totally unaware as you say, I grew up on things like the Jack West slides. By the way, while you are at it, why don't you point out that hardened copper has also been found in Meso. America? One thing you might want to rethink is that I am unaware when it comes to gospel subjects. Hahaha. By their fruits and many multi subject posts dude. I can shoot down the Meso. theory if that's what I wanted to do, but I don't take things as personal as you do. What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct, not spending lot's of time elsewhere although I will post a few things in this vein. Start with Cumorah and other sites like the Zelph Mound, and Manti ect. ect. which were pointed out by Joseph Smith. As I have already said, post your own threads with evidence.

Why would I think you were unaware of gospel subjects? I'm not aware I ever raised such a point.

I could care less if you "shot down the Meso theory" And you think I'm taking things personal? You don't know me very well.

Your statement: "What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct". Yes that is a true statement, I believe. Not very conducive to any kind of back-and-forth analysis or discussion, though. The position allows you to avoid any questions that don't fit your already arrived at conclusion. At least you're honest about it.

I have answered you back on this subject very often. If you just want a give and take discussion back and forth on this topic or any other, I am good with that. I work to be very direct when people disagree with me, to get to the point and the root of the issues. So we can just go on discussing this if you like. The last thing on earth I am afraid of or avoid is the truth.

Yes, you've responded to some of my posts, but most often you avoid my actual questions or assertions; most obviously because you don't think the questions or assertions reflect anything you see as correct. I get it now.

In your previous post, you accused me of thinking you were unaware of gospel subjects. Where did I do this?? Or . . . how did you get the sense that I've done that? I've thanked you many times for the posts you have provided with good historical/witness information, particularly attesting to the truth of the restoration and Joseph Smith.

[kirtland r.m.]

"Based on the latest archeological findings, it can now be irrefutably shown that the Heartland of North America is the only location in the Western Hemisphere where all ten of the essential items were found anciently including; lambs, oxen, goats, doves, barley, wheat, grapes, and altars made of stacked, unhewn stones. These aforementioned items have not been found in the archaeological record of the pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica.” Amberli Nelson MBA Hebrew/Jewish Symbology Expert

[larsenb]

"Based on the latest archeological findings, it can now be irrefutably shown that the Heartland of North America is the only location in the Western Hemisphere where all ten of the essential items were found anciently including; lambs, oxen, goats, doves, barley, wheat, grapes, and altars made of stacked, unhewn stones. These aforementioned items have not been found in the archaeological record of the pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica.” Amberli Nelson MBA Hebrew/Jewish Symbology Expert

Anyone can make multiple assertions. I'm interested in her evidence and how she is going to prove the negative proposition that the 'aforementioned have not been found in the archaeological record of . . . ."