More Nauvoo area Heartland Model evidence on the Mississippi, the only spot fitting scripture description.

[kirtland r.m.]

"Based on the latest archeological findings, it can now be irrefutably shown that the Heartland of North America is the only location in the Western Hemisphere where all ten of the essential items were found anciently including; lambs, oxen, goats, doves, barley, wheat, grapes, and altars made of stacked, unhewn stones. These aforementioned items have not been found in the archaeological record of the pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica.” Amberli Nelson MBA Hebrew/Jewish Symbology Expert

Anyone can make multiple assertions. I'm interested in her evidence and how she is going to prove the negative proposition that the 'aforementioned have not been found in the archaeological record of . . . ."

Be honest larsenb, you wouldn't believe her if she had a notarized statement from Lehi in blood.

[kirtland r.m.]

You poor lady. Tough to deal w/opposing views.

You seem to be totally unaware of the claims/evidence for light skinned groups in the Meso area, or the arguments in that area for narrow necks or passes, fortifications, real cement (not adobe), intriguing accounts from Mayan Codices, etc., of origins described as very similar to Lehi's treck and first land of Bountiful; or of new LIDAR finding suggesting much more dense populations existing in N. Guatemala areas than archaeologists had ever thought. And the list could be expanded quite a bit from this short list. We aren't even talking about the Columbus 'controversy'; and you seem to gloss over the claim you presented of various Indian tribes claiming they came from the Yucatan, probably more accurately described as the region of the Yucatan, if you questioned them more closely.

Heartlanders, as far as I know, don't deal with Brian Stubb's linguistic work. They don't handle very well at all, the whole treatment of the West Sea, mentions of which are replete all through the Book of Mormon, and its specific juxtaposition to the Nephite/Lamanite first land of inheritance.

The location of the main Book of Mormon lands are in dispute. Their location in the US Heartland has not been conclusively established, by any means. Sorry. That's just reality.

I said several weeks ago, that there was also some evidence for your ideas, and I said it right on an answer to one of your posts. I am not totally unaware as you say, I grew up on things like the Jack West slides. By the way, while you are at it, why don't you point out that hardened copper has also been found in Meso. America? One thing you might want to rethink is that I am unaware when it comes to gospel subjects. Hahaha. By their fruits and many multi subject posts dude. I can shoot down the Meso. theory if that's what I wanted to do, but I don't take things as personal as you do. What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct, not spending lot's of time elsewhere although I will post a few things in this vein. Start with Cumorah and other sites like the Zelph Mound, and Manti ect. ect. which were pointed out by Joseph Smith. As I have already said, post your own threads with evidence.

Why would I think you were unaware of gospel subjects? I'm not aware I ever raised such a point.

I could care less if you "shot down the Meso theory" And you think I'm taking things personal? You don't know me very well.

Your statement: "What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct". Yes that is a true statement, I believe. Not very conducive to any kind of back-and-forth analysis or discussion, though. The position allows you to avoid any questions that don't fit your already arrived at conclusion. At least you're honest about it.

This is your quote from above. "Why would I think you were unaware of gospel subjects? I'm not aware I ever raised such a point." Well just look back at your earlier post on this thread. Here it is. "You seem to be totally unaware of the claims/evidence for light skinned groups in the Meso area, or the arguments in that area for narrow necks or passes, fortifications, real cement...". Not, I say for the third time now., there is some evidence for the Meso. model. Not much though. Some bits and pieces that I have been aware of going back to the early 80's till now.

[kirtland r.m.]

"Based on the latest archeological findings, it can now be irrefutably shown that the Heartland of North America is the only location in the Western Hemisphere where all ten of the essential items were found anciently including; lambs, oxen, goats, doves, barley, wheat, grapes, and altars made of stacked, unhewn stones. These aforementioned items have not been found in the archaeological record of the pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica.” Amberli Nelson MBA Hebrew/Jewish Symbology Expert

Anyone can make multiple assertions. I'm interested in her evidence and how she is going to prove the negative proposition that the 'aforementioned have not been found in the archaeological record of . . . ."

And anyone can deny them. Sheep and lambs are mentioned 77 times in the Book of Mormon. Many references are figurative, but as Alma 5:59 indicates, the people were familiar with sheep and did tend to them. William Richie, an archaeologist, reported that he found remains of domestic sheep in western New York dating to 100 A.D., about 30 miles east of the Hill Cumorah. William Richie, The Archaeology of New York (The Natural History Press, Garden City, NY 1965), p. 242

Nephites Kept the Law of Moses in North America. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/law-of-moses/

[honestseeker12]

Keep in mind when thinking about pyramid type temples, that it was against the Law of Moses to have any kind of steps leading to altars.

Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

Whoever built the pyramids in Central America, it wasn't the law (of Moses) abiding Nephites. So a lot of LDS paintings are doctrinal bunk.

I am not a scriptorian by any means, and I definitely need to study my Bible more, but I came across some confusing information regarding steps leading to altars. While Exodus 20:26 says not to ascend by stairs to the altar, Ezekiel 43: 13-17 definitely shows there were stairs to an altar in the temple:

Ezekiel 43:13 “These are the measurements of the altar by cubits (the cubit being a cubit and a handbreadth): its base shall be one cubit high and one cubit broad, with a rim of one span around its edge. And this shall be the height of the altar: 14 from the base on the ground to the lower ledge, two cubits, with a breadth of one cubit; and from the smaller ledge to the larger ledge, four cubits, with a breadth of one cubit; 15 and the altar hearth, four cubits; and from the altar hearth projecting upward, four horns. 16 The altar hearth shall be square, twelve cubits long by twelve broad. 17 The ledge also shall be square, fourteen cubits long by fourteen broad, with a rim around it half a cubit broad, and its base one cubit all around. The steps of the altar shall face east.” (I used the ESV version because it is easier to understand.)

The KJV says the same thing, but it uses words such as "settle" for ledge or border.
Ezekiel 43:15 So the altar shall be four cubits; and from the altar and upward shall be four horns.

16 And the altar shall be twelve cubits long, twelve broad, square in the four squares thereof.

17 And the settle shall be fourteen cubits long and fourteen broad in the four squares thereof; and the border about it shall be half a cubit; and the bottom thereof shall be a cubit about; and his stairs shall look toward the east.

Also, here is a picture that I found showing stairs in the temple of Solomon. There are stairs going up to an altar.

https://yearinthebible.files.wordpress. ... temple.jpg

I wish I could learn how to insert pictures directly into my text. I clicked the image button and I am lost.

[larsenb]

I said several weeks ago, that there was also some evidence for your ideas, and I said it right on an answer to one of your posts. I am not totally unaware as you say, I grew up on things like the Jack West slides. By the way, while you are at it, why don't you point out that hardened copper has also been found in Meso. America? One thing you might want to rethink is that I am unaware when it comes to gospel subjects. Hahaha. By their fruits and many multi subject posts dude. I can shoot down the Meso. theory if that's what I wanted to do, but I don't take things as personal as you do. What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct, not spending lot's of time elsewhere although I will post a few things in this vein. Start with Cumorah and other sites like the Zelph Mound, and Manti ect. ect. which were pointed out by Joseph Smith. As I have already said, post your own threads with evidence.

Why would I think you were unaware of gospel subjects? I'm not aware I ever raised such a point.

I could care less if you "shot down the Meso theory" And you think I'm taking things personal? You don't know me very well.

Your statement: "What I am interested in is defending that which I can see is correct". Yes that is a true statement, I believe. Not very conducive to any kind of back-and-forth analysis or discussion, though. The position allows you to avoid any questions that don't fit your already arrived at conclusion. At least you're honest about it.

This is your quote from above. "Why would I think you were unaware of gospel subjects? I'm not aware I ever raised such a point." Well just look back at your earlier post on this thread. Here it is. "You seem to be totally unaware of the claims/evidence for light skinned groups in the Meso area, or the arguments in that area for narrow necks or passes, fortifications, real cement...". Not, I say for the third time now., there is some evidence for the Meso. model. Not much though. Some bits and pieces that I have been aware of going back to the early 80's till now.

The real geographical location of the Book of Mormon isn't a "gospel subject". The gospel has nothing to do with knowing the physical location of the Book of Mormon.

There is actually quite a bit of evidence for the Meso model; but hardly any bits and pieces (based on actual scripture) for the Heartland model (based mainly on a predetermined selection of the model using alleged sayings of Joseph Smith, or black-and-white interpretations of certain scriptural passages about a powerful gentile nation rising up, or the location of the New Jerusalem, etc).

[larsenb]

"Based on the latest archeological findings, it can now be irrefutably shown that the Heartland of North America is the only location in the Western Hemisphere where all ten of the essential items were found anciently including; lambs, oxen, goats, doves, barley, wheat, grapes, and altars made of stacked, unhewn stones. These aforementioned items have not been found in the archaeological record of the pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica.” Amberli Nelson MBA Hebrew/Jewish Symbology Expert

Anyone can make multiple assertions. I'm interested in her evidence and how she is going to prove the negative proposition that the 'aforementioned have not been found in the archaeological record of . . . ."

Be honest larsenb, you wouldn't believe her if she had a notarized statement from Lehi in blood.

You're right, any notarized statement wouldn't prove her assertions. I'm more interested in what her data is for finding all of these things in the Heartland area. I think you referenced someone finding lamb remains from 100 BC. This is more like it. I"ll have to locate that comment and reference and take a look at it..

[larsenb]

"Based on the latest archeological findings, it can now be irrefutably shown that the Heartland of North America is the only location in the Western Hemisphere where all ten of the essential items were found anciently including; lambs, oxen, goats, doves, barley, wheat, grapes, and altars made of stacked, unhewn stones. These aforementioned items have not been found in the archaeological record of the pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica.” Amberli Nelson MBA Hebrew/Jewish Symbology Expert

Anyone can make multiple assertions. I'm interested in her evidence and how she is going to prove the negative proposition that the 'aforementioned have not been found in the archaeological record of . . . ."

And anyone can deny them. Sheep and lambs are mentioned 77 times in the Book of Mormon. Many references are figurative, but as Alma 5:59 indicates, the people were familiar with sheep and did tend to them. William Richie, an archaeologist, reported that he found remains of domestic sheep in western New York dating to 100 A.D., about 30 miles east of the Hill Cumorah. William Richie, The Archaeology of New York (The Natural History Press, Garden City, NY 1965), p. 242

Nephites Kept the Law of Moses in North America. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/law-of-moses/

OK. Now this is potentially an interesting claim. However, I wasn't able to access page 242, of the book on-line without paying for it. For such a possibly significant datum, could you post what he says about this claim for 'domestic' sheep being found in western New York? Tough to imagine your sources would neglect to do this.

And it would be useful to see the same kind of evidence for Amberli Nelson's claims about her 10 essential items.

[kirtland r.m.]

Anyone can make multiple assertions. I'm interested in her evidence and how she is going to prove the negative proposition that the 'aforementioned have not been found in the archaeological record of . . . ."

And anyone can deny them. Sheep and lambs are mentioned 77 times in the Book of Mormon. Many references are figurative, but as Alma 5:59 indicates, the people were familiar with sheep and did tend to them. William Richie, an archaeologist, reported that he found remains of domestic sheep in western New York dating to 100 A.D., about 30 miles east of the Hill Cumorah. William Richie, The Archaeology of New York (The Natural History Press, Garden City, NY 1965), p. 242

Nephites Kept the Law of Moses in North America. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/law-of-moses/

OK. Now this is potentially an interesting claim. However, I wasn't able to access page 242, of the book on-line without paying for it. For such a possibly significant datum, could you post what he says about this claim for 'domestic' sheep being found in western New York? Tough to imagine your sources would neglect to do this.

And it would be useful to see the same kind of evidence for Amberli Nelson's claims about her 10 essential items.

I work through them a few each week. Here is more on the subject you started with. Lamb-Skin about their Loins- No Lamb in Mesoamerica! “And it came to pass that they did come up to battle; and it was in the sixth month; and behold, great and terrible was the day that they did come up to battle; and they were girded about after the manner of robbers; and they had a lamb-skin about their loins, and they were dyed in blood, and their heads were shorn, and they had head-plates upon them; and great and terrible was the appearance of the armies of Giddianhi, because of their armor, and because of their being dyed in blood (3 Nephi 4:7).

It’s interesting that the robbers had lamb-skin. The Nephites hadn’t left their animals, and the robbers were accustomed to living by plunder, so where did the lamb-skin come from? The logical inference is that they had saved lamb skin from previous raids, possibly for clothing in the winter. Of course, this means the Nephites kept lambs in their herds, which is to be expected since they observed the law of Moses.

Although they “had a lamb-skin about their loins,” the robbers also wore armor. The text says they came to battle in the sixth month, which the Jewish calendar would put in August or September. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/lamb-s ... america-2/

I haven't looked for an entire or partial free download of William Richie, The Archaeology of New York, I am a little busy. However, the bookofmormonevedence.org source did.

[larsenb]

And anyone can deny them. Sheep and lambs are mentioned 77 times in the Book of Mormon. Many references are figurative, but as Alma 5:59 indicates, the people were familiar with sheep and did tend to them. William Richie, an archaeologist, reported that he found remains of domestic sheep in western New York dating to 100 A.D., about 30 miles east of the Hill Cumorah. William Richie, The Archaeology of New York (The Natural History Press, Garden City, NY 1965), p. 242

Nephites Kept the Law of Moses in North America. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/law-of-moses/

OK. Now this is potentially an interesting claim. However, I wasn't able to access page 242, of the book on-line without paying for it. For such a possibly significant datum, could you post what he says about this claim for 'domestic' sheep being found in western New York? Tough to imagine your sources would neglect to do this.

And it would be useful to see the same kind of evidence for Amberli Nelson's claims about her 10 essential items.

I work through them a few each week. Here is more on the subject you started with. Lamb-Skin about their Loins- No Lamb in Mesoamerica! “And it came to pass that they did come up to battle; and it was in the sixth month; and behold, great and terrible was the day that they did come up to battle; and they were girded about after the manner of robbers; and they had a lamb-skin about their loins, and they were dyed in blood, and their heads were shorn, and they had head-plates upon them; and great and terrible was the appearance of the armies of Giddianhi, because of their armor, and because of their being dyed in blood (3 Nephi 4:7).

It’s interesting that the robbers had lamb-skin. The Nephites hadn’t left their animals, and the robbers were accustomed to living by plunder, so where did the lamb-skin come from? The logical inference is that they had saved lamb skin from previous raids, possibly for clothing in the winter. Of course, this means the Nephites kept lambs in their herds, which is to be expected since they observed the law of Moses.

Although they “had a lamb-skin about their loins,” the robbers also wore armor. The text says they came to battle in the sixth month, which the Jewish calendar would put in August or September. https://bookofmormonevidence.org/lamb-s ... america-2/

I haven't looked for an entire or partial free download of William Richie, The Archaeology of New York, I am a little busy. However, the bookofmormonevedence.org source did.

"No Lamb in Mesoamerica!" Have you ever heard of the phrase: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", or: "You can't prove a negative proposition"? Apparently not. They are philosophical truisms or dictums. And for all I know someone has found evidence of 'lambs anciently in lands to the south.

You apparently haven't seen the posts about the recent LIDAR surveys of a relatively small area in northern Guatemala, showing hundreds of what appear to be dwellings with pen enclosures close to them.

I'm still interested in seen Ritchies data.