LDS Freedom Forum

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

The best time for Satan to try to pawn false experiences on you is when you are new to a certain class of experiences. When you feel impressions from the Holy Ghost for the first time, that or the next time is the most likely time he will send you a fake impression. When you hear the Lord’s voice for the first time, that or the next time is the most likely time he will give you a voice-based revelation. He does this because you are unfamiliar with how revelations from God operate in that channel, and he is most likely to deceive you. The second best time is when you are particularly desperate for a connection with God, such as if you have sinned and are seeking repentance, or if it has been a while since you’ve heard from God.

Without great discernment, new and experienced believers alike have been led astray by spiritual counterfeits. Once Satan has enticed you with a demonic spiritual encounter, he can teach you false doctrine that will keep you busy with what you think will bring you to God, when it is actually keeping you from him.

HereWeGo wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:40 am

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

I agree. If Jesus is our loving brother, it is hard to imagine him addressing anyone as "Boy". Have any of you, as a loving sibling, ever addressed your brother as "boy"? I can imagine calling someone "boy" when kidding around with a good friend but I can't see the Lord kidding around during a serious moment.

LostCreekAcres wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 12:17 pm

HereWeGo wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:40 am

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

I agree. If Jesus is our loving brother, it is hard to imagine him addressing anyone as "Boy". Have any of you, as a loving sibling, ever addressed your brother as "boy"? I can imagine calling someone "boy" when kidding around with a good friend but I can't see the Lord kidding around during a serious moment.

I agree that the use of "Boy" to address him seems odd. I'm not going to weigh in on my opinion re whether he actually spoke with the Lord or not.
About six months prior to my mother passing away, she told me how she had been praying to the Lord and asking how much more she had to endure. She had a lot of physical ailments and had been in the hospital multiple times. She told me she clearly heard, "The next one will be the big one." I scoffed at this language. However, about six months later, her next episode in the hospital occurred. I was at her apartment, packing up her things with my then baby. I was exhausted and trying to get done as the movers were coming the next morning to move her back in with me. My mother called and I was short with her as I was a bit overwhelmed at the moment. The next morning she passed. Later that day, an old friend of my mom's called me to see if my mom was ok. I told her that my mom had passed that morning. She said my mom had called her the night prior as well and said she was calling to say goodbye.
My mom knew, based on her previous answer to prayer, that the next one would be the big one. The more I pondered on this, I decided that that was exactly how the Lord would talk with my mom. That's how she could relate.

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

4Joshua8 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 1:23 pm

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

RMN is probably discussing things with voices in his mind, whoever they are, not necessarily seeing Jesus face to face.

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 1:40 pm

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

I suspect he is not having those experiences and is simply lying. He has already proven himself to be the Paul H. Dunn of his time.

His airplane emergency landing story never happened and was proven to be a straight lie.

His Mozambique story was shown to be a lie.

His women in the hat story was shown to be a lie and had to be pulled from his book by Deseret Book.

David13 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 12:54 pm Things that people have told us, things our parents told us many times during our childhoods, things we have heard on tv or in a movie or elsewhere will echo in our head from time to time.

It is not Satan or God talking to you, sometimes, it's just your own head speaking, from inside.

Your own memory, clouded as it may be.

Everything in the whole world does not have to boil down to God or Satan.
dc

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 12:44 pm If you look at all the times RMN has spoken about personal revelation they have a few things in common:

1. It happens during sleep
2. He leaves a pen and paper near his bedside to write down impressions
3. Everyone should follow his example

Your father's friend's experience is another example of RMN explaining how he gets revelation. Thoughts come to him during his sleep. He wakes up and writes them down. Is this God speaking to him? I wound venture no. These are his own thought processes playing out during sleep as they do with everyone else. During sleep your subconscious mind works on problems and ideas that you encountered during the waking hours. You may be sleeping, but your mind continues to search for answers, solutions, and connections. The same thing happens when you're writing. You put your thoughts on a page, but when you re-read what you thought was complete it's actually very incomplete. What happened? Your brain filled in what was missing and it appeared complete when you first penned the words but, in reality, it was missing all sorts of details, connections, and thoughts. RMN explains his "during the night" revelatory experiences in terms of communication with God and he calls it revelation instead of working through a big problem.

Revelation, the act of God uncovering hidden things, is not happening during RSM's sleep. There is no angelic appearance. There is no God standing at the bedside. No bright lights. No unearthly beings. No chariots of fire. There is no parting of the heavens. What is happening is his brain working through the problem of having conflicting church doctrines, or his brain finding a solution to claim that the government's Covid shot is indeed a god-send and safe and effective, or his brain figuring out how to keep donations high by hiding tithing funds from members, or his brain rationalizing that giving tithing funds to UNICEF, the NAACP, The UN, and the rebuilding of mosques will develop long term positive relations with outside organizations and achieve worldly acceptance for the church. He gets out of bed, pulls out his pen and paper and writes down the solutions. RMN calls it revelation. I call it justification. He was concerned about the problems arising from giving money to questionable causes from the tithing funds of the church, and his mind found the solution during sleep---call it outreach. Call it medical miracles. Call it the ongoing restoration (that's a great catchall category for sure when you're trying to fix doctrinal problems). Call it charity. Whatever you do, don't call it normal brain function.

Robin Hood wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 3:00 pm

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 12:44 pm If you look at all the times RMN has spoken about personal revelation they have a few things in common:

1. It happens during sleep
2. He leaves a pen and paper near his bedside to write down impressions
3. Everyone should follow his example

Your father's friend's experience is another example of RMN explaining how he gets revelation. Thoughts come to him during his sleep. He wakes up and writes them down. Is this God speaking to him? I wound venture no. These are his own thought processes playing out during sleep as they do with everyone else. During sleep your subconscious mind works on problems and ideas that you encountered during the waking hours. You may be sleeping, but your mind continues to search for answers, solutions, and connections. The same thing happens when you're writing. You put your thoughts on a page, but when you re-read what you thought was complete it's actually very incomplete. What happened? Your brain filled in what was missing and it appeared complete when you first penned the words but, in reality, it was missing all sorts of details, connections, and thoughts. RMN explains his "during the night" revelatory experiences in terms of communication with God and he calls it revelation instead of working through a big problem.

Revelation, the act of God uncovering hidden things, is not happening during RSM's sleep. There is no angelic appearance. There is no God standing at the bedside. No bright lights. No unearthly beings. No chariots of fire. There is no parting of the heavens. What is happening is his brain working through the problem of having conflicting church doctrines, or his brain finding a solution to claim that the government's Covid shot is indeed a god-send and safe and effective, or his brain figuring out how to keep donations high by hiding tithing funds from members, or his brain rationalizing that giving tithing funds to UNICEF, the NAACP, The UN, and the rebuilding of mosques will develop long term positive relations with outside organizations and achieve worldly acceptance for the church. He gets out of bed, pulls out his pen and paper and writes down the solutions. RMN calls it revelation. I call it justification. He was concerned about the problems arising from giving money to questionable causes from the tithing funds of the church, and his mind found the solution during sleep---call it outreach. Call it medical miracles. Call it the ongoing restoration (that's a great catchall category for sure when you're trying to fix doctrinal problems). Call it charity. Whatever you do, don't call it normal brain function.

Sometimes I wake up in the night with a fantastic idea. It amazes me that I didn't think of it before. Everything seems so clear. It must be inspiration or revelation and is clearly the best idea in the known universe.
However, when the morning comes the idea doesn't seem quite so brilliant, some of the shine has rubbed off. By the time I've finished showering I've thought of all the reasons why it wouldn't work, and how daft I was even thinking it was a good idea.
Finally, I tell my wife and she disabuses me of any residual thoughts of inspiration or genius by pointing out all of the holes.
Thankfully I didn't write them down.

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 2:13 pm

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 1:40 pm

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

I suspect he is not having those experiences and is simply lying. He has already proven himself to be the Paul H. Dunn of his time.

His airplane emergency landing story never happened and was proven to be a straight lie.

His Mozambique story was shown to be a lie.

His women in the hat story was shown to be a lie and had to be pulled from his book by Deseret Book.

I don't know any of these stories, except that the plan crash story is part of a church video. I also don't know what parts of the "stories" are considered inaccurate. Do you have details?