LDS Freedom Forum

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 1:40 pm

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

I suspect he is not having those experiences and is simply lying. He has already proven himself to be the Paul H. Dunn of his time.

His airplane emergency landing story never happened and was proven to be a straight lie.

His Mozambique story was shown to be a lie.

His women in the hat story was shown to be a lie and had to be pulled from his book by Deseret Book.

David13 wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 12:54 pm Things that people have told us, things our parents told us many times during our childhoods, things we have heard on tv or in a movie or elsewhere will echo in our head from time to time.

It is not Satan or God talking to you, sometimes, it's just your own head speaking, from inside.

Your own memory, clouded as it may be.

Everything in the whole world does not have to boil down to God or Satan.
dc

Everything in the whole world does not have to boil down to God or Satan.

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 2:13 pm I don't know any of these stories, except that the plan crash story is part of a church video. I also don't know what parts of the "stories" are considered inaccurate. Do you have details?

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 11:26 am

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 2:13 pm I don't know any of these stories, except that the plan crash story is part of a church video. I also don't know what parts of the "stories" are considered inaccurate. Do you have details?

There's a Mormon Stories episode 5 days titled: Russell M Nelson's Miracle stories w/ LDS Discussions Ep. 47, which will explain everything.

RFM covered it too on his podcast, but I don't which episode.

Juliet wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 5:22 am There are different types of voices people can interact with. The Peak States Institute has identified a biological damage in the cell that causes hearing voices and one of their trademark techniques is to heal these types of voices. It's possible to interact with other people because our cells have ways of interacting with our environment, and when there is damage, then sometimes the interaction is done in not so healthy ways. So, you can actually grab onto a piece of what feels like someone else and they can pretend to be God if it helps them in some way. In fact, with people who have a history of mk ultra, the chances they have voices that pretend to be God because they have trauma bonded with their programmers is probably higher.

The chances that this was going on in Joseph Smith's day are probably pretty high also. I think in order to know something is from God, relying on a voice in your head is not enough. Scriptures give us examples where when God was really working with a prophet, God included something physical to validate it. For example, Lehi was given the Liahona. Some records explain that God performed miracles to Moses. Gideon used the dew test on the sheep's skin. Joseph Smith was given the gold plates.

If you were the CIA, wouldn't you use all the technology at your disposal to try to control the leaders of churches? Of course you would.

The Illuminati play book includes setting people up with near death experiences. Once they have you in a near death experience, they can pretend to be God. They have done experiments with LSD that allows you to be put in a state where your brain will hallucinate the voice of God. and they have the voice of God weapon.

When a person hears voices they have to work through if it is actually coming from God or if it is not. Usually an experience with God is, as Joseph Smith said,

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;

115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter;

116 Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him;

117 To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves;

118 That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.

What Joseph Smith is describing here, is a peak experience that came from being associated with his Spirit. Not his body or his brain. In fact, the experience could not be discussed from the brain's understanding, but only through the logic of the Spirit. The logic of the Spirit surpasses the understanding of the brain. That is why people who have had real peak revelatory experiences become oracles of divine revelation because they are not receiving it from their brain but from the Spirit and then the Spirit feeds the mind with the doctrines of heaven.

Just by reading Joseph Smith's words, it's possible to feel a taste of that experience for yourself. It is often the case when someone has a peak experience and talks about it, it helps those who hear that testimony to be reminded of a similar peak experience from their own experiences. This often causes the person with the peak experience to have influence. These are people who become natural leaders, and are often not part of a church when they gain influence. Think, John the Baptist.

By their fruit ye shall know them. As one is able to provide revelatory doctrine that feeds the sheep, the living word of God, then you know by that fruit whether someone is receiving communion with God in the higher realms of spirit or is being manipulated at the brain level by the factions of interest that exist in a lower physical dimension. However, it's important to always test the word of God for yourself because even a person with peak revelatory experiences will hardly stand the temptation to misuse his influence over others if given it. So everyone needs to be accountable for who they follow or what doctrine they choose to believe.

Juliet wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 5:22 am
people who have had real peak revelatory experiences become oracles of divine revelation because they are not receiving it from their brain but from the Spirit and then the Spirit feeds the mind with the doctrines of heaven.

Just by reading Joseph Smith's words, it's possible to feel a taste of that experience for yourself..

Shawn Henry wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 11:26 am

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 2:13 pm I don't know any of these stories, except that the plan crash story is part of a church video. I also don't know what parts of the "stories" are considered inaccurate. Do you have details?

There's a Mormon Stories episode 5 days titled: Russell M Nelson's Miracle stories w/ LDS Discussions Ep. 47, which will explain everything.

RFM covered it too on his podcast, but I don't which episode.

nightlight wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 7:30 am " I need to talk to you"

That is the stranger part imo

We need, not the other way around

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

ithink wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 5:00 pm

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

I made a post recently about Yahweh, and who I think he really is.
It's clear to me at this time what is going on.

I'd bet RMN did get a visit, but it would have been Yahweh, not Christ.

Since I've considered that Yahweh of the OT is the serpent that was in the Garden, everything makes a lot more sense.
Islam, Judaism, all make sense now.
Revelations makes more sense.
Mormonism, and what is happening right now.
Makes sense.
These men aren't lying.
They are getting visits.
Just like Mohammed, and just like Joseph Smith.
Both visited by the same being.

Everything Christ said makes more sense.
Way more sense.
It's almost comical.

I'm not active, but I take what I can from anywhere.

Years ago, my Patriarch, Smith, said a man came for a blessing. After the blessing, he said the man stood up and said "I feel like I could take on Satan himself". Smith recoiled in horror, and said: "Do you know what you are saying? -- he can hear you right now... he's a god"

That seems true to me.
You make the call, but let me suggest if the serpent could deceive A/E in the Garden, what might he accomplish here?
Or do you suppose he has just red horns and a forked tail?
Nah.
He wears a suit.
A white suit.
Gotta look good to sit down in the mount of the congregation.

No wonder Christ came to end it all, and did right after his baptism.

Search your feelings.
Do you not know it to be true.

Arm Chair Quarterback wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 5:04 pm

ithink wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 5:00 pm

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

I made a post recently about Yahweh, and who I think he really is.
It's clear to me at this time what is going on.

I'd bet RMN did get a visit, but it would have been Yahweh, not Christ.

Since I've considered that Yahweh of the OT is the serpent that was in the Garden, everything makes a lot more sense.
Islam, Judaism, all make sense now.
Revelations makes more sense.
Mormonism, and what is happening right now.
Makes sense.
These men aren't lying.
They are getting visits.
Just like Mohammed, and just like Joseph Smith.
Both visited by the same being.

Everything Christ said makes more sense.
Way more sense.
It's almost comical.

I'm not active, but I take what I can from anywhere.

Years ago, my Patriarch, Smith, said a man came for a blessing. After the blessing, he said the man stood up and said "I feel like I could take on Satan himself". Smith recoiled in horror, and said: "Do you know what you are saying? -- he can hear you right now... he's a god"

That seems true to me.
You make the call, but let me suggest if the serpent could deceive A/E in the Garden, what might he accomplish here?
Or do you suppose he has just red horns and a forked tail?
Nah.
He wears a suit.
A white suit.
Gotta look good to sit down in the mount of the congregation.

No wonder Christ came to end it all, and did right after his baptism.

Search your feelings.
Do you not know it to be true.

After searching feelings and data, I vote NOT true.

ithink wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 5:00 pm

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

I made a post recently about Yahweh, and who I think he really is.
It's clear to me at this time what is going on.

I'd bet RMN did get a visit, but it would have been Yahweh, not Christ.

Since I've considered that Yahweh of the OT is the serpent that was in the Garden, everything makes a lot more sense.
Islam, Judaism, all make sense now.
Revelations makes more sense.
Mormonism, and what is happening right now.
Makes sense.
These men aren't lying.
They are getting visits.
Just like Mohammed, and just like Joseph Smith.
Both visited by the same being.

Everything Christ said makes more sense.
Way more sense.
It's almost comical.

I'm not active, but I take what I can from anywhere.

Years ago, my Patriarch, Smith, said a man came for a blessing. After the blessing, he said the man stood up and said "I feel like I could take on Satan himself". Smith recoiled in horror, and said: "Do you know what you are saying? -- he can hear you right now... he's a god"

That seems true to me.
You make the call, but let me suggest if the serpent could deceive A/E in the Garden, what might he accomplish here?
Or do you suppose he has just red horns and a forked tail?
Nah.
He wears a suit.
A white suit.
Gotta look good to sit down in the mount of the congregation.

No wonder Christ came to end it all, and did right after his baptism.

Search your feelings.
Do you not know it to be true.

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 6:02 pm

ithink wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 5:00 pm

Libertas Est Salus wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 11:27 am I'll begin with an important disclaimer that I recognize the limited value of third- and fourth-hand accounts. So, of course, take this for what it's worth—which could even be less than zero.

I was visiting my dad a year or two before covid became a thing. RMN hadn't been pres. of the church very long, but of course we'd already seen what seemed a whirlwind of changes, which changes I was pretty fond of. My dad and I were marveling at the changes and at RMN's dynamic leadership. Then my dad offered an anecdote that at the time I thought was just awesome, and which I felt so privileged to have heard. It went something like this:

"Brother Jensen [don't remember the actual name] and I were talking at the temple a couple weeks ago. He'd just gotten back from a church leadership training in Salt Lake. He said that during the training, Pres. Nelson casually mentioned having been awakened by the Lord one recent night, and he relayed how the Lord woke him and said, 'Get up, boy! I need to talk with you.' And RMN noted how he mused to himself, 'Boy?!? Well, I'm 94 years old, not much of a boy!' and then went on to discuss instruction he was given."

At the time, I thought, "WOW! He definitely is a prophet! The presidents of the church really do talk to the Lord face to face!" But in the last few years I've pondered on it from time to time, trying to decide what to make of it. There are many possibilities, but I'll kind of go through my thought process:

-My dad surely didn't make the story up. If you knew my dad, you'd just know. My dad told me truly what he was told.
-So then, what about Brother "Jensen"? He could have made up the story. I asked my dad about that possibility, and my dad said that brother is a pretty sober guy, didn't think there was any chance of exaggeration much less fabrication.
-So, assuming for the sake of discussion that Brother Jensen really heard exactly what my dad says he heard brother Jensen say that he heard, what do I make of RMN's account?

Again, if we assume for the sake of discussion that this account is true and accurate, here's what I make of it. I think it's possible that RMN flat out made it up. From whole cloth. I used to discount the possibility, but more and more I'm open to the possibility that RMN is not merely deceived, but fully corrupt and willing to tell any lie that suits whatever he perceives is his agenda.

But here's another possibility. And I actually think this is the more likely possibility. What if Satan has been appearing to RMN as an angel of light (not just any angel of light, but the Lord Himself), and leading him along? I've never met the Lord, so I can't say I know his personality. But even when I was TBM and first heard that story, I remember feeling slightly puzzled/bothered by the idea of Jesus shaking the "prophet" awake and saying, "Get up, boy!" I dunno. That just seemed (and still seems) weird. The story left me kind of wondering, "Is Jesus like a drill sergeant?" But from various accounts shared by RMN and his plural wife Wendy, it seems clear he's having some kind of experience(s). Of course the accounts are shared with the assumption these experiences are from the Holy God rather than the god of this world. But that's kind of the question here, I guess.

Also, the way the account was told, you could interpret it as the Lord appearing physically, or you could interpret it as being awoken through spiritual means and having an interaction without the Lord's physical presence. Which seems to be the way the church leaders present these issues, so conveniently vague as to be susceptible of any interpretation so they can't be backed into a corner and accused of lying.

To be clear, I do not believe Jesus Christ appeared to RMN. I do not believe Jesus Christ is instructing the Q15 in general, much less to unite with the Great and Abominable Church and it's many component parts (UN, GAVI, WEF, NAACP, etc., etc.). I suspect RMN has had and is having experiences. It's just, how do we explain those?

For any who think this story has enough merit to be discussed, what are your thoughts?

I made a post recently about Yahweh, and who I think he really is.
It's clear to me at this time what is going on.

I'd bet RMN did get a visit, but it would have been Yahweh, not Christ.

Since I've considered that Yahweh of the OT is the serpent that was in the Garden, everything makes a lot more sense.
Islam, Judaism, all make sense now.
Revelations makes more sense.
Mormonism, and what is happening right now.
Makes sense.
These men aren't lying.
They are getting visits.
Just like Mohammed, and just like Joseph Smith.
Both visited by the same being.

Everything Christ said makes more sense.
Way more sense.
It's almost comical.

I'm not active, but I take what I can from anywhere.

Years ago, my Patriarch, Smith, said a man came for a blessing. After the blessing, he said the man stood up and said "I feel like I could take on Satan himself". Smith recoiled in horror, and said: "Do you know what you are saying? -- he can hear you right now... he's a god"

That seems true to me.
You make the call, but let me suggest if the serpent could deceive A/E in the Garden, what might he accomplish here?
Or do you suppose he has just red horns and a forked tail?
Nah.
He wears a suit.
A white suit.
Gotta look good to sit down in the mount of the congregation.

No wonder Christ came to end it all, and did right after his baptism.

Search your feelings.
Do you not know it to be true.

I have a friend who is not of our faith but who is intrigued by our beliefs, he's told me a couple times that he thinks that Jehovah of the old testament is Lucifer (unless I misunderstand his position). That's a tough one to entertain. I will say I do not believe it. Admittedly, I can't say that I "know God" in a sense where I feel I can speak with authority on this or really any other issue. But at least at this point in time, I am persuaded that Jehovah of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ of the New Testament are one and the same.

Magus wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 1:24 pm Hmm....I dunno.

...
I do believe the Lord lets his chosen leaders make mistakes.

Fred wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 7:48 pm

Magus wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 1:24 pm Hmm....I dunno.

...
I do believe the Lord lets his chosen leaders make mistakes.

How serious of a mistake?
Partnering with satan?
Financing abortions?
Joining the United Nations?
Giving millions to terrorists?
Lying to the members in order to get them to follow satan instead of Jesus by getting a shot?
Refusing to help women with children?
Charging money to enter temple?
Spending the widow's mite on a mall?
Lying about mask effectiveness in order to get people to wear the satanic symbol?
Closing chapels and temples without government request and for no legitimate reason?
Ordering all church owned media that truth will not be tolerated?
Threatening Bishops and Stake Presidents with excommunication if satan not followed?
Killing missionaries to appease satan?
Lying about tithing funds being used for charitable purposes?

Magus wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 8:05 am

Fred wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 7:48 pm

Magus wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 1:24 pm Hmm....I dunno.

...
I do believe the Lord lets his chosen leaders make mistakes.

How serious of a mistake?
Partnering with satan?
Financing abortions?
Joining the United Nations?
Giving millions to terrorists?
Lying to the members in order to get them to follow satan instead of Jesus by getting a shot?
Refusing to help women with children?
Charging money to enter temple?
Spending the widow's mite on a mall?
Lying about mask effectiveness in order to get people to wear the satanic symbol?
Closing chapels and temples without government request and for no legitimate reason?
Ordering all church owned media that truth will not be tolerated?
Threatening Bishops and Stake Presidents with excommunication if satan not followed?
Killing missionaries to appease satan?
Lying about tithing funds being used for charitable purposes?

No offense but those accusations seem shrill, radicalized, and hyperbolic.

I know they reflect how you feel about them. But they hardly come off as objective analysis.

I don't agree with every move the church makes. Some of their moves are downright crappy. But I'm not going around saying the church is telling people to follow satan because RMN encouraged the vax.

Fred wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 10:16 am

Magus wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 8:05 am

Fred wrote: ↑November 8th, 2023, 7:48 pm

How serious of a mistake?
Partnering with satan?
Financing abortions?
Joining the United Nations?
Giving millions to terrorists?
Lying to the members in order to get them to follow satan instead of Jesus by getting a shot?
Refusing to help women with children?
Charging money to enter temple?
Spending the widow's mite on a mall?
Lying about mask effectiveness in order to get people to wear the satanic symbol?
Closing chapels and temples without government request and for no legitimate reason?
Ordering all church owned media that truth will not be tolerated?
Threatening Bishops and Stake Presidents with excommunication if satan not followed?
Killing missionaries to appease satan?
Lying about tithing funds being used for charitable purposes?

No offense but those accusations seem shrill, radicalized, and hyperbolic.

I know they reflect how you feel about them. But they hardly come off as objective analysis.

I don't agree with every move the church makes. Some of their moves are downright crappy. But I'm not going around saying the church is telling people to follow satan because RMN encouraged the vax.

I can see your point of view. After all, RMN calls it a godsend. Although in light of proven evidence, it does show him to be a fraud. With no known benefit and millions of harmful side effects, including death, it's certainly not something any follow of Christ would recommend.

Magus wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 10:51 am

Fred wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 10:16 am

Magus wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 8:05 am

No offense but those accusations seem shrill, radicalized, and hyperbolic.

I know they reflect how you feel about them. But they hardly come off as objective analysis.

I don't agree with every move the church makes. Some of their moves are downright crappy. But I'm not going around saying the church is telling people to follow satan because RMN encouraged the vax.

I can see your point of view. After all, RMN calls it a godsend. Although in light of proven evidence, it does show him to be a fraud. With no known benefit and millions of harmful side effects, including death, it's certainly not something any follow of Christ would recommend.

Of course I disagree with Nelson on this. But having an opinion doesn't make him a fraud. It makes him a guy who shared his opinion without revelation on the matter. Not every word out of his mouth has to be the word of God.

And a lot of follower of Christ did recommend and promote it.

Fred wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:04 am

. . . there is absolutely no possible benefit to the jab. . .

Fred wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 11:04 am

Magus wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 10:51 am

Fred wrote: ↑November 9th, 2023, 10:16 am

I can see your point of view. After all, RMN calls it a godsend. Although in light of proven evidence, it does show him to be a fraud. With no known benefit and millions of harmful side effects, including death, it's certainly not something any follow of Christ would recommend.

Of course I disagree with Nelson on this. But having an opinion doesn't make him a fraud. It makes him a guy who shared his opinion without revelation on the matter. Not every word out of his mouth has to be the word of God.

And a lot of follower of Christ did recommend and promote it.

I guess I view follower of Christ differently. A democrat may go to church and claim to follow Christ, but followers of Christ do not believe in abortion, reduction of god given rights, etc. That is more a follower of Joe Biden.

Since the jab was designed, marketed, and injected by followers of satan, I fail to see a follower of Christ spending time and energy killing people when there is absolutely no possible benefit to the jab. A follower of Christ would have faith. Not only in the immune system which God designed, but also in God himself.