“Why I was released early from the High Council” (video)

[Robin Hood]

Listen to you, Mr. High and Mighty.

I don’t want you to regard him at all. You can listen or disregard what he has to say. The only reason I made the BoM correlation is because those people also chose to speak up against false beliefs and traditions. It’s that simple. I highly doubt they felt like they were grandstanding. But good golly man, not standing up for what is right is… well, it’s wrong IMO. You see it as puffing up his ego or something. Fine, you can read into this situation as deep as you’d like. Good for you on having and opinion. I don’t agree with it. Make all the assumptions you’d like.

Your “apparently” comment is silly IMO, it’s pure speculation. Anybody who deeply cares about others typically share their viewpoints with others. And sure we can speculate on their motives, but that’s all it is.

Tell me then, why did your anointed leaders do away with high council members as part of a church court? How about we stop focusing on your speculation and assumptions and actually address the topic at hand. In some regards, all you’ve done is make an ad hominem attack, which simply suggests you have no other recourse other than to attack him personally and not why your leaders are derelict in their doctrinal understanding, or worse, they are being deceptive.

I am critical of his methods, and I'm allowed to be. This is a "freedom" forum after all. He comes across as someone with a massive chip on his shoulder because he's p****d at being released. His ego has been dented because the SP wasn't as enamored with his new found position re. tithing or whatever, as he was. I just find it strange he never mentioned these issues before his release.
Ask yourself this: had he not been released from the HC, would he still have made that video? I think you know the answer.

Actually, it looks like he's been making videos for long time. I'm surprised he wasn't released sooner.

Me too.
Makes his and others "surprise" at him being released even less plausible.

While not particularly a fan of Rob Fotheringham, I think it's interesting to contrast his approach in this regard. He made a number of videos and didn't make a big issue of his excommunication. In fact, no one would know if they were relying only on his videos for information.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Me too.
Makes his and others "surprise" at him being released even less plausible.

Did he say he was “surprised”? I don’t think he did. In fact, he said he was at peace with the decision to not pay his contributions to the church and would obviously know the consequences of such actions.

Still waiting for your response as to why the church disregards the counsel given in D&C to include the HC in church courts.

[Robin Hood]

Me too.
Makes his and others "surprise" at him being released even less plausible.

Did he say he was “surprised”? I don’t think he did. In fact, he said he was at peace with the decision to not pay his contributions to the church and would obviously know the consequences of such actions.

Still waiting for your response as to why the church disregards the counsel given in D&C to include the HC in church courts.

The church disregards the counsel in D&C because it is out of order.

[Reluctant Watchman]

Me too.
Makes his and others "surprise" at him being released even less plausible.

Did he say he was “surprised”? I don’t think he did. In fact, he said he was at peace with the decision to not pay his contributions to the church and would obviously know the consequences of such actions.

Still waiting for your response as to why the church disregards the counsel given in D&C to include the HC in church courts.

The church disregards the counsel in D&C because it is out of order.

I would say both on tithing and the instruction on HCs in D&C. Both videos noted in this thread, and really what the purpose of this thread was. I can surely question anyone’s motives as to why they choose to be vocal, but that does not negate the fact that things are not well in Zion. To understand his true intentions, you’d have to spend more time with him. I know a little more of the familial backstory, so I’m actually surprised that a release was all that occurred. But then again, I don’t know him personally… yet.

[PaulH]

So far we have Adam Boyle, Teancum1, and myself as high councilors who were released from their callings. Was anybody else released as a HC lately?

I was released as the EQ Pres once i made my views known to my bishop.

[Seed Starter]

So far we have Adam Boyle, Teancum1, and myself as high councilors who were released from their callings. Was anybody else released as a HC lately?

I was released as the EQ Pres once i made my views known to my bishop.

Do you mind sharing what those views are?

[PaulH]

So far we have Adam Boyle, Teancum1, and myself as high councilors who were released from their callings. Was anybody else released as a HC lately?

I was released as the EQ Pres once i made my views known to my bishop.

Do you mind sharing what those views are?

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

[Libertas Est Salus]

I was released as the EQ Pres once i made my views known to my bishop.

Do you mind sharing what those views are?

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

Thanks for sharing this, and thanks for your example. Covid (or more specifically my refusal to wear a mask or otherwise play along with the lies) cost me a lot of friendships. Attending church has never felt the same since. There are some members, including the EQ pres., who won't even so much as glance in my general direction.

I've been amazed at how the overwhelming majority of members have carried on as if there's been no cognitive dissonance, happily and sycophantically rehashing general conference talks in every sacrament meeting and Sunday school lesson for the next 6 months.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I was released as the EQ Pres once i made my views known to my bishop.

Do you mind sharing what those views are?

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

I really enjoyed getting the behind the scenes details of your journey. Thanks for sharing.

[PaulH]

Do you mind sharing what those views are?

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

Thanks for sharing this, and thanks for your example. Covid (or more specifically my refusal to wear a mask or otherwise play along with the lies) cost me a lot of friendships. Attending church has never felt the same since. There are some members, including the EQ pres., who won't even so much as glance in my general direction.

I've been amazed at how the overwhelming majority of members have carried on as if there's been no cognitive dissonance, happily and sycophantically rehashing general conference talks in every sacrament meeting and Sunday school lesson for the next 6 months.

I have lost a few friendships, but some of them are pretending that nothing happened and are trying to go back to how it was before. One is my former bishop and his wife. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. I will be friendly, but i would never trust them again.

I have a hard time going to church now, its constant hero worship. Today was HC Sunday, no mention of the Savior, lots of worship of Elder Uchdorf.

[Seed Starter]

I was released as the EQ Pres once i made my views known to my bishop.

Do you mind sharing what those views are?

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

Thank you for the detailed answer. The saddest part is how great people in the church systematically discard people like you in this way. The culture in the church seems to reward/promote people with blind obedience and punish sincere questioners. This is interesting because many church leaders are accomplished in their profession and/or business. This requires one to be a valued problem solver. Problem solvers are adept at collecting information and making judgment calls based on that information. Something about church culture seems to encourage the compartmentalization of facts and faith.

What I mean is the church culture makes intelligent people block out facts that they perceive may threaten faith. Sometimes they interpret facts in ways that allow them to claim they are a thinking and faithful person like how your SP responded to you about the first covid letter. In the back of their head they know what would happen if they let be known that they sided with you. Doubters get demoted. Demotion like that isn't something high achiever anything believers want on their resume. Since everyone knows who called that person to the HC or EQ it would reflect badly on them to have you acting this way. The ones who believe what you're saying and still toss you are worse than those who don't even get it. This isn't everyone for sure. I know there are church leaders among us who are good men who see the issue clearly.

My experience follows a similar trajectory to yours although I never went back after Jan. 2020. Had I gone back I hope I would have done what you did. I couldn't even participate when it was allowed I was so upset about things. I am firm in the gospel of Christ but I believe the church is beginning to crumble. I won't participate in that but I understand and respect why some feel called to.

[randyps]

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

My experience follows a similar trajectory to yours although I never went back after Jan. 2020. Had I gone back I hope I would have done what you did. I couldn't even participate when it was allowed I was so upset about things. I am firm in the gospel of Christ but I believe the church is beginning to crumble. I won't participate in that but I understand and respect why some feel called to.

I am like you with a firm faith in the gospel. I was inactive for 6 years and never planned on returning. God interviened because I kept asking him to help me. He opened the way for me to move ward boundaries, a fresh new start and a new perspective on faith.

[Chip]

Yesterday in EQ, one of the doctors was teaching and he said when he's nervous in a social situation, he'll introduce himself as "Doctor <firstname>", "so people will think I'm smart, but then they'll maybe think I'm a quack and start asking me if I can get them ivermectin, so they won't have to go to the farmer and get the horse pills". Everyone had a good chuckle, except my unvaxxed friend there who sat stone-faced, because he knows ivermectin works and could have stopped the whole COVID thing in its tracks. The doctor only believes in the vaxx and so does everybody else, except my friend. This explains why, when a few people spoke up in the past about ivermectin, they got giggles and derision, and no serious response. It's because almost everybody believes lies and is ready to make fun of anybody talking about ivermectin or any other serious truth that is controversial. It dawned on me that it's no wonder they never seemed to get what I was telling them over the past few years about ivermectin, the vaxx (which I had taken many microscope pics of), Agenda 2030, and other things. It's because inside they thought I was crazy, but didn't have the courage to let on. They'd just listen and I'd wonder how come they're not understanding or reacting in a sensible way. Their minds are sealed up. Everyone of those men there are vaxxed, except my friend. I had recently quit going because every Sunday, it's all hero worship, humble bragging, and self-aggrandizement a la church culture. It has sucked quite consistently. Glad I didn't go yesterday, as it would have just given me renewed resolve to stay away. This report came from my friend who watches on Zoom from his home.

EQ has sucked horrendously, ever since COVID. They used to be a group that could talk and confide, but since COVID, nobody is inspired to earnestly speak, except the teacher who is doing the church voice and going through the motions and needs to make an emotional appeal to carry the lesson. Everyone just sits silently and doesn't add anything that would make them vulnerable. They know what the expected church-think answers are to all the rhetorical questions that get asked and they don't want to even give those. Mostly, silence.

[TwochurchesOnly]

Yesterday in EQ, one of the doctors was teaching and he said when he's nervous in a social situation, he'll introduce himself as "Doctor <firstname>", "so people will think I'm smart, but then they'll maybe think I'm a quack and start asking me if I can get them ivermectin, so they won't have to go to the farmer and get the horse pills". Everyone had a good chuckle, except my unvaxxed friend there who sat stone-faced, because he knows ivermectin works and could have stopped the whole COVID thing in its tracks. The doctor only believes in the vaxx and so does everybody else, except my friend. This explains why, when a few people spoke up in the past about ivermectin, they got giggles and derision, and no serious response. It's because almost everybody believes lies and is ready to make fun of anybody talking about ivermectin or any other serious truth that is controversial. It dawned on me that it's no wonder they never seemed to get what I was telling them over the past few years about ivermectin, the vaxx (which I had taken many microscope pics of), Agenda 2030, and other things. It's because inside they thought I was crazy, but didn't have the courage to let on. They'd just listen and I'd wonder how come they're not understanding or reacting in a sensible way. Their minds are sealed up. Everyone of those men there are vaxxed, except my friend. I had recently quit going because every Sunday, it's all hero worship, humble bragging, and self-aggrandizement a la church culture. It has sucked quite consistently. Glad I didn't go yesterday, as it would have just given me renewed resolve to stay away. This report came from my friend who watches on Zoom from his home.

EQ has sucked horrendously, ever since COVID. They used to be a group that could talk and confide, but since COVID, nobody is inspired to earnestly speak, except the teacher who is doing the church voice and going through the motions and needs to make an emotional appeal to carry the lesson. Everyone just sits silently and doesn't add anything that would make them vulnerable. They know what the expected church-think answers are to all the rhetorical questions that get asked and they don't want to even give those. Mostly, silence.

"...Their minds are sealed up..."
best to stay away

[Seed Starter]

Yesterday in EQ, one of the doctors was teaching and he said when he's nervous in a social situation, he'll introduce himself as "Doctor <firstname>", "so people will think I'm smart, but then they'll maybe think I'm a quack and start asking me if I can get them ivermectin, so they won't have to go to the farmer and get the horse pills". Everyone had a good chuckle, except my unvaxxed friend there who sat stone-faced, because he knows ivermectin works and could have stopped the whole COVID thing in its tracks. The doctor only believes in the vaxx and so does everybody else, except my friend. This explains why, when a few people spoke up in the past about ivermectin, they got giggles and derision, and no serious response. It's because almost everybody believes lies and is ready to make fun of anybody talking about ivermectin or any other serious truth that is controversial. It dawned on me that it's no wonder they never seemed to get what I was telling them over the past few years about ivermectin, the vaxx (which I had taken many microscope pics of), Agenda 2030, and other things. It's because inside they thought I was crazy, but didn't have the courage to let on. They'd just listen and I'd wonder how come they're not understanding or reacting in a sensible way. Their minds are sealed up. Everyone of those men there are vaxxed, except my friend. I had recently quit going because every Sunday, it's all hero worship, humble bragging, and self-aggrandizement a la church culture. It has sucked quite consistently. Glad I didn't go yesterday, as it would have just given me renewed resolve to stay away. This report came from my friend who watches on Zoom from his home.

EQ has sucked horrendously, ever since COVID. They used to be a group that could talk and confide, but since COVID, nobody is inspired to earnestly speak, except the teacher who is doing the church voice and going through the motions and needs to make an emotional appeal to carry the lesson. Everyone just sits silently and doesn't add anything that would make them vulnerable. They know what the expected church-think answers are to all the rhetorical questions that get asked and they don't want to even give those. Mostly, silence.

Humble bragging

[cwass]

I was released as the EQ Pres once i made my views known to my bishop.

Do you mind sharing what those views are?

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

Thanks for a great story. I have wondered some of I should have just done exactly what you did. I played along for a bit but I appreciate the courage to immediately stand against the stupidity.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

I was released as the EQ Pres once i made my views known to my bishop.

Do you mind sharing what those views are?

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

Shocker. I thought I was reading my own story. Covid double triple and quadruple down by the church. Loss of trust in church leaders. Rabbit hole of lies, inconsistencies, cover ups. Unable to take seriously their wisdom as anything but worldly opinion.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

Thanks for sharing this, and thanks for your example. Covid (or more specifically my refusal to wear a mask or otherwise play along with the lies) cost me a lot of friendships. Attending church has never felt the same since. There are some members, including the EQ pres., who won't even so much as glance in my general direction.

I've been amazed at how the overwhelming majority of members have carried on as if there's been no cognitive dissonance, happily and sycophantically rehashing general conference talks in every sacrament meeting and Sunday school lesson for the next 6 months.

I have lost a few friendships, but some of them are pretending that nothing happened and are trying to go back to how it was before. One is my former bishop and his wife. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. I will be friendly, but i would never trust them again.

I have a hard time going to church now, its constant hero worship. Today was HC Sunday, no mention of the Savior, lots of worship of Elder Uchdorf.

Which former bishop. You mentioned two in your story.

[PaulH]

Thanks for sharing this, and thanks for your example. Covid (or more specifically my refusal to wear a mask or otherwise play along with the lies) cost me a lot of friendships. Attending church has never felt the same since. There are some members, including the EQ pres., who won't even so much as glance in my general direction.

I've been amazed at how the overwhelming majority of members have carried on as if there's been no cognitive dissonance, happily and sycophantically rehashing general conference talks in every sacrament meeting and Sunday school lesson for the next 6 months.

I have lost a few friendships, but some of them are pretending that nothing happened and are trying to go back to how it was before. One is my former bishop and his wife. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. I will be friendly, but i would never trust them again.

I have a hard time going to church now, its constant hero worship. Today was HC Sunday, no mention of the Savior, lots of worship of Elder Uchdorf.

Which former bishop. You mentioned two in your story.

The first bishop that was released a little over a year ago. The second one mentioned is still serving.

[Chip]

Do you mind sharing what those views are?

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

Shocker. I thought I was reading my own story. Covid double triple and quadruple down by the church. Loss of trust in church leaders. Rabbit hole of lies, inconsistencies, cover ups. Unable to take seriously their wisdom as anything but worldly opinion.

I take it as a message from God to leave Babylon. Pretty clear warnings.

[Arm Chair Quarterback]

Sure, I would be happy to share my story, its long and I will probably bore you with the details. I don't post much because I have difficulty putting my thoughts on paper and sounding coherent to those who may read it.

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. I was serving on the HC at the time and was at the Stake Center doing things pertaining to my calling. In between appointments i talked to my SP about it. He had been on the fence about the vax and all the controversy. I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history. He said that Pres Nelson was a doctor and in position to know these things and he now had direction on what to do. That ended our discussion. The more i thought about the letter the more angry i became. I was hurt and felt betrayed by those that i thought I could trust.

I was soon called in and released from the HC, but was called to be the EQ Pres in my ward. I was still upset with the trust that had been broken by the Q15. But the bishop in my ward was a good friend so i decided to accept the EQ Pres calling.

Anyway one day i was mulling over this mess and I had a thought, If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

The SEC report and came out adding fuel to the fire. More lies. The court case involving the church and abuse reporting requirements in AZ came out dumping more fuel on the fire. How can you defend a priesthood holder who allowed abuse to go on for years! I thought the church cared about people. No! they care about money, power, and control!

The second covid letter came out. The next Sunday a councilor the Stake Presidency was in the foyer at church handing out masks. I refused, I told him I wasn't playing the game and that i refused to uphold lies. He told me that Pres Nelson was a doctor and he should know. I responded, yes he is a doctor, he knows he is telling lies. He went to my bishop and and asked him to give me the mask and to require me to wear it. My bishop came to me and I refused again, I told him I would meet with him after church and let him know why. I was the only one in the church that day without a mask. After church we met and i started to explain my reasoning. He didn't want to hear it, he just said that the profit asked and he would obey, and he even said that if the profit told him to jump off a cliff, that he would do it. I am not embellishing this at all. My bishop actually told me he would jump off a cliff if told too by the profit! Well you cant argue with blind people. I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event. So every Sunday I stood in the foyer and greeted people as they came into the church not wearing a mask. I got lots of nasty looks and a couple of people commented. I also got lots of positive comments. I invited them to join me in my rebellion. I guess i wasn't a very good example of obedience. I was the only one in ward council not wearing a mask. I know it was burning people up, but by then i was starting to enjoy it.

For months after every lesson in EQ i would open my scriptures to Helaman 5 and talk about building your house on a firm foundation(Christ) and not on sand(men), as i had learned the hard way. I did not name names, but those paying attention understood what i was trying to say.

I have to give credit to my Stake President. I am pretty sure he was pressured by one of his councilors and others to make an example of me. He didn't release me. But at this point all I was doing was not wearing a mask. I had not shared anything else to anyone other than a couple of close friends who were on the same page.

About a year ago our bishop was released and a new bishopric was called. I had been on the short list to be the new bishop, but my "disobedience" quickly removed me from the list. The new bishop is my neighbor and a distant relative. He is much more open minded then the previous one. After he got settled in and got the pressing things taken care of, he called me into talk about things. He asked me what he could help with? He said that the EQ was running fine, we were taking care of stuff. And he was glad he didn't have to worry about the EQ. I had been the Pres for about 2.5 years at that point. I told him that I needed to talk about things the previous bishop would have had a stroke about. He laughed and said lay it on me. For about 30 minutes I explained the letters, the lies, the damaged done, many members dead and injured by following the profit, SEC lies. I told him i have no faith or trust in the Q15 and that every word out of their mouths was suspect. At the end I told him that he would probably want to release me. But I wanted him to know where I stood. He was a little shocked, but said I couldn't get out of my calling that easily. I think he talked to the Stake Pres, and with this new info about me, I was released about 3 months later. I hold no ill will toward my current bishop or SP. They are both great guys caught in bad spot.

Sorry to bore you with the details, its a similar story to many others I have heard.

Shocker. I thought I was reading my own story. Covid double triple and quadruple down by the church. Loss of trust in church leaders. Rabbit hole of lies, inconsistencies, cover ups. Unable to take seriously their wisdom as anything but worldly opinion.

I take it as a message from God to leave Babylon. Pretty clear warnings.

I've wondered (which is less emphatic than to say embraced) similar thoughts.

[Chip]

Shocker. I thought I was reading my own story. Covid double triple and quadruple down by the church. Loss of trust in church leaders. Rabbit hole of lies, inconsistencies, cover ups. Unable to take seriously their wisdom as anything but worldly opinion.

I take it as a message from God to leave Babylon. Pretty clear warnings.

I've wondered (which is less emphatic than to say embraced) similar thoughts.

The leaders demonstrated quite overtly during COVID, and in many ways since, that they are liars, uninspired, and in-league with the secret combination that we are commanded to awaken to.

Now that we have all seen this, why would any actually-moral person suppose that God will favor them for continuing to uphold such imposters as His "annointed mouthpieces, prophets, seers, revelators", etc., when we can each discern properly from reading the scriptures that such men are NOT His "annointed mouthpieces, prophets, seers, revelators", etc.

If we insolently carry on in such UNTRUTH, we are rejecting God. He wants us to live in truth, not insist that plainly-observable phonies are "special messengers" and spread that manure to other people, as if it's virtuous to do so.

If we reject truth, we have no claim on God's mercy and we will be subject to His justice. It's all very simple, actually.

THIS IS A TEST!!!! Can you stand for truth???

[creator]

Sure, I would be happy to share my story..

I received the shock of my life the day the Q15 released their first letter on covid. ... I told him that this was going to be the worst PR disaster ever in church history

...If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about? I have been down the rabbit hole ever since.

...I told him I would not wear a mask at church or any church meeting or event.

...its a similar story to many others I have heard.

Thanks for sharing. Yes, your story is similar to many of us who are like-minded. Some kept attending Church during that time, others stopped attending and never went back, but remained strong in their faith in Christ and belief in the Gospel.

"If they were willing to lie and endanger the lives and wellbeing of millions of members, what else are they lying about?"

It's a good question we should all be ponderizing. #ThinkCelestial

[creator]

If we insolently carry on in such UNTRUTH, we are rejecting God. He wants us to live in truth, not insist that plainly-observable phonies are "special messengers" and spread that manure to other people, as if it's virtuous to do so. ... THIS IS A TEST!!!! Can you stand for truth???

Right. To me, religion is supposed to be all about truth. Well, truth and love, that is. A religion that doesn't stand for these things is dead.

[Magus]

So you are saying that Nephi was wrong in his prophetic view of our day?

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

The example of Solomon's temple doesn't work in our case. Zion can be beautiful, but it is erroneous to cherry-pick a story and justify errant and false traditions in our day.

I also just figured that it was common sense that when a church is corrupt you don't need to pay them. When they change the doctrine do you think the Lord wants you to perpetuate said false doctrine? I can't.

Nephi isn't wrong at all. I can think of dozens of churches run by local pastors who have super, mega-nice sanctuaries, make tons of money, and have social clubs they call church.

Who's cherry picking? I just mentioned that the Lord approves of his temples being very nice.

Temples aren't the only "sanctuaries" though...we also have meeting houses. But those are pretty plain and standard.

You are applying an interpretation that is negative and directed towards our church - I'm just saying it's all relative. I don't know what you expect the Church to do with its building of temples and meeting houses. Do you have a proposal you think would be more appropriate?

I don't think it is correct to blame a person for perpetuating false doctrine for giving more than what is doctrinally required. They perpetuate false doctrine if they teach it. That's all.

I think it is feasible that the Lord may want us to pay a 10th of our income in our times. I doubt it, though. It flies against precedent, against what seems to be plain in scripture, against the history of the church itself. It does seem to me that the current church leadership has, for whatever reason, gone against the teaching on tithing as being a tenth of your surplus to a tenth of your income. It does bother me. I should pray about it myself and seek revelation. But I'm not about to leave the Church over it.

This part from Nephi is very important: "...and because of false teachers, and false doctrine," in relation to houses of worship and how that applies to the poor.

The person who is to blame here is the leadership. They are the "false teachers" who are teaching "false doctrine." I'm not blaming the members since they are often doctrinally ignorant and have had their minds controlled since they were infants.

For me, this single false precept was worth leaving the church over, it's that bad. Especially when it became a requirement to enter the temple and the entire rabbit hole that topic is.

This gets into the question "does everything that ever comes out of the mouth of a prophet equate to the word of God?" Which, I believe, it does not. The prophet has the same kind of authority any deacons quorum president does - just on a larger scale. Does the deacon's quorum president ever lead the quorum astray, or does God strike him down? You know the answer on that one.

The temple recommend thing is interesting. It feels as if the Church has gone about it "just so" so that it can sort of talk both ways out of its mouth. This is dishonest, but it's a common (toxic) administrative tactic that I've seen employed in businesses and agencies, where they will say what they actually want in one place, leaving you with the impression that it is actually required - but when it comes to actually requiring it, they will not enforce it.

So the Church handbook (which is not doctrine) tells us explicitly that the Church's interpretation of "one tenth of interest" means "one tenth of income." Right there it is telling us what it wants, and what it wants us to think.

But in temple recommend interviews, leaders are specifically told to refrain from asking anything more than if you are a full tithe payer. If the answer is "yes" - move on. Guidelines on what a "tenth" is are also forbidden....a tenth of gross? A tenth of net? A tenth of....what? "Income" the church says. Ah. So what now is "income" supposed to mean?

This is at best, negligent, and at worst, deliberately manipulative. My guess is it's probably a bit of both.

It comes off to me like a deliberate tactic to maximize profits while still not being accountable for *actually* holding peoples' access to the temple at ransom. You can answer "yes" to the temple interview question, and if your conscience is clear before God, you will get the recommend.

For me, it's all water over the bridge, as I'm very tempted to feel like the whole idea of a temple recommend needs to be overhauled.

The sacrament, for example, is one of the most sacred ordinances of the Church - yet we never prohibit anyone from taking it unless they've committed serious sin and are under Church discipline. I don't see why the temple can't be the same way. Instead, they are gate-keeping the crap out of it as a way to keep people in line - but I feel the result, for many, is just that people get deprived of blessings who are not otherwise grievously sinning, but just not righteous enough for their liking. I speak of this from personal experience - I was going to get married in the temple but I had a bishop who was nitpicky and pulled the plug on it last minute because he was uncomfortable (largely a "him" problem) - and this has had a huge impact on my life. Thanks, bishop!

Anyway, I digress...

My point is, the Church doesn't actually "require" you to pay a tenth of your income when push comes to shove. They want you to. They will tell you to. But the recommend interview seems deliberately vague and set up to not enforce it - probably because they know they can't doctrinally justify it.