“Why I was released early from the High Council” (video)

[Maroriginal1]

Tithing ultimately derives from the physical offerings given to the priests at the temple millennia ago. They lived off this food and shared with the poor from it. The fasting of land also fed the poor where no crops were harvested every 7th year but the poor could freely glean. It’s a perfect model of tithes and offerings. But nowhere in this teaching are we taught to be agents unto ourselves and specify who receives the offerings. It always passed through a high priest that acted as the steward and judge for the tithes, symbolic of Christ offering grace. For this, I choose not to be the steward over earmarking my offering and allow the “high priest” to exercise his duty to be humble and generous like Christ. I am deeply saddened when they do not measure up, which Isaiah prophesied about. I firmly believe that our modern day “temple priests” will be accountable. God made it clear in the Old Testament that he’s not too happy when the priests get too prideful and greedy. But he never told the Israelites to stop offering when the priests were corrupted.

That said I’ve overseen many food orders and welfare help. There’s a lot of helping the poor that goes on confidentially. But not enough in my opinion.

[I Dont Know...]

My daughter was asked to talk on Sunday and said yes. Then the bishop told her the topic was tithing.

My husband and I just found out yesterday and our whole family is in something of an uproar.

My husband doesn't want her to give the talk. He wants to lay stuff out for the bishop in a text and maybe a meeting.

My daughter wants to give the talk. Avoid the word tithing and just quote Jesus on giving to the poor.

I would be happy to help my daughter tell the whole truth with scriptures and quotes from the prophets about the true doctrine, not the current policy.

But, I'm ok if my husband feels strongly that she should just not give it.

One of my older boys is worried about community, as is my husband, and wants us to just let her give the talk on giving she wants and avoid taking about tithing.

My husband also sees this as an opportunity to squash any discussions tithing settlement and baptizing our daughter next month. Neither of which he wants.

He also wants to talk with the bishop more about how things were handled with our son's mission. The problem is, we are preaching to the choir in the topic. The bishops son was sent home a week before ours in similar circumstances, so he totally gets those feelings and concerns.

What a mess.

I keep feeling we really are living in similar circumstances to the church in Jesus day. It started fine until men got in there and messed it up. Now the righteous meet in the wilderness while the wicked judge the righteous. And all the righteous can do is wait for the Lord to come clean it up.




.

...I like how your daughter thinks...these days every time I am asked to speak regardless of the topic...I speak of Christ...I may loosely relate something of the the assigned topic, but every lesson, talk and testimony I give is to praise and honour Christ no matter who is present...When you speak with conviction of Christ...who can deny Him?...not a single leader in the church because they themselves have limited understanding of who Christ is and virtually no relationship with Christ!...they will smile and often thank you...in this way you will have not only glorified the Christ...but you will not have compromised your own belief...it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks but I have never had any negative feedback...it wouldn't really matter to me one way or the other...

[Reluctant Watchman]

Tithing ultimately derives from the physical offerings given to the priests at the temple millennia ago. They lived off this food and shared with the poor from it. The fasting of land also fed the poor where no crops were harvested every 7th year but the poor could freely glean. It’s a perfect model of tithes and offerings. But nowhere in this teaching are we taught to be agents unto ourselves and specify who receives the offerings. It always passed through a high priest that acted as the steward and judge for the tithes, symbolic of Christ offering grace. For this, I choose not to be the steward over earmarking my offering and allow the “high priest” to exercise his duty to be humble and generous like Christ. I am deeply saddened when they do not measure up, which Isaiah prophesied about. I firmly believe that our modern day “temple priests” will be accountable. God made it clear in the Old Testament that he’s not too happy when the priests get too prideful and greedy. But he never told the Israelites to stop offering when the priests were corrupted.

That said I’ve overseen many food orders and welfare help. There’s a lot of helping the poor that goes on confidentially. But not enough in my opinion.

I believe you will be held accountable for where your offerings go. If you believe the church is derelict in it’s duties, give it directly to the poor. False beliefs and traditions have damned this church.

Personally, I cannot see the Lord accepting the impure offering of the current church. It is literally being given and offered out of the flesh and sweat of the poor and needy. Following tradition for the sake of tradition wrong IMO.

While there may be a few instances where a small amount may be given to those in need, it is my opinion the top brass of the church allow this to keep up the appearance of righteousness. This in no was absolves them of the corrupt nature of the doctrine of the tithe. I mean, just think about it, the leadership is stealing from the poor (incorrect tithe) and then handing them back the crumbs and acting as if this is some magnanimous offering in helping the poor, where in reality it’s spiritual and physical abuse.

[Robin Hood]

A friend of mine shared this video from their brother. Last time I was down in UT schedules didn’t align for me to meet this man, but I love his honesty and willingness to follow what the Lord has taught him even amidst the watchful eye of church leaders, and to feel at peace for doing so.

What a bizarre thing to do.

[Reluctant Watchman]

A friend of mine shared this video from their brother. Last time I was down in UT schedules didn’t align for me to meet this man, but I love his honesty and willingness to follow what the Lord has taught him even amidst the watchful eye of church leaders, and to feel at peace for doing so.

What a bizarre thing to do.

I agree, pretty odd thing for the stake president to do.

[Maroriginal1]

Tithing ultimately derives from the physical offerings given to the priests at the temple millennia ago. They lived off this food and shared with the poor from it. The fasting of land also fed the poor where no crops were harvested every 7th year but the poor could freely glean. It’s a perfect model of tithes and offerings. But nowhere in this teaching are we taught to be agents unto ourselves and specify who receives the offerings. It always passed through a high priest that acted as the steward and judge for the tithes, symbolic of Christ offering grace. For this, I choose not to be the steward over earmarking my offering and allow the “high priest” to exercise his duty to be humble and generous like Christ. I am deeply saddened when they do not measure up, which Isaiah prophesied about. I firmly believe that our modern day “temple priests” will be accountable. God made it clear in the Old Testament that he’s not too happy when the priests get too prideful and greedy. But he never told the Israelites to stop offering when the priests were corrupted.

That said I’ve overseen many food orders and welfare help. There’s a lot of helping the poor that goes on confidentially. But not enough in my opinion.

I believe you will be held accountable for where your offerings go. If you believe the church is derelict in it’s duties, give it directly to the poor. False beliefs and traditions have damned this church.

Personally, I cannot see the Lord accepting the impure offering of the current church. It is literally being given and offered out of the flesh and sweat of the poor and needy. Following tradition for the sake of tradition wrong IMO.

While there may be a few instances where a small amount may be given to those in need, it is my opinion the top brass of the church allow this to keep up the appearance of righteousness. This in no was absolves them of the corrupt nature of the doctrine of the tithe. I mean, just think about it, the leadership is stealing from the poor (incorrect tithe) and then handing them back the crumbs and acting as if this is some magnanimous offering in helping the poor, where in reality it’s spiritual and physical abuse.

I respect your decision and think your point is valid. In the end we are all just trying to live Christ’s gospel and it’s terrible that we are in a position to have to consider alternatives.

The high counselor released should be considered a full tithe payer. All the accounts of people being released over following convictions is tragic.

[Bbhector1]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

[AgeOfAquarius]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

Thank you for sharing what you feel is your revelation.
Everyone is free to view it however they will.
To me, I think he shared some insights that makes quite a bit of difference. He took it upon himself to study things out and pray about it to receive person revelation. Which is exactly what the scriptures teach. In some wards people talk about most anyone and when someone is released early there "can" be so much gossiping- it's ridiculous. I think how he is handling this is good- he has invited people to talk to him in person and for those that are unable to he did the video. I don't see anything wrong with what he did, why he did that or anything. I think he is really trying to follow Christ- which is what we are to do.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I respect your decision and think your point is valid. In the end we are all just trying to live Christ’s gospel and it’s terrible that we are in a position to have to consider alternatives.

The high counselor released should be considered a full tithe payer. All the accounts of people being released over following convictions is tragic.

This was a big wake-up call for me when I realized that "Christ's gospel" was changed by men. In some regards, you could say that speaking up against corrupt doctrine and leaders is "Christ's gospel."

[Reluctant Watchman]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

So... speaking up against a corrupt use of tithes is "an agenda"?

[Robin Hood]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

I agree, he clearly has an agenda.
Making a video about a release from the High Council is just, well... weird. I think he comes over as a bit of a narcissist.

[Reluctant Watchman]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

I agree, he clearly has an agenda.
Making a video about a release from the High Council is just, well... weird. I think he comes over as a bit of a narcissist.

I bet it would be even worse it he created a website and wrote essays about how the church is in apostasy. Pure, unadulterated, agenda-seeking heretic.

Speaking fo websites... https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/

On a more serious note, I'm always a little surprised when members like to speculate on whether a questioning member has "an agenda", yet appear completely blind to the fact that the LDS church has an agenda, and it isn't good or Godly.

[Robin Hood]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

I agree, he clearly has an agenda.
Making a video about a release from the High Council is just, well... weird. I think he comes over as a bit of a narcissist.

I bet it would be even worse it he created a website and wrote essays about how the church is in apostasy. Pure, unadulterated, agenda-seeking heretic.

Speaking fo websites... https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/

Well... if you say so. Maybe a bit strong, but you seem to know what you're talking about.

[Dusty Wanderer]

I can't help but entertain the idea that all of these measures are meant to drive the spiritually resolute members out of the church and engender a sense of dependency and blind obedience upon leaders.

what helps me is realizing I don't need a calling, or necessarily even a temple recommend, to be worthy of exaltation in the celestial kingdom.

So the high councilman got released, maybe got his recommend yanked, too. But if he's sure of his standing before the Lord, he should be good. Just keep going to church and taking the sacrament. Strengthen others. Live the gospel. Etc. That's what it's all supposed to be about anyway.

Is it your belief, however, that he would have needed a temple recommend at some point in his life in order to be worthy of exaltation? (Having received the exalting ordinances)

[Magus]

I can't help but entertain the idea that all of these measures are meant to drive the spiritually resolute members out of the church and engender a sense of dependency and blind obedience upon leaders.

what helps me is realizing I don't need a calling, or necessarily even a temple recommend, to be worthy of exaltation in the celestial kingdom.

So the high councilman got released, maybe got his recommend yanked, too. But if he's sure of his standing before the Lord, he should be good. Just keep going to church and taking the sacrament. Strengthen others. Live the gospel. Etc. That's what it's all supposed to be about anyway.

Is it your belief, however, that he would have needed a temple recommend at some point in his life in order to be worthy of exaltation? (Having received the exalting ordinances)

No, I don't know why anyone would need a current piece of paper from their bishop and stake president to be worthy of exaltation, having already received their ordinances and living their life righteously.

[Magus]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

I agree, he clearly has an agenda.
Making a video about a release from the High Council is just, well... weird. I think he comes over as a bit of a narcissist.

ding ding ding! Glad someone agrees with me here

[Magus]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

I agree, he clearly has an agenda.
Making a video about a release from the High Council is just, well... weird. I think he comes over as a bit of a narcissist.

I bet it would be even worse it he created a website and wrote essays about how the church is in apostasy. Pure, unadulterated, agenda-seeking heretic.

Speaking fo websites... https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/

On a more serious note, I'm always a little surprised when members like to speculate on whether a questioning member has "an agenda", yet appear completely blind to the fact that the LDS church has an agenda, and it isn't good or Godly.

Dunno that I would straight up call you a narcissist (almost everyone is guilty of pride, tho) - just someone concerned and (probably) also seeking to justify leaving the Church to others and themselves. Not saying that's a bad thing. Just is what it is. I do think you have some valid points though. Just don't agree with everything.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I agree, he clearly has an agenda.
Making a video about a release from the High Council is just, well... weird. I think he comes over as a bit of a narcissist.

I bet it would be even worse it he created a website and wrote essays about how the church is in apostasy. Pure, unadulterated, agenda-seeking heretic.

Speaking fo websites... https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/

On a more serious note, I'm always a little surprised when members like to speculate on whether a questioning member has "an agenda", yet appear completely blind to the fact that the LDS church has an agenda, and it isn't good or Godly.

Dunno that I would straight up call you a narcissist (almost everyone is guilty of pride, tho) - just someone concerned and (probably) also seeking to justify leaving the Church to others and themselves. Not saying that's a bad thing. Just is what it is. I do think you have some valid points though. Just don't agree with everything.

I left the church to follow Christ. At the beginning of that process I saw clear patterns of how the church distorted the gospel. If you want to call that justification… well, yeah, I felt justified in doing so because the church apostatized. And it wasn’t just seeing the contrast in doctrine, but an answer to many, many prayers and a lot of time with the Lord.

[Magus]

I bet it would be even worse it he created a website and wrote essays about how the church is in apostasy. Pure, unadulterated, agenda-seeking heretic.

Speaking fo websites... https://www.reluctantwatchman.com/

On a more serious note, I'm always a little surprised when members like to speculate on whether a questioning member has "an agenda", yet appear completely blind to the fact that the LDS church has an agenda, and it isn't good or Godly.

Dunno that I would straight up call you a narcissist (almost everyone is guilty of pride, tho) - just someone concerned and (probably) also seeking to justify leaving the Church to others and themselves. Not saying that's a bad thing. Just is what it is. I do think you have some valid points though. Just don't agree with everything.

I left the church to follow Christ. At the beginning of that process I saw clear patterns of how the church distorted the gospel. If you want to call that justification… well, yeah, I felt justified in doing so because the church apostatized. And it wasn’t just seeing the contrast in doctrine, but an answer to many, many prayers and a lot of time with the Lord.

I believe you. I think your intentions are good and sincere. I just disagree with some of your conclusions.

Fwiw, we all seek to justify ourselves, I was worried you might take that too personally. That wasn't my intent. I justify myself all the time on here. I was just trying to point out human behavior.

[Bbhector1]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

So... speaking up against a corrupt use of tithes is "an agenda"?

To share with everyone his “personal revelation “ and give it as God spoke to him and the answer he got was it didn’t matter. Why would God “talk to him” if it didn’t matter. This gentleman is intelligent and charismatic. So yes whether his agenda is righteous or not he is not just storytelling he has an agenda.

[Reluctant Watchman]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

So... speaking up against a corrupt use of tithes is "an agenda"?

To share with everyone his “personal revelation “ and give it as God spoke to him and the answer he got was it didn’t matter. Why would God “talk to him” if it didn’t matter. This gentleman is intelligent and charismatic. So yes whether his agenda is righteous or not he is not just storytelling he has an agenda.

If meddling for good is considered an “agenda”, well, I say we need more of it.

[Magus]

My personal revelation is to believe this guy has an agenda.

So... speaking up against a corrupt use of tithes is "an agenda"?

To share with everyone his “personal revelation “ and give it as God spoke to him and the answer he got was it didn’t matter. Why would God “talk to him” if it didn’t matter. This gentleman is intelligent and charismatic. So yes whether his agenda is righteous or not he is not just storytelling he has an agenda.

I think he got an answer, it just seems to me like he probably misinterpreted it.

This has happened to me before. I've felt the Spirit very strongly a time or two but didn't know exactly what it meant except that the Lord had blessed me with his grace. Beyond that, I wasn't sure what to think.

I agree he has an agenda at this point.

Utah Mormon drama, amirite?

[Magus]

So... speaking up against a corrupt use of tithes is "an agenda"?

To share with everyone his “personal revelation “ and give it as God spoke to him and the answer he got was it didn’t matter. Why would God “talk to him” if it didn’t matter. This gentleman is intelligent and charismatic. So yes whether his agenda is righteous or not he is not just storytelling he has an agenda.

If meddling for good is considered an “agenda”, well, I say we need more of it.

If I were you, I would have raised my concerns and expressed my opinions anonymously on the internet but stayed in the Church. Like started a YouTube channel or something or something like your website.

In fact, I may do that someday, lol.

But that way, no uppity Stake Prez could ex me.

Just speaking for myself.

[Dusty Wanderer]

what helps me is realizing I don't need a calling, or necessarily even a temple recommend, to be worthy of exaltation in the celestial kingdom.

So the high councilman got released, maybe got his recommend yanked, too. But if he's sure of his standing before the Lord, he should be good. Just keep going to church and taking the sacrament. Strengthen others. Live the gospel. Etc. That's what it's all supposed to be about anyway.

Is it your belief, however, that he would have needed a temple recommend at some point in his life in order to be worthy of exaltation? (Having received the exalting ordinances)

No, I don't know why anyone would need a current piece of paper from their bishop and stake president to be worthy of exaltation, having already received their ordinances and living their life righteously.

Thanks; was just trying to understand your position better.

But for anyone to have received those ordinances at all, they would’ve been required to have that piece of paper at some point, no? I only point it out because while this treatment may not impact this guy in that regard, what about all those that haven’t received those ordinances yet, but may see it the same way as him? Maybe his children don’t get that paper because they see it the same way — supposedly, no exaltation for them.

[Reluctant Watchman]

I think he got an answer, it just seems to me like he probably misinterpreted it.

Or not.