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Re: Elder Andersen Trusts the Arm of Flesh
Posted: November 7th, 2023, 9:00 am
by tribrac
A model LDS talk used to include a reference to an early lds leader, usually Joseph or Brigham., sometimes a quote or story from someone between Brigham and current times and then a quote to a current authority, not necessarily the president.
The new model talk has eliminated any reference to Joseph or Brigham. No references to anyone or anything prior to Nelson. Nelson must be quoted, even if others have taught the same doctrine in a better way.
It seems like a policy change from the top. All these policy changes are changing church culture in dramatic ways. But I suppose if the precedent is now set about what the President can change, that a future President can change things in another direction....
Re: Elder Andersen Trusts the Arm of Flesh
Posted: November 7th, 2023, 9:08 am
by A Disciple
“We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. ”--Russell M. Nelson
"There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe." -- Russell M. Nelson
The cognitive dissonance displayed in these two statements is alarming and should warrant explanation from the man who spoke them.
What I find most astounding is the Lord himself warned his Saints. And yet the "prophets" and "leaders" of the Saints refuse to listen and refuse to follow the warning of what the Lord has spoken.
"Thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation." -- Section 89 of the Doctrine & Covenants
Re: Elder Andersen Trusts the Arm of Flesh
Posted: November 7th, 2023, 9:35 am
by Reluctant Watchman
Church quotes or material on the concept of Trust. See any patterns?
———
Neil Andersen > “A phrase I was very intrigued with from President Russell M Nelson’s recent talk in general conference was “seek guidance from voices you can trust.” Who could we trust more than President Nelson? Of course, he’s the Lord’s prophet—he’s the president of the Church—but even if he were not, what a life he has lived! I testify that President Russell M. Nelson is the Lord’s mouthpiece upon the earth today. He is the prophet of the living God.” (Twitter, Nov 5, 2023)
Russell Nelson > “…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Jan. 2022 European Area Devotional / Repeated Feb. 2022 California Area Conference. This is anti-Christian theology btw.)
Russell Nelson > “Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust. From prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost who will show unto you the things what ye should do.” (Oct. 2023 General Conference.)
Church Manual > “You can always trust the living prophets.” (True to the Faith)
Elder Haynie > “Knowing by revelation that there is a living prophet on the earth changes everything. It causes one to be uninterested in the debate about when is a prophet speaking as a prophet or whether one is ever justified in selective rejection of prophetic counsel. Such revealed knowledge invites one to trust the counsel of a living prophet, even if we do not fully understand it.” (April 2023)
Church Magzine > Trusting the Lord’s Power and Prophets (March 2023)
Church Magazine > Developing “Unshaken Faith” in Jesus Christ—and His Prophets (March 2023)
Church Magazine > Learning to put my trust in god and his prophet instead of myself (May 2022)
Church Magazine > Trust in the Prophet (March 2021)
Elder Oaks > “As servants of the Father and the Son, apostles and prophets teach and counsel as directed by the Holy Ghost…Their voices can be trusted.” (March 2020)
Church Magazine > We believe in following the prophet (June 2016)
Church News > Viewpoint: Trust in the prophets is trust in God (Oct. 2014)
FAIR Mormon > Trusting Imperfect Prophets (Dec. 2012)
General Conference > Obedience to the Prophets (Elder Costa, Oct. 2010)
General Conference > “May we have the wisdom to trust in and follow the counsel of the living prophets and apostles.” (Elder Duncan, Oct. 2010)
Student Manual > Trust the Prophet (Study Guide 2002)
Elder Schultz > ““Faith obedience” is a matter of trust. The question is simple: Do we trust our Heavenly Father? Do we trust our prophets? (April 2002)
Mckenna Clark > “We have to be wary of all the voices in the noisy world, but we can always trust the prophet’s voice because God has lovingly promised us that He will never allow the prophet to lead us astray.” (Dec. 2018, Liahona Magazine)
Theodore M. Burton > “Men in all ranks on this earth and in the Church have fallen from grace, but the Lord will never permit the great prophet, our seer, and revelator, to fall or to lead the people astray. Before this could happen God must of necessity remove that man from the earth. There must be someone to whom the people can turn and trust, who can speak for God. God must have someone on earth who can point the way and say, ” This is true. ” How grateful, my brothers and sisters, we should be that God in the fulness of his grace has given us a living prophet to guide us to Him.” (1961 Conference Report)
Re: Elder Andersen Trusts the Arm of Flesh
Posted: November 7th, 2023, 10:03 am
by Ado
The whole twitter post is creepy and cultish. But the most interesting part is that he says "but even if not.." I find that so interesting that he would even suggest the possibility of "if not." And what if "even if not?" Well, then you can still rest assured that your fake prophet lived a great life as a good guy, so at the very least you can trust in him more than all the other good dudes. So even if he isn't a true prophet, you should trust him as a man. I mean, the fact that a self-identified apostle said all those words is astonishing to me. And people continue to fall for it. It gives me chills. What's the modern day equivalent to renting my clothes and putting on sack clock and ashes? I am in that kind of mourning.
Re: Elder Andersen Trusts the Arm of Flesh
Posted: November 7th, 2023, 10:09 am
by Ado
A Disciple wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 9:08 am
“We can win this war if everyone will follow the wise and thoughtful recommendations of medical experts and government leaders. ”--Russell M. Nelson
"There is no end to the adversary’s deceptions. Please be prepared. Never take counsel from those who do not believe." -- Russell M. Nelson
The cognitive dissonance displayed in these two statements is alarming and should warrant explanation from the man who spoke them.
What I find most astounding is the Lord himself warned his Saints. And yet the "prophets" and "leaders" of the Saints refuse to listen and refuse to follow the warning of what the Lord has spoken.
"Thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation." -- Section 89 of the Doctrine & Covenants
Great point. Don't take counsel from non believers, but do let them inject you with experimental things because you can trust their medical and political expertise. Hmmmm
Re: Elder Andersen Trusts the Arm of Flesh
Posted: November 7th, 2023, 10:25 am
by fractal_light_harvest
Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 9:35 am
Church quotes or material on the concept of Trust. See any patterns?
———
Neil Andersen > “A phrase I was very intrigued with from President Russell M Nelson’s recent talk in general conference was “seek guidance from voices you can trust.” Who could we trust more than President Nelson? Of course, he’s the Lord’s prophet—he’s the president of the Church—but even if he were not, what a life he has lived! I testify that President Russell M. Nelson is the Lord’s mouthpiece upon the earth today. He is the prophet of the living God.” (Twitter, Nov 5, 2023)
Russell Nelson > “…prophets, seers and revelators. There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." (Jan. 2022 European Area Devotional / Repeated Feb. 2022 California Area Conference. This is anti-Christian theology btw.)
Russell Nelson > “Never take counsel from those who do not believe. Seek guidance from voices you can trust. From prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost who will show unto you the things what ye should do.” (Oct. 2023 General Conference.)
Church Manual > “You can always trust the living prophets.” (True to the Faith)
Elder Haynie > “Knowing by revelation that there is a living prophet on the earth changes everything. It causes one to be uninterested in the debate about when is a prophet speaking as a prophet or whether one is ever justified in selective rejection of prophetic counsel. Such revealed knowledge invites one to trust the counsel of a living prophet, even if we do not fully understand it.” (April 2023)
Church Magzine > Trusting the Lord’s Power and Prophets (March 2023)
Church Magazine > Developing “Unshaken Faith” in Jesus Christ—and His Prophets (March 2023)
Church Magazine > Learning to put my trust in god and his prophet instead of myself (May 2022)
Church Magazine > Trust in the Prophet (March 2021)
Elder Oaks > “As servants of the Father and the Son, apostles and prophets teach and counsel as directed by the Holy Ghost…Their voices can be trusted.” (March 2020)
Church Magazine > We believe in following the prophet (June 2016)
Church News > Viewpoint: Trust in the prophets is trust in God (Oct. 2014)
FAIR Mormon > Trusting Imperfect Prophets (Dec. 2012)
General Conference > Obedience to the Prophets (Elder Costa, Oct. 2010)
General Conference > “May we have the wisdom to trust in and follow the counsel of the living prophets and apostles.” (Elder Duncan, Oct. 2010)
Student Manual > Trust the Prophet (Study Guide 2002)
Elder Schultz > ““Faith obedience” is a matter of trust. The question is simple: Do we trust our Heavenly Father? Do we trust our prophets? (April 2002)
Mckenna Clark > “We have to be wary of all the voices in the noisy world, but we can always trust the prophet’s voice because God has lovingly promised us that He will never allow the prophet to lead us astray.” (Dec. 2018, Liahona Magazine)
Theodore M. Burton > “Men in all ranks on this earth and in the Church have fallen from grace, but the Lord will never permit the great prophet, our seer, and revelator, to fall or to lead the people astray. Before this could happen God must of necessity remove that man from the earth. There must be someone to whom the people can turn and trust, who can speak for God. God must have someone on earth who can point the way and say, ” This is true. ” How grateful, my brothers and sisters, we should be that God in the fulness of his grace has given us a living prophet to guide us to Him.” (1961 Conference Report)
This is truly hard to read. This is one half-step away from all out idol worship imo.
Re: Elder Andersen Trusts the Arm of Flesh
Posted: November 7th, 2023, 10:29 am
by Reluctant Watchman
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 10:25 am
This is truly hard to read. This is one half-step away from all out idol worship imo.
Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Especially when you compare the scriptures. I honestly believe it is not part-way, but full-on idolatry.
Scriptural references to Trust:
Proverbs 3:5 > Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Psalm 56:4 > In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.
Psalm 91:2 > I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psalm 155:1 > They that trust in the Lord shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.
Isaiah 12:2 > Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Isaiah 26:4 > Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord JEHOVAH is everlasting strength
2 Samuel 22:3 > The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour…
JST Mark 9:44 > Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
1 Timothy 4:10 > For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
2 Nephi 3:34 > O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.
2 Nephi 28:31 > Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Mosiah 23:14 > And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.
Alma 5:13 > And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved.
Alma 36:3 > …for I do know that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day.
Mormon 9:20 > And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.
D&C 1:19 > The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh
The Book of Manti 3:22 > But behold, I did exhort the people to take the matter privately to the Peacemaker and rely upon that trust which they had in Him. For, we know that He will always make good the promise He made unto us. Yea, we know that by the power of the Holy Ghost we may ascertain the truth of all things. Wherefore, we did all take the matter individually to the Peacemaker in this manner.
The Book of Manti 13:4 > And now I give my last blessing and warning unto you who are my descendants. Remain faithful unto the statutes of the Peacemaker and remember Him in all that you do. Yea, sing praises unto Him in all things and render up all your pride. Call upon Him in all things and trust only to the administration of the Holy Ghost for a guide to truth.
Re: Elder Andersen Trusts the Arm of Flesh
Posted: November 7th, 2023, 10:36 am
by A Disciple
"Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost." --2 Nephi 28:31
The Lord's doctrine is clear: We only trust the words of a man inasmuch as those words are confirmed by the Holy Ghost. If we trust in a man and in the words of a man and that trust is not confirmed by the Spirit of Truth then we are cursed. We cannot fool ourselves thinking our trust in another person is worthy if we place that trust ahead of our trust in God. Well, we can fool ourselves, but God is not fooled.
The LDS church leaders have pulled a slight of hand. They claim that they and the Spirit of Truth are equals. President Nelson says: "From prophets, seers, and revelators and from the whisperings of the Holy Ghost" - putting on equal footing the church leaders and the Holy Ghost. But that is not the Lord's doctrine. The Lord's doctrine is the Spirit of Truth is supreme. His word is supreme. Trust in God is supreme. Prophets can prophecy but their words are only True as those teachings are confirmed by the Spirit of Truth.
I invite the First Presidency and the Quorum of 12 Apostles to study the scriptures and share their understanding of what the scriptures teach on how the Lord works through men to proclaim his Truth. In all cases the doctrine is clear: The Lord Speaks and His Word is Spoken by the Power of the Holy Ghost. Words not confirmed by the Power of the Holy Ghost are not the Words of God, but rather the philosophies of men. Observe that no where in scripture are the Saints of God taught to trust in man. In all cases we are taught to receive the Lord's Spirit and be guided by Him. The safety of our souls depends on this!
"For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day." -- Doctrine & Covenants 45:57
Re: Elder Andersen Trusts the Arm of Flesh
Posted: November 7th, 2023, 10:36 am
by fractal_light_harvest
Reluctant Watchman wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 10:29 am
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 7th, 2023, 10:25 am
This is truly hard to read. This is one half-step away from all out idol worship imo.
Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Especially when you compare the scriptures. I honestly believe it is not part-way, but full-on idolatry.
Scriptural references to Trust:
Proverbs 3:5 > Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Psalm 56:4 > In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.
Psalm 91:2 > I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psalm 155:1 > They that trust in the Lord shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.
Isaiah 12:2 > Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Isaiah 26:4 > Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord JEHOVAH is everlasting strength
2 Samuel 22:3 > The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour…
JST Mark 9:44 > Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
1 Timothy 4:10 > For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
2 Nephi 3:34 > O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.
2 Nephi 28:31 > Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.
Mosiah 23:14 > And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.
Alma 5:13 > And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved.
Alma 36:3 > …for I do know that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day.
Mormon 9:20 > And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.
D&C 1:19 > The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh
The Book of Manti 3:22 > But behold, I did exhort the people to take the matter privately to the Peacemaker and rely upon that trust which they had in Him. For, we know that He will always make good the promise He made unto us. Yea, we know that by the power of the Holy Ghost we may ascertain the truth of all things. Wherefore, we did all take the matter individually to the Peacemaker in this manner.
The Book of Manti 13:4 > And now I give my last blessing and warning unto you who are my descendants. Remain faithful unto the statutes of the Peacemaker and remember Him in all that you do. Yea, sing praises unto Him in all things and render up all your pride. Call upon Him in all things and trust only to the administration of the Holy Ghost for a guide to truth.
I think the corporate side of the church is gunning for unabashed idolatry more or less to maintain total image control and control of the money pile. But I think there are some courageous holdouts among the ranks. It doesn’t look good for them though is my honest *opinion*. The god of this world seems to have little time, so he has begun to rage. We will see who gets shaken free at the last moment and who has to reap the whirlwind. I hope to god it’s not me.