LDS Freedom Forum

I personally know seven people who have decided that Joseph Smith was a charlatan. Upon turning on Joseph, Each and every one of them has lurched leftward politically speaking. Spending time on various forums where ex-mos hang out seems to confirm this as a larger trend.

I can’t think of a single example I have seen of someone who disavows Joseph and subsequently lurches rightward politically. Why is this? What happens to people that causes them to turn to the left after leaving the church?

There is that concept that what you don't like in someone else is a flaw you have within yourself that you have yet to accept. It's easy to worry about other people's flaws. I think it is against the commandments to harden your heart towards other people. If we show mercy and love to others, we will also have mercy towards ourselves. So when you can't be merciful to others it makes you double minded because we often see things in others that are things we don't like about ourselves but haven't associated the flaw with self yet, it's still unconscious. I think it's ok to recognize someone may have certain traits, but it's when you harden your heart instead of extending mercy and compassion that it becomes your own flaw. And that is easier said than done. I know I do it sometimes.

When I was first married my husband played excessive video games and it really bothered me. It's like after marriage he regressed a bit. I remember going to church, and during relief society the Holy Spirit told me that it doesn't matter what his sins are, if I don't love him because of his sins, that's also a sin. The Holy Spirit encouraged me to practice having love in my heart for my husband in spite of his behavior, and every time he played video games, to worry about my own sin of over-eating instead of what he was doing wrong.

Two years into our marriage I was boxing some things up, and my husband told me to box up his play station. I was flabbergasted. My jaw dropped. He doesn't really play video games a lot anymore. But I still struggle with over-eating.

Juliet wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 8:25 pm There is that concept that what you don't like in someone else is a flaw you have within yourself that you have yet to accept. It's easy to worry about other people's flaws. I think it is against the commandments to harden your heart towards other people. If we show mercy and love to others, we will also have mercy towards ourselves. So when you can't be merciful to others it makes you double minded because we often see things in others that are things we don't like about ourselves but haven't associated the flaw with self yet, it's still unconscious.

I can’t tell if this is directed at me or an attempt to answer the question. I’m just curious what explains the phenomena.

jack wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 8:30 pm

Juliet wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 8:25 pm There is that concept that what you don't like in someone else is a flaw you have within yourself that you have yet to accept. It's easy to worry about other people's flaws. I think it is against the commandments to harden your heart towards other people. If we show mercy and love to others, we will also have mercy towards ourselves. So when you can't be merciful to others it makes you double minded because we often see things in others that are things we don't like about ourselves but haven't associated the flaw with self yet, it's still unconscious.

I can’t tell if this is directed at me or an attempt to answer the question. I’m just curious what explains the phenomena.

This is not directed at you at all, I am attempting to explain the phenomena based on my own experience. I think it's a good question and an interesting observation to discuss.

It's possible that those people whom you are talking about may have considered themselves conservative when they still believed in Joseph Smith- and then when they disavowed him they felt the need to change other beliefs as well.

jack wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 8:22 pm I personally know seven people who have decided that Joseph Smith was a charlatan. Upon turning on Joseph, Each and every one of them has lurched leftward politically speaking. Spending time on various forums where ex-mos hang out seems to confirm this as a larger trend.

I can’t think of a single example I have seen of someone who disavows Joseph and subsequently lurches rightward politically. Why is this? What happens to people that causes them to turn to the left after leaving the church?

They moved left first, and then disavowed JS

One of the individuals that I know was even the local republican precinct chair before having his faith crisis. Talk about a turnaround!

nightlight wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 8:49 pm

jack wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 8:22 pm I personally know seven people who have decided that Joseph Smith was a charlatan. Upon turning on Joseph, Each and every one of them has lurched leftward politically speaking. Spending time on various forums where ex-mos hang out seems to confirm this as a larger trend.

I can’t think of a single example I have seen of someone who disavows Joseph and subsequently lurches rightward politically. Why is this? What happens to people that causes them to turn to the left after leaving the church?

They moved left first, and then disavowed JS

That interesting

jack wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 8:22 pm I personally know seven people who have decided that Joseph Smith was a charlatan. Upon turning on Joseph, Each and every one of them has lurched leftward politically speaking. Spending time on various forums where ex-mos hang out seems to confirm this as a larger trend.

I can’t think of a single example I have seen of someone who disavows Joseph and subsequently lurches rightward politically. Why is this? What happens to people that causes them to turn to the left after leaving the church?

Satan causes people to turn to man, the left worships “man”. Separation of church and state created state as a religion.

People are social creatures.
They want to fit in with the tribal gestalt.
Our failed Civ is run by leechers
Everything, every*one*, will be “left” by default.
The “right” is the Outer Party.
Low-status. Why be so? Mainly love of truth.
Lose sub-tribe: very dishearty
So join up with main tribe’s the straty most sooth.

Juliet wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 8:25 pm Two years into our marriage I was boxing some things up, and my husband told me to box up his play station. I was flabbergasted. My jaw dropped. He doesn't really play video games a lot anymore. But I still struggle with over-eating.

Food freedom is possible: eat plenty of saturated fat and give up all sugars and sugar-substitutes and hardly any PUFAs.

I did this experiment on myself a second time in August, and it worked just as it had two years before. After two weeks, I felt food freedom once more, as I had in 2021. I was able to go 12 hours or more without having a desire to eat.

I'm starting to do it again, after just getting back from an extended holiday when I couldn't control my diet.

jack wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 8:22 pm I personally know seven people who have decided that Joseph Smith was a charlatan. Upon turning on Joseph, Each and every one of them has lurched leftward politically speaking. Spending time on various forums where ex-mos hang out seems to confirm this as a larger trend.

I can’t think of a single example I have seen of someone who disavows Joseph and subsequently lurches rightward politically. Why is this? What happens to people that causes them to turn to the left after leaving the church?

Personally, I'm seeing the opposite. People who remain faithful in the church are lurching leftward at light speed along with church leaders. Those who question Joseph Smith, are holding the line on conservative political "think". That's been my recent experience with hundreds of members.

jack wrote: ↑November 4th, 2023, 8:22 pm I personally know seven people who have decided that Joseph Smith was a charlatan. Upon turning on Joseph, Each and every one of them has lurched leftward politically speaking. Spending time on various forums where ex-mos hang out seems to confirm this as a larger trend.

I can’t think of a single example I have seen of someone who disavows Joseph and subsequently lurches rightward politically. Why is this? What happens to people that causes them to turn to the left after leaving the church?

Sometimes they can become very right-wing Christian but they can become progressive as they become obsessed with the r/Mormon/John Dehlin crowd to get food (and find community) to feed their hate for everything related to Mormonism.

Maybe “progressive” isn’t the right word. Maybe “altruistic” would be more accurate since it is the opposite of egotism and, therefore, tribalism.

“What is tribalism but a collective version of ego? It’s defensive. It builds walls. It refuses connection.” ~ Michael Pollan

Egotism and tribalism involve the objectifying of “the other” - which can include nature or people of different faiths, races and political views.

As people move toward higher awareness, they discard the false constructs of ego…which include a lot of what Joseph Smith sold.

So, maybe Nightlight is correct: they become “progressive” (other-speak for altruism) first and *then* discard Joseph

For these types of people, it usually is because they loved Babylon more than the gospel in the first place. Throwing Joseph under the bus was the only way they could justify their new lifestyle.

Unfortunately, the LDS Church makes it easy for them to come to this conclusion, because it is taught: "It is all true, or none of it is true."

Your first mistake is referring to such folk as "progressive". By using that label you support them in the notion that their programme is a form of progress.

Niemand wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 12:55 pm Your first mistake is referring to such folk as "progressive". By using that label you support them in the notion that their programme is a form of progress.

Progress towards hell on Earth.

I have three family members who left the church and lurched left around the same time as far as I could tell. I don’t know what came first, lurching left or leaving the church.

One thing I noticed is that they basically had no foundation in the Bible. Such folly. Such folly to put the BoM and other modern scripture on such a high pedestal compared to the Bible. The Bible is an essential witness. And if you find yourself separating from the church and its truth claims and scriptures, what do you have to fall back on that still maintains your testimony in Christ? The Bible offers a clear defense against many of the secular lies of our time that so many former Mormons get sucked into, like organic evolution, the flood being an allegory, etc. These Biblical truths can support and sustain a person through a transition like leaving the church. They don’t have to leave Christ, too. They don’t have to lurch leftward. They don’t have to sup at Babylon’s unholy sacrament table.

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 12:58 pm

Niemand wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 12:55 pm Your first mistake is referring to such folk as "progressive". By using that label you support them in the notion that their programme is a form of progress.

Progress towards hell on Earth.

That's regress rather than progress.

Niemand wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 1:30 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 12:58 pm

Niemand wrote: ↑November 5th, 2023, 12:55 pm Your first mistake is referring to such folk as "progressive". By using that label you support them in the notion that their programme is a form of progress.

Progress towards hell on Earth.

That's regress rather than progress.

So how is it possible for those that "can never lead the church astray" be fooled by something so obvious?

What is it that makes them think that it is truly progress and not regression? I'm sure they also think of themselves as "progressive".

Prophets typically go up against the religious establishment because those institutions manipulate religion for political reasons and financial gain. Joseph Smith, on the other hand, simply carved out his own slice of the religion profit pie.

A spiritual awakening is marked by the re-connection between social justice and moral development. The Restoration, on the other hand, does not do this, but perhaps even further entrenches social injustice.

Spirituality begins with awe and wonder at creation. Mormonism falsely boasts of dominating creation.

Behind progressivism is a determination that we must do better.

In Christianity there are three types of men,
Those that have been brought up from the cradle in the tradition, so oft have a dead form of religion, having never had an experience of their own with Jesus of Nazerath, they just simply go along in the tradition, not as a living dynamic faith, but simply following a tradition thru a habit taught from the cradle, yet deep down having no witness of its truth for themselves. He is the lifeless part of Christianity
Now the second type of Christian is the man that has been brought up from the cradle in the traditions of the faith and at some point has had an encounter with the Lord Jesus and so he has a living dynamic faith in the Lord......He is the very heart of Christianity.
The third type of Christian is the man not brought up in the faith of Christianity yet at some point in his life had a very dramatic and wonderous encounter with Jesus. He is the very lifeblood of Christianity..........

I have met men that were brought up from the cradle in christianity that never had an experience with Jesus and sincerely and with great honesty declare that though they preached from the pulpit the Bible, they did not know it was true, nor did they believe in God, or were unsure, them preaching was simply a tradition, a job, like a history teacher, nothing more ....
However I have never met any man whom has an experience with Jesus of Nazerath, wether that encounter be great or small deny his Risen Lord, or doubt him......Even amongst those that have fallen away thru divers temptations I have noticed they still will readily attest to the reality of Jesus.

(While I wouldn’t apply this brush to everyone that completely “disavow Joseph”, this has been my observation of those I know first-hand/personally…)

Varying degrees of secularism and hedonism.

The degree that one leans left is directly proportional to the degree that one worships satan. The church is left and so satanists can feel at home there. It is, after all, the satanists that the church donate to, partner with, and promote. Of course, one will be at odds with the other. One can't hate and love Jesus at the same time. Most people that are referred to as leaving the church actually did not. They simply chose Christ over satan and if the church does so also, they will continue to attend. If one has done no prayerful consideration, or attempted to find the actual truth, Joesph Smith can appear to be a bit out there by common standards. From there to full satanism is a short trip.

So here is a funny story. My grandsons are twins. I ordained them to Teacher the same day. The mother of their step dad, attended the service. After the ordination, she was asked by the Bishop to say a few words. She was in her 60s, born LDS, attended all of her life. I was embarrassed for her. Her words were of no value, added nothing, did not mention Jesus or a testimony, may as well have been gibberish. So later, I asked my daughter why the woman even bothered to attend church, since she obviously had zero belief in it? Her husband was a union boss and so satanism ruled the day. My daughter said church was a social thing for her. So in 60 years of life, living very comfortably, it never even occurred to this woman to find out what truth really was. What a waste of a human life!