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What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 12:48 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost thread made me want to see what the consensus was on this topic. Again, I’m a numbers and logic guy (not that I’m good at these things necessarily but they tend to be the tools I *personally* reach for first to understand a topic).
So the thing I’m trying to see is what peoples’ conception or understanding of the godhead is. I like the info from polls *personally* since they help to lay out what all the most likely possibilities are and see where people are at and why they think what they do and find trends in beliefs or thinking.
So my question is — what is the nature of the godhead? I have *several* more poll questions stewing in my head so hopefully this isn’t becoming annoying. None of the polls are meant to put any one idea on blast or “prove” a point. I just really do believe statistics are useful for understanding things but it can also be abused. Sorry for the long descriptions I’m trying to classify all the main beliefs on this topic.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 1:10 pm
by Telavian
It is hard for me to pick an option. I think "alt-LDS" is the closest however I don't fully agree with that.
The Father is God who is a spirit that exists outside of our reality.
The Son is Jesus who is the Father, made flesh, in our reality.
The Holy Ghost is the essence of all creation and the fundamental force that connects everything.
If God works with some kind of intelligent water-based life on Europa, which supposedly exists, then he won't be appearing as Jesus. He would be appearing in whatever form they are and communicating however they do.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 1:26 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
Telavian wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 1:10 pm
It is hard for me to pick an option. I think "alt-LDS" is the closest however I don't fully agree with that.
The Father is God who is a spirit that exists outside of our reality.
The Son is Jesus who is the Father, made flesh, in our reality.
The Holy Ghost is the essence of all creation and the fundamental force that connects everything.
If God works with some kind of intelligent water-based life on Europa, which supposedly exists, then he won't be appearing as Jesus. He would be appearing in whatever form they are and communicating however they do.
Interesting. I have a feeling the hybrid view may win out since this is so nuanced a topic based on your response. It is so far.
What are you saying exactly about Europa? Is that a recent discovery or something? Do you have a take on a heavenly mother or no if you don’t mind me asking?
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 1:42 pm
by Telavian
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 1:26 pm
Interesting. I have a feeling the hybrid view may win out since this is so nuanced a topic based on your response. It is so far.
What are you saying exactly about Europa? Is that a recent discovery or something? Do you have a take on a heavenly mother or no if you don’t mind me asking?
Europa is just a random example. Scientists have long surmised life exists there under the surface. Supposedly the water is relatively warm, but encased in ice.
I don't think there is a Heavenly Mother and question why there is or needs to be. What does she do? Is she an eternal baby factory?
Our current two gender system is super imposed on God because that is what we understand. For instance, what is a Cheribum? Are there male and female cheribum? What if God is one?
There is a lot we don't know. However, we have essentially given God human thoughts and feelings just like the Greeks and Romans did to their gods.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 1:46 pm
by Wolfwoman
I believe what the lectures on faith teaches. The Godhead consists of two personages, the Father and the Son, plus the Holy Spirit which is the mind of God.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 1:53 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
Telavian wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 1:42 pm
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 1:26 pm
Interesting. I have a feeling the hybrid view may win out since this is so nuanced a topic based on your response. It is so far.
What are you saying exactly about Europa? Is that a recent discovery or something? Do you have a take on a heavenly mother or no if you don’t mind me asking?
Europa is just a random example. Scientists have long surmised life exists there under the surface. Supposedly the water is relatively warm, but encased in ice.
I don't think there is a Heavenly Mother and question why there is or needs to be. What does she do? Is she an eternal baby factory?
Our current two gender system is super imposed on God because that is what we understand. For instance, what is a Cheribum? Are there male and female cheribum? What if God is one?
There is a lot we don't know. However, we have essentially given God human thoughts and feelings just like the Greeks and Romans did to their gods.
Hmm. So you believe that God would express or incarnate himself based on the conditions of a given planet? Is that what you mean?
I don’t know if there needs to be or not tbh. But if people see God as “male” then him having a female counterpart does bear some logical semblance. Do you see God as neutral or genderless or as “male”?
I think there is a resurgence of the heavenly mother concept in lds offshoots or some nuanced members beliefs.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 1:55 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
Wolfwoman wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 1:46 pm
I believe what the lectures on faith teaches. The Godhead consists of two personages, the Father and the Son, plus the Holy Spirit which is the mind of God.
This also makes the most sense to *me* currently based on my understanding of the Book of Mormon and the lectures. It seems like “good” doctrine to me but I’m open to other views still. One of my problems is that I tend to be too “open” but it can also be a pro.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 2:13 pm
by Telavian
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 1:55 pm
This also makes the most sense to *me* currently based on my understanding of the Book of Mormon and the lectures. It seems like “good” doctrine to me but I’m open to other views still. One of my problems is that I tend to be too “open” but it can also be a pro.
I like the Lectures on Faith also and heavily use that for my own understanding. It is slightly confusing though.
It describes a Father of sprit and a Son of flesh. What does this mean specifically?
It describes them both as being in the Godhead. What does this mean specifically in relation to the previous question?
The Holy Ghost is pretty clear to me.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 2:23 pm
by Telavian
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 1:53 pm
Hmm. So you believe that God would express or incarnate himself based on the conditions of a given planet? Is that what you mean?
I don’t know if there needs to be or not tbh. But if people see God as “male” then him having a female counterpart does bear some logical semblance. Do you see God as neutral or genderless or as “male”?
I think there is a resurgence of the heavenly mother concept in lds offshoots or some nuanced members beliefs.
Yes that is essentially what I mean. A lot of people have glommed on the Heavenly Mother bandwagon and I don't blame them. I used to think the Holy Ghost was our Heavenly Mother, because of the feminine nature of what the Holy Ghost does. However upon reflection it doesn't really make sense. Why should the Holy Ghost be able to do something that God can't? When the Holy Ghost gets a body then is God limited again?
What would it look like if God appeared as a women to the Jews or to Joseph? How would people receive God differently than they did already?
How would people receive God if he appeared as a multi-dimensional phase shifting blob?
I think it makes some sense to make God like us physically. However ultimately, I think you ascend to a certain point then physical realities just don't make any sense any longer.
What do 2 arms mean when you can manipulate things with just a thought?
What do 2 legs mean when you can move to any point in existence instantly?
What does a chest cavity mean when you no longer have a beating heart or lungs to breath?
What does a brain mean when you have access to all knowledge instantly?
If God has a body, then either he has pointless organs filling it or it is empty.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 2:50 pm
by Original_Intent
I believe in a Heavenly Father and Mother, resurrected and perfected beings.
I believe Heavenly Father and Mother companionships embark on a mission of sorts to the intelligences.
Intelligences I believe are essentially photons. They can exhibit as either waves or particles. They have agency.
The Father and Mother pair essentially teach the intelligences "You can become as we are." Perhaps details on how that happens.
Intelligences who chose to follow become spirit children of that set of Heavenly Parents, just as when we chose to follow Christ and actually do follow Him, He becomes our Heavenly Father. Christ was the intelligence who perfectly followed Father in all things, was willing to sacrifice all things and thus following Him is exactly the same thing as following Father, but they are individuals.
Spirit children are not begotten in the sense of HF and HM having sex, gestating and birthing a spirit.
HF and HM DO have sex, and they beget immortal children. Their children are born into the same state as the parents aside from the fact that they are not resurrected as they have not experienced mortality. These children serve as Adams and Eves.
Every intelligence that advances to the point of a mortal, human life is open to communication from both good and evil. When communing with the mind of God and following it, we become a Holy Ghost. When we receive the Baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost, we can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, or in other words be in constant communication with the Mind of God. At this point evil can only influence us if we willfully sin against the light and subject ourselves to the influence of evil. This is NOT Son of Perdition, it simply means that we have returned to a state of evil having some power over us.
The purpose of all intelligences is to become as God is and repeat this process with intelligences.
It goes without saying that much of this is conjecture on my part, and there are some points that I am quite sure about and others that it is just the best I have until further light and knowledge is received.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 2:50 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
Telavian wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 2:13 pm
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 1:55 pm
This also makes the most sense to *me* currently based on my understanding of the Book of Mormon and the lectures. It seems like “good” doctrine to me but I’m open to other views still. One of my problems is that I tend to be too “open” but it can also be a pro.
I like the Lectures on Faith also and heavily use that for my own understanding. It is slightly confusing though.
It describes a Father of sprit and a Son of flesh. What does this mean specifically?
It describes them both as being in the Godhead. What does this mean specifically in relation to the previous question?
The Holy Ghost is pretty clear to me.
The main reason I initially liked the lectures was also because of its no-nonsense take on the Holy Ghost that seemed unusually clear to me. It fit better with my personal understanding of the Book of Mormon than the trad lds view.
My *current personal* belief is that spirit is a form of matter or dimensionality that is more refined or pure than “fallen” matter. It is probably base matter and “eternal” for all practical intents. I believe Joseph said this outright at one point. God’s body or being is made purely out of this matter. Flesh is influenced by Spirit but not “one” with it. Jesus was able to overcome the flesh he incarnated in and subject it to spirit making him like the Father. That is my current understanding of that part of the lectures in a super small nut shell.
I have to admit the most clear interpretation of this was from Joseph and from the Snuffer crowd though I don’t believe *all* of them believe this. The doctrine of Christ crowd is good for understanding the baptism of fire/Holy Ghost but I haven’t seen them comment on this topic personally. I have seen *some* polygamists take this view but it was only half developed when I heard it.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 3:00 pm
by Luke
Adam-God and polygamist view.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 3:04 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
Luke wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 3:00 pm
Adam-God and polygamist view.
Haha! Somehow I’m not very surprised by this! But I do believe it’s a pretty prevalent interpretation or belief on this forum which I can respect, depending on the exact nature of interpretation and practice. I am against the Warren Jeffs type application *personally* for I hope obvious reasons. But I don’t believe this is representative of your average or even most polygamists generally.
Based on some of the historical research that has come out recently I do believe monogamy may be a *safer* bet likely but again, I think we’re all adults here (atleast mostly…..
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 3:20 pm
by Telavian
Original_Intent wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 2:50 pm
HF and HM DO have sex, and they beget immortal children. Their children are born into the same state as the parents aside from the fact that they are not resurrected as they have not experienced mortality. These children serve as Adams and Eves.
This is literally a pyramid scheme.
Suppose everyone needs to be an Adam and Eve as you suggested.
Suppose there are 1000 men/women pairs born on each planet.
This would mean there would need to be 1000^1 people to satisfy the first level, 1000^2 to satisfy the second, and so on.
There are about 10^80 atoms in the observable universe, therefore after about 30 levels then you run out of observable matter.
I think its safe to say we all don't need to be an Adam, a Christ, and an Holy Ghost.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 3:21 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
Original_Intent wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 2:50 pm
I believe in a Heavenly Father and Mother, resurrected and perfected beings.
I believe Heavenly Father and Mother companionships embark on a mission of sorts to the intelligences.
Intelligences I believe are essentially photons. They can exhibit as either waves or particles. They have agency.
The Father and Mother pair essentially teach the intelligences "You can become as we are." Perhaps details on how that happens.
Intelligences who chose to follow become spirit children of that set of Heavenly Parents, just as when we chose to follow Christ and actually do follow Him, He becomes our Heavenly Father. Christ was the intelligence who perfectly followed Father in all things, was willing to sacrifice all things and thus following Him is exactly the same thing as following Father, but they are individuals.
Spirit children are not begotten in the sense of HF and HM having sex, gestating and birthing a spirit.
HF and HM DO have sex, and they beget immortal children. Their children are born into the same state as the parents aside from the fact that they are not resurrected as they have not experienced mortality. These children serve as Adams and Eves.
Every intelligence that advances to the point of a mortal, human life is open to communication from both good and evil. When communing with the mind of God and following it, we become a Holy Ghost. When we receive the Baptism of Fire and the Holy Ghost, we can have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, or in other words be in constant communication with the Mind of God. At this point evil can only influence us if we willfully sin against the light and subject ourselves to the influence of evil. This is NOT Son of Perdition, it simply means that we have returned to a state of evil having some power over us.
The purpose of all intelligences is to become as God is and repeat this process with intelligences.
It goes without saying that much of this is conjecture on my part, and there are some points that I am quite sure about and others that it is just the best I have until further light and knowledge is received.
This is a fairly thorough explication and seems to be internally consistent. I appreciate the consistency and that it makes sense more or less on its face. I agree personally with a number of your points. The photons bit is interesting and maybe somewhat novel which is interesting. Had never considered it before now but I believe god is highly correlated with light in this dimension and probably generally.
Intelligences who chose to follow become spirit children of that set of Heavenly Parents, just as when we chose to follow Christ and actually do follow Him, He becomes our Heavenly Father. Christ was the intelligence who perfectly followed Father in all things, was willing to sacrifice all things and thus following Him is exactly the same thing as following Father, but they are individuals.
I believe this or true more or less and sums up my take *personally* pretty well. Well stated imo.
I do believe God has agency in one sense but it is on a scale or plane that would be virtually inconceivable for a mortal or someone with a veiled understanding. All of creation is dependent on his power and wisdom.
Logically if we conceive god as “male” it makes sense he’d have a “female” counterpart if this creation is based on heaven’s. Again the most thorough explanation of this I’ve seen *personally* is from the Snuffer crowd but I believe there are others with different views on it too that are worth looking at though it seems highly variable and personal at that point.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 3:26 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
Telavian wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 3:20 pm
Original_Intent wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 2:50 pm
HF and HM DO have sex, and they beget immortal children. Their children are born into the same state as the parents aside from the fact that they are not resurrected as they have not experienced mortality. These children serve as Adams and Eves.
This is literally a pyramid scheme.
Suppose everyone needs to be an Adam and Eve as you suggested.
Suppose there are 1000 men/women pairs born on each planet.
This would mean there would need to be 1000^1 people to satisfy the first level, 1000^2 to satisfy the second, and so on.
There are about 10^80 atoms in the observable universe, therefore after about 30 levels then you run out of observable matter.
I think its safe to say we all don't need to be an Adam, a Christ, and an Holy Ghost.
This is one part that was not clear to me fully. But I did find the response quite logical generally.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 3:36 pm
by Telavian
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 3:26 pm
This is one part that was not clear to me fully. But I did find the response quite logical generally.
Until God tell us directly or we get more scripture, then anything beyond this life is pure speculation. The scriptures are silent for some reason about many things.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 4:06 pm
by Original_Intent
Telavian wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 3:20 pm
Original_Intent wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 2:50 pm
HF and HM DO have sex, and they beget immortal children. Their children are born into the same state as the parents aside from the fact that they are not resurrected as they have not experienced mortality. These children serve as Adams and Eves.
This is literally a pyramid scheme.
Suppose everyone needs to be an Adam and Eve as you suggested.
I didn't suggest that in the least.
Suppose there are 1000 men/women pairs born on each planet.
This would mean there would need to be 1000^1 people to satisfy the first level, 1000^2 to satisfy the second, and so on.
There are about 10^80 atoms in the observable universe, therefore after about 30 levels then you run out of observable matter.
I think its safe to say we all don't need to be an Adam, a Christ, and an Holy Ghost.
You inferred something that I didn't even imply, let alone say.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 4:11 pm
by Original_Intent
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 3:26 pm
Telavian wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 3:20 pm
Original_Intent wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 2:50 pm
HF and HM DO have sex, and they beget immortal children. Their children are born into the same state as the parents aside from the fact that they are not resurrected as they have not experienced mortality. These children serve as Adams and Eves.
This is literally a pyramid scheme.
Suppose everyone needs to be an Adam and Eve as you suggested.
Suppose there are 1000 men/women pairs born on each planet.
This would mean there would need to be 1000^1 people to satisfy the first level, 1000^2 to satisfy the second, and so on.
There are about 10^80 atoms in the observable universe, therefore after about 30 levels then you run out of observable matter.
I think its safe to say we all don't need to be an Adam, a Christ, and an Holy Ghost.
This is one part that was not clear to me fully. But I did find the response quite logical generally.
All I meant was that when Heavenly parents they beget immortal children with physical bodies that will never die unless they partake of mortality. All descendants of Adam and Eve thus have HF and HM as literal ancestors, but not alll intelligences must become literal Adam and Eve (although the temple tells us to consider ourselves AS IF we were Adam and Eve - and instruction that I think many mistakenly think is meant only for the temple session.)
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 4:12 pm
by Telavian
Original_Intent wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 4:06 pm
You inferred something that I didn't even imply, let alone say.
Yes you did. We can add a disclaimer which I thought was implied and understood.
"These children serve as Adams and Eves."
Suppose everyone,
who wants to progress and be like God, needs to be an Adam and Eve as you suggested.
Based on this then you could have 1 billion people per planet, but still only 1000 who follow the same model.
Therefore nothing is lost and everything still applies.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 4:20 pm
by Original_Intent
Telavian wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 4:12 pm
Original_Intent wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 4:06 pm
You inferred something that I didn't even imply, let alone say.
Yes you did. We can add a disclaimer which I thought was implied and understood.
"These children serve as Adams and Eves."
Suppose everyone,
who wants to progress and be like God, needs to be an Adam and Eve as you suggested.
Based on this then you could have 1 billion people per planet, but still only 1000 who follow the same model.
Therefore nothing is lost and everything still applies.
Again, I didn't suggest that, because I don't believe it.
I said HF and HM have sex and create physical, immortal children - not "spirit children".
These relatively few immortal children are placed upon earths as Adams and Eves and they and their descendants produce bodies for the other intelligences which LDS refer to as spirit children. So ALL do eventually become literal physical descendants of God, thru Adam and Eve. But virtually all are NOT born of heavenly parents in the pre-existence.
I obviously wasn't clear, but I would not suggest something that I don't believe to be correct.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 4:23 pm
by fractal_light_harvest
Original_Intent wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 4:20 pm
Telavian wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 4:12 pm
Original_Intent wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 4:06 pm
You inferred something that I didn't even imply, let alone say.
Yes you did. We can add a disclaimer which I thought was implied and understood.
"These children serve as Adams and Eves."
Suppose everyone,
who wants to progress and be like God, needs to be an Adam and Eve as you suggested.
Based on this then you could have 1 billion people per planet, but still only 1000 who follow the same model.
Therefore nothing is lost and everything still applies.
Again, I didn't suggest that, because I don't believe it.
I said HF and HM have sex and create physical, immortal children - not "spirit children".
These relatively few immortal children are placed upon earths as Adams and Eves and they and their descendants produce bodies for the other intelligences which LDS refer to as spirit children. So ALL do eventually become literal physical descendants of God, thru Adam and Eve. But virtually all are NOT born of heavenly parents in the pre-existence.
I obviously wasn't clear, but I would not suggest something that I don't believe to be correct.
I can see this as being logically feasible and I’m not aware of any scripture that outright proves it wrong *personally* at this time.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 4:33 pm
by Telavian
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 4:23 pm
I can see this as being logically feasible and I’m not aware of any scripture that outright proves it wrong *personally* at this time.
There is also nothing that suggests it in the slightest.
It does however make far more sense than requiring everyone to go to every major step like Adam -> Christ -> Father.
This would mean that Adam is "greater" than Christ though since Adam is a literal offspring, correct?
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 4:33 pm
by Original_Intent
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 3:21 pm
This is a fairly thorough explication and seems to be internally consistent. I appreciate the consistency and that it makes sense more or less on its face. I agree personally with a number of your points. The photons bit is interesting and maybe somewhat novel which is interesting. Had never considered it before now but I believe god is highly correlated with light in this dimension and probably generally.
Thank you. I think consistency is very important, most of our failings on this world is due to a lack of consistency, or in other words, integrity. Our economics is based on one set of rules for some people and another set of rules for others. Much of our politics has degenerated to the same. The beauty of celestial laws is integrity. Now, because I have striven for consistency does not make it true, and I would guess that I am either a little or a lot "off target" on a lot of this, and I look forward to not seeing thru a glass darkly, as it were, and finding out how the big picture actually works. BUT until then I have a model that serves as a placeholder for the truth for me until I receive it.
Intelligences who chose to follow become spirit children of that set of Heavenly Parents, just as when we chose to follow Christ and actually do follow Him, He becomes our Heavenly Father. Christ was the intelligence who perfectly followed Father in all things, was willing to sacrifice all things and thus following Him is exactly the same thing as following Father, but they are individuals.
I believe this or true more or less and sums up my take *personally* pretty well. Well stated imo.
I do believe God has agency in one sense but it is on a scale or plane that would be virtually inconceivable for a mortal or someone with a veiled understanding. All of creation is dependent on his power and wisdom.
Logically if we conceive god as “male” it makes sense he’d have a “female” counterpart if this creation is based on heaven’s. Again the most thorough explanation of this I’ve seen *personally* is from the Snuffer crowd but I believe there are others with different views on it too that are worth looking at though it seems highly variable and personal at that point.
Thanks again for your thoughts. If you see problems with my ideas, it is a favor you do me to point them out, not something for me to be upset about.
Re: What is the Nature of God
Posted: November 1st, 2023, 4:36 pm
by Original_Intent
Telavian wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 4:33 pm
fractal_light_harvest wrote: ↑November 1st, 2023, 4:23 pm
I can see this as being logically feasible and I’m not aware of any scripture that outright proves it wrong *personally* at this time.
There is also nothing that suggests it in the slightest.
It does however make far more sense than requiring everyone to go to every major step like Adam -> Christ -> Father.
This would mean that Adam is "greater" than Christ though since Adam is a literal offspring, correct?
Christ is also a literal offspring, although only half-immortal as opposed to Adam's state before the fall. With the fall, Adam was destined to die.
Christ needed this (half mortal, half immortal status so that He could not be killed without willingly laying down His life.
Also, Christ, not Adam/Michael was the most perfectly aligned with Heavenly Father's will, to the point that they are One. Not one single being but so perfectly united that one will ALWAYS do what the other would in a given situation.